No, seriously...what is going on with Disney's "Wish"?

[@laurena9563]

The thing is for me is that Disney, by trying to appeal to everyone, is ultimately appealing to no one and have lost their teeth to make more substantial creative decisions. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Disney would try to make something like The Hunchback of Notre Dame today.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

To think they almost let Danny Elfman make Little Demons and The World of Jimmy Callicut. Only the song demos got made for those movies before they got canned but they are fire.

[@giuliasole9878]

Certainly not today. Iger is not a fan of The Hunchback of Notre Dame

[@mr.x2567]

Which is why I’ve stopped buying movie theater tickets to Disney entirely. Hell, I wouldn’t even have Disney+ if it weren’t for the fact that it came free with my Verizon.

[@Attmay]

@@giuliasole9878 Disney’s modern problems started around the time he joined the company through the ABC merger. That is no coincidence. I don’t believe in coincidences, and certainly not where Disney is concerned.

[@e.t.2437]

i@@giuliasole9878 I didn't know that but doesn't surprise me. HoND had balls, and Iger doesn't.

[@Nyxxeonn]

I think having quirky characters would be fine if they weren't all exactly the same. Like, Lilo was just genuinely a weird kid, but not in a quirky sense.

[@mastelsa]

Lilo was a weird kid in an off putting sense, which is unironically extremely important representation for actual weird kids who get ostracized and misunderstood by other kids.

[@genericname2747]

Lilo bit a kid for insulting her dead mom. We REALLY need more Disney protagonists with flaws like this.

[@shipper-of-heart8898]

@@genericname2747 oh no she bit Myrtle for calling her crazy (but people theorize that Lilo's 'Pudge gets a PB sandwich to control the weather' stemmed because of her trauma- her parents died in a car accident while driving in the rain). When Myrtle pulled the 'You'll NEVER be like your mom' card, Lilo went full on attack mode while Stitch happily took photos/ a selfie

[@genericname2747]

@@shipper-of-heart8898 My bad, I forgot Lilo fought her twice. Lilo is peak Disney protagonist.

[@Ready-ForTheEnd]

​@@shipper-of-heart8898 And punched her...and pulled her hair 😂😂

[@moonbunny24]

See, Rapunzel was the blueprint BUT Tangled also had a lot of quiet moments. The scene right after she knocks Eugene out where she's trying on the crown. The kingdom dance. We see her thinking silently a LOT more than you'd expect with the current problem. The REAL blueprint is Anna who is constantly talking stream-of-consciouness style and constantly supposed to be funny unless the scene is particularly dire. I think Disney's humor problem (which the quirky protagonist is symptomatic of, rather than being an independent problem) stems from Frozen, truthfully. It's Disney wanting to make things that are memetically funny that they can slap on t-shirts and get people to post gifs of to generate interest and whatever else. It's a corporation looking at the success of something and taking away all the wrong messages. A tale as old as time.

[@noname-kx4cu]

It also reminds me of superhero movies nowadays. They have horrible comedic timing. That's like the biggest thing that annoys me is the joke can be funny but you need to have the timing right and they don't seem to know how to do the timing right.

[@MrDavidkowalski11]

This is a good point, and a really good example to boot. Rap whacking Flynn with a frying pan and then looking back and forth in silence at what she had just done was both comedic and worked well towards her character as she's sheltered and not 100% sure if she killed him or just knocked him out. This is opposed to the "jabber-jaw" method that Disney takes now where they seem to throw out as many quirky lines as possible hoping that one of them sticks as a meme and thus their marketing is done for them. The problem being that what the internet decides to find funny and prop up as a meme seems completely random. You can't write an algorithm for what the internet will make popular because what the internet will make popular is purely random. Disney wants to have as many top hitters as possible. I get it, they're a multinational entertainment conglomerate who wants their profit margin as wide as possible. But sacrificing quality for profit margins is why they're seeing the returns that they are.

[@PC_Princess]

🎶 *_Tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme, Disney and the Memes_* 🎶

[@macaronitony93]

it sounds like rapunzel was the prototype and anna was the finished product

[@keeru_2763]

it's sad, because the "a-dork-able" trope really did work well for anna, because she'd been locked in her caster with minimal human contact her whole life after having her memory wiped, so it makes sense that she'd be a bit socially inept, or easily trusting in the wrong people, but it just doesn't work for these newer princesses.

[@pillbugm8914]

I think there's just too much humour in Disney's movies now. Emotional moments and tension needs space to breathe and grow, and it feels like Disney is always desperate to move on rather than let discomfort settle.

[@Chroma10008]

I mean, humour is fine if it’s good humour, but they’re not even TRYING with this one. I do agree with what you said about emotional moments though, it’s really important to have a balance.

[@theunschooledgirl]

'Emotional moments and tension needs space to breathe and grow' I need to get this tattooed on my forehead or something lol. I've been trying to find the best way to describe this very thing to people and this is probably the best way I've ever seen it put.

[@pbjmochi8400]

It's a very human trait to hide vulnerability behind layers of irony, but when everyone does it, it gets exhausting. Many writers these days are afraid of disappointing audiences, or they confuse quirky one-liners for deep self-awareness. It all ends up feeling so insincere.

[@XiaoLynn]

This. Today movies like Hunchback of Notre Dame couldn't be made at the least in the way they were made back then.

[@peachy_lili]

@@pbjmochi8400 it leads to an uncanny feeling in the audience as well. when everyone is being insincere that's the mirror we're looking into.

[@Kaykayslayer1]

I am so tired of the voice actors being celebrities and not career voice actors. I want voice actors back, I would love it if people went to see animated movies for the movie instead of a celebrity voice actor that they are using to promote the film. I remember loving Mulan as a kid and not because of Eddie Murphy but because it was a really empowering story about being yourself.

[@beajack4990]

Looking back at the classic Disney castings, most of them are famous celebrities. You just don’t realize who they are when your a kid cuz you don’t care haha

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

But I want Danny Elfman to voice more things

[@Cherri_Stars]

I think the way they used to do it in the 90s and 00s where it was mostly voice actors, but they brought in like one comedian to play it up as a side character, worked really well. The comedian can do their thing and bring in a celebrity-seeking audience, and the main characters can deliver emotional depth. Weirdly enough, the most recent film I can think of that did this was Finding Nemo

[@beajack4990]

@@Cherri_Stars finding Nemo actually had a ton of well known actors, like willam dafoe for instance played Gill, and Allison Janney played Peach. You don’t realize how many celebrities are actually in childhood movies that you just didn’t notice, because you had no idea who they were. Seriously look the imdbs it’s kinda wild

[@panmoncada7257]

I wonder if it’s because the performance still took front and center, and while they advertised and promoted the actors that wasn’t the focal point anymore. I remember during lion king being so excited for the cast but some performances just fell so flat and I can’t help but wonder how many were disenchanted by Disney or by the directing. Some were still good don’t get me wrong, but these live action movies feel like they’re built of the rush of seeing ur in person fan casting come to life

[@yingyangdevious]

The issue I’m also finding with Disney is that they’re so paranoid about scaring their audience. Like even the slightest bit. Every good Disney movie had an element of fear, some more than others, but Disney is waaay too pussyfoot about fear nowadays. Even the Haunted Mansion was dull. Like, c’mon, Disney! Scare me! They haven’t done it since Tangled. Also, Gothel was the last good Disney villain. God I miss em.

[@andreao298]

I think it's because nowadays too many parents are anxious about their children getting scared. My old boss told me that she preferred the new little mermaid movie because it removed the scary parts the old one had and so it couldn't scare her 4 year old daughter. The whole time I was thinking "those were the best parts for me as a child" lol

[@katherinesmallbean3594]

I think that King Candy from Wreck it Ralph was also a good villain, but Gothel is definitely the final one we got who had that classic wicked witch vibe.

[@DCreed013]

@@andreao298 Parents just don't want to have to deal with their kids being scared anymore. Sure, the crying and the nightmares are inconvenient, annoying even. Or maybe their just worried they're going to f*ck up the kid and traumatize them. But parents aren't realizing that being exposed to scary things in a safe way is an important part of a child's development. If we coddle our kids and sanitize their environment their whole childhood, how is that kid supposed to deal with the real world? How are they supposed to come to terms with mortality, to understand what is and isn't a real threat, or deal with REAL scary things?

[@d112cons]

Gothel was terrifying. AND - had a badass "villain" song. Weaponized emotional abuse is a nasty superpower.

[@andreao298]

@@DCreed013 you're right, it's very important for a child's development to feel fear in a safe environment so they know how to deal with that emotion later in life. Also as a child I was really easily scared and disney movies never even gave me nightmares or anything jaja they're not even THAT scary for children

[@josephbrown9685]

“It’s a kids movie” is the worst kind of excuse. The best Disney animated movies are not kids movies. That’s a misnomer. Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion King, etc. are brilliant movies for all ages.

[@vulpinemachine]

The term used to be "FAMILY MOVIE". But y'know "families" aren't really a thing anymore I guess. Just some stupid "outdated" concept we need to move past as a species. /s

[@muigokublack6487]

I always hated that. It's tossed out as an excuse to be lazy when the reverse is true in that means you try HARDER. Kids are not dumb.

[@unseenmolee]

yeah like for 1 kids are a lot smarter and more perceptive than we give them credit for. 2 those kids are bound to grow up, they wont stay kids forever. making movies/shows that dumb themselves down is a disservice to everyone. kids deserve media that sees them as full human beings, not infantilizing them.

[@MahouShoujoTomato]

Right? And the fact that most Disney animated movies are rated G for General Audiences/All ages, not K for Kids specifically, so it bothers me when people talk like you can't watch and enjoy cartoons/animation as an adult without being seen as weird. :/ Not to mention that these movies are made/thought up by adults in the first place! They also don't think about parents taking their children to see these movies, especially in the case of ones rated PG. That's what made Shrek so great, because not only was it entertaining for the kids, but the adult jokes and humor made it entertaining for adults who had to watch it as well. I mean, it was still a good movie regardless, but them catering to both children and adults was a good move.

[@ArturoGonzalez-di6rd]

In the words of Chris Stuckmann “Movies made for children, should try just as hard as movies made for adults.”

[@mexiaznann]

I feel like a better parallel for Asha would be Mulan - Mulan was the character that girls could relate to that “didn’t fit in” with the previous princesses before. She was clumsy, awkward, and felt like she let down her parents & ancestors. But we saw her get up and push through all of that in order to become a leader, a fighter, and protect her family. And did it WITHOUT being “quirky” 🤪 Mulan was the best representation of having strength in a patriarchal world when no one believed in her.

[@Wellworm]

Quirky is fine. I like quirky. The problem's when EVERYONE is quirky.

[@gdplayer8768]

Adorkable is fine like once every DECADE

[@darkartsninja]

And the fact that she put in effort & work to be a great soldier! I hated, down to my core, how the abomination called the live-action Mulan gave her the stupid "chi" powers.

[@brokeninfinitysonic1]

When the guy ran down the stairs in the trailer it was clear that everyone has the same personality.

[@decorateddeerskull]

Might i also point out that she was an amazingly strong female lead, who did have flaws and relied on the help of her friends and her own cunning to win the fights. Instead of the at least live action remakes, where the female lead has to be a strong woman that dont need no man, or anyone to help her win the day. Mulan was also quirky, but a reasonable amount, it wasnt overdone to the point that it was her main character trait

[@lillypar8415]

I know this isn’t Disney but Puss in Boots the Last Wish is an EXCELLENT example of making a children’s movie that doesn’t treat kids like they’re idiots. It had a scary, compelling antagonist. It had a movie storyline. It dealt with coming face to face with your own mortality. It dealt with how to conquer those fears. It showed INCREDIBLE character growth! He didn’t *beat* death, he accepted it! And that helped him move on from that fear and lean into his found family. It was a GORGEOUS film with a GORGEOUS plot and a GORGEOUS story line, I was in love the moment I watched it. It was crazy how mature it was because KIDS CAN HANDLE IT! And not only did it have death, it had big Jack Horner! That dude was an irredeemable douche and it worked! Kids can handle that stuff and we treat them like they can’t. I feel like the Disney movies being churned out lately are shallow in a lot of ways. It’s OKAY to have an obvious villain, and it’s OKAY for them to be irredeemable. It’s admirable, even.

[@kc_9970]

And what about that ONE scene where the movie censors Perrito's roast on the three bears?

[@astrid3321]

I was just thinking about this! That movie is proof that you can make a movie with teeth, and still have it be a huge success, not despite of the teeth, but because of them. I wish disney would learn from this

[@fairyfairiefaerie]

puss in boots 2, spiderverse movies, mitchell’s vs machines, paper man, the bad guys, heck even THE LION KING (etc.) are all movies that prove stylization for 3d movies IS possible (ex lion king) and also mixing 2d animations/elements with 3d is possible too! It is totally possible for them to have the 2d watercolour style/aesthetic without reducing the style or quality of the 3d animation. The quality we got now for Wish 3d models i feel is a result of them trying so hard to fit the typical 3d disney style (u see in tangled, frozen, encanto etc) into a stylized world WITHOUT changing it to also be stylized.

[@lillypar8415]

@@fairyfairiefaerie I agree!! It comes across as lazy and sanitized, which is incredibly disappointing for such a massive company that can MORE THAN AFFORD to take risks. Just… do it, you know? Look at PiB and Spiderverse like you mentioned, those are gorgeous and super popular! It’s barely a risk if at all. Put the passion back into your animations! Their latest content is heartbreaking.

[@vglycorpse2001]

Me AND my 10 year old sister watched that Puss in Boots movie every single day for like 6 days straight when we first saw it. Kids love both generic bubbly stories and more serious tones! The Lion King and Hercules are my 2 favorite Disney movies of all time, due to their more mature nature

[@ElijahRhyne]

I have four young kids and write content that's mainly post modern reflections on media through the eyes of a nerd turned parent. You're spot on in the fact that kids understand way more than adults give them credit for. It's almost frustrating when people think "for kids" means "without depth".

[@EmperorSarco]

I agree. The creator of Wordgirl, an educational TV show that expands vocabulary, made the show with the idea that kids' content shouldn't underestimate kids. I'm 18 and I feel like kids content should not be dumbed down for kids, they deserve quality content.

[@warcatfurever101writeroffanfic]

@@EmperorSarcothank you for mentioning Wordgirl. I watched that as a child. Such a good show. I appreciated that when I was young. Kids enjoy quality stuff.

[@3nowStorm]

I hate the use of “it’s for kids” as a reason that a movie or tv show isn’t really that good. If it’s a lazy story without much depth, it’s for kids, what do you expect? As a kid I knew more than people gave me credit for and I’m sure that’s still the case with kids now. We just act like kids can’t understand stories if they’re not really simple and that’s just stupid. Something being for kids doesn’t excuse it being lazy and I don’t know why people act like it does.

[@froggycolouring]

@@EmperorSarcoWordgirl was my childhood lmao I remember going over to my friends house after preschool or elementary school and going to my friends house to see what was on pbs today I’m pretty sure we watched word girl on there too, idk if it was on pbs or just on the tv in general tho

[@Cherri_Stars]

​@EmperorSarco such a good example! I think Wordgirl came out when I was around 12, so somewhat outside the target age range, but I still watched it and loved it because it was genuinely clever and entertaining. Same with Phineas and Ferb which was coming out around the same time

[@kseni_vely]

I kinda hate it when people say "ough, old Disney is not better, it's just your nostalgia showing" Old Disney IS better, even the people working for the company now recognise that there was this unimaginable level of genius with writers, animators and voice actors delivering master pieces and I don't love all of it just *because* I obviously have my favourites 😅 The nostalgia is there, but it doesn't make me unreasonable.

[@mr.x2567]

Yeah, but I have seen millennials bully zoomers just for not growing up with the same media and I think those millennials are who Disney is trying to appeal to.

[@Attmay]

No one person since Walt Disney has been able to do all the things that Walt Disney did. Even those who followed in his footsteps have only done some of the things that he did.

[@Attmay]

@@mr.x2567 right now, it is easier than ever to access media from every era in recorded history than it ever has been since I’ve been alive.

[@kseni_vely]

@@mr.x2567 I'm 30, I'm the oldest sister, my siblings are 20 and 15yo. I don't bully zoomers about anything in this life 😅

[@amethyst_cat9532]

Disney employees now also have to be uncomfortably aware of how expendable they are and how big the company is, making them afraid to present anything they don't think is completely perfect. The writer who suggested the princesses' communal scene in Wreck-It-Ralph 2 thought that she was going to be FIRED for just making the suggestion. That's not an environment where ideas can be safely introduced and workshopped

[@CH4RM_QU4RK]

There isn’t enough darkness in modern Disney, both metaphorically and literally. The scene where Malefecent turning into a dragon, Scar’s villain song, Belle finding her father in the Beast’s dungeon & Gaston storming the castle, Frollo being Frollo… the black cauldron O_o

[@destined2bebossy]

Idk, that scene in Encanto where the husband gets killed was really dark

[@catdownthestreet]

I think one of the only Disney media productions that's hit me recently is The Owl House. (I know, it ended almost a year ago, but I still haven't gotten over it.) Despite the series getting cut short, the writers managed to hit me right in the feels with just enough screentime to make it _burn._ Throughout s2 especially, there were themes of losing one's purpose, child neglect/abuse, long lasting loneliness, feeling responsible for the problems in the world, and so on. It's a cartoon. A Disney one at that. And it's somehow deeper than everything Disney's put out in the movie world this year. Seriously, it's incredible, if you haven't seen it you absolutely have to. There's an actual villain and he's, like, the perfect Disney bad guy. Plus, even though the main character kinda fits the "quirky" stereotype, she's a lot deeper than that and it's especially apparent during s3. Enough of me gushing about my hyperfixation- I hope you enjoy it as much as I did, if you haven't seen it already.

[@starsh1ft]

you are so fucking real for that i love toh

[@pokemonultraz1262]

​@@starsh1ft Chad collector profile picture.

[@Rationalific]

There's a lot of darkness in modern Disney movies, but almost all of the darkness is "skin-deep", so to speak...

[@mr.perezident9381]

So basically Tangled gave us quirky protagonists, Frozen gave us villainless movies, and Moana gave us Lin Manuel Miranda

[@Ihartwalrusguy]

And Encanto got all three

[@melaniesheldon8013]

Frozen had a villain - that crappy prince who charmed Anna

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

@@melaniesheldon8013 But he didn’t get a song. Frozen’s villain song was “Let It Go”

[@heiress.]

Not necessarily villianless but they did popularize the ‘Twist Villain’. Wreck it Ralph and Zootopia had twist villains. Moana and Encanto kinda subverted this trope by introducing the ‘They were never a Villain just just understood’ trope with Te Fiti and Bruno.

[@simashakeri95]

@@melaniesheldon8013 hans doesnt really count to me because they wrote him as one last minute once they decided elsa wasnt going to be the villain and it really shows. a lot of the stuff he does in the first half of the film doesn't make any sense in the context of him having always been a villain. i remember when the first film came out some people made cool theories about the trolls using their magic to change hans and thats why he has the personality shift - just to explain the inconsistencies - but obviously those are just fan theories, not disney canon.

[@yeeyeeyeeye]

As a 2D animation enthusiast, I felt so gutted when he said that they probably don't even have the tools/means to make 2D animated movies anymore. Disney was THE company most well known for completely innovating the animation industry - especially with 2D animation - and it sucks to see that they are so far removed from their roots that the Disney from 100 years ago and the Disney we have now are two completely different entities.

[@Chiwowza]

If it makes you feel better, they actually started a traditional animation apprenticeship program last year in order to train a new generation of 2D animators (many of whom actually worked on the Once Upon A Studio anniversary short). I think they sense that people are hungry for more 2D and plan on doing at least something with it in the future

[@geoffreyrichards6079]

@@ChiwowzaIf their 3D films continue to underperform or bomb, I could see that as an incentive to bring back 2D animation as a change of pace.

[@dadadadeadgirl5602]

Honestly I was in disbelief when he said that. After all, helluva boss is a popular web series made by a small animation group, so I don't know if I can believe in him when he said 2d isn't popular

[@luckystarplays1837]

@@dadadadeadgirl5602 agreed. Indie shows like Helluva boss and Lackadaisy are giving people something bigger corporations won’t give them anymore. If things continue like this, I can actually see Disney looking for some way to bring back 2D animation

[@LeviathanxAngels]

@@luckystarplays1837hopefully hazbin being picked up by a bigger company wont ruin it :/ it has so much potential but i dont want to see it ruined by some corporate greediness

[@artwithbubblegum]

Again, as an artist who suffers from same face syndrome in my art it’s weird to see a massive company not know how to make unique faces/character designs

[@Manganization]

I think it's disingenuous to say they have the same face, they don't. But, they do share the similar artstyles and their character designs are based on what's considered the "Disney Princess" look for that artstyle. Older Disney cartoons had different characters designers for each project, sometimes for a group of characters within a project.

[@lisanee]

they do know how to draw unique faces. same molds sell better though, so...

[@presentlycrescent]

FREAKING S A M E. It’s one thing for an independent artist to struggle with that because SFS is a real thing, but a massive corporation built off of animation and unique characters should be able to do better Especially since they have in the past smh

[@katherinesmallbean3594]

@@Manganization I feel that they could still at least give their protagonists slightly different eye shapes or noses. The fact that they look so similar that people think they are the same says enough.

[@Niobesnuppa]

@@Manganization They don't have the same face, but they still look similar enough that they could be siblings. They all have very similar facial structure, heart-shaped faces, slightly almond-shaped large eyes, a small button nose, and a fairly small and narrow mouth that's very close to the nose.

[@readonlymemories]

One would think given the popularity of Elsa after Frozen, that it would lead to more Disney protagonists with her more reserved personality. I genuinely do not understand why Anna's personality was chosen over Elsa's to copypaste into future characters. Not to say there weren't any Anna fans, but how many children did you see dressed up as Elsa and singing Let It Go compared to those dressed up as Anna and singing Do You Wanna Build A Snowman??

[@Attmay]

Depression versus codependency: which one do you think today’s children would be more likely to identify with?

[@chansfeet2500]

@@Attmay Idk man, both to be completely honest. There's a lot of mental health issues among many demographics, including kids.

[@Light-ro5bp]

Wasn’t Elsa so popular because she had ice powers? When the movie released I remember my little cousin imitating the hand motions and the swoosh sound lmao, where are the worldbreakingly powerful Disney protagonists is what we should be asking

[@rhythmicmusicswap4173]

Millions of little girls,teens and young women love Elsa, a more mature, introvert and dark female characters Disney: let's keep producing bubbly, quirk female characters 😂

[@arishachoudhury_]

@@Light-ro5bp nah i think it was more her maturity and power at least thats what i liked the most about her

[@achewy7700]

the stock disney art style makes the visual storytelling so much worse. the lack of saturation and shadows makes everything flat. and having everyone have virtually the same proportions removes the entire aspect of shape language. it’s like when they stopped making 2d movies they forgot everything about 2d visdev.

[@riv7509]

Exactly! I saw the trailer for the first time and literally thought it looked unrendered because it was so flat

[@haleyt7518]

I feel like Tangoed is one of the only 3d movies that carried over those same 2d traits in terms of how all of the characters looked.

[@fatcat1414]

​@@haleyt7518 Makes sense. I believe Tangled was a near-sister release to Princess and the Frog. It would seem after discarding the medium, Disney also discarded the craft.

[@Jonathanest90s]

Horrible take

[@fatcat1414]

@@Jonathanest90s You could provide something of constructive value to the conversation if you disagree instead of being another useless barnacle on the underbelly of the comment section.

[@sxphity]

it's not even that modern disney/pixar is BAD, it just feels like every disney movie recently is a 50/50 shot between "surprisingly good" and "laughably terrible"😭

[@robbiewalker2831]

You're not wrong.

[@FerraticaTheBard]

Good way of putting it

[@bjcantrell1990]

So, bad then.

[@DTheAustralian]

tbh pixar's been fine. lightyear's the worst 2020s movie the studio's made, and even then that movie was just boring and mid rather than actively bad. everything else has been good (onward, luca, elemental) to great (soul, turning red)

[@arishachoudhury_]

@@DTheAustralian turning red aint great but yeah youre right

[@SkellaBella1396]

For some reason, I did not expect the protagonist of Wish to act the way she does… her design LOOKS like she’d be more mature or down to earth but in motion she’s spastic and messy. It’s a weird disconnect for me. Also I’ve been sick of this weird, modern, dorky style of humor in semi-historical Disney films for a while. Maybe it’s just my bias, but dialogue for Beauty and the Beast doesn’t feel as dated as something like Frozen.

[@kbraven7007]

To be fair Frozen doesn’t feel as dated as the other recent Disney movies, have you seen Encanto? The dialouge is going to become more dated overtime, especially after the We don’t talk about Bruno memes trend ends. Plus you can say whatever you want about Frozen, but at least the music still feels like Disney magic and if we hear it anywhere we can recognize the song, while Encanto feels like if they were from a journal of deleted Hamilton songs that they decided to repurpose for the movie.

[@viking-astronaut]

Asha's design looks off bc she's so toned down, she looks like a background character. The purples are desaturated (compared to Rapunzel's bright purples) and her dress is pretty simple (compared to Mirabel's many details). To me, Asha looks like the smart but kind older sister side character.

[@ataketesamuel9542]

​@@viking-astronauttrue

[@chansfeet2500]

I had the same feeling, and before the trailers came out, I thought that she may be a bit more on the quiet side, which would've been interesting to see. Couldn't have been further from the truth, my theory as to why she had the quiet vibes has to do with some of her poses on the posters/art, and the more muted colors. She's often drawn sitting down and/or gazing wistfully into the distance which seems less active, so I figured she wouldn't be very hyperactive.

[@TimeTravelerJessica]

I absolutely agree. Her design is very elegant. Especially in some of the posters where she is looking up at the wishing star wistfully, I thought she was going to be more of an introspective character. Truly gorgeous design, I wonder if the character was initially written differently and then they got studio notes to up the quirkiness. 😒

[@aruvius]

I’ve never noticed anyone point out the quirky personality thing until Wish was revealed, and I think it’s because Asha may just be the worst of it, especially with the trailers not showing any other moment to round out her character-except for the obligatory “but being bad is bad”, which doesn’t actually say anything about her. Anna and Moana are shown in moments of action where they have to be serious, but Asha gets 3 back-to-back scenes to show how cute and adorkable she is. They don’t really show anything else about her character except that she’s “quirky”.

[@croissant2882]

The bigger problem here is that in actuality Theyre all quirky Theyre the same character in different fonts You could forgive Rapunzel - she was stuck in a tower for 18 years But every other character after that is just Quirky Theyre ALL clumsy Theyre ALL a little odd They ALL have short quips and make funny faces Its not about the amount of serious scenes, its the general creation of a character They used to be different All good natured but different Cinderella was soft and kind Snow white was happy and innocent (cause she was a child) Jasmine and Pocahontas were strong and confident but Jasmine a bit more hot headed And even the more quirky ones were different : Ariel was infantile naive and romantic but Mulan was clumsy and serious Now Anna, Moana, Mirabel, this Asha character - theyre identical. And their friends and family, theyre also identical I cant imagine Wendy and Belle doing the same faces and making the same jokes And Sebastian wouldnt react to Ariels actions the same way as Mushu Because they were different charakters with different personalities Now theyre all gentrified The algorythm told Disney quirky eyebrow movements and sarcasm sell so now they all have erratic eyebrows and sarcastic oneliners

[@JacobJones-d6x]

good observation

[@Jonathanest90s]

That’s a racist statement

[@tarathoughts13]

@@croissant2882 ok Mirable and Anna I can lay off - mirabel is like 15 and Anna was also isolated away in a castle for like years so I can understand. Also mirable and Anna, while a bit quirky, still had strong moments and where they could be serious.

[@benjisaac]

@@tarathoughts13yeah I just rewatched encanto the other day with this quirky thing in mind and I didn’t really see it - she has a couple moments that are like “haha how quirky” but most of the time she’s just determined and trying to rally herself in the face of verbal and emotional abuse more than just being randomly dorky. I also think people probably forgot to point out the adorkable thing around the release of encanto because it’s just so good regardless lol

[@mavisavery4855]

Mirabelle’s quirkiness felt very justified to me. It wasn’t just quirky for quirky’s sake, it was very clearly the coping mechanism of someone trying to stay positive when dealing with intergenerational trauma and being the black sheep of the family. Encanto actually pretty quickly lets you see her quirkiness crack. At the end of the OPENING NUMBER, the VERY FIRST SONG, you see her desperately trying to keep the town children from asking about her gift, a minute later you see her give an obviously phoned-in and passive aggressive “thanks” to the guy who kinda called her “not special” for having no gift, and in the VERY SECOND SONG of the film you see her completely break down and admit that she’s not okay and that her optimism is a ruse.

[@myphinisheris0waot]

i actually like encanto though i understand with criticsms about it (the themes not going deep enough into such a layered concept), and i agree with your statement here. shes not quirky to be quirky, shes quirky cuz thats how she is-shes the cheerleader from the sidelines for her family trying to contribute as much as she can without a talent

[@BringMeTheChildren]

IMO Rapunzle was a cute design to. I really likes watching Tangled when I was younger... but still

[@Lara-gc9wd]

she's also very confident outside of her insecurities regarding her family role and gift. Whereas Anna and Rapunzel are fish out of water in their environments, but Mirabel nearly always owns her space

[@OlafLesniak]

She's still very much quirky when dealing with the town children. We don't really see her show us her true self, if what you're trying to say is true.

[@unrulycrow6299]

​@Lara-gc9wd and it totally fits with her control over the house as well!

[@brandonhicks9926]

The reason classic Disney movies hold up isn’t because they’re kids movies, it’s because they’re family movies. And nowadays, animated movies are overwhelmingly kids movies when they used to be made for the entire family of all ages to enjoy

[@LeslieThePirhana]

I agree , I’m a kid and I grew up on watching all the classic Disney movies on dvd. I try watching any modern Disney movie and I’m not even trying to be edgy but it feels like I’m a 40 year old watching cocomelon. They’ve gone so childish

[@middleeasternforhire8985]

​@@LeslieThePirhanaomg soooo true even dora the explorer was more mature than these😂😂

[@maffe_distroyer]

THIIIS

[@arishachoudhury_]

FR

[@LeslieThePirhana]

@@middleeasternforhire8985 fr I don’t think I remember liking any modern Disney movie since tangled. Some movies were likeable like elemental and turning red but they were still nothing compared to their original movies

[@19nmiller1]

Now that you mention it, Princess and the Frog and especially Tangled were the last two princess movies with actual classic villains with villain songs. Why I mention both is Princess and the Frog was the last 2D animated one, and Tangled was the last to have a true villain with villain songs. These are two of my all-time favorites and definitely my favorite "modern" Disney movies. I think Princess and the Frog is a true masterpiece, and I know I'm slightly biased because I live in New Orleans, but they went *in* on the culture. Tiana is a hardworking black woman trying her hardest to open up a restaurant in the face of racism and a lack of resources. The villain is a voodoo master who doesnt truly respect the art and is punished severely for not keeping up his end of the deal. Its the prince, not the princess, who is the naive, fun-loving, carefree one in their relationship and he needs to learn about the world from the woman who cant afford to take a break. Princess and the Frog is so politically charged and references a lot of extremely heavy topics without making them seem that way. And you cant go wrong with big band jazz music. I believe that movie was lightning in a bottle and theyll never quite capture that brilliance again, and based on how Wish looks, im very right lol

[@tonialston1968]

I love "Friends on the Other Side" from Princess and the Frog!

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

Also autistic and gender nonconforming. I relate to Rapunzel a lot just because I had an abusive foster parent who was just like Mother Gothel and is still holding my twin sister hostage (we just turned 34). Just going by the trailers Asha strikes me as a fake sort of affected quirkiness; they’re the type of kid that tend to hate people like me who are authentically quirky, and get annoyed at quirky things only when I do it but not when their fake-quirky friends do it.

[@propogandalf]

​@@nuclearcatbaby1131A hostage to an adoptive parent at 34? How?

[@TheP1x3l]

​@propogandalf It is definitely possible, if you're financially and emotionally manipulating someone. People end up trapped in abusive relationships as adults like that all the time. It's not uncommon.

[@serenafisherart]

I thought Tamatoa in Moana had a fantastic villain song too. Dr Facilier was on another level though.

[@thevoidcritter]

It really feels like Disney is afraid of being emotionally genuine. Also, do y'all think at least part of this movie is AI generated? It'd explain Magnifico's terrible villain song.

[@cheesycheese8451]

I wouldn't put it past Disney to use AI.

[@thirdcoinedge]

It's not that they're afraid of being emotionally genuine. It's more so that their films are more and more lacking the necessary buildup to allow for those moments to hit as well. Case in point: Judy's apology in Zootopia. That hits SO hard because the movie spent its time building the relationship between her and Nick, then gives us their third-act separation, which makes the apology his so much harder than if we didn't care about their friendship. I haven't seen Strange World, but I assume the comparison can be made there. Also, it's a bit critical to say that this movie was "made on AI", because that would devalue the work actual story boarders, animators, voice actors, sound designers, composers, editors, and more did on this film. Was it a mediocre movie? Yes, but even this film had talented people working on it. It wouldn't have looked so good otherwise, and to disregard the effort artists put into this would be disrespectful. The movie credits are there for a reason - to acknowledge the tens of people that made this.

[@lord_ozymandias]

i feel like the songs in this movie could very well be AI but it they aren’t well. terrible human art is better than great ai art so whatever

[@thequeenoftheabsols]

​@@thirdcoinedge A big company like Disney absolutely would use AI for this. AI is free and people are not. While they might not have made the ENTIRE movie with the use of AI, there's no reason to not assume the possibility of using AI especially when there's lyrics like "I let you live here for free and I don't even charge you rent" or, my personal favorite (from "I'm A Star"), "Ooh, I'm a star! Watch out world here I are". With how big of a company is, the latter shouldn't have made it into official release. Yes, mistakes happen, but this went through multiple layers of writers, editors, and actors. I genuinely believe the songs were written by AI at the least, since originally there was a genuinely interesting story that we were going to receive. If you're curious, originally it wasn't going to be a singular "morally grey" villain, but rather two corrupt rulers. Magnifico and his wife were the central villains who were like the original villains of Disney--Maleficent, Scar, etc. Additionally, it was going to have romance, another throwback to the older movies; the star was going to transform into a mute boy who Asha was going to fall in love with. Actually interesting nods to what made Disney what it is today. Going back to the villain of Wish, they tried to make Magnifico morally grey but also just purely evil in general by having him get possessed by an evil book, which isn't what made Magnifico and Asha have conflict; but rather her wanting her grandfather's extremely vague wish granted (which is a discussion for later) and him being hesitant about granting every wish he receives because what if his kingdom that he worked so hard on gets destroyed like the one he lived in before. It was trying to be a "best of both worlds" villain but came out as a "is he really in the wrong for this?" kind of character. TL;DR: While the story might not have been AI, the songs either were never fixed through the layers of management in the movie or they were written by AI (or some mix of both).

[@bacchiguu86]

It felt like someone dug a knife into my heart when the "animator" said that they don't have the tools/means to make 2d on a movie scale anymore. We'll never see it again, probably not from any company in the west. Thank goodness for countries like Japan and France for keeping it alive...for now.

[@myyoutubeaccount1493]

Cartoon saloon is also a really good 2d animation studio

[@tallemajas]

there are definitely still some lovely 2d movies being made in the west! klaus (2019) comes to mind, but my girlfriend who's a french speaker also tells me there are quite a few decent ones from france that have come out in the past decade, like you mentioned (France is also "the west"!) there's less of them for sure because the big studios aren't doing them, but not all is lost

[@pennysanchez7656]

@@myyoutubeaccount1493 They're criminally underrated.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

But is Turning Red a sign that anime studios are going to go all 3D as well?!

[@pennysanchez7656]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 Turning Red is from Pixar. You're maybe confusing it with Earwig and the Witch.

[@lonellfletcher]

A lot of what you said is how I feel about superhero movies; the dated, half-hearted humor. The "relatable" characters. These things have actually drained these films of personality for me and I believe they will age worse than people realize.

[@error-try-again-later]

Joss Whedon has a lot to answer for when it comes to current writing trends.

[@scrubbingbubbies]

SO TIRED of the marvel effect. There’s no substance. You can’t just kill a character off because you need “an emotional moment” im tired of it. I’m tired of the mcu and I want individual character films where we can actually get a focus on who the heroes are and their backstory. I haven’t seen any dc films lately so I hope they’re doing it better than marvel is. Like with the Batman movie that came out couple years ago

[@obsidianagent]

I think the main problem Marvel has is that you are required to watch ALL of it to fully understand things, but they try to hit different target audiences, too. I absolutely love "Loki"... but I fully understand not everybody does! But, more importantly, Loki does very much NOT share a target audience with "Ms Marvel"! And STILL to fully understand what is going on, people will end up having to know what happened in both! I by now know I should possibly watch Quantummania... but I am absolutely not feeling the desire to do so! The huge interconnected Universe and Storyline is, at this point, hurting them more than it helps. And that is really sad, because there are still things happening that I just enjoy. For me, it was Loki, Werewolf by Night, the Guardians of the Galaxy movies and Wakanda Forever that just worked. And I would hate to lose those pieces of media that are anjoyable to ME because they lost too many people because nobody knows the plot anymore.

[@TheFedzOohNoo]

@@error-try-again-later joss whedon and his consequences have been a disaster for the human race

[@merrymermaid]

@@scrubbingbubbiesthe sü1cide squad from 2021 directed by james gunn was really good because it was so different from all the recent superhero stuff. highly recommend watching

[@MyHam-os4bq]

I am so happy you mentioned how people "don't give children enough credit" when it comes to understanding characters' nuanced personalities. Ever since Frozen happened, I've been feeling like all those "quirky, modern" princesses had the kind of personality that perhaps millennial moms are supposed to look at and say "omg that's such a cute personality for kids to watch." and like there is nothing else to those characters

[@justsomeone9667]

I'm going to info dump- But I have to say it cause I can't stop thinking about it and i want to extinguish it through here. I read posts (specifically from Tumblr) when Frozen was at its height and made me unable to stop thinking about it while stringing thwm along in one giant farm of bunnies. There was a theory where Hans was never evil but instead he was manipulated by the trolls' magic because they want Anna to end up with Kristoff. Kristoff having to come into terms with what his family has done and his family not seeing why he's upset which leads to Kristoff wondering if he should even continue pursuing Anna because now their relationship was built on deceit. This could even connect to Elsa having startling realization that Hans could never make those metals bounds on her hands in time and could reveal that it was her parents who made those. Else still loves her parents but she has to come into terms what they could've done if Elsa wasn't able to control her powers. Elsa trying to be happy in her castle alone but fails miserably. Despite her playing with her magic, she realizes how alone she is. She became so lonely that she often hears Anna's voice, the servants footsteps, and the sound of clinking utensils set outside her door. We should also have a moment with Anna that her happily and cheery outlook breaks because there's gotta be a time the dam breaks and all the issues are coming down on her like an avalanche at once. Oh, she's having nightmares from her real memeries clashing with the fake memories. There can be a part where Anna teies to fix everything but realizes she can't help others if she herself is drowning

[@arishachoudhury_]

@@justsomeone9667 ok i really hate the hans isnt evil theory idk it just feels so wrong

[@justsomeone9667]

@@arishachoudhury_ It's fine, to each their own :)))

[@kaesijoo444]

exactly like i'm a 16 year old girl and i'm going to be honest, if any girl in my school acted the way these "quirky" princesses do, they would get flamed and bullied to no end LMFAO. it's so cringy watching adults at disney try and portray princesses who are supposed to be 16-18 and it's like... have you even MET a teenager ???

[@mazzyraaymakers7908]

I think they genuinely did a good thing with Tangled, where they took this clueless and sheltered girl and showed that her naiveté and optimism are strengths, and she accomplished her goals through the sheer force of being herself and learned how to not let people take advantage of her. But God almighty did Disney take the blueprint of her personality and copy and paste it until it lost all nuance.

[@donaldwright8567]

Honestly, the only movies that I've felt gave me that classic "Disney" feel in the past couple years are "Klaus" and "The Sea Beast", both in Netflix. Spa Studios, which animated "Klaus", was actually started by an ex-Disney snimatore

[@josephdeseta]

True Klaus is so underrated/unknown 🙏

[@meredithsmakings3068]

Two of my favorite movies of all time. Netflix knows what they’re doing in the animation department.

[@yoursjuli]

sea beast was rly good, klaus has been on my list since it was RELEASED and i know it's so good and so underrated but the ND department in my brain says ✨️no✨️ every year. i am literally going to make myself watch it this year no matter what 😩

[@croissant2882]

Im deeply in conflict with Klaus because the story and the animation are both amazing BUT i cannot make peace with how they represented the very much still hate crimed and discriminated Saami people The little Saami girl only speaks in her langauge and doesn't even have subtitles, she's basically filling the role of the funny animal that doesn't speak but chirps and then her tribe takes the role of the christmas elves and they make toys for the white people The animation is incredible, but that whole part... It really made me uncomfortable

[@simplesimply3753]

Yes Sea Beast was good. Reminded me of Treasure Planet.

[@margoalex.]

I genuinely think Disney animation has gone downhill ever since Howard Ashman. He was the guy who brought a musical theatre background into the production of these films and thus caused the massive Disney renaissance with movies like the Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast. But he died of AIDS while Beauty and the Beast was still in production and it seems like Disney has been struggling to keep up the momentum he caused ever since then.

[@thirdcoinedge]

Howard Ashman was a great composer. There's a reason why the films he worked on are considered some of Disney's best. Still, it would be unfair to say that the other films of the Renaissance are not of a similar artistic quality to those imo, i.e. The Lion King, Tarzan, and The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The films of the late 2000s to mid 2010s were also pretty good, mainly Tangled, Wreck it Ralph, Frozen, and Moana for me.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

They should have hired Danny Elfman for more Disney movies. He can do music AND lyrics. He wrote his own movies apart from Nightmare Before Christmas but they cancelled them because they didn’t know what a hit Nightmare was.

[@reginaldforthright805]

I agree Miranda sucks

[@mollusckscramp4124]

That's so sad, RIP Howard Ashman

[@yoursjuli]

oh my god i at first misread this as a criticism of howard ashman & was about to go in 😭 but you're exactly right. so so sad we lost him to the aids crisis :( 🫶🏻

[@aacmbirdzilla2343]

Let's be honest, I'm 100% sure that wish wouldn't have had that combination of 3D and 2D animation if Spider-verse didn't revolutionized the animation landscape

[@GreenBeanDragon]

That’s how progress works

[@seeexy]

​​@@GreenBeanDragon u mean, having no original ideas.

[@seeexy]

glad some one have said that

[@jeffersonhassan4558]

Actually even before the first spiderverse movie came out,they announced they were bringing back 2D for their 100 anniversary celebration so it was already in the works, Spider verse just happened to have a better success for them to mirror now

[@CarlaButow]

Yeah, I hate that all animations studios “Are changing their animation style to be more unique” when they literally just saw Spider verse’s success and are imitating that.

[@TwinRiver100]

I kind of liked the non-overt villain idea for a few Disney movies, thought they kind of worked and were an interesting change of pace. But I think they need to bring back the overt villains again. I kind of remember when Jack Horner showed up from Puss in Boots, there was a big welcome for him becasue of how unapologetically evil he was with no desire for redemption or understanding.

[@blacksesamecandies]

I know a lot of people have been missing the villians. At one time people just didnt want the stereotypical bad-guys anymore and wouldn't stfu (at least a vocal minority did). But I think Disney felt so much backlash for making their antagonists so obvious, ugly or formulalic they decided to try to do something else and just remove antagonists for many films. There is still an antagonist in Moana, Tangled and Frozen but films like Encanto and Raya didn't really have a central bad guy. Plus they started getting less and less screen time. So yeah, I dunno audiences are fickle, they should switch up having a badass villian then having the conflict come from within - instead of trying to one trend for too long.

[@jr5599]

I think there is a bigger issue at play here that goes through the enitire entertainment industry and it's been going on for quite some time. I call it the Gregory McGuire/Wicked effect. The villian as hero. They aren't bad, just misunderstood. We have seen this everywhere, not just in Disney films. Disney really picked up on it in their live action remakes like Maleficent and Cruella. No one does the old fashioned one-dimensional cardboard villian anymore. It's more nuanced now.

[@juliad857]

I think of the new, tiresome brand of Disney humour as as using pause-jokes. They're not jokes that fits with the flow of narrative. A good example of a "flow joke" would be Gaston's "there aren't even any pictures!" when looking at the book. It's a natural response for his character, and it pushes the dialogue forward. Another in BATB would be "but she's being so difficult." It's a genuinely funny line, but it's funny BECAUSE it's a realistic drama-queen response from Beast and it's PART of the conversation. An example of a "pause joke" is anytime a character does/says something jokey, and THE ENTIRE NARRATIVE PAUSES TO ABSORB IT. I imagine it exactly how the trailer portrays it -- there's a record scratch in music as the joke is shoehorned in, with presumable reaction shots from the other characters. And the joke isn't something that fits naturally -- it's not a joke in the story. The joke is, literally "isn't this funny that we've put this zany, modern humour here?" The joke's PRESENCE is the joke, if you know what I mean. I imagine Disney as someone next to me in the theatre, turning to grin at me every time a joke plays out, waiting for me to laugh at the hashtag-relatability. You can see a bit of these kinda jokes in older Disney, but they'd usually be confined to the sidekick. The issue is that new Disney ALSO has those zany, joking side-kicks, so it's just this CONSTANT inability to take their story seriously. It's lack of confidence in both the story's ability to hold attention, and lack of confidence in the audience to PAY attention. What Disney fails to see is that we've never, ever NEEDED those jokes. They're good and fun in moderation, but never necessary. And I know this, because Studio Ghibli exists, and has made some of the best children's animation of all time without any (or very little) "zany humour" at all. Kids are smart, and they love being taken seriously, and I think Disney has forgotten that.

[@briskettacos]

You have summed up this problem so precisely and succinctly.

[@presentlycrescent]

Disney needs to take a step back and remember their roots, learn from Dreamworks and Ghibli Because you’re exactly right Nowadays, Disney has forgotten that children can not only handle mature themes, but they WANT to. Dreamworks villians are always BRILLIANT because they are scary with depth and personality and legitimate driving forces as antagonists. Ghibli doesn’t coddle the audience with cushy, overly kid-friendly themes. Despite being almost entirely based around fantasy and magic, Ghibli films are grounded in reality. They’re relatable. And those little nods to harsh, scary, and difficult things that children do face makes it feel like the writers understand children. The movie gets them. Even if Disney never goes back to 2D (which is tragic imo) they can absolutely still make original films that are as timeless as old Disney. They just have to remember these basics. Embrace the antagonist, embrace the dichotomy of dark and light, make things *intense* Create a diverse cast of deep, realistic characters. You can always do some suspension if disbelief in how they act because movie characters don’t always behave like real life, but in-universe they have to be believable When it comes to jokes and comedy, it has to be natural. Disney isn’t a standup comedy show, the jokes shouldn’t be the main point. They’re there to add a little laugh amidst the overall story. And for goodness sake, do NOT focus on TRENDS. Trendy jokes/phrases/styles are what can kill something that would be otherwise timeless because in the future when it falls out of fashion, it’ll be cringy and uncomfortable

[@steamboatwill3.367]

​@@presentlycrescent) you didn't see Encanto.

[@presentlycrescent]

@@steamboatwill3.367 I did actually and I honestly did enjoy it, but encanto also does still have its issues. The music is great and the family drama is wonderful, but the story itself didn’t feel super urgent to me because there wasn’t really any dire risk involved. “They could lose their miracle, oh no, I guess they gotta live like everyone else in the valley lmao. How awful” And in the end, when it did happen, it didn’t feel like a big deal. The magic and the main issue in the movie wasn’t as important as abuela being abusive and controlling. With that in mind, it also made the miracle coming back fall super flat to me. It didn’t feel like much of a reward for anything imo Again, I did love the music and I really like the message stated, but as a story overall it didn’t stick out for me. I’m positive that other people disagree and to people with Colombian or other Latinx heritage I can definitely see why they would feel strongly about it because of the representation, and that’s fine!

[@EngineerMonkeyBTD6]

​@@presentlycrescentI liked that movie solely because the characters resembled me in appearance. I'm not even Latino, though. I just like when characters look like me. :P

[@drymeee]

It’s actually depressing to realize Disney really lost its recipe, there’s a reason I and a lot of folks adore old Disney sm. Characters had depth, vilains were vilaining & the song actually made you feel things

[@TotalHooman]

I will forever enjoy Hellfire from hunchback

[@drymeee]

@@TotalHooman if you liked the English version, the French version will have you on your knees

[@catdownthestreet]

If you have the time to watch a show, The Owl House exists and it's managed to hit that sweet spot where the characters can be goofy and deep at the same time. I can't even fully hate the main villain because he's just so good at his job. Highly recommend it if you like weird and goofy characters with a side of trauma

[@houndofculann1793]

I think Moana and Encanto still nailed it but the same elements won't really work in every movie. I think what we really need is a healthily rotating mix of both kinds of storytelling instead of just one or the other. But all of them also need good writing, obviously.

[@drymeee]

@@catdownthestreet did actually watch it when it came out but the story just wasn’t really of my liking unfortunately. The character designs though are incredible but yeah not a big fan of it unfortunately

[@adrianoctavio]

Wreck it Ralph is my favorite Disney movie, and I feel like it's a great example of how you can still have all the themes of trauma and growing from it while still having a villain. You can still have the reconstruction of the game and the scene where Ralph breaks the car, while still having someone like King Candy to reflect the themes and make the movie still feel like a complete package. Ironic considering what the second movie didn't have.

[@error-try-again-later]

Wreck-it Ralph also dealt with its themes in a much better way than "just be nice" lmao

[@z.s.r.h]

SUCH a good movie!!!

[@DaNintendude]

Yeah it's honestly fantastic. You could have even like... 3 villains in a movie, and still have a focus on the protagonist's internal struggles. Disney seems to have forgotten that it can do both, and that it did it wonderfully with Wreck-it-Ralph

[@JamesTDG]

Agreed. That second film will forever anger me whenever I see it

[@heyitsmace]

I also really like Meet The Robinsons

[@lunasuji]

I know Coco is Pixar but it's a pretty good example of both generational conflict and a great villain in the same movie! Aaaand we get to watch his personality be over the top and fun despite him being a twist villain so that makes it pretty good imo. Trauma and internal conflict are often caused by external events so why not play that up more? Because like you said, it would get real and "political".

[@nesspyr]

pixar is so good at telling "real" stories! and slowly but surely they're deviating from the as-realistic-as-possible 3D animation in favor of more artistic interpretations (soul, turning red, luca, etc.)

[@kayleetillett7401]

I think the issue is that the movies originally weren't necessarily JUST for kids--they were for families! As in, the parents, kids, older relatives, cousins, siblings, etc., all watched it together and enjoyed it. The new Disney movies feel more like the kind of thing only a toddler would really enjoy. It's just sad.

[@SerenaLunaStar]

You're so right. It's why I only watch old Disney movies w/ my 5 year old sister instead of the newer ones. ^^'

[@Attmay]

It didn’t have to be that way. The advanced photo transfer system developed for *The Black Cauldron* smoothed out a lot of the rough edges of the early years of the Xerography progress, and it was still used up until *The Little Mermaid.*

[@rclrd1]

“I do not make films primarily for children. I make them for the child in all of us, whether we be six or sixty.” - Walt Disney.

[@andyshouldbewriting]

I'm hardly a Disney adult but I was an insane Disney kid. It's sad to see them turn so beige. You hit the nail on the head when you said that it's partly because of a lack of a provocative villain. Kids need to see bad people with bad traits to know it's bad. You can get it from other media but animation was so magical to me. It still is but not how Disney is doing it. My favourite Disney's are The Little Mermaid, Aladdin and The Emperor's New Groove. Honourable mention to The Princess and the Frog 💚

[@error-try-again-later]

"Kids need to see that bad traits are bad" _thank you._ Obviously the "no true villain" narrative isn't ALWAYS bad (just look at Lilo and Stitch) but the current push to show everyone as flawed and needing to be forgiven, no matter what they did, is incredibly toxic. Especially when the script is as bad as Raya's. Kids shouldn't be concerned about how sad and tormented an abuser is, they should know to get tf away from them.

[@spontaneouslycombusted7664]

Help me this comment is exactly what i needed to see,, but i read it as "bald people with bald traits to know it's bald" and was very confused 😭

[@andyshouldbewriting]

@@error-try-again-later Yess! It sounds so simple but the classic Disney villains were horrible when you look at it through adult eyes 😅 Everything is about self doubt or belief, which is fine but a really cool villain who's just plainly evil so is much more interesting.

[@andyshouldbewriting]

@@spontaneouslycombusted7664 😂😂

[@nightkelm9552]

YES 🙌 I’m so sick of there being villains, or “villains” that are being forgiven, for example as much as I really liked Encanto I was so angry that Abuela was forgiven like that, heck nobody even blamed her, even Mirabel who had the only guts to confront her and was lashing out on her would later blame not Abuela but HERSELF for the issue, when she was the only one who actually made it to the candle and could have died. Even if Abuela is sorry she abused the family, and didn’t even properly apologize to Bruno, in fact NOBODY apologized to him, even though he jammed to the song he hid away for the family but stayed because he loved them. We need to see more bad people, villains in Disney again, because there IS and will always be bad people, and if they want to be better we can’t have them being forgiven so easily, because the damage is not as tolerable as seen in shows

[@SaraAguilar14]

i do agree that a disney movie without an "enemy" are great as well, but lilo and stitch did have a part of a villain with captain gantu, basically a lot of the aliens started with an opposite agenda to lilo and stitch's, so we did have the "evil" part checked. even the little girls that bullied lilo, we knew which character were doing good, bad and neutral things, that's basically what they need to do now.

[@midnightrant7487]

I don't think it's accurate to call them villains. Maybe Captain Gantu, but due to his limited roll (parts of the beginning and a little at the end), I feel he plays more the roll of an antagonistic force than down right villain. Especially since he was just following orders from the galactic confederation, he didn't have a personal vendetta like Scar, Jafar, Ursula, etc.

[@cjbsims]

@@midnightrant7487 Right exactly! Gantu was an antagonist, but his motivation was to retrieve a dangerous weapon created by a criminal scientist from a primitive civilisation, so I don't think you would label his actions "evil villain". The only "evil" part was when he captured Lilo, too.

[@LordofFullmetal]

This. Literally as I was watching the video, I was like "... Wait a second. Does Gantu not count as the villain?" He gets the big battle at the end and everything. He's also the main antagonist of the tv show.

[@camipco]

Yeah, lots of the examples have villains, they just aren't the main antagonist. Frozen has Hans, Moana has Tamatoa and Te Kā, Raya has the shadow monster things, Namaari and Namaari's mom. Hans is probably the most traditionally villain of these.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

​@@cjbsims) that wasn't on purpose tho.

[@natie3322]

It’s strange… the more Disney Executives actually become Disney Villains in real life the less they want to show them being vanquished on screen…

[@annikan42]

Spoiler alert, they've been villains the whole time lol. I think we tend to underestimate the company's past because we're more aware of what happens in our day-to-day than we were when we were younger

[@ExtremeWreck]

@@annikan42 It makes sense. History tends to repeat itself a lot.

[@otterzrkuhl]

The part about quirky protagonists reminds me of when Frozen came out. I was about 10 (I cannot believe Frozen came out that long ago) and I loved the movie. Anyway my mom took dance classes at the time and I went with and was chilling in the lounge area and some other moms were talking and said something like "Why do girls only like Elsa? Anna is the hero! They only care about Elsa because she has powers and a sparkly dress!!" and at the time I didn't know how to explain, but this video helps. I did like Anna even as a kid because she was fun and determined, but Elsa is the far more interesting character because she's sad and worried and afraid of herself. Somehow these grown adults couldn't understand why kids would be more interested in that than the adorkable younger sister. I think you're right that these quirky characters are for adults because kids want to see the complex personalities (not that Anna doesn't have interesting aspects).

[@anothermiddleschoolburnout8816]

I'm so glad someone put it into words

[@Twat_Dirt]

She's not wrong about that as that was the only reason I cared about Elsa lol

[@otterzrkuhl]

@Tendenc1 well the character designs also factor in. I just think it was kind of dismissive to assume that's all kids cared about.

[@error-try-again-later]

Anna _is_ a more sympathetic character than Elsa tho.

[@otterzrkuhl]

@error-try-again-later i didn't say she's not sympathetic and in fact I went out of my way to say I'm not insulting Anna because I wanted to avoid the internet reactionaries who think any compliment is simultaneously the insult of something else

[@portiabartel]

Modern Disney is STERILIZED. In every sense of the word. My favorite Disney movies were Treasure Planet and Hunchback. Hunchback especially was VERY dark, but the thing I think people have forgotten, that someone made a tiktok about once, was that like.......it's ok to introduce kids to a little bit of darkness. A bit of scary. We're so obsessed with protecting the kids from what we *think* will give them trauma, that we're just treating them like babies that can't handle depth. Hate sounding like a boomer right now, I'm 31, but where are the spooky kids going to get their fix? The weird kids, the goth kids, the freaking drama kids, I feel like these personalities really start at our core. 😅 Many kids crave good stories and they don't realize it cause they're fed this bland cookie-cutter stuff Disney keeps putting out. Kids understand more than Disney thinks they do.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

At least you don't (seem to) think there's some agenda to "turn kids gay/trans"

[@ExtremeWreck]

@@steamboatwill3.367 Yeah I agree. I mean, The Owl House actually gets dark & that's a Walt Disney Television Animation production(although I usually refuse to call it a "Disney cartoon" because Bob Paycheck treated it like it was nothing even though it had good ratings).

[@ignorant1126]

The point about quirky protagonists in Disney films is so accurate. When rewatching Frozen, I actually had some whiplash seeing a character like Elsa. She's reserved, formal and calm. With every step there's grace, and when she's upset she has to physically turn her body away, like she's afraid of others seeing her as weak. That kind of respectable personality was seen in Belle, Pocahontas and Mulan. Nowadays that's so very, very rare that it gave me a shock to see. Anna though 😅

[@kelseyjaffer]

i think it worked in Frozen since Elsa was there to balance Anna out and vice versa, and it worked for Rapunzel because she was so sheltered and was encountering the world for the first time. but i think Disney saw movies with "quirky" characters working and decided to put them in everything, totally ignoring WHY they worked in those specific contexts! where are the genuinely shy and awkward characters, the ones with grace and a standard to uphold like Elsa, or the ones with idk, anger issues or something? they could be exploring so many things, but nah

[@ignorant1126]

@@kelseyjaffer Oh how rare it is to see a character like Meg in Hercules. Sassy, sarcastic and confident. More of this please 😭 I also appreciated Merida in Brave since she wasn't 'quirky' but brash and passionate. She knows what she wants, and she will see red if she doesn't get it

[@GuiltlessGear]

@@ignorant1126 thats just being scottish

[@arishachoudhury_]

anna an elsa were the best princess duo, they balanced formal and graceful with quirky and weird perfectly

[@Zeverinsen]

You know, the worst part for me is that I loved the original story about the Ice Witch, and honestly I was sad that they made it into whatever Frozen is, instead of going the way of the older Disney movies, like Ariel, and just sanding down the edges of the original darkness a little bit. They had a perfectly good story sitting there ripe for the taking, and messed it up IMO.

[@chelmrtz]

They don’t make these movies for kids anymore. They make them for Disney adults. That’s why the movies are like this now

[@pinkerhero]

that's a good point. kids deserve better.

[@mynameisreallycool1]

Literally. Why are they prioritizing adults over kids? It just seems unfair for the kids of today.

[@CalvinChikelue]

I’d say a big part of their mindset is simply that we’re the ones with the disposable income. They’ve squeezed out an immense amount of quality & creativity in exchange for just appealing to marketing demographic statistic as to which sector of the population can give the highest return with bare minimum effort.

[@TozheiAmen-Ra]

To be fair, they were family films. It’s just easier to make money off the kids.

[@yc0995]

That's so disrespectful to animation. Guillermo del Toro said it best: "animation is a medium" and to box it as for kids or adults robs it of the potential it has to be used for great storytelling

[@bigdingus708]

you bring a good point that a lot of ppl haven't been saying when talking about modern Disney-- we DONT give children enough credit for what they are able to comprehend! a lot of the worst disney villains are campy manifestations of real life evils that everyone will have to face one day and seeing the principles how to deal with them (yknow the moral of the story) is genuinely useful and formative!! plus they were so cool like what the fuck!!!!!!

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

I don’t think most people have to face abusive foster parents like Mother Gothel

[@Cherri_Stars]

​@@nuclearcatbaby1131 maybe not like mother Gothel in particular. But many people have had parents who were too over-protective, or led with too much self-interest. So there's still a lot to take from the story

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

@@Cherri_Stars Seriously I nearly ended up in an abusive conservatorship and if I had I wouldn’t be allowed to use the internet to be speaking with you right now. That’s what happened to my twin sister.

[@alaina4070]

@nuclearcatbaby1131 You can have abusive partners or authority figures like Gothel in your life though. It's a good movie that displays and explains abuse to children and not dumbing it down so much. Even your "friends" can be your abuser.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

@@alaina4070 I wonder if my twin sister ever got to see it. I’m amazed the abuser even let us read A Series of Unfortunate Events or watch the movie in theaters as I could see the parallels between her and Count Olaf.

[@sliphstream4927]

Walt Disney (the man) had questionable working conditions and nearly bankrupt the company more than once. However, the man had an ARTISTIC VISION that was unparalleled for the time and used that vision to create a studio that made timeless classics. Today's Disney (the company) has shelved artistic vision in favor of profit margins, quarterly earnings reports, and focus-group thinking. The end result is products that are homogenized, safe, and forgettable.

[@Sohalia06]

That's how every major damn company is nowadays. I fucking HATE it. Even Warner Brothers administration wants to just... not release a completely finished movie just so they can get a tax write-off for the "wasted" work?? They make ENOUGH money! Quit being fucking greedy!!

[@Tornado1994]

Disney needs to have A DISNEY in the Chairboard, which is what was the Case until 2009.

[@taladayarts]

I feel like a great example of how villains are still appreciated and can become box office hits is Puss in Boots 2. You can still have characters that are terrifying or just downright mean, and audiences of all ages can still enjoy it. I think it's a shame that Disney hasn't picked up on that. But Disney would rather repackage and resell their previous successes until even the kids eventually stop watching -- a trend Hollywood studios have followed time and time again, and never ends well.

[@happyhaunt6659]

To be fair, wish was in production before puss in boots 2 came out. If they picked up on the reaction to that movie, we will see it in a year or so

[@icantthinkofanything798]

That’s why I am so impressed with Puss in Boots 2 and still managing to keep the anti-Disney thing that the Shrek franchise began all the way back in 2001. Disney nowadays is known for having no villains, so The Last Wish stuck it to them and added 3 different villains, all with different roles and motivations

[@linkfan160]

My favourite Disney film is The Hunchback of Notre Dame because it's possibly the only Disney animated film that doesn't feel like Disney at all. It doesn't dumb things down for kids, it doesn't try to pander to the mainstream, it's very mature, and dark and different and I love it for that. It's by no means a perfect film (I fast forward every time the Gargoyles show up), but the music and the visual style alone make it magnificent, and I think Frollo is a contender for the best Disney villain of all time. Disney will never make a film like that ever again, I guarantee it. They just don't have the courage to branch out and try something different like they did back then anymore.

[@chappellgroan]

Disney animation peaked with Hellfire

[@lenosflarrethedragonking4300]

Except for the gargoyles, they sucked.

[@gruel_summer]

If more people knew who Alan Menken is, they'd be even more critical of the music in recent movies. That man carried this studio throughout most of the Renaissance era. I cry just thinking about his impact on film and theater.

[@Attmay]

Disney has basically reduced him to a figurehead they drag out every now and then to remind people of happier times. See also: Richard M. Sherman.

[@Schmoozr]

Don’t forget Howard Ashman, either! Him and Menken were a musical duo made in heaven and were MASSIVE in getting Disney back on track in the late 80’s-early 90’s. I get he’s long since passed, but it feels like the company just tries to shove him under the rug. Makes me so sad…

[@jeffersonhassan4558]

Why are you talking as if Lin haven't given his best? Like the Renaissance era is the only one people love

[@alim.9801]

Howard Ashman as well, RIP

[@Prior2Popular]

SO TRUE. Alan Menkin has wrote more well-known bangers for performative arts and film than people realize

[@iain9757]

Strange World, the Disney movie which came out same time last year BOMBED and was STILL incredible controversial because there’s two scenes where the teenage male character talked about dating someone of the same sex. That film BOMBED because Disney didn’t market it and there was STILL DRAMA & even teachers got into trouble for showing it

[@IloveLanadelReyforever]

Okay I know that strange world was done dirty but I was so bored watching it.

[@IloveLanadelReyforever]

So like I can kinda see why it bombed like I tried watching it and I stopped not even halfway through

[@kiti_uwuowo1619]

yes, i remember, tbh it felt like the conservatives were saying that it bombed for those scenes, but also for many people it was weird to us that a movie with queer topics was not advertised at all, it feels like disney is trying to make everyone happy, and i honestly think they should just either stick to the left or the right, because being neutral is not working for them. And this is a problem that makes me really not like disney, because trying to be good with both sides it's making both sides not trust disney, we have seen their hipocresy like canceling the owl house and turning 3 seasons into 3 SPECIALS, suporting a homophonic politician, not advertising strange world, etc. but then the conservatives think disney it's "too woke" for a 0.4 sec kiss in the backround and the skin of an actrees, or talking about periods. it honestly feels like conservatives cry and then the others are deprived of enjoying content because they can't deal with the existence of a person of color, a queer person, or a woman. and disney wanting to be good with both sides just makes everyone unhappy and not trust them.

[@kiti_uwuowo1619]

i kinda want a lot more of barbie movie like content, because i remember conservatives crying over a doll that was "too woke". while everyone enjoyed it, there was something about that unapologetical vibe that was sooooooooo good. and it shows that disney is too scared of changing that perspective of trying to make everyone happy and not taking risks. wich in my opinion just sucks for everyone

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

@@kiti_uwuowo1619 I don’t even see how it’s too Woke. The main Barbie and Ken still look like an Aryan poster couple.

[@bl_kiki7483]

I really appreciate you doing a comparison on the acting. Disney used to be known for their Character Acting. They built a whole program at Calarts based on it. However, it really does seem Disney lost the art of "acting". Everyone acts the same. Same elasticity to their expressions. No nuance or subtle anymore, and when subtle is done, it's the same little eye darts every time. Not saying this is a good take (actually, it's a bad take) but old disney animators used to dislike anime because they felt the expressions and acting could be too much the same. I'd argue disney is now worse at this than anime has ever been. Sure, anime has some "stock expressions" but theres no way you can watch a miyazaki movie, cowboy bebop, even a naruto, and not notice some great acting between the characters. Disney homogonized all of their character acting, so that the lead, the villain, and side kicks all emote the exact same way. My other grievance is that the 3 songs they've unveiled have been super underwhelming. Disney's doing the "we need pop songs instead of actual narrative songs" that plagues broadway right now. How disappointing. Disney used to be innovators. They were THE forefront of animation for so long. But disney hasn't added anything new to medium in well over a decade. and when they do, it's small things like the technology to make snow look like snow in frozen. Which is cool and helpful, but there were times when story, character, and art were all being pushed. Now, it's safe at best, regressive at it's worst. sorry, for this maybe incoherent ramble. this is a very special interest for me as a huge disney animation nerd and someone who works in animation. so I just...have a lot of thoughts on the subject 😅 edit: sorry, one last thing about why the films feel weird now: they go through about 15 script passes each film. At that point, the films just feel overworked to death. Most people in the industry say the first one is always the best, since it always captures the essence the best of what the original vision is.

[@cynical_chai8922]

nono i love this observation

[@error-try-again-later]

As an anime fan I agree with their take on the static faces tbh. Not that Disney's current way of animating is much better. Music-wise they're appealing to the people who _want_ to be Broadway nerds without actually being Broadway nerds.

[@t1mburt0nsdandruff]

Thank you!! I don’t get why Disney makes pop songs for new movies, like I get pop music is popular, but it doesn’t even work in a Disney Princess film. (Also modern pop songs are generic and gross)

[@felicityb93]

The reason Disney has become so stale and mediocre is that they've grown too large to fail. They have no one to challenge them. It doesn't matter if there are other studios in the industry doing higher quality/innovative work; their output is seen as inherently inferior because it's Not Disney^TM. That's how monopolies work. It's painfully ironic, if you ask me.

[@catarinagervasio]

Thank you for the narrative songs x pop songs observation. That’s so true!! I need to feel that character’s feeling in that song and how that It’s important for their journey just like in Hercules’ songs, for example! Where’s that magic? That’s what we want!!!

[@AlexReynard]

You do have a point about Disney avoiding villains for political reasons. Remember that Zootopia's villain was a politician who was entrapping innocent citizens to commit terrorist acts in a grand scheme to sow division and start a race war. I still cannot believe that Zootopia got released. Its insights into prejudice and forgiveness and how the bullied can become the bully if they hold onto grudges are just jaw-dropping.

[@goose_president5504]

zootopia was a good movie

[@Yohan99999]

​@goose_president5504 its also genuinely batshit insane in retrospect

[@goose_president5504]

@@Yohan99999 yeah it was actually supposed to be a lot darker where they had these shock collars on all the predators there's some early footage that got entirely cut that is on KZbin of this and it's just really depressing and sad to watch

[@poppythedogofwonders]

You know, I never realised that, Bellwether really was committing whole ass chemical terrorist attacks wasn't she? Directly on screen. To provoke an actual no joke no shade race war. Jesus.

[@Wishtelle]

yeah, its such a crazy movie that i remember being confused when it took a COMPLETELY different turn in the second act. great movie.@@goose_president5504

[@elle1107]

I remember there being a bit of backlash/discourse around the villain in Princess and the Frog - the voodoo/"dark" theme turned a lot of people off. But his song was so fun and evil and entertaining. Felt like the last real "meany" song. The fact that it lines up with the end of 2D Disney is really interesting.

[@Attmay]

That movie misrepresented voodoo in ways even *The Cosby Show* did not.

[@denjis_left_nut]

Dr Facilier was so cool man

[@alexaburks]

And mother knows best from Tangled is truly a showstopping performance, it’s really a shame

[@ariellau9170]

friends on the other side is genuinely one of the best villains songs imo

[@tsuki3752]

it’s such a good song. i think it would’ve been better if they had tiana or mama odie also have ties with voodoo (maybe tiana did but lost it as she grew up and mama odie reintroduced her to it? and showed her that it’s not bad?) and the same could be said for all other disney villains. if ursula isn’t their only drag queen inspired character then ppl wouldn’t find it offensive.

[@SilentSong123]

I've said this a lot but Wish feels way more like an illumination film than Disney's hundredth anniversary film and that's just sad

[@Attmay]

You mean because the star in this movie looks similar to the one from the Mario movie?

[@Not_Kaitlyn]

​@@Attmayno because it looks subpar at best and atrocious at worst.

[@underwirez]

100 years of pioneering the animation industry, 100 years of revolutionizing pop culture, 100 years of stories, magic, and memories.. and this is the thanks we get. :/

[@MadsterV]

Disney's paralyzing fear of offending anyone prevents them from writing compelling villains.

[@Ender__Wa]

When that is literally how you make a villain, offending people with your actions to an nth degree.

[@cc13556]

exactly, villains are SUPPOSED to be offensive!

[@Halfort57]

​@@cc13556then I wonder why don't they just use a straight white male like the rest of Hollywood

[@carlotta4th]

Also from writing good protagonists. "Quirky" is considered an acceptable flaw, but heaven forbid they have any actual flaws that should be explored or overcome in a character arc! How can I care about a protagonist if they don't seem human in any way? Rapunzel was too naive and unworldly, Mulan was upset with herself that she keeps disappointing her family, Jane was completely out of her proper British element in the jungle, Aurora was sophisticated and cultured. ...And Anna/Raya/Asha are adorkable and nothing else.

[@dashman8499]

I appreciate that characters like Lilo and even Rapunzel were quirky in a way that deepened their character. Rapunzel had no idea how to communicate with people outside so it leads to her being a mix of clumsy and overly trusting and it leads to alot of comedic moments that clash with Flynn who doesn't trust anyone. Lilo is a weird kid but it is supported by her coming from a broken home, and it hurts more because of how much we see Nani try to fix it. Comedic moments used to be another way to develop characters but now it's just a way to break tension and appeal to kids, but kids LIKE tension. Kids want to be entertained, I remember as a kid when Scar killed Mufasa I was scared but I wanted to see this lion get folded. I just miss when we could have a dramatic moment that was raw and it wasn't undercut with humor.

[@jacqueblue]

Disney is trying to please everyone everywhere at one time. I would not watch this hot mess if it were free.

[@laurena9563]

Exactly. And by trying to please everyone, they're pleasing no one.

[@geoffreyrichards6079]

In times like these when society is even more divided then ever, appealing to the widest audience is probably a lost cause.

[@SarastistheSerpent]

⁠@@americanpatriot25people aren’t trying to segregate themselves, society does that for them. You can’t seriously be deluded enough to think that, for example, society is completely accepting of trans people and that it is trans people who want to segregate themselves.

[@gemstone108]

The movie’s not even out yet. How do you know it’s a hot mess? That seems quick to judge…

[@mr.x2567]

@@americanpatriot25we’re not segregating ourselves, we’re simply responding naturally to a rise in hate crimes and laws being passed that attack marginalized groups of people and the fact that people in power seem to only pretend that they care about the issue at best. Does that make sense?

[@joeberryman3563]

The developers of the Kingdom Hearts games must be pretty stressed too because they don't have any more Disney film villains to include as boss battles.

[@raheemaslam7363]

Either they’re gonna throw more heartless or just throw the foretellers at you

[@joeberryman3563]

Or FF villains

[@Sephioss]

Maybe that why in Kingdom Hearts 3 there supposed to be live action worlds .

[@Fantasmaa9]

I just hope they don't overdo the "cute small animal has deep voice WOAH!" trope because that thing can get so overdone so fast

[@Attmay]

It peaked on *Family Guy* with their “wrong-sounding Muppets” business.

[@dibidubu4168]

yeah. not enough people complaining about the goat. why tf does it wiggle its mfing eyebrows after showing off its low voice, like this thing is literally a baby goat? like ok disney sorry im not charmed by this baby animal that talks like a 12 year old boy trying out sexual harrassment for the first time? also that cocky one eyebrow raised expression boils my blood like nothing else. like it makes me feel physically bad. how come every disney character since rapunzel wont stop mocking me with that mfing face like do they think im stupid? sorry this comment is so vitriolic, ive just never been so angry

[@Fantasmaa9]

@@dibidubu4168 my guy are you doing ok- I get what you mean but which disney characters hurt you lol

[@dibidubu4168]

@@Fantasmaa9 THIS ONE. THIS ONE HURT ME. but yeah thanks im doing fine lol

[@arishachoudhury_]

@@dibidubu4168 real this isnt flynn rider, the goat voice kills me

[@TitanXecutor]

And Dreamworks made one of the best animated movies in years with Puss n Boots, and they had ACTUAL villains. How far Disney has fallen.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

You don't (always) NEED villians.

[@TitanXecutor]

@@steamboatwill3.367 I know, but it really feels like Disney is rejecting the idea of having villains

[@myphinisheris0waot]

@@steamboatwill3.367its the balance that makes both kinds of “villains” good

[@Scrofar]

I don't think a single person expected "a sequel of a spin-off of Shrek", in those exact words, would take the entire world by storm with just how shocknigly and sincerely good it is

[@TitanXecutor]

@@Scrofar Some of the best stuff comes in the most unexpected places

[@playlistsforbordem]

Yeah in 2016 Disney came to my art school to recruit and do a presentation and every question we asked was about the 2D studio, because most of us were 2D animators. They actually became really angry and rude about it and coldly ended with, "We have no plans to ever do a 2D movie again because Princess and the Frog wasn't as profitable as expected" (it still made money, just not AS much money) Once off the "magic of Disney" script they came to present they were actually very unpleasant. It really killed wanting to work for Disney for me. A I call bull that they "don't have the equipment" for it anymore. Sure, they're not going to physically hand paint each cel anymore, but the last time they did that was the Little Mermaid. With the 3D equipment they have now they could easily replicate the 2D style. They've been doing it with for years with their shorts and TV studio, and with the most recent Disney 100 short they proved they can even replicate the ink and paint style, even the sketchier 70s films. The real reason is most 3D effects people aren't unionized so they don't have to pay them as much. (edited typos)

[@Attmay]

I also detect a whiff of sexism in the elimination of the ink and paint department because historically it hired more women than any other part of Disney animation that I am aware of. Nowadays, they use its existence as evidence of sexism and therefore something to be ashamed of. Disney keeps moving the goalposts to justify destroying the thing that made their existence possible, and they moved it so many times, they’ve moved the whole stadium!

[@jeffersonhassan4558]

They can but will the audience receive it? That's the problem, Princess and the frog was a complete slap on their face

[@jeffersonhassan4558]

​@@Attmaysocial media gives everyone a voice to even point out the tiniest detail even if that's not true

[@erikdaniels0n]

I had not heard the “villain” song until now because I’ve been avoiding the song drops they’ve been doing, but genuinely, what the fuck did I just hear?? We want villain songs, but we want villain songs that sound *THEATRICAL*. At least with Encanto, Lin Manuel Miranda’s style kind of worked. This doesn’t fit at ALL

[@koteleskristof]

I don’t think that song is his villain song, it’s more so an introduction to his character before he turns out to be a bad guy. It’s probably gonna play in the first 20 mins of the movie

[@egg_bun_]

I thought it was done by chat gpt as a joke?

[@rinina]

LMM's style is very much theatrical but also modern, thats why it was so popular with old ass bway purists and was also accesible to a new crowd. Whatever wish is doing is just straight up, pop music lmao. Nothing wrong with musicals with a more contemporary sound (the pasek and paul musicals come to mind, even tho i dont like them) but i feel like even those had a bit more of... flair?? I wanna say??? The songs from wish feel like just going thru the motions of what a musical should have. Also chris pine is excelent in into the woods and also sings a bit in dungeons and dragons so i was so surprised when i heard his song??? Why does he sound Like That

[@Pan-oy2ck]

​Hamilton was much better than this, I don't know what Disney is trying to do with this, it sounds generic

[@pbjmochi8400]

@@koteleskristof Unfortunately, if the song order listed on the soundtrack is any indication, this won't be the case. It's closer to the middle, and there's no dark reprise or anything.

[@MezzoForte4]

The 'it's a kids movie' excuse HAS TO DIE!!! Walt FREAKING Disney said it himself, that animated works are for EVERYONE. To have a character have to constantly talk and fill the 'dead air' with something is insulting to audiences of all ages. I blame the lessening of attention spans due to social media that results in works not able to have quiet, introspective moments to make the audience think. It's like a disease, everywhere you look, it's full on goldfish-brain levels of engagement and instant gratification. It's depressing to think about how one of the most wonderful and magical forms of art/media has now become empty and vapid. Also my fave Disney movie... I'm not sure. I watched most of the Disney Renaissance movies a thousand times throughout my childhood, but probably The Lion King.

[@Hannahnicolesmith]

Yep!! I’m a teacher - kids will lose interest if they don’t have super easy jokes that explain themselves, but if Disney has the animation well done and colorful, kids will still watch it even if it has depth. They are just scared.

[@cactusmangaming]

walt disney was probably a racist bro 😂

[@kaninekodiak]

​​@@cactusmangaminghis unfortunate views on judaism did not, for the most part, affect his integrity as an artist. nor does it affect this argument. "animated films are for everyone" is a view held by most in the industry - just because one racist also said it, doesn't discredit it. yes, he was an antisemitic piece of garbage, but he was also a great artist. the two are, unfortunately, not mutually exclusive.

[@cactusmangaming]

@@kaninekodiak so EDP’s poetic shits are good even tho he is a pedo

[@deathdrivesapontiac]

It’s the old “Adorkable” thing that started in like 2010 in Big Bang Theory as well as Tangled. It caught on because it was unique and flawed and different for main characters, and they would always chuck in a line or two that people could relate to. That stuff would get posted all over Tumblr and Facebook, leading to the creation of “Oh my Disney”. Disney latched on that shit and went wild, thinking that no matter what they did they were invincible or something idk

[@Attmay]

I never cared for that show. *Futurama* is light years ahead of it in terms of doing STEM-related humor. And Jim Parsons is a sellout.

[@l33machine]

I was really shocked when I found out this was supposed to be Disney's big century film. While the backgrounds are beautiful, the character models feel very... Elena of Alavor. Great animation for a TV show.... noooot so much for a big screen movie. I will wait to see how the public responds to the movie before I consider watching the movie. The trailers left me feeling very underwhelmed, so I don't really want to see it. Unless it turns out to be much better than what many are anticipating.

[@Not_Kaitlyn]

The animation feels so unfinished and not even fully rendered like, wtf??? 😃

[@peyotebritta]

I think one of the reasons these modern Disney protagonists have these issues is the Disney Princess ™ brand itself. Disney Princesses didn’t become a marketing thing until 2000 (which is why a lot of them aren’t even princesses). So Tiana was the first princess created specifically to fit into this new marketing strategy. Ever since, the new princesses are increasingly written by committee to be as inoffensive and ‘likeable’ as possible. There’s a reason that Megara, Esmeralda and others are not in the lineup. They’re compelling but less ‘marketable’, they have more edge. But even princesses from before the 2000s were allowed more human flaws and diversity of personality. They were also allowed to exist more within the context of their own story but now they’re written to fit into an established brand / tone and to be relatable

[@jasperjazzie]

it sucks bc tiana and rapunzel are both great characters, in fact tiana is probably my favorite in the disney princess lineup, so clearly they can be both marketable and interesting characters, but then it goes downhill from there because they'd rather them be extra marketable at the expense of good characters rather than both things at once.

[@jackdavenport5011]

I think the main issue I have with Asha’s “quirkiness” is that she just feels like Mirabel or Anna again. Disney seems to just have a cookie cutter “female protagonist” personality that they just copy and paste unless their personality is somehow related to the movie’s themes like Raya.

[@juicebox7372]

She feels like neither actually. Her "quirkiness" feels fake, like super fake like the type of personality that a self called quirky person would act like to fit the perceived definition.

[@iain9757]

I feel Disney+ is also not helping because with the Disney vault sure it was pure capitalism but it made each movie AN EVENT. How can the Disney live action reimaginings be “reimagining classics for a new generation” when like 5 came out in 2019? I saw a good tiktok about how Disney doesn’t need to try because they already have favour with fans & critics. We aren’t gonna get Disneys Spider-Verse or Disneys Puss in Boots Last Wish.

[@croissant2882]

The reimaginings are a different topic altogether because Disney isn't doing them for nostalgia or "to see it live action" and other bullshit excuses Theyre doing them solely to prolong the ownership of copyrights. As long as they keep producing content based on the media, they prolong the ownership and they can sue everything and everybody into oblivion as long as the media is slightly similar to what they make. Theres no artistry, thats why live actions are so bad. Its all about money and predatory business practices

[@hannahyamauchi839]

When my sister was still a wee toddler, one of her on-repeat movie was Princess Mononoke. When a story is told with conviction, kids will be drawn to them, even when they still don't understand the full scope of the story being told.

[@applemf7779]

i think Disney just reached a point where they don't think they have to make compelling stories

[@emipexu2779]

sad thing is…they really don’t. They make billions either way

[@carlotta4th]

Paraphrasing one of their execs "we have no obligation to make art, but to make money. Sometimes when making money we will indeed occasionally make art."

[@rarity_pony]

I'm really glad you covered the theme of every new protagonist being one note and clumsy. There's a video essay called "disney's adorkable problem" that goes more in depth about it too! I really do miss the elegant charm from the ladies of old disney :(

[@swain-Ix1tv]

oh my god right, with the route they're going they could give us a flawed isabella madrigal-type character who's still regal and feminine. i do like the badass female characters too, mainly because im attracted ti them, but more variety would be nice

[@torytellstales]

I commented on that video just stating what my first impression was. I stated along the lines of "I had high hopes for this movie, thinking it looked like it takes place in Jerusalem and would make an interesting time period since a lot of people had hardships that time" and that "I initially thought Asha was going to be a more serious character, maybe a peasant girl who looks to the skies for answers, perhaps has trouble making connections to others due to loss or things in her past that we the audience have to discover about her while following her story" And then I went on to say that all that hope went out the window the minute I saw Asha purposefully make dumb faces with her already established best friend and turns out to be an already established apprentice who does a whole song and dance about making your wishes come true, and that this diminished my interest in the film, and this one person tells me "before you judge, how about watch the movie" While that may be true, trailers are about giving first impressions. And my impression was Asha looks like every other "adorkable" Disney princess being created right now, and to make her someone who already has things and whose only flaws seem to be being adorkable and clumsy just put the doubt icing on the cake for me. Whatever happened to princesses who had more serious problems and who were outcasts? Because it might be a me thing, but I relate more to princesses who are misjudged and are basically nobodies. Mirabel was the first princess in a while I made that unexpected connection with despite one of her character traits being a bit "adorkable". Her acting a fool wasn't displayed all over the trailers though, you are simply told she doesn't have a gift and lives with a magical family. That concept alone was enough to entice me and a lot of people, and when you watch the film it is THEN that Mirabel's quirks to her personality are revealed. Sometimes less is more is basically what I'm trying to say I guess hahah.

[@necrophallus]

I don't know how these quirky characters can be targeted for millennials, considering they grew up with the Disney renaissance princesses. But this kind of bubbly personality reminds me of the videos millennial creators made for kids on KZbin about 10 years ago.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

It strikes me as fake-quirky, as the types of fellow millennials who would hate me and bully me because I’m autistic which makes me ACTUALLY quirky and I guess it makes them jealous because they want to be known as the quirky one.

[@necrophallus]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131that’s a lot to unpack here 🙉 sorry you were bullied ❤

[@mr.x2567]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131holy shit that’s basically how I feel. Also probably why my kid brain registered Madagascar as the friend you find kinda annoying, but love anyway because they understand you better that anyone else does XD

[@Eat_shit--die_mad]

​@@nuclearcatbaby1131OMG YEAH SAVE THE MOVIE MAKE HER AUTISTIC

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

@@necrophallus Yeah like I was bullied out of the Hetalia fandom because some allistic bitch would get triggered and go ballistic whenever I talked about historical/cultural facts about the countries the characters were based on, I guess because she was too stupid to understand historical/cultural facts and/or she was just horny for hot anime characters. And her friend acted a lot more weird and inappropriate than I did yet for some reason it was only inappropriate when I did it. And don’t get me started on the Oingo Boingo fandom - not in general, just the Zoomers, but after Danny Elfman got MeToo’d (by some narc with a history of lying about her ex boyfriend so all the more mature fans know it’s fake) they’ve mostly self-purged from the fandom anyway.

[@Krystalmyth]

His take about 2D animation not being as successful if released today is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. The massive popularity of anime proves this is not the case. Disney 2D animation is loved by every generation on Earth. The market, the craving for it, is massive.

[@myphinisheris0waot]

exactly what i thought, “counterpoint: ANIME”

[@godslaughter]

I haven't even thought of that!!! Gods, you're so right

[@thatsdisco]

Yeah, I think him being surrounded by folks who work in the studio that is insistent on NOT doing 2D anymore... might've actually given him an inaccurate perception on how well loved 2D animated movies are

[@YourCreepyUncle.]

Unfortunately, more and more anime is being (partially or even largely) cranked out by computers these days.

[@Krystalmyth]

@@YourCreepyUncle. The kids seem to love it sadly. Hard to know what you're missing when you've not seen it and have written off older formats. This is why the notion that it wouldn't be successful isn't based on reality.

[@em_rip]

It’s really sad to see how far Disney has fallen. They don’t care about art, music, or story, they care about making money. Disney was never perfect but back then their movies tried to explore something, tried to make groundbreaking visuals, and tried to tell a story. I think we are all realizing those people who actually cared are long gone. Their good movies are a thing of the past.

[@Not_Kaitlyn]

That's the thing, they know they don't have to try anymore because they know they'll make money regardless. I'm seriously sick of Disney's bs.

[@em_rip]

@@Not_Kaitlyn why people give sm money to them still I don’t know. I felt like I was going crazy when the cgi remakes came out and people were excitedly going to go see them ????

[@Not_Kaitlyn]

@@em_rip ik, like what????

[@anonygent]

If Disney cared about making money, they would be making better movies. Modern Disney only cares about pushing diversity.

[@EngineerMonkeyBTD6]

​@@anonygentI love diversity. It's great! But it shouldn't be the only thing Disney focuses on. What's the point in diversity if all the characters act the same?

[@YoungandFlightless]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment about musical theatre being lacking from today's disney movies. I absolutely love "Be Prepared" and "Hellfire" as villain songs. The orchestration and vocals evoke that rising tension and compelling, but disturbing feeling that just wasn't there in "This Is the Thanks I Get". I'd thought this new villain would be similar to Mother Gothel or Frollo, in that they both gaslit and manipulated the protagonist into believing the villain was actually a good person. It might be the same in this new movie, but the "quirkiness" of the king makes him much less threatening as a character.

[@Attmay]

Musical theater used to be one of the drivers of popular music before rock ‘n’ roll was invented. They responded by trying to copy every new trend since then, instead of just trying to exist as something wonderful in and of itself.

[@arishachoudhury_]

it gives shiny vibes

[@coopahtroopah1175]

I think a big reason the animation for Wish just looks “off” is that it tried to blend 2D and 3D without understanding the unique strengths of those two mediums and how to utilize them both. The Spider-Verse films and Puss in Boots the Last Wish each did this masterfully: 3D animation lends itself to greater levels of detail, and 2D animation is great at making movement dynamic and providing caricature to character designs that make emotions more expressive. Spider-Verse and Puss in Boots absolutely nailed the combination of these two mediums, whereas it looks like the animators of Wish were just told “hey, make it 2D and 3D” without having any idea of how to make that work.

[@carlotta4th]

My guess is it went like this "Dreamworks is doing really well lately! Make our next film look more like that! (sees a test result) Oh god that doesn't look enough like Disney. Tone that down for me, would 'ya?" And that's how we got a tiny bit of texture and not a "style."

[@jaehyuncoonce]

I also love the Beauty and the Beast scene you use because it’s like a mini lesson in social awareness and social queues which I feel like a lot of kids who grew up in COVID era definitely need

[@emeryltekutsu4357]

I think my biggest issue is, what we know of the story so far... the protagonist is actually the villain? The king seems to be very reasonable, only granting wishes that would be beneficial to everyone or wouldn't hurt others. The protagonist just wants to grant everyone's wish regardless. Maybe there's something else to the story, but that's all I've gotten so far? Which would make the protagonist recklessly dangerous while the 'villain' is being careful to do what's best for his kingdom. That thought process might be understandable for a character her age, but it's NOT a good thing, and somehow I lack the confidence that Disney will show that. Which is a shame. Ariel, another young character, was also reckless, and the movie shows her as being a bit reckless and causing a lot of trouble due to her naivety. But she's still a good character and a proactive character in her own story. But I don't think Disney will be willing to show Wish's main character as ever being wrong. The entire basis of the story seems to hinge on the idea that it's a good idea to grant everyone's wishes and that the king is just being mean about it. Maybe I'll be wrong, but right now the entire idea of the plot seems to be at about that level, which just makes the whole thing confusing when you're supposed to be rooting for the protagonist but you're instead rooting against her.

[@nala7829]

Agreed. She's seventeen! At best, she's incredibly coddled and sheltered - and not terribly bright, ethical, or humble to start out with. As of a few days ago, I'm a seventeen year old. I had hopes for this movie (the art style is admittedly prettier than several other modern films) but I think I'll go back to my obscure Arthurian legends. At least they've got some sense and manners in there. (And on a final note - why do they think second hand embarrassment is going to appeal to teenagers? We pretty notoriously melt into acid at the slightest hint of embarrassment.)

[@pbjmochi8400]

For some reason, the trailers don't mention this (I've been reading articles and interviews), but the king only grants wishes he thinks are beneficial to him. He also removes the memories of what the person wished for in the first place after he grants their wish. This makes him more villainous, I suppose. I'll have to see where the movie takes the whole concept of granting wishes. There is evidence of Asha's ideals being flawed, since the promotional tagline is "Be careful what you wish for." Again, we'll see where it goes. (If it sounds like I'm being defensive, I'm really not. The Jennifer Lee/Chris Buck Disney movies have always been just okay in my mind. Definitely not as terrible as some say, yet not as amazing as others say, either.)

[@-Teague-]

Disney movies having terrible moral messaging is not much of a shock lol

[@houndofculann1793]

Actually going for that angle, the protagonist not realising what the "villain" is doing and why and what they _think_ is the right thing to do is actually horrible when put to action, and then maybe having to work with the "villain" to fix things afterwards could be a great and refreshingly different movie when well written. Would also work great with the "be careful what you wish for" -tagline. But it could also turn into basically an animated rehash of Bruce Almighty. Not to mean that Bruce Almighty is a bad movie, on the contrary, but the plot has been done already.

[@BigFanOfManyThings]

I don’t mind a change in the animation style, but I do really wish Disney went back to 2-D animation for a while. Klaus on Netflix was so amazing with 2d and 3d mix. If we had to wait years for a beautifully made 2d movie with great original plot, cool villain, and loveable characters and songs, everyone would go see it, there’s no way Disney can say they would get less money. But I guess that’s all they care about now due to competition. Disney wasn’t ever only for kids, it was for everyone. Asha in Wish looks like a sims 4 avatar..

[@seeexy]

Sim avatar THE ACCURAY XD

[@bubbalub2243]

Thats a perfect way to describe her

[@emipexu2779]

Yeah the animation in wish looks…weird

[@peachpopsicle4090]

Specifically a sims 4 avatar without cc-

[@chessecontainment]

@@emipexu2779 it looks so ugly and bland, it does not even have personality. Same with the character desing

[@philipchaisson]

From the trailer it also seemed like the main "bad" thing about the villain was that he didn't grant everyone's wishes, which from a more mature standpoint actually sounds like the right way to go. It would be an absurd policy to just let everyone have whatever they want. There's value in hard work, earning things, and learning through failure. Idk if that is in fact going to turn out to be the central point of conflict, but there were plenty of people in the comments making similar observations.

[@nala7829]

And not all wishes should be granted (or even could be granted simultaneously)!

[@houndofculann1793]

I'm not sure if the movie turning into basically an animated Bruce Almighty would be great or horrible.

[@arishachoudhury_]

no bc i feel like they just missed out a lot of backstory with it, like the first trailer for it was good but like the new ones just show the worst of it

[@philipchaisson]

@@houndofculann1793 I think it'd be cool if she only perceives the king as being evil until she gains the ability to grant wishes, almost destroys everything, and eventually realizes the responsibility that comes with great power. Maybe the king realizes he's become a bit too stern and jaded under the weight of his responsibility and they both grow together and the whole kingdom is better for it

[@mordo1191]

So, from my understanding from the most recent trailer (?) is that in this universe wishes and dreams are physical things that are given to the king, in hopes that he'll grant it. But once he has those wishes, he doesn't give them back, preventing people from following their own dreams and becoming overly dependent on the king because they believe it's the only way to have their wish granted. This isn't in defense of the film or anything, but I was also confused why not granting all the wishes was a bad thing until I watched one of the trailers (like a week ago or something) and that was the understanding I got from it.

[@birdie8006]

No wonder kids are glued to iPads nowadays, small-scale KZbinrs have more spirit than the entirety of Disney Animation Studios at this point. Yikes! Great analysis.

[@Attmay]

That’s because they are what Disney was when it was new.

[@cattysplat]

Disney is barely relevant to kids these days, it's kind of shocking considering the generations of kids beforehand. But it is what it is, the internet gives kids with an insatiable appetite for content exactly that.

[@ExtremeWreck]

Unfortunately those kids watch things that are somehow worse like *uuuggghhhh* Lankybox. I almost felt like vomiting just typing this.

[@masterjunko]

@@ExtremeWreck The amount of times I've heard lankybox and skibidi toilet coming from my nephew's devices plagues my mind...

[@Ch3zzIts]

@@masterjunkoikr “ i have skibidi rizz” gets so annoying and it always played at full volume

[@Cherubb3_systemsOT8]

Plus as an anim student, the technique of 2d animation is slowly becoming more lost here over in the west. At least the same techniques to make movies like that on a large scale

[@kittykittybangbang9367]

What about France and cartoon Saloon?

[@ondiiina]

@@kittykittybangbang9367 Don't hold France in such a high regard for that, our 2D shows are becoming more and more rare nowadays. Unless you're a long-running IP, a 3D show will be favored. The petty in me is blaming Ladybug for it haha! It's not only with kids shows. Ankama, a studio who makes various things from video games to cartoons, might be loved for Wakfu but when they released their first Dofus movie, which is in the same universe as Wakfu, features a character that appeared on it, is directly linked to the Dofus cartoon, it kind of bombed and they shelved the sequels. They did make another movie that isn't linked to their universe and iirc it won a prize but none of their movies will be shown in every theater. You can only see them in select theaters, usually in big cities, if not in only the bigger cities. 2D just doesn't sell. Too costly to produce and too little gain. It's only a matter of time until it falls out of favor over here too. Probably until they stop airing old cartoon reruns. At least, we'll still have anime!

[@Cherubb3_systemsOT8]

@@kittykittybangbang9367 I guess I should have just said America 😭. Sure it’s not completely gone, but it is dissipating.

[@lightbluechucks]

we really lost a titan when Howard Ashman passed away. RIP to the god. But also, are Alan Menken and Tim Rice retired? They made some of the best music for disney

[@vegankibum5975]

They don’t use Mencken as much cause he reached the limit of the amount of Oscar’s he can win for Disney so they don’t want him anymore

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

Danny Elfman is still working. It’s too bad Disney cancelled those two operettas he screenwrote after the Nightmare Before Christmas before he could get any further than the song demos (which are amazing by the way). He can write both music AND lyrics (apparently a lot of songwriters only do one or the other?) He also got robbed of so many Oscars...

[@Attmay]

@@vegankibum5975Rejecting his *Frozen* score only to see the movie break box office records was a sign that Disney is over him except when they want to drag him out for industry screenings and fan events to play “Under the Sea” and “Be Our Guest” for the zillionth time. See also: Richard M. Sherman since his brother’s death.

[@Dioxazine_Stars]

I genuinely hate modern Disney. I’m just so done with them at this point

[@moonlitebrite9317]

Good, be done.

[@kwk111]

I'm calling bull on the claim that Disney doesn't have the means to make grand scale 2d animation anymore. There are so many methods I can imagine, like using pen tablets/monitors to draw more efficiently than with paper and a lightbox, and you could make simple 3d animatics for referencing scale and perspective (this is what some Japanese animation does). Or, if you insist on fully traditional, lightboxes are super cheap, and talented 2d animators are relatively affordable too If Disney doesn't continue 2d animation, that's in no way because they don't have the tools or talent for a big production. It's because their investors deem it a bad investment

[@Attmay]

They have proven time and time it is not a bad investment, because if it was, they would never have existed in the first place. These are the same sort of excuses that Walt Disney recognized as just that: excuses. They set *Brother Bear* and *Home on the Range* up to fail in order to justify throwing everything away to become Pixar Lite. Just like the rest of Hollywood did to movie musicals after *Mame* and *A Chorus Line* flopped in Hollywood where they succeeded on Broadway and in live theaters around the world.

[@terryt9833]

It's probably more about having the people with the experience and skills, but they probably could if they tried, especially if they were to collaborate with a studio that works in 2d

[@kwk111]

@@terryt9833 They could partner up with a Japanese or a Korean studio. But then Disney would have to give them credit, and the shareholders might feel like that will dilute the mouse house brand... Disney cannot be helped until they're willing to help themselves

[@kwk111]

@@Attmay Let's be real, Home on the Range would've been a fart in the wind regardless of the competition. But you're not wrong, Disney really gave up on properly marketing those last couple hand-drawn movies

[@Attmay]

@@kwk111 The original concept was nothing like the movie that resulted. Originally, the proposal was to make a movie called *Sweating Bullets* and Dolly Parton was connected to it and was going to contribute some songs. But they scrapped that, likely over the word “Bullets” in the title (Columbine had already happened, and Spielberg was even censoring ET in response). Disney didn’t care whether this movie was any good or not. in fact, the worse it was, the more they could use it to justify switching everything over to computers. The advertising campaign turned now-aging 90s slang into an even more cringeworthy dad joke. I will not repeat it. You can look it up on a search engine if masochism is your thing. Disney’s new management wanted to close animation down right after *The Black Cauldron* but only didn’t because Roy E. Disney acted as a human shield between Katzenberg and the animators. They weren’t fired, but they were exiled from Burbank, home of two major movie studios and at that time a major broadcast network, to Glendale, the same town where they taped *What’s Happening Now!!* The solution to bad animated movies and musicals is not none at all, but better ones.

[@desdar100]

The crazy thing is that lin-manuel Miranda wrote two iconic villain songs from Hamilton with you'll be back and the room where it happens. The songs are not only pretty good IMO, but drastically different in tone. I think the bigger issue is that Disney for the longest time has been playing the field by being centrist, and now that's finally catching up to them. They pretend to be inclusive yet have historically always mistreated those who work under them, and they've fallen into way too many formulas that they have now become predictable in the new 20s. There's nothing genuine about the company right now

[@lunasuji]

Right? He can write campy villain songs! (I think Shiny is pretty good). This reads more like Disney trying to imitate his style than his actual style lol.

[@desdar100]

@@lunasuji this is what's absolutely driving me crazy. All of the Aaron Burr songs and the King George numbers are essentially two depictions of what a Disney villain song is. Wait for it especially is a very nuanced song that completely details the character's feelings. A lot of the detractors making this claim have either never heard of Lynn song outside of cultural osmosis, or have no idea how to explain musical theory

[@lunasuji]

@@desdar100 wait for it is what Disney wishes their non-villain antagonists had. Lol. hard agree with you.

[@desdar100]

@@lunasuji Yeah, it's very good and is a Top Tier song

[@themoley91]

Yeah, I don't know why people are dragging him for this when he has nothing to do with it. The music from Moana is wonderful. I didn't love Encanto but obviously it was extremely popular.

[@crahn2011]

To me what stands out about the Beauty and the Beast clip is just how sharp the storytelling is using just their expressions. Watch it again and you can clearly read everything going through each character's head: - Belle is politely shocked by Beast stuffing his face - she can't accept someone with bad table manners. - Beast suddenly remembers himself and hangs his head in shame. - Mrs. Potts and Chip cringe and look for Belle's reaction. Potts is hopeful but Chip is scared. - Belle pouts while eating her porridge. She feels awkward but is trying to ignore it for Beast's sake. - Mrs. Potts and Chip gesture towards the spoon and smile encouragingly at Beast to forgive his mistake. - Beast is terrified of the spoon. It's too small for his paws, so he can only embarrass himself more with it. - Belle notices Beast's apprehension and her expression softens into pity. She realizes that Beast is stepping outside his comfort zone for her sake. - Beast is frustrated as he struggles with his own porridge. His fancy clothes are too tight for him. - Mrs. Potts gives Chip the stink eye as he giggles, but then he remembers the stakes and cringes again. - Belle glances sadly down at her spoon, then smiles kindly as she gets an idea. She frowns slightly as she reaches down. - Belle holds her bowl in her hands with a sheepish smile. Now she's reciprocating him, stepping outside her own comfort zone of French food culture to meet him halfway. - Beast's expression brightens into gratitude, and they toast each other happily. I love how this scene sums up the main theme the movie. These two characters manage to overcome their hesitation and find a middle way that works for them both.

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

About Disney villians: People can say what they want about live-action Little Mermaid, I love that they kept Ursula as villainous as she was in the original. They didn't try to give her a sad backstory or make her redeemable. She was a ton of fun and Melissa McCarthy did a fantastic job.

[@conorgarrett5893]

Same here, If there’s any Disney villain I could see getting the sympathetic route it’s Hades

[@KeitieKalopsia]

@@conorgarrett5893 Justice for Hades ffs modern Greek Mythology interpretations almost always make him out to be the villain

[@marlirium]

I think the reason why protagonists nowadays seem so "quirky" and high-strung is to appeal to the loss of attention span in children over the years. Back in the 90s and even up to the early 2010's, children were able to watch a film that was a bit longer and maybe didn't have as much going on action wise. Its been confirmed that kids now have a shorter attention span then they used too, so movies targeted towards them have a lot more going on to keep them interested. I've noticed this with anything markted towards children now, not just Disney.

[@marlirium]

I would also like to add: I feel as if writers and producers of childrens content are partially to blame for this. The dumbing down and laziness of kids content makes it so that they aren't getting as much out of it as they used to. If you take a comparison to what's popular among children now to what was popular to children a couple decades ago, you'll see a huge difference. Older content actually was educational to an extent, and carried a message for its viewers. Nowadays it's just mindless trash that serves no further purpose than to "shut them up" for a while.

[@giuliasole9878]

@@marlirium exactly what Chapek said about Disney animated films... ''they're just there to keep them quiet before going to sleep'' ...

[@Attmay]

@@giuliasole9878 Michael Eisner and Jeffrey Katzenberg started this trend.

[@alexaburks]

I feel like it becomes this cycle tho, where if kids consume that kind of mindless content with no depth of story or character then it just reinforces it and makes it worse

[@Reiiven]

And they’re feeding that short attention span now, so it makes the problem worse

[@No_Direction-99]

Disney+ was when they officially fell. They seriously thought it was a good idea to limit their monies and TV to a streaming service that doesn’t even have a free trial?? There’s no way they didn’t know they’d damage their reputation

[@satinahall]

The fact that this is being so heavily marketed as the 100th anniversary movie makes me think its going to end with a montage of past Disney movies or something else really cringe

[@mpan7376]

Something I think about a lot of recent Disney movies is that by removing the romance plotline they have mistakenly removed the entire B/C plot. Romance is an easy one; it allows for characters to explore and develop while in ways that build off each other-Rapunzel/Flynn was about naivety versus cynicism and finding the middle ground, etc. Frozen replaced the romance with a sisterly bond but still kept the elements of successful dual-character development-recent Disney films have completely abandoned this bc apparently romance is a negative thing to promote now, and in doing so haven’t found a way to successfully introduce that sort of development. It’s stilted in Moana, it’s stilted in Raya, and it’ll probably be stilted in Wish. Idk, I just miss the romance :/

[@innocehnt75]

notice how romance is only ever bad if it's between straight characters

[@lesvianaura]

​@@innocehnt75said no one ever

[@mpan7376]

@@innocehnt75 not what i'm talking about, dawg, and not the issue here because it affects romance regardless of gender. I think it's a stretch to say that disney is saying one is bad compared to the other; they're primarily trying to appeal to a previously "taboo" market to gain a new financial audience to make up for their losses while still committing to the lack of romance. When they do have non-straight romance it still falls into that delineated distance--yes they're said to be in a relationship but there's no romance. it's positionally oriented, same as the straight characters, and an aesthetic for brownie points rather than actual effort

[@mothalorah9704]

​@@adeonnhow about Brave? I agree with you about liking less romance motivated plotlines, while still wanting the character development those plot lines can offer. I feel like Brave does a good job, though I wish there'd been a bit more of it. I don't hate the bear plot line like some do, but I do think it interrupts what could have been more progressive scenes. Quite literally interrupts, in the case of the river scene.

[@jasperjazzie]

it sucks, because it is nice to have movies without romance in them, but it's as if the people making these movies think that the only kinds of impactful relationships are romantic ones. tension, conflict, bonding moments, you can have all of those in platonic and familial relationships too, but they act like it can only be for romantic relationships, and so without any romantic subplot there is also no character arcs between characters.

[@OGEdger]

The "it's for kids" line is no excuse for making bad movies.

[@DoodleCherry]

I despise when people use that line as an excuse.

[@Attmay]

What’s the excuse for so many bad movies ostensibly aimed at adults?

[@moonlitebrite9317]

Hmm, which bad kids movies are you referring to. Is Encanto a bad movie is Raya and the Last Dragon a bad movie, is Wish a movie most people have not seen a bad movie?

[@OGEdger]

@@moonlitebrite9317 Some that come to mind would be stuff like: the Emoji Movie, Secret Life of Pets, Boss Baby, the Angry Birds Movie, The Addams Family, and so many more.

[@moonlitebrite9317]

@@OGEdger None of those were Disney and this video is specifically about how Disney has allegedly lost it's way.

[@ForgeMondes]

When you mentioned that the silence benefits the scene i was so happy someone else notice that lately movies are almost uncomfortable to use silence. Even before these kind of movies! I was watching the dub of Kiki Delivery Service and let me tell you, Miyazaki is not scared to play with silence and slow but meaningful shots. But the dub added monologues here and there of charactes speaking off-screen just because. I dont know, maybe they think kids are "little beasts" to actually enjoy slow moments. Its insulting for the original version and the viewers

[@alexaburks]

Yessss!! I finally got to see the subbed version in theaters and it was an incredible experience noticing all of the silence. It made such a difference and of course it was Disney who did the dub and couldn’t stand to have silence because in their eyes it was a kids movie and kids need sound and entertainment all the time.

[@EmilysMakeupBag1]

I used to teach anywhere from 3rd grade to 6th grade and I 100% agree with you that kids are seen as "stupid" a lot of the times. That they won't understand certain things and that's just not true at all. For the most part kids are witty and funny. If anything showing them something they "may not understand" is a great way to help them grow and learn. So Disney is definitely doing them a disservice in my opinion.

[@OscarIradTorresLopez]

The fact that LEO and TROLLS 3 are better than the celebration if the 100th years of Disney tells a lot about the state of the studios management of their creative talents

[@kyleek6152]

fun fact beauty and the beast was the first movie my parents saw in theaters together

[@fusetunes]

little mermaid was my parents’ first date! ironically it’s now one of my all time favorite movies in general, lol

[@glowstickspinalfluid]

i AM a teenager who's trying to keep their stuff together and like. is this what people think of me? is this what adults think of everyone i know? it feels like we're being mocked somehow

[@kristinesynowka106]

As a former teenager of the 90s, trust me, you're going to find out that you have your stuff together way better than it looks like right now, no matter what people say. I'm also not convinced that Belle and Ariel weren't just the 90s version of awkward and quirky. 😉

[@justajournalist]

11:38 “the villain, if anything, is the US government” is my new favourite quote

[@finley6161]

I feel like the whole idea of 2D animation not being popular anymore just isn't true, because the spiderverse movies have done so well. Like yes, they use 3D animation, but it's still in the style of 2D.

[@error-try-again-later]

Plus everyone fucking LOVES the big indie shows which use 2D animation (hazbin, lackadaisy etc)

[@Nightmaremistress1971]

@@error-try-again-later😮😮😮

[@junjunjamore7735]

​@@error-try-again-lateri dont think kids watch Hazbin.

[@NaddleSchidaddle]

​@@junjunjamore7735 Teens at least do and I wouldn't be surprised if some kids with too much internet access found the show cool as well... But yeah, Hazbin isn't really for kids.

[@citrinethecorgi]

internal conflicts can be interesting but it kind of just feels like disney for whatever reason is too scared for people to like the villains, so its either an internal conflict, a misunderstanding, or situational conflict. and its getting kind of boring seeing either mislead people getting redeemed as a conflict, or seeing the same type of story arc told in different animation. the last truly enjoyable Villian in my opinion is mother gothel, though she is a manipulative mother figure she is still captivating in her mannerisms and dialogue. she is 3 denominational, on one hand she obviously relies on Rapunzel's powers, it seems that she does care for her beyond just that. she is still obviously a villain but she has all the makings of a good villain, she is obviously in the wrong but she still has an interesting personality beyond just "I am evil." after her there are still great disney movies but lately their formula has gotten a bit stale.

[@ChaosRayZero]

"...the last truly enjoyable [Disney] Villian [sic] in my opinion is mother gothel [sic]..." So... _does that mean you didn't like Turbo/King Candy in Wreck-it Ralph (2 years after Tangled)?_ 🥺

[@citrinethecorgi]

lol, yeah i totally forgot about him til after commenting, but honestly yeah he's pretty flat and one dementional. i do still think wreck it wralph is good tho@@ChaosRayZero