NOS or New Production Vacuum Tubes?

I’ve always heard that New Old Stock tubes (or NOS tubes) are better or more desirable than new production tubes. Is it true?
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Written & Produced by Rick Coste
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[@joz411no8]

Thanks for the video, Rick. The forum I typically visit for questions like this is filled with people on either side, and it can be deafening to read through the opinions. I appreciate your perspective on the discussion.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

You're very welcome. And thanks for stopping by!

[@scottwolf8633]

My Transcendent Sound Minibeast SE OTL employs 3/channel of JJ Electronics, newer version of the 509 tube the EL 509 and it sounds really quite superb driving my Stax earspeakers.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

JJ tubes comes uo quite a bit in discussions. I have a set for my phono stage that I replaced but not because I didn't like the sound, I just wanted different. They are great tubes.

[@fender0942]

So I’m a guitar player and although I’ve never noticed much difference between different tube brands or new vs NOS, I recently switched out my power tubes with NOS in my tweed super. Because of that amp being so raw and direct with its design (being one of the first guitar amps released in the 1950’s) I felt a night and day difference. So I think it’s a case by case scenario. Circuit dependent. Etc.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

What were the NOS tubes you went with?

[@georgeb1364]

As and old fart and speaking as a self-proclaimed "Master of the Universe" about tubes. My experience has largely been finding, restoring and selling vintage McIntosh & Marantz tube components to collectors in Japan and restoring Hammond B3/Leslie and similar organs. For what it is worth, one opinion about NOS is during the day of tubes OEM's with huge buying power would/could demand quality control from the tube suppliers. Mil-Spec tubes also required strict quality control and adherence to specs. Now days there is really no huge-demand buyers holding new production mfg feet to the fire for quality control except a few boutique-sized brands and consumer opinion reviews.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I bet I'll have a lot of questions for you moving forward regarding tubes. The fact that you restore vintage McIntosh and Marantz speaks volumes.

[@sidesup8286]

As far as vintage NOS tubes; are we calling 1970s tubes vintage or are we meaning 1950s tubes. There were processes and materials used in the 1950s which are no longer legal in the workplace because of safety & health issues. There WAS a different way of doing things back then; some of the steps. I am not in a position to make a blanket statement, based on my limited experience with tube rolling; but so far NOS has been superior sounding to current production tubes I've had. NOS Sylvania black plate long tubes are wonderful sounding, the ones from the early 1950s. Not expensive on ebay. More depth than NOS Mullards they say. They were better than the JJ tubes they replaced.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

For the most part I'm referring to the 50s & 60s production lines. I almost bought a pair of NOS Sylvanias as you mentioned. AT the time I went with NOS RCA (and was very happy with them). And thank you for weighing in!!

[@sidesup8286]

I'm glad to contribute. Nice channel! The 1950s Sylvania long black plate tubes are known for their very lush sound and in some forums some say they outdo NOS Mullards for depth imaging. This is exactly what I hear with them. More depth than I thought possible on background vocals etc. Even the main vocals sound a bit back, but not because of veiling; maybe because that's how it really is on the recording. Bass definition & transient speed also seem to be strengths of these input tubes you can get fairly cheap. Highs are a little laid back, but less electronic sognature to the sound; which I love. When it's something acoustic; I like to hear it sound totally acoustic. It occurs to me that it's never really very scientic comparing tubes. Each tube has their own height of sound quality, after so many hours are on it. Many tubes supposedly reach their peak at 800 to 1200 hours. Some earlier. So plucking out a tubes with many hours of play on them and putting in different tubes that are NOS and have no hours on it, is not really fair. Although my NOS Sylvanias sounded better right at the start over the JJ tubes; but I have no idea whether the JJ tubes (which came with a used piece of gear) had a lot of hours on them or not. They sounded ok too, but not as good. Another time the same result happened with 1970s Sylvania 6AU6 tubes, replacing vintage RCA tubes. So far in my limited tibe rolling; Sylvania is the champ both times.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@sidesup8286 This is really making me want to try them out!

[@shredgd5]

JJ tubes in guitar amps are always the “fizz killing” tubes, i.e. their rolled off high end and strength in the mids aren’t probably suited for hi-fi! So, as the video correctly pointed out, the pricy NOS tubes should be compared to some balanced new tubes like the reissue Mullards. You would probably hear an improvement from any other tube, replacing a JJ in the hi-fi world...

[@tothemax324]

The amp design plays a roll I believe, point to point vs all PCB circuits NOS is a firm win with the former. I swap in reissue if only for background music

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

You are absolutely spot on - amp design plays a tremendous role in sound. Different amps for different ears.

[@noblesavage23]

Another thought provoking segment Rick. I think there are slight benefits to a few NOS tubes ( I think they may last longer?) but I don’t think the high prices are justified by their reputation of possessing a “superior”sound. I think were paying for the rarity of the tube rather than specifically for their tone. I’m with you, I'm done - reissues for me. With that said, I purchased a new preamp tube a year back from a company in Texas, Wathen. I purchased a Wathen CryoTone 12au7 preamp tube for my fox ssx stage sound stage expander. Transparent with a rich warm tone. Killed the $185 NOS Radiotechnique tube that it replaced. My Decware amp came with NOS Russian tubes that were left over from the Cold War and and they sound outstanding (inexpensive tubes btw). I’m sure when those are ready to be swapped out - I’ll choose the reissues that you mentioned or pay a bit more for a Wathen set. My wife is from the northwest of England, specifically where the Mullard Factories were. You can bet I’ll be doing a bit of tube searching in shops the next time I’m there..but I will not pay the inflated market prices for those same NOS tubes online.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

You have a much-coveted Decware? I looked into them and shied away from the length of the waiting list. If you do see some old Mullards next time you're in England let me know. I would love to hear about it.

[@noblesavage23]

The Decware amp is where my amp journey ended. I will definitely let you know if I come across old Mullards! @@TheJoyofVinylRecords

[@fredjohnson9856]

I haven't tried NOS simply because the TUNG-SOL KT120's that came in my amp sound so good I have no desire to replace them. Thanks for the video.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

TUNG-SOL makes great products.

[@KeithSkronek]

I just replaced three TAD 12ax7 with NOS Telefunken smooth plates in my Conrad-Johnson TEA2 phono preamp and it was transformative. $1500 for 3 tubes is a lot of money, but it saved me way more than that because I was beginning to consider upgrading. But now the sound is so palatable, so lifelike, so detailed, so real, I have no interest in changing. I’m more concerned about buying another set or two to have as backups.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I'm glad you found tubes that you love! That's often my dilemma - especially with tubes. Once I fall in love with one I immediately wonder if I should purchase backups .

[@FrightfulMess]

It just seems to me that an industry that can create a computer on a chip as blazing fast as a Mac M3 can certainly copy an old tube design exactly as previously made or perhaps even improve upon it with a tweek here or there, OR, design new tubes that perform much better for less money. They've even come out with brand new formulations and pressing technology (injection molding) that requires far less energy than the old steam engines that vinyl records require to be pressed, with a quality that so far equals or exceeds vinyl in all aspects of sound quality and/or longevity. No brainer to me my friend.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I've had the same thought - it does feel like it should be a fairly simple ask to completely replicate the original design to sound the same if not better.

[@adamlemons7909]

Though all of my audio gear is solid-state, much of my amateur/Ham/CB equipment is tube type. Luckily there were a few local old-timers that had HUGE inventories of mostly NOS but also a smattering of newer stuff as well and were always willing to give fellow operators a good deal. About 20 years ago I invested in multiple pairs and single replacement tubes for every transmitter/receiver/amplifier I own and at this point have enough stock on hand to power everything long after I’m gone. Much of this stuff is from the mid/late 60s and early 70s and is either unavailable or simply cost prohibitive in todays market. My obsessive personality drives my wife crazy but it sure pays off from time to time. What seemed like a waste of about a $1000 total investment 20 years ago is selling new or old for 3 or more times that today, that is if you can find them at all… You know I wasn’t going to let you go without a turntable question so here goes… Looking to put a turntable in the living room and wanted your thoughts on the AudioTechnica LP3, should I stick with the LP60 or do you have a suggestion for a fully automatic I should be looking at. I know full auto isn’t as popular or available these days, but my blind fingers find them most useful and my records sure appreciate them, lol! Blessings

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Jealous about the tube stock. I would be curious to know what type (I'm not familiar with Ham radio tubes). I do like the LP3. If I recall it also has a built-in preamp. I also like the flexibility of trying out different cartridges with it. I used to own it's big brother - the LP5 but that model wasn't automatic. I only bring it up because it was similar when it came to build quality. Depending on budget - another option is the Pro-Ject Automat A1. It is also fully automatic and a step up from the AT. It does cost $100-200 more depending where you buy it. Also - meant to mention this before (I don't think I did) - if you ever have questions you can also reach me though my contact page - the email is there as well. joyofvinyl.com/contact/

[@adamlemons7909]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Awesome! I will take a look at the Pro-Ject for sure. I haven’t looked through those tubes in years, but next time my wife gets some time off we’ll get into the radio room and take a look. I had my vision back then and didn’t have or need an iPhone to make lists and store them for easy look up. That’s a good project that needs to be done anyway :-) I will store the email address so I don’t have to bother you with non related topics on your videos, lol! One more thing, because there is always one more thing :-) Do you have any experience with or knowledge about the LP Gear upgrade “kit” for the 60X? I see people talk about it but I can’t seem to find anyone who gives any first-hand experience of actually doing it and the results??? Blessings

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@adamlemons7909 - I don't personally have any experience with it but have heard of it. I just looked it up to re-acclimate myself to what it cost and any specs. It's worth a shot but maybe as a replacement after a year or two (depending how much music you listen to). I change mine every year , although I cheated and swapped mine out a couple weeks ago because I was impatient 😂. It wasn't due to be changed until April.

[@adamlemons7909]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Perfect! Great minds think alike :-) My thought was that the stylus and belt would eventually need to be replaced anyway so I would order the “upgrade” and keep it as a spare along with a couple of OEM units from AudioTechnica. If, well I think we both know that is when I do give it a whirl I will let you know the results :-)

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@adamlemons7909 I’ll be really interested in hearing the results! Also - I definitely didn’t direct you to the contact page to cut down on off topic comments, just thought it would be easier for a direct dialogue and try to help where and if I can 😊

[@ridirefain6606]

Most of my time in this hobby has been with tube power and preamps in my rack. From the likes of BAT, Sonic Frontiers, VTL, Quicksilver, Zesto, Audio Research, McIntosh, and Prima Luna. So, I have tried a number of NOS version of 12AU7, !2AX7, 12TZ, 6922,6H30, and current issue counterparts on the Preamp and Phono stage side. EL34, KT88, 6550, EL84, and KT150 have been used within my power amps and integrateds. I have only heard improvement from NOS tube two times. Most of the time the performance was on par with the new production counterparts from JJ and New Sensor (Mullard, Electro-Harmonix, and Gold Lion). Within my preamps, I wound up preferring the sound of Gold Lion or Black Sable most of the time. The NOS tubes I liked were Mullards and JAN-Phillips. In power tubes, except for a half dozen EL84's, I hardly delved into NOS at all. I find it far too expensive to risk. The EL84's I purchased got noisy after about a year. So got soured on the idea early on. Beside new tubes are now crazy expensive as it is. I will say that I found that you will want to spend more to get the best quality control you can. I have had very poor luck with KT-88 and 6550c tubes from Electro-Harmonix, Svetlana, and Sovtek. Mixed results from Mullards. The more reliable tube came from JJ, Tung-Sol, PSVANE, and Gold Lion. I have had good results from those brands, especially the KT-150 which have been undergoing heavy use in my mono-blocks for nearly 3 years now. Sound wise, I like the Gold Lion, Mullard, and Tung-Sol tubes the best. The PSVANE tubes sounded OK and so did the KT-88 from JJ. For political reasons and cost the next time I roll to a KT-88 I will buy something from JJ labs and avoid tubes from China or Russia. When I want to replace the KT-150. Well, we are screwed, Tung-Sol is the only brand that makes them at a not quite so insane price point. The only solace is, I believe that New Sensor is an American owned company that has its manufacturing in Russia. Hopefully they will move to Slovak Republic or sub contact to JJ. I am not holding my breath though.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Hi! I believe you're right about New Sensor. I too enjoyed the PSVane. The KT-88 Mullards have so far proven up to the task in my amp, and I'd really like to try out Gold Lion someday. Funds will be a bit tight in the next few months so maybe next year. It's also good to hear about your experience with both Tung-Sol and JJ - especially the JJs which I have experience with and would consider buying again.

[@danielgeiger7739]

Hi Rick, WHAAATTT?!?!?? just kidding, love your fresh and open-minded take. I think a lot has changed in the past 2 years with Western Electric getting new life, etc. The most rolling I've done is with a Woo WA6SE headphone amp. I splurged for a WE422 (single tube ~$400, insane, I know) but it really is a vast improvement over the new Chinese stock tube, which re-enforced my idea about poor new production tubes. I also bought some other compatible rectifier tubes (NOS Telefunken, Philipps, I think), and there definitely are differences, and some were not significantly worse than the WE422 but at a fraction of the cost. I have a tube phono stage with a couple of 12AX7 (nothing further known, EAT does not reply to emails), and also a PrimaLuna EVO 300 pre with 4x PrimaLuna brand 12AU7. I have some Brimar NOS 12AU7s from previous times, but have not rolled them yet. Any suggestions for new 12AU7s or 12AX7? I may be willing to spend a couple hundreds on some new tubes just on a lark. After all, the silly season is around the corner.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I picked up some new production Mullards (12AX7) at thetubestore.com. Great service too. I've bought from them a couple times. tubedepot.com is another reputable new productions seller. At the time they were out of Gold Lion stock but I think they are back. You may want to check those out (and it won't break the bank). Both are Russian made and I can vouch for the quality and sound.

[@yaniv-nos-tubes]

why not use the brimars? they are wonderful tubes and way better than anything new.

[@jmsafree]

Hi Rick, I know that you had the Pro Jet Tube Box S2 phono preamp. I am interested if you could recommend a set of tubes for this unit. I am a newbie at tube swapping and would like to try it out. Joe

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Hey Joe! If you want to save some money check out thetubestore.com and search for 12AX7s - Gold Lion or Mullard. Tube Depot may have some as well - tubedepot.com/

[@jmsafree]

thx@@TheJoyofVinylRecords

[@neilfisher7999]

My only experience so far is with new production tubes. I replaced my original stock tubes with an upgraded set of Psvane tubes and these tubes were quiet and smooth. The original tubes were noisy. They had a noticeable hum. So tube rolling is a good idea to improve your sound and get it the way you want it. I would think it really comes down to the sound you like, whether you go with NOS or new production. I wouldn't think think NOS would automatically be better. It always comes down to just listening with your ears. Anytime someone throws measurements at me, my response is, I can listen to music but I can't listen to measurements.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Another great "Neil-ism" - "I can listen to music but I can't listen to measurements". Perfectly put. I do like the Psvanes as well. I'm happy with the Mullards but would have no qualms putting the Psvanes back in if ever needed.

[@neilfisher7999]

Neil-ism, I like that. Thanks Rick!😁

[@petrvodkin5001]

Output transformer is the heart of a tube amplifier, and they don't make them as it used to be.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I like how you put that - "heart of a tube amplifier" ! So I suppose that makes the tubes "valves".

[@petrvodkin5001]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Exactly!☝

[@johng.4711]

The thumbnail shows you as somebody who is *way* too upset by this question 😂

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

🤣🤣🤣 Welcome to my nightmare....

[@VEC7ORlt]

600 buckaroos for a tube? Yeah no, thank goodness solid state exists.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

🤣🤣🤣 - thank goodness music exists 😀

[@briandeeley1599]

N.O.S tubes from the 70's are more likely to be of lesser quality, tube quality control was effected by the switch to solid state circuitry

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

That makes perfect sense to me. Thanks Brian!

[@TheReal1953]

Sorry this is a topic, tubes, I don't really dabble in. Like the other poster, I have some ham equipment with tubes. But I only have my receiver restored and the transmitter and power supply not. The Russians supplied the world with old tube types and defunct IC's. Now I DO have tape decks with unobtainium IC's and the Russians can supply. But I haven't looked into this since Putin went crazy. Didn't that have an impact on Russian-made tubes? I'm old enough to remember 'tube testers' and using them in drugstores and the like. Opening up the cabinets underneath and seeing all those spare tubes! Then one day, they all disappeared and I guess people even collect them now when they can find them. I don't know who in the world would calibrate them. It was a part of Americana, tube testers......

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I remember watching my dad replace the tubes in our television back in the 70s. I also have an old AM tube radio on my dresser - still works too! And yes - the situation in the Ukraine did put a damper on the tube trade (and also affected the prices!).

[@TheReal1953]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I have some giant tube radio thing down in the basement that was left to me by a kid who got my son in trouble. No way without a variac am I turning that on. I don't know if there's even a market for these things anymore.... a very small niche one I suspect. I'd be more excited about it if it was a smaller AM model like yours!

[@EddyTeetree]

Simply put do not buy any that are from a company that is using a previously famous name. Buy JJ or something similar fro a manufacturer who isnt afraid to put their own name om the product. Otherwise search for the originals.