Nihilism, dialogos, and the serious play of religion w/ Daniel Zaruba - Voices with Vervaeke

[@JohannesNiederhauser]

It is great to see you both together. Excellent dialogos. Hope there will be many more such dialogues.

[@zeb358]

So rare to see heavy weights like your good selves in the thoughts of the Koyoto School engage on KZbin. These are nuggets of gold to be found and I very much look forward to finding you both doing this again and thank you for bringing these ideas to the fore front of our minds.

[@leedufour]

Thanks Daniel and John!

[@christopherhamilton3621]

That excitement between 54 & 59 minutes was pretty awesome! Gems all over the place…

[@jgarciajr82]

For me the feeling of gratitude leads to love. Being reminded of what I have makes me grateful and through that cultivates love. Through that I remember God.

[@forecast_hinderer]

It was indeed entirely like music 🙏🏼 With Hal and Burt style key changes to leave you wanting more. Walk the Way You Talk sprang to mind.

[@alisaruddell3484]

What an exquisitely beautiful conversation. I was deeply touched by Daniel’s description of the tea ceremony, his reference to St. Francis of Assisi’s “Brother Sun, Sister Moon” canticle, and his metaphor of Agape creating a “playground” in which people can come together for transformative “serious play.” All these ideas together explain in part what I have found sadly lacking in my Protestant “low-liturgy, high-dogma” background. Of all places, churches ought to be agapic spaces that afford real dialogic connection and serious play… but there are too many institutional imperatives and political incentives in the way, which make us batten down the hatches, and keep people stuck in Sunday-School-answers, untouched, un-transformed, unseen, and lonely. It breaks my heart. “I wish I understood Love better.” Me too, John.

[@zappzapp00]

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful comment, Alisa, I appreciate it a lot.

[@matfar100]

Beautifully said

[@christopherhamilton3621]

Oh, well said. Very well said….

[@Flightofphenomena]

Wow your thoughts on insight reminded me of the process of discovering new musical ideas. Often, it’s the mistakes-or say, the negation of theoretical competence- sort of mixed in with my baked proficiency, where I get the new ideas, or insights. Sure occasionally a great melody comes to me, but more often than not you fumble around for them.

[@annenicholsonmbtp]

I’d like to hear a dialog between John and Mark Solms the neuropsychoanalyst. It’s time to bring affective and cognitive neuroscience together.

[@mediocrates3416]

I suggest driving function for affective and cortical transfer function for the subjective aspect of cogitation.

[@christopherhamilton3621]

I’d love to see & hear that unfold….❤️

[@mediocrates3416]

Heidegger has a takeaway: ready-to-hand/present-at-hand. It's an important and transformative distinction... and a tad ironic that it came from where it did, given your comments about him and fascism. Nietzche's takeaway was will-to-power and, Frankl's was will-to-meaning: if you let Nietzche's "power" include Frankl's "meaning", we're good; done, and *we* did it. Rest in peace; Heidegger, Nietzche, and Frankl.

[@delmerwilson7890]

Any chance we could get a list of 5 books you would take to the moon? I would love that hahaha. Thanks for your work

[@bradrandel1408]

Thank you so much both of you what a great discussion! What about ajata I wish it would’ve come up in this discussion, oh well…

[@mediocrates3416]

Dharma vs. karma as real things are relevant to the notion of logos: logos is by dharma; karma impeeds logos.

[@fukkyouthatswhy]

i see your 2 week break from KZbin has served as a disruptive strategy, this dialogue has been the most coherent to grasp for me so far, now i can engage in a much better dialogue with my friends as well. thanks john, for everything. :)

[@veranaessens8592]

1.10 hour in: not knowing when to stop or being able to stop. In between desire and ability, those are mixed up so easily.

[@_ARCATEC_]

7:52 ⚡Shock the monkey 🐒 Spectre Ospecting Osmotically Salient solutions. 39:09 If X Z and Y are aperture coordinates to infinity and X to Z can express relational closeness, in a horizontal sense. Then if I add Q as a fourth coordinate Z Q can express a tide of the being , giving depth to a relationship ,of a vertical sense. On salientness 🤔 Water from a primary source is contextualised through a font . Water from a secondary source is contextualise through an ecosystem and both exist within the same body. I'm not exactly sure what my point is here , yet- but maybe paradox is in itself an opening into experience.

[@mediocrates3416]

Which dead person is best? Crazy. Living smart people would go crazy.

[@CastleClique]

i’ve been trying to get into vervaeke, but his dialogue is so jargon heavy, you can’t understand a single thing he says…

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Speaking of "atmospheric phenomena", Hermann Schmitz published a lot of interesting studies, i.m.o. He proposed doing a "new phenomenology", which is interdisciplinary, yet also sticks to "thick descriptions", as proposed by Edmund Husserl. I wonder, if his heritage will live on? Regrettably, his approach (and huge amount of publications) seems to have been mostly neglected by the academic main-stream. Jochen Kirchhoff seems, somehow, to follow a similar approach, and he is present even on KZbin. He might have some interesting thoughts to contribute... just saying. With regard to Martin Heidegger, my impression is that he and his work can, in some aspects, be better understood via a biographical-historical approach. For example, if he sounds often rather gloomy, it may have to do, among other things, with the experiences of WW-I, like the hunger-winter of 1917, and so forth. A colleague of his, the sociologist Alfred Schütz, who was drafted into the Austrian K&K army, stated later (when in New York) that his war-experiences changed his world-outlook profoundly and dramatically. Another point would be: Heidegger might not have felt the need to extemporalize on "religion" (however defined), because of, for example, the intense studies already done by scholars, like Max Weber, and Ernst Troeltsch, during their time in Heidelberg; they had already done a lot of the job, so to speak. Then there were others, like Oswald Spengler, which also were very influential during the time of the Weimarian Republic, and thereafter. Still another point: As Heidegger did a deep dive into "Being and Time", maybe he dug too deep, so to speak, because it´s not easy to argue with "time", and he reached the limits, resp. liminalty, of all possibly imaginable change and transformation as such... same may apply to other sceptics/pessimists (finding themselves in the role of "good informed optimists"), like A. Schopenhauer and F. Nietzsche... and one may think of the "Renaissance man" and painter Albrecht Dürer, often showing the "tuning/Gestimmtheit" of a kind of a basic manic-depressive mood---which also shows already inside the older Judeo-Christian tradition(s), if we take a close look: There is not onyl Agape, but there are also many "shadows", which seem to have bothered Carl Gustav Jung considerably.---But these "factors" all may rather touch, mainly, on another field of study: the "history of collective mentalities" (á la Max Weber), which, however, is not easy to "operationalize"... Same applies, so my impression, even---mutatis mutandis---to the "Kyôto-School". One point to shortly mention: Agape would rather be a domain of the Kannon-cult (Jodô-shinshû, etc.), whereas "Zen proper" is often characterized as rather "cool", if not "cold". Another one: For me, personally, the emblem of "shûnyatâ" seems a bit apologetic in use, at least in parts, being connected with the intention to cover up the "shadows" implicit in the whole "system"---again, the cultural-historical view shows, all in all, a rather more mixed picture than when we only take the often presented "pure ideal-types" into regard. Some more phenomenology of the emblem/ideal/concept of "shûnyatâ" would be a desiderate, if I may say so. It seems, in short, to refer to different realms of "(non-)knowing-(non-)being" . And it seems to me, not at least, refer to some primordial "vital space-time" (somehow reminding me a bit of Henri Bergson´s "durée"), which is somehow felt as something "atmospheric"---which brings the argument back to the new (structural) phenomenology, mentioned above. Sorry, got quite lengthy, this commentary, but this topic seems really basic... Thanks for your interesting talk, and thanks for sharing.

[@mediocrates3416]

How to drive smart people crazy: talk about what dead people thought about other dead people.

[@stetsonscott8209]

around @29:00, it seems to me that Vervaeke posits that Hegel had a view of the dialectic that I hadn't understood to be his; namely that one cannot form larger models or framworks using thesis and antithesis, but rather that this is a primary method of knowledge formation. I would agree to something like a wittengenstien-based critique of hegel - supposing that things are beheld non-linguistically as an inherent part of primordial experience. I tried to look up more info on Jung's critique of Nitzsche and found a youtube video compiling several observations to form the claim that Jung Feared Nitzche kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3rCeH1qjNWNg9U

[@simbabwe2907]

I would like to see more dialogos with people you're totally unfamiliar with. That would be great. Like a japanese that studys nishitani. Because a japanese would have a embodiment relationship to the stuff nishitani is talking about. Itvs part of his cultural grammer. We westerners can only come close nothing more.

[@mediocrates3416]

Serious play is like creole languages; gotta leave it to the kids.

[@mediocrates3416]

"Wonder" is always "wonder *about*". Avoid the words "question" and "truth" and you're left with a pacifier.

[@waynemcmillan5970]

Did Jung discover what Nishitani discovered years ago?

[@UncleBuckDallas]

@John Vervaeke I have a question: what, if anything, is the relationship between rationality and the placebo effect? I am thinking back to your meaning crisis videos on Socrates and the shamanic, as well as Plato, and wondering if there may be some connection between rationality, dia-logos, perhaps the dialectic as well, and how those relate to the placebo effect?