No fear, No grief - Caravan of Qur'anic Contemplation: Tadaburat #94

[@lionelchan1601]

Peace, I note lately how "difficult" it is for my people's (ie. Westernized Chinese) to give space for grief and the recognition of hurt. Hence making it "easy"/"well prepared" for hurt recognition to occur, lest hurt denial merely continue and a return to wholeness remain blocked, is a blessing from the Most High indeed. Space giving for grief then I think is best catalyzed by an embodiment free from future and past stucknesses. Sakina comes to mind. CS Lewis clearly did not have as much as he thought. Salaam.

[@QuranicIslam]

@@lionelchan1601 salaam. Honestly I didn't get that first paragraph too well, could you rephrase it? You mean grieving is socially/culturally looked down upon? What do you think C.S. Lewis thought he had? I've never read him apart from Screwtape Letters. I've been meaning to read his Mere Christianity and I have his Surprised By Joy on my shelf in my home country

[@lionelchan1601]

@@QuranicIslam Peace, Yes. Think British "stiff upper lip", but add a further stiffness that a superficial absorption (and simultaneous rejection) of Confucianism contributes. Adab as reduced to "how one or one's family looks in public", so that any emotionality at all is suppressed, in public and private. I guess CS Lewis thought he knew Allah SWT and the Most High, but instead he merely knew God, believing them to be the same. A fair enough refuge given conditions and culture, but one that is set to fail. Hence the Sakina and freedom from fear couldn't last, and his grief led directly to doubt. As the West is wont to do of course, the book recounting this that you grabbed his quote from is taken not as a indicator of failure of faith and erroneous foundations, but is transformed into a sign of wild success via strength of open sentiment. "They do not reason"...

[@lionelchan1601]

@@QuranicIslam PS. Following a certain Muslim western academic critique of the Enlightenment thread, I came across this book: --- Throughout the course of its successive transformations, Western political thought has been impelled by its metaphysical determination to secure the appropriate theoretical grounds and instrumental means by which security itself could be secured. The politics of Western thought has, therefore, been a security project in the fullest sense of the term... it not only constitutes an escape from politics but also a form of tragic denial. - Michael Dillon, "The Politics of Security" --- Western colonialism and arrogance as a compensation for deep existential fear, which I propose again is based on a lack of true refuge in the Eternal (thinking that their "God" is the same). Real Sakina is thus culturally impossible... and will be for any of us too if we absorb the same errors.

[@QuranicIslam]

@@lionelchan1601 I actually don't know what the quote was from 😆 ... I just put in Google Images "fear and grief" looking for images to use in a thumbnail. This struck me, bc fear & grief are linked. May be they are essentially the same thing; anxiety. Only one is about the past, the other about the future.

[@OMAR-REZA-HAMiM-77]

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[@ZenIslam19]

Dawah to Christians should educate them on the historical scholarship on NT theological formation so they can open up to being Unitarian

[@ramillc]

Salām! Could the phrase “no fear will be upon them, nor will they grieve” be a reference to living in the present? Like you said during the stream, fear is for the future and grief concerns the past so if there is neither perhaps it could mean that those who believe and do good deeds will not overthink or worry in a “bad” way? Of course, people plan for the future and use the past as lessons but the opposite could be self imposed anxiety or depression caused by constant fear over the future (not trusting that things will be okay) and grief over past mistakes/bad choices (not believing one can be forgiven or be given another chance). Would love to get your thoughts on this!

[@QuranicIslam]

@@ramillc Yes it could be, I was thinking a little along those lines, easy to do with a Sufi background, but though that idea is there I wanted to keep it more general and closer to what most people understand and is better seen in the text. Bc in most verses it is a promise & reward. While living in the present is something you yourself must achieve. Still, the verse that most closely tracks that idea is the one about the friends/saints/awliya of Allah. I didn't put it in the stream, but here it is; { اَلَاۤ اِنَّ اَوۡلِیَآءَ اللّٰہِ لَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَیۡہِمۡ وَلَا ہُمۡ یَحۡزَنُوۡنَ ۚۖ } [Surah Yūnus: 62] "Truly the awliya of God, there is no fear upon them nor dothey grieve" It is often taken as the definition of sainthood for Sufis. A true saint never has any fear for the future nor grieves for the past. He lives entirely in the present. As their saying goes "a Sufi is the son of the present"

[@lionelchan1601]

Sakina... Those that have it or might have it are worth investigating, whatever their background. To me, 4:46 is an indicator to that those claiming spiritual authority should encourage others to personally verify their authority and freedom from fear or grief, as opposed to merely commanding obedience on the basis of institutional/sectarian position.

[@aladindelic]

No other group is included because they have to follow millet of Ibrahim. For example, buddists (and zoroastrians as their branch) have no belief in God at all; they believe in good/evil and other concepts, but they're godless. When we say "christians" we mean all of them or western christians (catholics mostly). Similarly, word translated as "Sabians" refer to eastern christians (orthodox). El-Mejoos in 22:17 are converters, not zoroastrians.

[@lionelchan1601]

Peace, Whatever we want to say about "God", Buddhists are supposed to take true refuge in the Unconditioned however. The corruption within the ideas of reincarnation (contradicted by Annata) and the Triple Gem (all recognise Buddha died claiming there is only one refuge) fits with the need for a Qur'anic confirmation by correcting. The Brahma invitation is also an excellent critique of any mistaken elevation of any mere Jinn to the position of Source. Salaam.

[@An_Gha_]

Wa alaykum salam ​@@lionelchan1601 Interesting. Do you have any book recommendations about pure Buddhism to show it can be included in islam?

[@QuranicIslam]

@@aladindelic Not sure what you mean by no other group is mentioned. You mean in those two verses? I don't think it would mention Buddhists or Hindus simply because they weren't present. Besides which they are included in the address to all mankind. Explicit belief in God, as I've often said, us in my view overrated and over emphasized. What "is" God? No one really knows. Whose to say a bear, impersonal concept of "Good" or "Energy" isn't closer to reality in comparison to how the "Abrahamic world" speaks of the Creator as a "person", with He rather than "It"? I think sabi'un refers to religious apostates of other religions. It is a praiseworthy thing to see the problems in Christianity & Judaism, yet keep the overarching faith in them and continue to be Christian or Jew ... but it is equally praiseworthy to see the problems and leave those religions out of faith in God and not accepting their corruptions. The early Muslims, according to narrations were called apostates from the religion of their forefathers using the word saba' Majoos I think are well known academically and not a mystery

[@aladindelic]

Just to clarify, I have nothing against Buddhists, and especially nothing against Hindus, I'm just stating facts that there's no concept of God in Buddhism and Hindus are polytheists. Hindus were present in Arabian peninsula, thus many people connect black stone from nowadays Ka'ba with Shiva's "stone". Persian Buddhists were neighbours to Arabs, as matter of fact they built Bagdad (originally Al-Medinet-us-Salam). Other religions were also present, but none of them are in these two ayat if they don't believe in God and Aakhiret and didn't make corrections. What is Allah in His Essence we are unable to know. This was known even to Aristotle, when he spoke about 5th state of matter (namely ether). What we can know and should strive to know and have is Him in His Names. As Aristotle also saw, there can be only knowledge or belief. We cannot have knowledge on Allah and Aakhiret, thus we have to have belief. There's no "proof for Allah". I wonder why muslims strive so hard to put (ancient) Persians in their company, when its very obvious from surah Ar-Room (30th) that Persians' defeat was a reason for celebration. After all, my view on this topic is that we all are different, but if one believes in Allah and in Aakhiret (knowledge is not required) and has done some SaaliHaat, then he'll get a reward in presence of his Rabb, there's no fear of unknown (what may happen) on/against him, and he has no reason to ever grieve (of what he missed/done wrong). Since a verb yaHzenoon is in imperfect then this will last as the Qur'an lasts and is surely not just for this life but also for the next life.

[@lionelchan1601]

@@aladindelic Peace, Well I myself might have a problem with Buddhists and Hindus, I mean not personally, for I have no reason to believe we do not all try our best with what we are given. But if they are in denial of the Unconditioned, then they are in error, and they will spread corruption throughout the Earth, even if they don't intend to. This goes for "People of the Book" as well. And as far as I can tell, many of us still conceive of a "God" that is very far from being One, Almighty and All Merciful indeed, if our conduct in the world has anything to say about it. Sikhs as a group are the most consistent with this embodied Tawhid that I have seen, at least in the West. Peace.

[@knkn5049]

Oh! It is about Sabians, i just investigated it yesterday, i think first muslims were sabians(Al-Bukhari 344, 3522): were reading night sky and zodiac signs. And god himself put zodiac signs in sky, for people to read and observe:(15 16) and (25 61). But later that tradition was dropped. But i still haven't finished my investigation and don't know all evidences to support "influence of the stars or other buruj's" in quran, it could be just another iteration of "satanic verses" to please another religious group, same as "19 guardians of hell" fabrication.

[@QuranicIslam]

@@knkn5049 haha! 😏 what is the "it" in your first sentence? Love the enthusiasm. The "sabi'un"/sabians mentioned in these verses, in my view, are the religious apostates of all groups. They are the individual Christians, Jews, and even Muslims, and also Hindus, Budhists, etc ... Anyone who was born into a religion, saw faults in it that they couldn't just cover up or put on the side & cover with faith, and so left that organized religion but maintained the primary faith & belief in a Creator. Yes, the early Muslims were called that by the Meccans, and again there it is because they left and apostated from the religion they were on. Hence why I think it means apostates. The exMuslims to me now, for example, are sabi'een.

[@knkn5049]

@@QuranicIslam you just ate English explanation "who embraced new religion" that doesn't belong to original arabic text. But it is just the way modern sheikhs try to escape embarrassment: for hadiths 344,3522 your made up explanation works, but translator of Al-bukhari 4372 decided to use his opportunity and explicitly deny any connections. In reality you have to open tafsirs and read who are sabians: Al-Jalalayn, ibn Abbas, Kashani tafsir s for 2:62, 22:17 will explicitly tell you that sabians worship some kind of angels, that live on planets, in their little houses, mansions, and for word "mansion" ibn Abbas used word "buruj" (zodiac signs) for verses 15:16, 25:61. I haven't finished my research, but i can show you some verses to demonstrate unhealthy attention to stars from quran.

[@QuranicIslam]

@@knkn5049 Not really sure what you mean by this reply. The definition of Sabians is what I think works, in both the Qur'an and Hadiths. It is actually found in tafsir too; that they are those who have left the religion of their forefathers, so apostates. See alTabari here for example; قال أبو جعفر: و"الصابئون" جمع"صابئ"، وهو المستحدث سوى دينه دينا، كالمرتد من أهل الإسلام عن دينه. وكل خارج من دين كان عليه إلى آخر غيره، تسميه العرب:"صابئا". يقال منه:"صبأ فلان يصبأ صبْأ" And again he has; واختلف أهل التأويل فيمن يلزمه هذا الاسم من أهل الملل. فقال بعضهم: يلزم ذلك كل من خرج من دين إلى غير دين. وقالوا: الذين عنى الله بهذا الاسم، قوم لا دين لهم Then lists all the narrations that support that. These are the opinions he puts in first Of course the tafsirs give lots of different interpretations too. So, being the "mother of tafsirs", puts in other opinions including what you said; وقال آخرون: هم قوم يعيدون الملائكة ويصلون إلى القبلة That they say worship God, pray the 5 daily prayers, face Mecca, recite the Zabour ... but also worship angels AlJalalyn doesn't say that. He says they are a sect among Jews or Christians, and nothing else. Ibn 'Abbas doesn't have a tafsir. You'll have to quote Kashani, I've never seen it Still though, I don't think sabi'un has anything to do with worshipping angels. These opinions seem to come from thin air without any backing. And I haven't seen anything about planets or little "homes" Not sure what you mean by an unhealthy obsession with stars in the Qur'an nor its relevance here. You were saying they worship angels not stars. The main opinion given by Tabari and others is obviously the correct one imo; they are apostates.

[@knkn5049]

@@QuranicIslam i use "altafsir" of Jordan, to read tafsirs. Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs for 2:62, 5:69, 22:17 2:62 "...sabaeans) A christian sect whose members shave the middle of their heads, read the gospel, worship the angels and say: " our hearts have returned (saba'at) unto allah..." 5:69 "...sabaeans) a christian sect, WHO are milder(soft) than the other christians..." and it is religion: "...Jews repent of Judaism, the SABAEANS OF THEIR RELIGION and the Christians of Christianity..." 22:17 "...sabaeans) the itinerants..." (moving from place to place) And you can find translation of al-Taḥrīr wa-al-Tanwīr: "...The essence of this religion is the worship of the celestial bodies, such as the planets, the moon, and some stars like the North Star. They believe in the Creator of the universe, who is one..... However, they claimed that humans are incapable of reaching the majesty of the Creator, ..... They claimed that these spirits inhabit the planets and descend into human souls to connect with them ..... They worship the celestial bodies intending to connect with their spiritualities, and for the descent of those spiritualities onto human souls...." And Al-Jalalayn and Kashani and ibn Abbas do not contradict to each other and to al-Taḥrīr wa-al-Tanwīr. Sect? Probably, but how do they differ? They worship stars. You holding on explanation in brackets, that was made up on last week, and 3rd hadith i showed to you, contradicts to "version of apostates" and none of available english tafsirs mention "apostasy", but you get good view to sabians as some kind of nomads/bedouins who natively use star navigation and practice some kind of astrology.

[@knkn5049]

@@QuranicIslam it is you who has to quote Tabari, when i brought you 4 tafsirs to support one version, you cherry picked Tabari i never heard about, to protect "explanation in brackets" that was added on top of the text. "All narrations that support that" narrators are parrots, they repeat things, they support nothing. On other hand i gave you 4 different tafsirs to support one opinion. Al-Jalalayn and Kashani and ibn Abbas will develop their ideas about 'what "buruj" means' for different verses: 15:16 and their explanation will correlate to "sabians as star worshipers": angels, mansions, constellations... And you dodged 3rd hadith, that contradicts to version of Tabari. I think Tabari was aware that prophet was called sabian, and tried to cover it up, while others scholars could speak freely about what they know. Altafsir contains 50 Arabic tafsirs for 2:62, you read arabic, list me 10 i can open and support version of "apostates" and not religion as ibn Abbas says.