Arduino & ClearPath Servo: Moving 34 lbs FAST! WW131

[@bacawaka2813]

Power is given by this formula, P=F*v which resulted in, 55.6W (.0746HP), or the power to move 34 lbs vertically at a constant 867 IPM. This does not take into account mechanical loss such as the friction of the bearing surfaces and air resistance, or the electrical loss from the resistance of the windings in the motor. Mechanical energy is denoted by these formulas, Ke=.5mV^2 and Pe=mgh based on the kinetic energy given alone, it produces 1.04 J(0.767 fl-lbs) of energy. Potential energy is a little harder to determine due to the lack of height provided. Assuming a height of 4 inches, the potential energy is 15.3 J (11.3fl-lbs). With the assumption, the total energy of the 34 lb mass moving vertically at a constant rate of 867 IPM and a height of 4 inches is 16.3J (12.0 fl lbs).

[@davidsirmons]

I'm unbelievably glad I clicked this video. I've been looking for weeks for a servo (not stepper) which runs ~5k rpm and makes a few lb-ft of torque. Fantastic!

[@machine2747]

I bought three of the CPM-SDSK-2321S-ELN Clearpath for my project mill. I turned the motors using the software and absolutely love them. When the table is moving, you don't hear the motors at all. Very strange for someone who is used to the noise steppers make.They are worth the extra $$$ in my opinion! Great video John!

[@Eggsr2bcrushed]

looks like you and AvE are down the same rabbit hole... enjoy!

[@WandRindustries]

Big, BIG ups on this video! I've wanted to do automation for a while in my shop, but it always seems so impossible and so far off into the future. It's great to see someone who is willing to take the time to mess around with these things and who cares about leading his and other small machine shops into the new age of manufacturing.

[@PeterWMeek]

Seriously cool! I was sitting here grinning from ear to ear watching that weight move up and down. As for what the motor is developing, let's take the steady speed of 867 ipm. A horsepower (imperial - metric is a tiny bit less)) is defined as 33,000 ft-lb/min. Your rig is developing 867 ipm x 34 lb = 29,478 (we're ignoring the weight of the carriage, friction, and maybe some other additions to the load) so let's round to 30,000 inch-pounds per minute. Divide by 12 to get ft-lbs/min = 2,500 Divide by 33,000 to get hp = 0.076 hp (rounded) or roughly 1/13 hp which passes a reality check by looking at the size of the motor and thinking about other small fractional hp motors we have seen. The answer should probably be a bit more since I'm sure the carriage and the bolts must weigh at least a pound or two, and there is the friction (efficiency) of the ball-screw, bearings, slides, etc. to be considered. Like hot-rodders, maybe we can consider "rear-wheel hp" and ignore all the drivetrain losses and consider the steady hp it takes to lift your 34 pound payload at that speed as 1/13 hp. An interesting thing to consider: that trapezoidal speed profile requires some jerky changes of acceleration and deceleration. If the ramps were started and finished with hyperboloid curves rather than sharp corners there would be less tendency to overshoot (those errors on the green trace) and the instantaneous hp required would be smoothed out. It might be possible to actually shorten the time of those ramps with no increase in required hp or torque. (Now it just may be that ClearPath actually does exactly that "behind the scenes" and trying to outguess the software would be futile. You might ask the ClearPath engineers about that. If it's a stupid question, you can always blame one of your viewers.)

[@timsanders7632]

this video make my purchase decision for me. i have been on the fence for clearpath for awhile but lack of creditable reviews made me hesitate. John your review and detailed video of these motors makes it a no brainer. thanks for the information!

[@tomstarke4660]

Our big plasma machines weigh thousands of pounds, travel 30' in X and 12' in Y, and the motors fit in a large shoebox. You are correct: it is amazing.

[@Max_Marz]

dude I loved that test to prove the overshot! brilliant!

[@thomaswayne9713]

I first tried out the Clearpath SD-series motors within 6 months of their initial release onto the market. Very shortly into that first application I vowed to NEVER use a stepper motor again. I've also incorporated their MC-series motors for a couple of builds, and in a simple, single-actuator PLC-type application these are KILLER! My only fear is that demand for these could possibility exceed Teknic's ability to produce, and I might end up waiting longer for delivery....

[@stumpy1495]

Remove one or two of the blocks and have them suspended in the path of the attached blocks. Then monitor the position error as motor picks up and releases the free blocks as it moves up/down. The test you're doing is almost set up for it to do well, you're tuning it for a fixed set of conditions - then only using it in those conditions.

[@TeknicInc]

Thank you for your suggestion. Maybe John will do another video showing such a test. What you would see in such a test is a blip in the tracking accuracy whenever the weight was instantaneously changed (i.e. when a block was picked up and when a block was released). The magnitude of the blip would depend on how extreme the test was (i.e. how fast and how much difference in weight), but in any case, the motor would quickly compensate for this error and be able to adapt for the change in weight. (Comment continues) In real-world applications, many axes do not have well-balanced, non-variable loads. Most CNC applications do not have a consistent load weight and/or cutting forces throughout operation. This is why ClearPath has Variable Load and Inertia Matching Technology. This technology allows for high inertial mismatch and also allows for variable load weights and forces (within reason) with virtually no change in performance. In order for this technology to work optimally, we recommend that the motors are tuned for worst case scenarios (heaviest load weights and forces, and highest inertia mismatches).

[@stumpy1495]

As the reply from @Teknic Inc was not made public here it is: Thank you for your suggestion. Maybe John will do another video showing such a test. What you would see in such a test is a blip in the tracking accuracy whenever the weight was instantaneously changed (i.e. when a block was picked up and when a block was released). The magnitude of the blip would depend on how extreme the test was (i.e. how fast and how much difference in weight), but in any case, the motor would quickly compensate for this error and be able to adapt for the change in weight.

[@Runner50783]

Clearpath is the best thing that has happened to my laser cutting business. Now that said the auto tuning does not take them to their fullest potential, I got 3x better settling times by manually tuning.

[@Runner50783]

NYC CNC indeed, a laser cutter needs extremely high performance as I primarily cut paper with fast speeds and acceleration, minor errors are easily reflected in your final product, I need my servos to be with in an error of 5 counts or less. the auto tuning gave me something like 25 error counts on the initial overshoot and the move settled in around 100 ms, manually tuning them I was able to keep my initial overshoot with in 5 counts and have the rest of the motion oscillating within 1 or 2 counts with accelerations of 4600 mm/s^2 which to me is just fantastic

[@TeknicInc]

Abraham Saenz, I am glad to hear that the ClearPath is working well for you. There is a more detailed response about the auto-tuner (and your situation) under the post for snikkeldak that you may find informative.

[@Runner50783]

Teknic Inc Thank you, your product is truly remarkable, this product really blows yaskawa, Panasonic and others out of the water for CNC applications, they may have a lot of advanced features but most are useless for CNC, on top of that your product is much sliker, smaller, lighter, easier to use and on top of all that cheaper. The more I learn about servos the more I realize how great the Clearpath's are.

[@ipadize]

0.26 funny how the microphone hisses when you touch the motor

[@ipadize]

@Morgan Pablo yeah let me guess someone tried it for 20 minutes and it worked perfectly??

[@ipadize]

@Morgan Pablo ooh you changed it to 10 minutes lmao

[@Larry1942Will]

Thank you. I have a bore and insert machine that was ordered with a Z-axis drive. The x-axis drive is servo and very fast and decently accurate. This machine normally has a manual change of the Z-axis because it normally processes panels of a consistent thickness. I wanted to be able to drill & insert at two Z levels and therefor very quickly change elevations. The salesman knew this. But they cheap out, making the Z-axis automation useless. The stepper system always has to return to zero before moving to the new location. Very slow, useless! Watching this video, I'm thinking it may be possible to now convert the machine's Z-axis to the servo like I wanted. I'm not technically bright enough to know what would be required. Machine was made in Germany. The CAD we use is Top Solid. The g-codes are generated in CADCODE. Codes are looked up on the server by using a barcode scanner at the machine.

[@davestrong6472]

You should mention that the servo has a built in encoder and micro processor. So the servo is a close loop system. Way better than a conventional stepper were you can loose step and not know, clearpath will alarm if you loose position.

[@yalgret]

steppers only loose steps when you specify something to weak for its purpose. You can also get encoded steppers so you r argument is biased and false.

[@davidsirmons]

wow, that's great to hear. I have not working knowledge of servos, but I do know I like the built-in feature of those parts.

[@mchiodox69]

Clear Path has done an awesome job of incorporating a lot of engineering for us into their controller. When designing a servo control closed loop system, you have to take into account all potential errors, including lags in the system. Looks like their auto tune is detecting all of the errors in the system and then adjusting the system to compensate for them. And, (saying this with tongue in cheek) all those pesky gains are important to old control engineers like me! :)

[@TeknicInc]

Thanks mchiodox69. Tuning the "pesky gains" can be a double-edged sword to a user with limited experience. Used appropriately, they provide superior performance. There is a detailed response about the auto-tuner listed under the post for snikkeldak that you may find interesting.

[@snikkeldak]

The reason it uses a square wave is for system identification purposes. A square wave contains all frequencies (Fourier transform), and in order to identify your system you need an excitation that is sufficiently rich and excites all modes (frequencies) of the system. After comparing the input and output you can derive the transfer function (which determines system behaviour). So once you know how the system reacts to a square wave, you can simulate how it will react to ANY given input... amazing! :D

[@TeknicInc]

Hi, my name is Tom and I'm an applications engineer at Teknic. snikkeldak has provided some good insight into the auto-tuning approach and there have been several comments on both ClearPath’s auto-tuner and its servo algorithm (a.k.a.: servo compensator), so I'd like to offer some input. The ClearPath auto-tuner uses square wave commands (instantaneous changes in velocity and position) to set the servo gains for the torque loop, the velocity loop, and the position loop. One reason for using square wave commands is to “excite” the mechanics at the machine’s natural resonant frequencies. Once these frequencies have been identified and processed through an FFT analysis, the tuning algorithm will raise the gains as high as possible to provide a robust tuning profile but leave enough design margin to keep the mechanics from resonating. Square waves are also used to drive the servo loops into saturation to make sure that the servo remains completely stable under the worst-case scenarios. (If you’re an experienced servo user, you may find it surprising that we don’t use a “small signal” stimulus like most servos. There are a number of heuristics built into ClearPath’s servo algorithm to effectively deal with these large-signal, square wave inputs which drive the servo into non-linear control regions.) The ClearPath auto-tuner compensates for a wide variety of loads, frictions and mechanical designs. Although it’s true that manual tuning will sometimes result in better performance (more on that in a minute), the opposite is also often true. The auto-tuner often produces a tuning file that is so good that even an experienced Teknic engineer cannot improve upon it. (This is actually a humorous source of frustration for some of our applications engineers!) Also, even when the manual tuning produces better performance (e.g., tighter position tracking), that better performance may be at the expense of robustness (i.e., good performance as the machine wears, or repeatable performance over hundreds of machines built over time as in the case of OEM machine builders). The ClearPath auto-tuner tests for robustness, and does so over the entire given stroke of the axis. The experienced manual tuner can, of course, also do this, but often does not. And finally, there are also a few scenarios, as Abraham has mentioned, that require a specialized tuning approach. An application requirement for high dynamic motion control bandwidth (such as a high speed laser), combined with a mechanical design that can accommodate higher servo gains, and tuned by someone with motion control experience, may be one of those scenarios. That being said, after almost three years of experience with the auto-tuner, we have found that it works well, and is often optimal, for nearly all of the applications out there. Note also, that for users who would like to see if the auto-tuner’s performance can be improved upon, ClearPath has a “fine tuning” control that allows the user to easily and safely adjust the tuning after the auto-tuner has run. This allows you to tweak the tuning for the specifics of the application without having to manually tune. Typically, fine tuning provides improved dynamic and static disturbance rejection/stiffness for a moderate increase in audible noise (or vice versa). When your axis has varying loads that it must deal with when running, it is important to auto-tune your ClearPath motor with the heaviest load/highest inertia for that axis. This will provide the best overall results. Regarding the servo compensator, ClearPath uses a PIV compensator as opposed to a PID version (the "V" term denotes an embedded velocity loop as opposed to the "D" or derivative term within PID). It also uses multi-derivative feedforward gains to reduce tracking errors (preemptively, before they even occur) based on the motion command. Designing a PIV compensator is more difficult than designing a PID, which is why the PID is much more common, but it is higher performance, and the tuning is not iterative like PID tuning. This makes tuning much easier and more deterministic whether the tuning is done manually or by an algorithm.

[@invetech1]

Love that you are getting back to steppers, ardiuno and more automation. More please!!!!

[@mean1flyer]

hey John,this is by far the most amazing motor i have ever seen,nice videos bud keep it up,thanks for all the time you put into them 👍

[@CatNolara]

One correction: 25 microns (assuming that means micrometers) should be really close to 1 thou, since 25.4mm are an inch, divide both by 1000 and you have the numbers. So it's even more accurate than you think ;) And another mistake: you shouldn't have divided your result by 10, but multiplied by 10/25. I have also worked with servo drives and hand tuning them can really be a pain in the ass.

[@codene]

Klaufmann I noticed that little error too. 1 micron = 0.000 001 meter = 0.001 millimeter. 0.001 mm / 25.4 mm/in = 0.000 0393 7 in. x 25 = 0.000 984 25 in. Like you said, 25 microns is very close to 1 thousandth of an inch.

[@DStrayCat69]

Blows my mind :-) I love Servos... All of the Robots I have worked with have had servos... I really can't see myself using Steppers over Servos, for the reasons you stated. Enjoy!

[@davestrong6472]

I can't wait for more video on clearpath. I have a cpm series motor and it's pretty incredible what it can do.

[@glennedward2201]

JMC servos are pretty awesome too. At first glance you might think they are a stepper and they do have a model near identical looking that is a stepper (plus clones exist) but it’s an AC servo powered by DC step/direct that uses a internal vector drive to convert to AC. They are fast as heck and ultra quiet. JMC also has programming software for the servos so you can set them up much like you do with clearpath and they’re half the cost. JMC has all sorts of products from steppers to servos and I’ve seen up to 3kw 19nm beasts. The Nema 23 model number for their servo is IHSV57 and for the stepper it is IHSS57. Keep in mind everyone is copying them and the clones cannot be debugged or programmed like clear path. You will find some sellers overseas that will fool you to get a sale. They even sell the clones for more money.

[@JonPrevost]

Power = Force * Distance / Time so 34 lb * 70 ft / 1 min = 2380 lbft/min which is a hair over 50 watts. With losses in friction and high performance braking to hold a position and dampen the motion, with additional understandings of acceleration requirements (much more power necessary) AND the fact that motors have an approximate parabola power curve vs speed. This is why steppers are so frequently undersized by amateurs. Peak torque is usually at zero velocity but peak power doesn't happen until about half no-load speed! Keeping this in mind, the inertial loads (heavy weight or very fast accelerations) are what tax the servo drives more than the constant velocity. It's all in the accelerations, hence that peak torque beeping you were hearing just after an acceleration from near zero velocity. Fun indeed. :) Keep up the great content.

[@ColinMacKenzieRobots]

The Clearpath do seem like a good value. You're right, servo tuning can be a biotch to tune and is dependent on what it is pushing and pulling and like in your case the axis of gravity. Very good demo and I am really impressed with the diagnostic software. A servo and a gecko drive is going to cost in the same price point so getting rid of some wires and adding diagnostics makes Clearpath the better choice. I'll be using them on my next build for sure.

[@TeknicInc]

Thanks Colin MacKenzie. We look forward to working with you. Some details about the auto-tuner can be found under the post for snikkeldak.

[@44mod]

Great video. It has been 4 years science the video was produced but it is still a great example of the ClearPath Servo's products.

[@northernsmith]

Closed loop stepper. They have a 2000 line encoder and are super easy to set up. Just adjust your speeds until you miss steps and back it off a bit and your done. They are about 130-150 for stepper and driver for a 1600 ozin nema 34 system. Much cheaper then the clear path.

[@octavioaraujo6532]

There is a fundamental difference between servos and steppers, a mechaduino is just a closed loop stepper and will never be a servo. Also, clearpaths have been showing up a ton! They look awsome. Look into jerk control for the energy transfer onto the gage? Keep us posted on your automation projects, thanks.

[@mikepeterson8663]

Hi John, when my mach 3 system finally gave out or I got sick of fighting with it I went to WinCNC and got a proper controler from them have a look. A system that does not glitch out on you when you plug in a usb. They make systems for a lot of very big company's that build cnc routers in the US. Have had no problems in over a year.

[@CJ-ty8sv]

Just to answer your question at the end (sorry if someone already got it and I missed their reply). The amount of energy for 34lbs at 830in/min is only 0.700ft/lbs.. To calculate energy in Joules, the formula is 1/2 mass * velocity² (which has to be in Metric... KG for mass and Meters per second for velocity). weight in Lbs / 2.204 will give Kg, so 34lb/2.204=15.426kg 1in/min = .000423m/s, so 830in/min = 0.351m/s Thus (15.426/2)*.351² = 0.950j of energy 1j (joule) is equal to .7375lb/ft of energy so 0.950j = 0.700lb/ft

[@dirkblanston]

It appears that it self calibrates all the parameters of the PID feedback loop. awsome

[@TeknicInc]

Thanks dirkblanston. The ClearPath actually uses PIV control and not PID. Details can be found under the post for snikkeldak.

[@idksomethingunique]

I like the feedback when you touch the motor.

[@occamssawzall3486]

34lbs at 61.52m/s^2 is 948N of force or 213lbs force. If the acceleration is in/s^2 it's 24N or 5.4 lbs force

[@DougHanchard]

Helpful. Thank you. And you haven't added inertia or gravity into the equation, so it's probably a tiny bit higher, being the 'lift' is vertical.

[@telimarkskierman]

Not sure where you got 948N from. To find the force it take to move the weight at a constant velocity we use: F=ma F=(15.5kg)(9.8m/s^2) F=151.9N When it is accelerating, it is doing so at 61.52 in/s^2, which is 1.56m/s^2, so to find the additional force needed to accelerate the weight we use: F=ma F=(15.5kg)(1.56m/s^2) F=24.18N To find the total force that is applied in order to accelerate the weight upwards we simply find the sum of the forces in the +Y direction. 151.9N+24.18N=176.08N To find the total force that is applied in order to accelerate the weight downwards we use: F=ma F=(15.5kg)(9.8m/s^2 -1.56m/s^2) F=127.72N Once the weight has reached its intended downward velocity, the force needed to keep the weight at said velocity will increase back to 151.9N.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Jonathan Crowell It wasn't stated if it was 61.52 M/s^2 or in/s^2 If you notice I gave answers to both. Getting the same 24N you did if using in/s^2

[@telimarkskierman]

I see. If you look at the spread sheet at 9:45 It has the acceleration listed in in/s^2.

[@occamssawzall3486]

Jonathan Crowell And you're using total force. Which is wrong. If the stage is static there's a gravity force trying to push it down, but an equal force (via the screw and housing against the ground) pushing against gravity. When it's stationary you have net acting force of zero. The force between the platform and screw is already applying the required force to overcome gravity. And additional 24N added to the screw will accelerate the platter to 61.52in/s^2 the screw accelerating the platter will experience 24N plus the 152N it already was apply to hold the stage up. Gravity is constantly pushing down on the platter with 152N. So while the total force in the equation is 176N. 152N is being canceled out. Meaning to bring the stage to a dead stop with these numbers. Only an additional 24N of force against the platter would be needed. Gravity is already applying 152 for you.

[@bcbloc02]

Looks like these have a lot of capabilities. Thanks for sharing all the great info with us, the built in metering with the o-scope is awesome. This has me thinking about maybe building my own plasma table in the future as they clearly are a valuable tool to a job shop. I liked the chamfered lead in on the feeder too. :-)

[@mryoutuser]

Very nice video, CNC milling machine leaves a marks on part surface when the tool travels from a high to low point and start machining immediately , you can see kind of ripples on surface and they disappear as the tool moves further because of the tool vibration is damped, so tool bouncing is more likely to occur when moving down. I think it would be more convenient if you perform the test on the down side because the weight of blocks will contribute in the overshoot, and will prevent it while moving up . What do you think ? Thanks

[@dieselphiend]

I think you'd probably get the same result. It would simply come to a stop more slowly as it accounted for the load. These are very smart drives. They do the calculations for ramp up and ramp down before they even move, and are able to determine when they have to start slowing down in order to prevent overshoot.

[@partisanguerrilla3167]

You are going to win with the servo. Steppers lose lots of torque the higher the step resolution, you don't lose a thing until rpm breaks the torque curve downwards with the servo. Awesome tests! How did you calibrate the travel distance to the ClearPath before you started? What voltage to the servo?

[@HughesEarthworks]

I hope this is a prelude to a DIY CNC plasma table. Another great video John, even though most of it was over my head.

[@HandsonCNC]

ClearPath Servos are stupid strong.. I have a CNC Router with about 200lb gantry.. Two of their servos can move that gantry at 1200ipm no problem.. I think "move" is the wrong term, the accelerations I can get its more like "throw"... Love not needing an controller, just encoder and power.

[@tedsaylor6016]

Which size Clearpaths?

[@justinmoritz6543]

I LOVE these kinds of videos. I am currently overfilling a 3d printer with servos and like some good educational videos keep it up

[@Bobby11]

Im really glad your planning more videos with Arduino etc. one of the very first videos (and what actually got me interested in your channel) was your earlier arduino videos :)

[@kevinkillsit]

John, I really think you would dig taking a high level Mechanical Engineering course in Control Systems. It would make you appreciate that Auto Tune feature real quick haha. You have a very natural understanding of all the fundamentals and It's great to learn from you. Like you said, not getting overwhelmed is key. Very cool video, I'm working on a project at work and I may go a similar route for the automation of a fairly heavy arm assembly.

[@tedsaylor6016]

John, how did you do in Calculus and Diff EQ's in school? If it wasn't for you I'd avoid a high level controls class (I have a BSME and the math was killer)

[@kevinkillsit]

Ted Saylor hahaha so true, that was the most math I think I've ever used in my life. Brutal honestly, but when you finally get to the end and have the "aha moment" it's all worth it.

[@BerndFelsche]

Well it does get quite messy. One of the things that I realized much too late is that mathematics is a special language to describe abstract concepts. Like any other language, it takes a long time to learn to think in that language; and then to move onto the different dialects. There isn't enough time to acquire a language as part of a 4-year course that deals with a thousand other things, if one isn't gifted/cursed. Believe it or not; I found a use for second order, partial differential equations in the real world. (I was dong static footing design because the senior Civil Engineer's brain had exploded.) Well; I reduced the solution space down to exactly one; which was solved for particular cases by numerical methods. 30 years later; not sure that I could replicate the work from scratch without half a year to "warm up".

[@kevinkillsit]

Bernd Felsche yeah, even though I've been through all the math of PID and could probably still get it done with a little brushing up, I'm thankful for companies like clearpath that make it easy to get the job done. That's what sets a company apart.

[@mowbetter2010]

Awesome video!! I didn't know about the advanced page you showed when I set mine up. I just did the auto tune and they are truly awesome motors.

[@mowbetter2010]

You are a true inspiration to a lot of guys wanting to get into machining and cnc work. I probably would have never converted mine over to cnc if it wasn't for all the videos and help that you get out to us with your videos. THANKS SO MUCH.

[@CarlinComm]

Dang, that's really cool ;) I'm just starting to grasp why you're so excited, very fun stuff you're getting into there! Can't wait to see more!

[@tedsaylor6016]

Clearpath servo $260 ... 2 Ground Linear rails & C3 Ground Ballscrew w/Preloaded bearings - a whole lot more than $260 I bet!

[@mrmjdza]

Awesome vid! Energy / power has nothing to do with linear velocity, it's all about acceleration. Tell me how long it takes to reach 800 inches per minute and I'll tell you how much power you have and how much force it's putting out ;)

[@brooksnelson7870]

What is the part number for the servo? It is really great showing us lifting at the weight you did. My spindle motor alone is 12 lbs and I am figuring another 10lbs+ for fixturing and other gizmos. awesome video.

[@kevinbelcourt8271]

Those look very nice. What do you think of adapting those to your Tormach machines. I love your channel!

shop dog is super cute. We love our Teknic motors for our simulator motion system. :-)

[@1svsoulmate]

This looks like it would be a good choice if you were going to turn a Bridgeport into a CNC. It might even be able to handle the knee.

[@pietzeekoe]

Kinetic energy=1/2*mass*velocity^2 Force due to acceleration is: Force= mass*acceleration I live in a metric world so, you can figure out how to use these in a barleycorn based system..

[@brandonrowoldt8306]

A hundred thumbs up. I can't wait to see what's next. There is so much great free software out there. Thanks and keep it up.

[@adamfilipowicz9260]

Clearpath needs a Nema 17 version

[@JonesAndGriesmann]

0:25 John picks up a ton of electrical interference just touching the powered servo motor, can be heard on the microphone.

[@OldePhart]

The Autotune can only get you part way, Its enough for most, but you can certainly tune those PID values to eliminate that initial discrepancy if you were so inclined. You would suffer somewhere else in the profile, just just determine whats important to the application.

[@OldePhart]

I tune PID's as part of my day job and you can always do better than the built in autotuners if you have the time and need to do so. So yes, I could probably improve it, but as you have pointed out - just how critical do you need to get. If you were using these motors and trying not to jostle or spill the material being conveyed you would use one set if parameters with slower rise and fall times, it you were opening and closing a valve to maintain flow or pressure you would use a different set with a bigger predictive term. As a good example you could mount an 18 inch (or some length that will oscillate) rod to your table. When it starts and stops you would expect to see it swing back and forth. You can tune these terms so that the acceleration and deceleration is shaped such that the rod would remain rock steady throughout its movement. Instead of a linear swing to and from zero, you would have some shape to the curves. If the torque path is predictable you could get rid of the mid path spikes by changing the D term and the startup spikes by changing the P and I terms. If this was an application in Pharma or semiconductor you can bet the autotuner wouldn't be good enough - which is why they allow you access to the variables to begin with. This is truly tedious stuff and very load dependent so its likely in many applications the tuner provided is fine and manual tweaking is not needed, but you mentioned it so I'm just saying its possible. I'm building a CNC router using these so I will likely poke at them just because I'm a glutton for punishment.

[@TeknicInc]

AndTheWinnerIs..., just to be completely accurate, the ClearPath uses PIV control and not PID. There is a much more detailed answer under the post for snikkeldak that you may find interesting.

[@OldePhart]

That's certainly a fair response. I am really looking forward to getting these in hand. I'm using dual motor Y axis so the auto tuning will not be nearly as well optimized on that pair because of the racking that takes place as one side is powered and the other isn't during tuning. Teknic recommends taking the tuning from one side and copying it to the other side, but we both know that's not optimal. ...and as we both have said, It will also probably be just fine for this application.

[@TeknicInc]

Thanks AndTheWinnerIs. Usually the best way to tune a dual axis (assuming that the mechanics have the same pitch, diameter, etc.) is to load up the single short axis across your table (some call Y, some call X) with the load that each of the paired motors will see and run the auto-tuner. Then load that file into the dual motors and set the reverse bit on one of the motors. Save the files with unique names to keep the files for the dual motors separate (in the event that you will need to reload them in the future) and test the machine. This works well on most machines. The only thing you may want to do is to adjust the fine tuning with the slider (MSP, Setup, Fine Tuning) Hope this helps.

[@carbidedge]

Super video, what a fantastic product. Will be adding them to my CNC machine, your a brilliant salesman. Keep the great videos coming.

[@Mekhanic1]

"Integrated servo". I've been using JVL MAC Integrated servos for years and won't go back to the old way. This is the way everything will go in the future. They are more reliable than a traditional remote amplifier servo setup. What is the wattage of the servo? I primarily use 800w nema34 units from JVL, oh and they are $2,500 each. $250 is very cheap!

[@886014]

John an odd question, but the motor couplers you're using. Are they your own, purchased, or did you use a canned CAD template off GrabCAD etc? I was just about to sit down and model one for an odd size shaft and will probably just 3D print it in nylon, but spotted yours. It looks like a good alternative and I could print the flexible internal material in TPU. An excellent video on servo motors BTW. There are certainly much cheaper closed loop motor alternatives available, but it looks like ClearPath have an excellent turn-key solution.

[@cncit]

These look great although as far as I can tell the servol loop is closed at each drive..if the drive starts acting up the cnc control wouldn't know..but still fine for hobby use..

[@imajeenyus42]

I'm prepared to be corrected, but I've always been a little wary of autotuning systems! I can only speak from experience of temperature controllers, which also use a PID control loop - I've had several cases where autotuning simply can't work reliably, and I need to manually tune it instead. (Which isn't actually a big deal, if you know what you're doing, which I didn't at the time!)

[@TeknicInc]

Lindsay Wilson, your perception of auto-tuners is common, and for good reason. A detailed answer is listed under the post for snikkeldak. The details are directly related to your concerns.

[@manisujan]

Hi John I need a small suggestion for my b-tech project based on machining and at last I am great fan of your videos

[@brooksnelson7870]

I finished watching video and saw the part number. Answered my question.

[@shammient]

I want a pair of these for my lathe. So quiet!

[@witcheater]

I unsubscribed a while ago for you chose not to listen to me, and your other subscribers fan-boyed me. Happy to see that you have chosen to learn and listen anew. Yes, I am an ass, but I still know what the eff I am talking about for I am a working ass, not just a tech-book meme... which way too many machinists only end up being.

[@bm510]

No one cares

[@rodrigo125]

Just one thing... 25 microns = .025 mm = .025 mm / 25.4 mm/in = 0.00098in So, if you're off by 1 micron that would be .001/25.4 = 0.000039in or 39 millionths which is in my opinion pretty awesome! (:

[@oldestnerd]

Good Information. I've been using some of the ClearPath motors for over a year now. I first heard of them on the NEO7CNC KZbin channel. I started with some NEMA23 motors the size you are using but then bought some that are still NEMA23 but are longer. I have them on my DIY CNC machine and they have worked very well. I have a video of them on my CNC on KZbin. There is also a video of something I made so I could better see the status LED that is in the well where the mini USB connector is located. I run my motors off a large 70 VDC Teknik/ClearPath power supply. One thing that concerns me is if the system is tuned with a fixed weight load, when it's actually milling something the load will be changing all the time. I wonder how good it's tuning is driving a dynamic load. I have pushed my system to at least 300 imp without trouble, but I haven't pushed it until is fails. It would be an interesting test.

[@TeknicInc]

Thanks John Nelson. NY CNC is correct that you want to tune for the worst case scenario (meaning heaviest load/ most inertia). Cutting is actually the easy part because you can only move as fast as the cutter can remove material. So high cutting forces have more to do with the continuous torque required of the motor and less to do with high inertia (which requires more peak torque and better control algorithms). A more detailed answer about tuning can be found under the post for snikkeldak.

[@erlinghagendesign]

Hi John, great video. One thing: i see that you are using this plum coupling type. For a servo motor system and accuracy applications better then woodworking you should /could replace the coupling with a disc servo coupling. Surely comparatively much more expensive, but worth it. cheers Herri in Kunming.

[@TeknicInc]

Hi Sure D, My name is Tom and I am an applications engineer for Teknic. The split jaw spider couplings are the preferred coupling for servo motor control. They provide good torque transmission as well as damp many of the high frequency resonances that can be found in the machines. These couplings work well for applications that require a level of high accuracy as well as less demanding applications. This is based on experience with thousands of machine designs.

[@alexsterling5186]

Did anyone else notice that it looked like he had Abom's "Do you even indicate bro?" shirt on? Very cool haha

[@chillierdavro]

Nice Work the ClearPath servo's look awesome! Big fan of the Arduino :)

[@EastyUK]

Great video mate, These clearpath servos look delightful. That calc will depend on the thread of your lead screw, dia, pitch per inch and a rough friction coefficient. Maybe there is a lead screw calc tool around .You could turn faster with more thread pitch and have less torque i'd assume. Obviously turning faster brings its own issues.

[@BerndFelsche]

Nice setup to really test the motors. These motors and their tuning software really do bring effective, closed-loop control to the "consumer" DIY-CNC. It's a shame that you had a terrible science teacher and therefore can't work out the energy needed to lift (all) the weight over that height and then divide by the time it took to estimate out the average power. 😋

[@BerndFelsche]

The 2-cent lesson: Potential Energy (PE) is that which is stored in an object; be it from its position and being able to fall, or in e.g. a spring that's compressed. For the test blocks: PE = m × g × h Where m is the mass, g is gravitational acceleration and h is the height. Mass is how much there is of an object; weight is the Force that that mass exerts under gravity (gravitational acceleration). i.e. F = m × g Raising or lower an object over height h changes its potential energy corresponding to the difference in height. [ I work in SI ("metric") units so don't want to confuse you with the wrong erm... Imperial units. ] The block and the moving part of the slide is being lifted or lowered about half a metre. The mass of the slide is about 20kg (34 lbs + bits). Gravitational acceleration is 9.8 m/s² - near enough to 10 for a first estimate. To change potential energy, "Work" is done. Work in these "kinematics" can be represented by the distance moved against a given force: W = F × s Where s is the distance. The work that is done changes the potential energy. The work to change the potential energy of the test blocks with slide is therefore W = 20 × 10 × 0.5 = 100 joules This is the same as the useful Work done Power is the rate at which work is done. i.e. the work divided by the time that it took: P = W / t When the test block and slide are raised/lowered in e.g. 1.5 seconds total; then the average power is simply: P = 100 / 1.5 = 67 W If we know the peak speed (800 ipm?) of about 0.4 metres/second, we can do some algebra as velocity is distance over time v = s / t and perhaps deduce that P = m × g × v = F × v i.e. that power is equivalent to the force, multiplied by the velocity. So peak power would be P = 20 × 10 × 0.4 = 80 W Note that these calculations don't include losses that produce e.g. heat and noise. They represent the minimum amount of work done or power needed to do it; at 100% efficiency; no losses. Armed with these few formulae, you can estimate the minimum electrical power requirements to move an axis against a resisting force, be it due to gravity of machining loads. NB: If this is wrong, what'd you expect for two cents? ;-)

[@jflissar]

Awesome channel NYC CNC, been watching for years.

[@frankyw08]

I can't wait! I already am picturing an awesome CNC machine to be built. Currently, I've built a shapeoko 1 and a shapeoko 3, but an no machinist. This looks like it would be a huge upgrade. Would this work with grbl 1.1?

[@davidsirmons]

What torque and RPM does it make? I'm looking for high power/rpm motors for....various mech projects. (edit) nevermind, I looked at their site! Great torque and greater rpm!!! FINALLY!!! Found a servo that makes the RPM/torque I need. THANK YOU!

[@barrythompson5127]

Very interesting subject, I think many of us are either building or planing to build CNC routers and plasma tables. Of course I'd like to be building a robot but I think I'll have to be satisfied with my router :-)

[@LilRedRasta]

Do you think this would turn a rotary table with a 200-300 pound load on top of it? Its not lifting the weight vertically, but it has to turn the weight to precise angles.

[@craigrathe2469]

Hey, i've been around servos/tuning and may have some insight that you can use. Going from steppers to servos you just need to understand alittle bit more on how they work. So, i saw i Spider coupling ... so if you are doing high accuracy stuff, this may be a point of flex. Typically servos for higher accuracy are belllows or better. Now that requires a better level of mounting brackets, etc. another issue with that spider coupling, is that its not 'ridgid', which affects your tuning ability. so if you want faster response with the same accuracy you are currently seeing, you can fix that. finally, i didn't look closely, but from my experiance .... if you have a keyway in the motor AND you want high accuracy AND you are a job shop .... you should redesign.

[@TeknicInc]

Hi Craig Rathe, My name is Tom and I am an applications engineer at Teknic. Actually the spider couplings provide a much higher level of performance than might be expected. There are many applications requiring a high degree of accuracy that are successfully using spider couplings. The thermoplastic rubber spiders come in different durometers (degrees of hardness) for different application types. They have good torque transmission and damp much of the high frequency resonances that machines can have. This allows the servo gains to be tuned to a higher level and therefore provide better performance. This experience is based on thousands of applications.

[@landonhillyard]

I miss this content

[@elidouek5438]

do you ever worry about Jet cutting his paw or eating swarf off the ground? especially now that you have the manual machines that dont have any chip containment.

[@doriantung8875]

Nice video. Which ClearPath servo did you use? Is it SCSK series?

[@Jan_Seidel]

Have you heard of closed-loop steppers? might be worth to take a look at

[@korencek]

I don't get it, but why is this test done with rubber coupling? doesn't rubber contribute to the movement error?

[@cncgarasjen]

Love the videos and entusiasm. The jump cuts are getting kind of anoying after a while. Maybe slow it down with the jump cuts a tiny bit? Everything else is awesome

[@EZ_shop]

Incredible! I wonder how the X2 minimill would perform with those servos.

[@ThunderAppeal]

Are you still wondering moron?

[@chiparooo]

Very cool stuff! Looking forward to more.

[@rickmandrey6760]

Awesome. HUGE Thanks for sharing!

[@davestrong6472]

I wonder if Tormach will convert to Clearpath?

[@Max_Marz]

I really want to see the lathe converted to these!!!

[@onemanriflemaker3873]

Dave Strong i was chatting to the Tormach guy at the open house last year. I asked if the 1100 used steppers. His answer was yes. But they have put a lot of stuff in to make sure that there is no loss of steps. So I guess it's a question of cost to Tormach . Teckinc supply to OEM as a primary market. So who knows!

[@8710ify]

We're developing a 15k 5 axis that will use clearpath! Seriously good stuff! 400mm Table. The cost of the clearpath's is worth every penny over dealing with cheap chinese crap.

[@886014]

Any information out there on your machine?

[@8710ify]

We're working on it... Stay tuned. Wish I could nail down a better timeline for you.

[@cncit]

Could you show us how you check a machine for tram/squareness and how you would correct it if it's not within spec?

[@landlockedviking]

some seriously good content these days, thanks!

[@michaelheinen8526]

great video,on a HBM plus or minus .0005 is close,u talking micros,i have no idea what a micron is lol,were are u and u hiring a retired guy couple days a week,that was really cool

[@BenMateffy]

Hey can you write on belt input vs direct input? Here I see you use direct input but somewhere I read its recommended to use belt input. Whats your thought on this topic - belt vs direct? regards

[@billgreathouse1913]

Has there been any word indicating that Tormach could come out with a series 4? Perhaps using clearpath? does clearpath offer a unit that could be used as a spindle drive? then we could have rigid tapping, no?

[@timmallard5360]

now the here is, are these motors the next level performance for the Tormach? They also say you can replace spindle motors with there larger ones?

[@ipadize]

is it the strong (CPM-SDSK-2310S-RLN) or the normal version (CPM-SDSK-2310P-RLN)?

[@TAWPTool]

Great video! I think I see a ClearPath inspired SMW retrofit kit for the Tormach coming soon to your web site. Hahaha!

[@flloriangerard]

Hey John ! your test is crazy ! for such a small motor! i'm impressed I'm designing a cnc and it coud be a great choice. Does this closed loop motor could work with a granit ioni ? or mesa card ?

[@charles3450]

Nice video! Can you recommend an alternative for these motors for under $100?

[@howardwhite9773]

Kinetic energy = 1/2 times mass times velocity squared.

[@odc43054]

And when you went home and told your wife about all the cool stuff you did today, did she say "That's nice, honey." with all the sincerity she could muster? :-) Really cool stuff there, John. Does the coupler between the motor and screw have an effect on motion and repeatability? It didn't seem to in the tests you were running.

[@robsciuk729]

Love your Vizsla ... oh, and the videos ...

[@petrasvestartas4359]

Do you thing it is possible to mount Clearpath motor from the motor chassis itself? I know that there are typical 4 screws form nema23 motors, but are there any other mounting possibility outside those?