Not all fantasy is from Tolkien : Talking about a different fantasy tradition with Steven Erikson

When we discuss the genre of fantasy and the fantasy tradition it is incredibly common to locate fantasy, particuarly epic fantasy, as the direct descendant of JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and his Legendarium.
But there are other fantasy traditions (and I am on record arguing for RPGs and Dungeons and Dragons in particular) to be considered.
Less controversially, Robert E Howard's Conan and King Kull stories, his Hyborian Age stories in general, are a significant thread in the make up of the genre... and this was how the conversation started... it then wanders all over the genre.
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Intro and Music by Professor Trip.

[@RealHumanBean4U]

Incredible talk. Thank you for shedding light on the past greats.

[@ACriticalDragon]

There are so many amazing authors beyond Tolkien who are fundamental to the genre. Tolkien is important and is probably the most influential, but the genre takes in so much more than that. Thanks for watching.

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

You should press record right at the beginning, at worst, you'll have a blooper reel 😆

[@billyalarie929]

At best, you’ll have what the conversation was at the….. start of the conversation. Funny how that works 🙂

[@odiums_taint]

nah … in these style videos erikson seems more relaxed when theyve been chatting a while already. thanks for the conversation AP!

[@ryanpotter1105]

Always love listening to you two talking about any subject. It always makes my day better. Thank you

[@bobbob-cd9yl]

Going to enjoy listening to this as I go for a walk thx

[@jeroenadmiraal8714]

What's interesting is that Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith (and I am not sure about Howard) mention that they were strongly influenced by Lord Dunsany, who wrote most of his stories before their time and came from England. But Dunsany was similar to Tolkien in his rejection of the modern industrial world and looked back with melancholy at the past. Besides that, I just read my first Burroughs, The Land That Time Forgot, that has all these variations of ape-men. And I contrasted that with Doyle's The Lost World. They are fun to compare. Have you seen my latest blog entry? I tried to do exactly that.

[@astronomicafilms]

REH's big influences were Burroughs, Jack London, and a very underrated adventure writer named Harold Lamb. When I first read Lamb, I was shocked how similar his writing style could be to REH's.

[@katamattyon]

Dunsany is usually considered Anglo-Irish rather than from England, he held an Irish noble title and spent a lot more time in Ireland than other members of the nobility of the same background

[@thedrownedkingdomsaga7847]

Of all you brilliant videos AP this one touched my soul in a different way. It brought out so many feelings in me about 'otherness', and the struggle to reconcile the brilliance of a work with the morals and / or ethics of the writer. Truly food for thought. Thank you for sharing some of your personal experiences, they were poignant. Always illuminating when you and Mr. Erikson get together for a chat.

[@astronomicafilms]

REH was heavily influenced by not only Burroughs, but Jack London and a very underrated adventure writer named Harold Lamb - particularly Lamb's Cossack stories. In Lamb's Cossack stories, you'll find ancient ruins, rugged landscapes, low "magic", the clashes of cultures, heavy doses of Orientalism, etc - all elements you'll find in REH.

[@RedFuryBooks]

Thank you for this great discussion. I've been periodically reading Robert E Howard's short stories over the past two years and have been continually struck by the genre-blurring elements like you mentioned. (A few nights ago a read a King Kull story that that had time travel!). Great content as always, AP!

[@ACriticalDragon]

Some of the older SFF works just don't neatly fit our more compartmentalised preconceptions about the modern genres, and quite often were better for it because neither the writers nor the readers felt that the story had to be located securely within the bounds of a classification. So many new 'ground-breaking' narratives are re-packaged older concepts that the modern audience just isn't as familiar with. But I love how the genre evolves and takes from the old to create something new.

[@Gascon12]

The Arthurian legend changes quite a bit depending on where you are. I happened to be in Britannia, France for a folkloric festival and there was this storyteller telling that story. But the focus was on Merlin. He had a daemonic father but he rejected that and went to save the kingdom with his magic. Great video AP, thank you!

[@ACriticalDragon]

It also depends on which aspects from which time period the story is being taken. Interestingly, if the focus is on Merlin, is it still Arthurian? :)

[@Gascon12]

@@ACriticalDragon I would say yes, because Merlin is one part of other symbols of relevant authority of the same mythical kingdom. The king itself, the sword-crown, and the magical religious advisor.

[@ACriticalDragon]

Unless you go back to some of the early folklore in which the character of Merlin has nothing to do with Arthur and appears more closely linked to a Druidic character. So it all depends on when and where the version is from, and how it is framed.

[@Gascon12]

@@ACriticalDragon Fantastic! Sort of "let's insert Merlin in the Arthurian legend because it fits". A little digression: It made me think of the greek heroes who might have been different ones but their feats were condensed into either Heracles or Perseus. Great thinking exercise!

[@thefantasythinker]

Thank you for filling in some of the gaps in my knowledge about the origins of some of my favorite literature. For me, Howard was huge in influence, but also D&D, both for which I wouldn't be reading the literature I read today. Such a great discussion!

[@billyalarie929]

Steve with his “can of worms” comment (21:14 ~ish) had me ROARING

[@RoxanaMagdaD]

First thing first: Steve's gloves are very cool! I like his style quite a lot! Second: good to see you, I've missed watching you two discuss. I have very much enjoyed this, thank you so much! I would love to see you discuss religion, I'm very interested in your takes on it :) Third: A.P has changed the position of his desk and even though it's obvious, it took a few minutes for my mind to process what's different :) Cheers and see you in the next one :)

[@billyalarie929]

Third point: WHAT, WHOA

[@merleharris7485]

So cool to see learned men disagreeing without being disagreeable...who are, in fact, affable and enjoying the exchange of ideas. Excellent, gentlemen. I am a Haggard fan, and the novels of his that I've read, though my reading is not extensive, never have the great white explorer plundering the pagan cultures. He knew about it in real life, of course. But Haggard lived in Africa for years, even learned to speak one of the local languages to connect with the people. In "She and Allan," Quatermain and the magnificient tribal chief Umslopogaas bond in comradeship, initially over Umslopogaas' women problems! LOL! Quatermaine might regard tribal magic with contempt, but Haggard demonstrates it's occult world is real and Allan was unwise to treat it with contempt. Unslopogaas could have probably killed Conan, by the way. And thanx for the shout out that Conan was NOT mentally dull. In "The Phoenix On the Sword" he stresses how art is more important than political power and war, and in "The Hour of the Dragon," he vocally favors religious freedom!

[@Slowdownthere]

I love Malazan and my son is a fan of Robert E Howard. He’s flying out to Texas for the Howard Days April 28-29 at the museum in Howard’s home town. Also, One thing he filled me in on was Howard and Lovecraft were friends.

[@Verlopil]

I always think of fairy tales and the retellings and reforming of them through the ages as being a huge part of fantasy's roots.

[@ACriticalDragon]

Yup, but also folklore, myth, legends, and religion and religious practices, superstitions, and other cultural practices. There is a whole web of narrative out there.

[@Verlopil]

@@ACriticalDragon Oh yes, certainly. Tolkien may have kickstarted a modern fantasy genre in publishing, but the influences on the genre have been with humans for as long as we've sat around telling stories.

[@peteredwardmason6205]

I'm a bit late to this, but this discussion reminds me of a famous Terry Pratchett quote in which he compares Tolkien to Mt Fuji, suggesting that he is a solitary mountain within the fantasy genre. As much as I love both Pratchett and Tolkien, I've always found the comparison reductive. If you were to compare Tolkien to a mountain, I could see an argument in favour of Everest. The tallest mountain surrounded by other tall mountains but not alone. Actually, I think the best comparison for Tolkien is that he's like the Black Sabbath of fantasy representing as much a continuation of certain trends but also a defining moment.

[@bookswithbanks8943]

The part about fantasy elements in myth making really got me thinking about debates in/on "Oral History." I can always count on you two to give me a lot to think about... and to also maybe give me future channel ideas. Great video!

[@ACriticalDragon]

One of the difficult and often times perilous questions is where is the dividing line between myth, legend, and religion? It is a big topic and not really suitable for the time (nor tone) of what we were discussing.

[@bookswithbanks8943]

@@ACriticalDragon Oh of course. I can understand why you guys delicately brought it up, but then returned to the specific authors more directly connected to this conversation's main idea. No need to wade into that minefield of a topic without careful planning for a dedicated deep-dive.

[@ACriticalDragon]

It is also an area in which I am not as well read, nor as well researched, as other areas of fantasy, and, believe it or not, I don't like wading into a topic that I don't feel I have a relatively solid basis in. It turns out that I only really like to ramble in areas I have previously explored.

[@RSEFX]

Fantasy goes as far back as hallucinations. As dreams. As consciousness. Thinking. As aar back as mind-encountering nature, and not understanding it...and wanting to figure it out. Tolkein was just another human who picked up that thread and wrote about it rather than just keeping it in the secret confines of his own mind. Reality and its mysteries created fantasy.

[@LiamsLyceum]

Interesting that Mr. Erikson points Grimdark back to KEW's Kane, which are not really popular at all these days. I can see it though, the little I've read of Kane it feels like Conan but obviously a villain. Anyway, we don't get thieves' guilds without Leiber.

[@ACriticalDragon]

Depending on how we define it there are a few options for early examples of a thieves' guild. Certainly, Leiber is the key example for much of modern fantasy versions, although I think that the adoption of the concept into D&D is probably responsible for more of its propogation than Leiber's works themselves. But we also have Fagan's gang of thieves in Oliver Twist. The Forty Thieves in Aladdin. And assorted groups of organised and semi-organised beggars, thieves, and brigands. So the definitional aspect is important as most times we see incremental changes and articulations that build on previous tropes and concepts until we arrive at an example that is 'exactly' the thing, even if it is essentially very similar to previous versions.

[@patchesglass1030]

Oh yeah, here we go!

[@benjaminmolina3456]

Would The Faery Queen by Edmund Spencer fit in this pre Tolkien catalogue of authors?

[@LesMartin]

I haven't had time to watch/listen to this whole thing... So my apologies if it's addressed (but I doubt it). What do you think about Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan? I've recently finished re-reading it and this whole topic itched at the edge of my brain. I understand that it is pure allegory and as such a very pastoral piece, but still it is very fantastical. Does this have a place as pre-Tolkien fantasy?

[@ACriticalDragon]

This is part of the whole topic of religion and fantasy that Erikson and I wanted to avoid. It is a really big topic, with some complex issues, and jumping into it halfway through a discussion of the Pulps was tonally awkward as well as would be giving it short shrift in terms of the scope such a discussion has to have.

[@harrygiddy3799]

Has AP ever given the lore on where his intro sound comes from. Cos it’s great

[@ACriticalDragon]

A viewer and commenter, Professor Trip, made it for me. The attribution is in every video description (or at least it should be).

[@rutgerhauer666]

I think what's important here is not who came first, as first doesn't really matter all that much. There have always been stories with a fantastic element, dating back to cavemen telling stories by firelight about monsters. What matters more is who made the greatest impact and had the greatest influence on subsequent authors. That's why Tolkien and Howard (and Burroughs) are so important. William Morris is not unimportant, but did not ignite the modern fantasy genre the way these latter men did.

[@paulharvey5505]

Great video. I need to read Conan

[@ACriticalDragon]

They are short, and many are very quick reads.

[@paulharvey5505]

@@ACriticalDragon can you recommend where to start? Which editions? Part of the reason why I’ve never read them is I wasn’t sure where to begin I know Robert Howard originated the character, but I’ve also heard other authors names associated with Conan - de Camp, Karl Wagner.

[@ACriticalDragon]

There is a decent collected edition of Conan 'The Complete Chronicles of Conan'.

[@merleharris7485]

Disney's adaptation 1973 of "The Lost Ones," "Island at the Top of the World," kept the lost world alive at the end, as did the novel, three years ahead of the McClure "At the Earth's Core." No wonder they didn't destroy Pellucidar...Caroline Munro stayed behind and who would EVER want to see Caroline Munro unhappy?

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

Steve is all in around 40 minutes, when the gloves come off. 😆 (But really, he needs to turn off the snow blower before cleaning it. 🤣)

[@billyalarie929]

Can I steal that? I’m going to anyway, but can I get your blessing?

[@RSEFX]

Have you guys ever discussed writings more along the lines of David Lindsay's novels 9THE HAUNTED WOMAN, DEVIL'S TOR, A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS) or John Jacob Astor's A JOURNEY TO OTHER WORLDS?---metaphysical fantasy adventure? Spiritual "adventure", meaning OVERT rather than more metaphorically--implicit metaphysical adventure tales? (I wasn't able to listen to all of this discussion, so, maybe you DO talk about these things here? Or not? Just too many ADS to plow through ----and I don't like to use anti-ad apps, generally, as it isn't fair to the content provider. But...TOO MANY makes it hard to stick to that philosophy. Is DILEMMA! :-7

[@ATEN_DNAR]

18:08 I don’t think any one seriously believes that men won’t exist any longer, it’s more a debate regarding the general character of men, and the apparent differences that fiction makes bare.

[@paulharvey5505]

I really enjoyed the John Carter movie, was a fun movie.

[@ACriticalDragon]

So did I.

[@bryson2662]

Wish I could take a side. I need to read this stuff

[@RSEFX]

TOLKIEN is kind of a late arrival, isn't he, to this whole thing we broadly refer to as "fantasy"?

[@argentorangeok6224]

Just good fantasy.😊

[@ACriticalDragon]

Them thars fightin' words, you varmint. Girrrrr 😂

[@its_saam9459]

This conversation needs some Wittgenstein

[@neveragain125]

"Fantasy is all that is the case" lol

[@its_saam9459]

@@neveragain125 was thinking more genres, like words, have family resemblance and geneologies, not strictly defined boundaries, but that works too 🤣🤣

[@neveragain125]

@@its_saam9459 i had a similar thought and completely agree! but it isnt as funny LOL

[@ACriticalDragon]

And Wittgenstein was a beery swine Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.

[@neveragain125]

@@ACriticalDragon was he actually a drunkard?

[@MGWorldwide]

I sometimes feel like Erikson and I read different books when it comes to the black company. I struggled through the first books and gave up aboiut 30 pages into book 3. Just wasn't exciting or interesting imo

[@JimmyDaKoik]

My introduction to fantasy was through the works of the legendary Michael Moorcock and his Champion Eternal books. Moorcock takes absolutely nothing from Tolkien. Nothing. Moorcock is from the Howard School of Fantasy. So when I think of "fantasy", my first go to is Michael Moorcock and his literary ancestors like Howard, Burroughs and Leiber. I tend to think of Tolkien last because I read a shit ton of fantasy that was older than him, or by his contemporaries, or from a time before LotR became big.

[@RSEFX]

AS A BIT OF AN OUTSIDER to fantasy writings and filmed versions etc, I'll have to side with A CRITICAL DRAGON insofar as a general take as to Haggard and those kinds of fantastical adventures. In broad strokes it's all the same kind of, er, bailiwick. Between Haggard and Howard, more or less a distinction without a difference. BROADLY speaking. To the GENERAL public. It's all "non-reality" imaginative entertainment. Of course, as with most anything, the devil is in the details, but details don't seem to be of interest to the public at large.

[@carlalbert6518]

What a great discussion! Genres, despite being so often strictly demarcated, blend constantly, and they never develop in a straight line. The only thing I'd push back against in this video is the exclusion of religion when discussing the development of fantasy as a genre. I know you two purposely swerved from that nuanced and controversial can of worms, but I think western pagan and Christian (which admittedly, ahem, *borrowed* a lot from different pagan traditions) faiths alike are intrinsically tied to the genre's evolution in the West. You need look no further than Tolkien himself for proof.

[@ACriticalDragon]

The importance of religion to, and the importance of religion in, Fantasy is a huge discussion in and of itself, even in just Western narrative. From the impact of GrecoRoman religion to the formation of Christianity, to the use of Christian allegory to create fantasy narratives, to the use of religions such as Greek, Roman, Norse, and Egyptian, amongst others, to create fantasy narratives. To the treatment of older religions or less 'popular' religions as fantasy texts indistinguishable from folklore. the intermingling of folklore, myth and legend, as religion and from religion in various cultures and regions, and the feedback loop that establishes (e.g. Arthurian myth and the Grail quest). And that is before getting into the discussion of treating the Bible as fantasy literature. It is simply too big a topic when we were already discussing Howard, the pulps, SF, adventure stories. Admittedly, if I tried to write a lecture on it I could probably condense a number of the points and try to create the illusion of a simple framework, but the format of these videos is very much Erikson and I having a chat and if an interesting point comes up we sometimes decide to record it. There is also the issue of sensitivity to people's faiths. Neither Erikson nor I would want to be seen to treat someone's faith and religion facetiously and many of the texts and topics in that type of discussion have direct relationships to certain matters of faith across multiple cultures. Essentially, it is a big can of worms to jump into in the middle of a discussion about something else.

[@jameswitts3793]

Isn't Wakanda technologically superior because of the large amounts of adamantium? Not because of the lack of colonialism? Wakanda even subjagated local tribes to Wakandan laws

[@ACriticalDragon]

Wakanda has access to a natural resource of vibranium from the meteorite (adamantium is sort of the artificial version that is famous for coating Wolverine's skeleton). The country is made up of several tribes (each tribe is on the council). So the parallel is an African nation that has not had its natural resources pillaged by a colonial power. The lack of colonialism is a huge part of Wakanda's story. Although it is not all sunshine and roses given the isolationist stance (hence Killmonger's argument in the first film).

[@jameswitts3793]

@@ACriticalDragon could you recommend any books for the motives of colonisation and imperial expansion? I'm on my first read through of Malazan, currently reading Return of the Crimson Guard so obviously this comes up within this fantasy setting

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

Religion is fantasy. 😅

[@thefantasythinker]

Yup 😀

[@bryson2662]

So brave

[@patchesglass1030]

It really is though. Reading "scriptural" texts, as Fantasy, rather than as some sort of divinely revealed truth, is a good lense for atheists/agnostics/non religious people to get some enjoyment and satisfaction from these ancient stories. Christian, Jewish, Hindu texts, for example are full of fantastic elements. What we think of as mythology Greek, Norse, etc.. was the "religon" of its time as far as we know.

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

Myth is religion that no one believes in anymore.

[@patchesglass1030]

And, of course, 20 minutes in, they discuss it... don't comment before watching, when will I learn?

[@jacobsirois7585]

Lovecraft and Howard where very racist, and products of their time. I believe in death of the author. I can enjoy their works but clearly see their prejudice. I take it in context. They should be labeled as racist and recognized as that was the standard view of the time....f*@#en horrendously racist. That said their works of fiction where genius and defined horrer sci Fi fantasy. They where brilliant writers.