NYCTA/MaBSTOA: 1979/1980 Grumman Flxible 870 Review

As a special way of saying thank you to all fellow fans and viewers, Kal-El goes back to the late 70s & early 80s to review the most controversial buses of New York City Transit & all time!!!
Credit goes to
/ @memorymuseumtv
/ caitsith810
/ @memorymuseumtv
/ hbc2nddetroit
This review is dedicated to fellow transit enthusiast Vincent Cartelli
REST IN PEACE

[@kalelc1996]

This special review is a way of saying thank you to all my viewers and subscribers

[@beroyking554]

Do you have the history of the long island buses?

[@kalelc1996]

@@beroyking554 I have to look through the archives

[@noplacelikehome11]

Kal-El where did you get those edgewater depot pictures

[@kalelc1996]

@@noplacelikehome11 archives

[@noplacelikehome11]

Kal-el put a link to that cause I want to see the pictures or do a bus depot review about edgewater

[@dmcr9525]

Great job man! I learned a lot here. These are definitely my favorites next to the RTS, and it’s also the first bus type I ever drove!

[@DouglasWells-el5dv]

Did Brooklyn and Staten Island Had These Buses

[@nascarfan20105]

I'm glad NJT,CTA,CARTA,GGT and BMTA (Baltimore) have kept the last few remaining Flxibles running in the country in decent to fair shape.

[@knightclassic1]

I wish CTA did had Grummans with sounded like this, I'm shocked that CTA never ordered any Flxible until 1991 same with RTS

[@ajaytransitproductions]

@@knightclassic1 Pace has Grumman 870s until the 1993 when they were replaced by the 1993 Ikarus USA 416 Buses.

[@simonmiller5405]

Kal El there is a eyewitness news article on KZbin from January 4,1984. They show Ulmer Park depot and Grumman buses pulled due to the ball bearing steering breaking.

[@AboveandBeyondGlobalDrones]

We took the Bus striped all the under coating, did NDT testing, welded New plates on, replaced the original washers and then put them through Hell before sending them back to action. Memories.

[@kalelc1996]

Woah that's interesting

[@AboveandBeyondGlobalDrones]

@@kalelc1996 Most had no cracks but we welded reinforcement plates on them anyway. I was an USMC Aircraft Structural mechanic qualified in non destructive testing and checked (Bethpage). The washers were replaced when I found them to be the wrong type. I blame Roher, the company Grumman bought the "design" from. When refurbished, we ran them through a dirt track full speed with hills and "potholes" built in - in Garden City, Long Island. Grumman took yet another financial bath paying for repairs; base closings, military aircraft sales gone after President Reagan and the cold war ended (Calvertion closed) and the 100,000 jobs lost on the Island forcing many to leave. Never forget Farichild-Rebublic's A-10 Warthog off rte.110. I still have the original Grumman emblem. Its an interesting story (Flxible 870) blown out of proportion by Newspapers et.al. at the time. Why? They never talk about a bus made to carry ###pounds yet over filled , under maintained. Some 870's are still in use today. I'd love to have one to convert. After all that, a separate repair shop was opened to maintain them (Garden city). Many Cities didn't have proper maintenance facilities who knew the bus structure. I saw a story of a shock missing (they used air bags to take the weight shifts) and one story of an engine coming down. Maintenance Department anyone?. But we are human. Remember, Grumman built the LEM or lunar module that landed on the moon as well as the Tomcat and others. It was the start of a Nation changing. Companies merged to lower tax States and military bases NAS Memphis, El Toro, and others became neighborhoods

[@kalelc1996]

@@AboveandBeyondGlobalDrones mmm-hmmm

[@thescatman5029]

The RTSes slender width were/are good for some of the small, two-way streets in Bed-Stuy, such as Flushing, Myrtle and Gates Avenues, plus Halsey Streets!

[@bluer68]

I grew up with Grumman Flxible 870s and Flxible Metros throughout my childhood.........mostly NJ Transit

[@JamalSG]

So did I...on a Houston METRO.

[@Iwatchcrapandcomment]

The MTA actually ordered Flxible Metro E's in 1995, but unfortunately the company declared bankruptcy in 1996 due to poor management of its parent company.

[@kalelc1996]

Yes

[@christianluyando9077]

@@kalelc1996 that's disturbing. I didn't know buses like these have accidents that can happen again.

[@christianluyando9077]

@@kalelc1996 WHAT?! PR?! NO WAY!! I DIDN'T KNOW THE 870 WENT TO PUERTO RICO!

[@paulzent3646]

Great post! Lots of memories. I was hired the as they were delivered! Great job of explaining what happened with them. We did a good job keeping one for the Museum Fleet.

[@jmjfanss]

The 870/ metro and the rts were the coolest, stylish buses ever made.

[@antoniogoode4407]

I remember the Grumman bus back in the days when I was a kid and i see some of the bus at the green bus line and jamaican bus line too i miss the old new York city buses growing up as a kid

[@DouglasWells-el5dv]

Brooklyn and Staten Island Had some of them back in the day

[@paulcastillo9323]

We used to have the at scrtfd back in the 1980s

[@ShadeJay]

Nice you got a bit of archive footage too Also it's kinda funny how in the news article section it was mentioned that if Grumman dosen't get itself together bus companies would have to move to general motors for new buses. And look at where we are now.

[@roadblock7801]

That's quite telling that the V.P. said that there are no safety concerns regarding cracked frames, but that's a load of bunk. Anything cracked is a safety concern in regards to transit operation, or otherwise. I'm no New Yorker, but these are the sort of problems that arise from a company that was never a bus builder. Take Breda, for instance, and after a fashion, AM General.

[@zoomanx9661]

Cool. I remember those Grumman’s, they were fast, on the B47

[@AutomotiveTaurus]

I already know #213 is rostered at East New York Depot by the pic of it in front of ENY depot with 2 black employees on the side of it.

[@thetransitguy5594]

Whoa, this bus sounds hella good! I love that trainsmission and those 6v71, and 8v71. Rip those, I will miss them along with the 6v92, series 50 and series 50G I just wondered what trainsmission it had tho it sounds so vintage

[@yovin13]

It has the Allison V730 transmission

[@robertko5425]

Please note that Grumman Flxible 870 # 100 (later renumbered to 199) was a 1978 Model bus that was taken off of the MARTA's very first production of these buses in 1978 when MARTA ordered 135 of these buses from 3001-3135 and were the very first Grumman Flxible Model 870's ever built. One of these buses were taken off the MARTA's order and was given to the MTA's NYCTA/MABSTOA as a replacement for 1975 New Look Flxible 53102-6-1 # 7899 which was destroyed by fire on the Bx34 (today's Bx6 & Bx6 SBS) back in 1976 and that bus was still covered under warranty when it was burned on E 163 Street & Eagle Avenue. Also the correct sequence were NYCTA Local 201-392, & PA1-PA96, Express 393-452, Local with wheelchair lifts 453-552, and Semi-Express/Local were 553-565 which were destined for Avenue B & East Broadway Transit company which closed down in 1980. Now for MABSTOA Local 601-810, & PA97-PA175, Local with wheelchair lifts 811-910.

[@emteaay2477]

Damn Imagine riding a school bus to work that’s so unusual

[@MagicMike-rd8mz]

Thank-you for the memories . Of the Old Grumman Flxble aka 870 . The blueprint to ADB Advanced design Buses. And to Orion V Buses. It's very unfortunate that they didn't last as long with the MTA. But other private Bus companies like in Queens they had them thought the mid 1990's and some as 2001 But Bee Line . And New Jersey Transit Bus had them up to late 2000's. The MTA were just being soft. When it come down Grumman Flxble . And they city did fix the Streets meaning the Potholes. And stuff. At the end day . The Grumman Flxble 870 where way ahead of there time. As I Before. Some of newer Bus models have some similar features as Grumman Flxble like Orion V and Orion VII O.G and the NFYLER'S XD-40 Orion V and Orion VII the front window shield and XD-40 the upper Windows can open. And Box / Rectangle Body design and some of the have roof pipes where smog come out of Bus. Excellent Grumman Flxble 870 Bus review. Bro . I remember riding on them thought my earlier Childhood and to Young Adulthood. As well because I use to live in South Jamaica Queens. Greenline Bus Jamaica Triboro coach Queens Surface and Long Island Bus But Triboro coach and Queens surface where In different parts of Queens But they still had the Grumman Flxble 870.

[@burbank]

As a kid I remember all of these problems that Grumman was providing the New York City Transit authority. I remember in New York City that the GM RTS buses were becoming more dominant. Were they better quality than the grumman? That's a good question. I know when we moved to Massachusetts they had already had the GM RTS buses running and they were running smoothly. They had a nicer sleek design and some of the older models had that backward slant. It looks sleek and modern at the time but then those had to be replaced because the air conditioning in the rear was interfering with the motor that was also in the rear. But they were modified. Nonetheless general motors and flexible no longer manufacturer buses here in the United states. Sadly I only think that the buses manufactured are through Gillig. Great documentary and commentary!

[@j.r.devine]

Thank you for making this video

[@glamslamcam]

The 1st buses I ever remembered riding on were Grumman 870’s on the Bx12 in 1983 when I was 4. It was love at first sight. As quickly as i rode on them, they were gone. The Grummans always intrigued me because of their look & ride but also how quickly they were pulled from service here in NYC. I understand that they had lots of issues but IMHO, the MTA made a HUGE mistake getting rid of them & not working with Grumman to fix them. It’s clear there was a bias towards GM to get more RTS’s to NYC. Plus, how did Private Bus companies who’s buses weee truly jacked up, able to keep their 870’s and the MTA couldn’t keep theirs & they went down the same streets as the Private Lines? It’s super suspect. I wish the MTA had ordered the Metros in 1990-1991 when they got Orion V’s. It could’ve & would’ve been a game changer for NYC & Flixible. It really sucks that we didn’t keep the Grummans & get anymore of them before they folded in 1996, but I’m glad NYC got them at all so that they’re a part of NYC Transit history.

[@raymondj.2351]

Yep, they all suffered from cracked A Frames, but New Jersey Transit acquired some of them and were able to resolve that issue, you would have loved the Flxible Metro D and E Series buses if MTA were still purchasing those buses between 1993 and 1996 they sounded phenomenal.

[@kedrinraymond5261]

I always wanted to drive a Grumman but there were retired before I started the job in 1987

[@MagicMike-rd8mz]

Thank-you for making another excellent Bus review. And unfortunately on the MTA and the government officials had jumped the gun about the Grumman Flxble 870. Because NewJerseyTransit and all of private Bus companies had kept them in shape . They didn't have to many other problems after they had fixed them up any many of them had last until the late 90s or 2001

[@patrickdavis9813]

Detroit Michigan Surburban Serve Grummand Flixible Under Smart Which Was SEMTA Bus Transit

[@mikefagan6840]

I remember the emergency bus loan from DC to NYC. The convoy was BIG news at the time. Broadcast live in NY.

[@thescatman5029]

The Grummans became such a political and public relations nightmare for the City of New York, that the city just said, "bleep it!" And gave the buses away, with Jersey buying them, redoing the whole insides and running in their state for another 20 years! Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but didn't Cincinnati and Houston have similar frame and fire problems? But them cities couldn't afford to just "give their buses away," like New York!

[@ajaytransitproductions]

When it comes to Flxible or 870s, I'm coming. Not saying the RTSs aren't worthy, I'm saying I'm a Flxible guy.

[@jameswise3971]

CAT in Raleigh had six 35 foot buses from them. Thankfully no cracked frames. Just issues with the wheelchair lift.

[@burbank]

Thank you for posting this documentary. I remember when these Grumman buses were introduced as a young child living in New York City. I was amazed by their modern and distinctive look and appearance. I also remember when they started to have problems with them and Washington DC sent up their buses as loaners. Thereafter I remember seeing more of the RTS buses and they seemed more commonplace in New York City even at the time that we left and relocated and I saw them went into the 2000s as an adult each time I returned to visit New York City. Was the matter exaggerated? Was it really buyers remorse? Was it a conspiracy by GM? Definitely food for thought. Great video documentary and thanks again for posting!

[@GfrmdaBrnx]

Thanks for those Gruman memories.

[@jmjfanss]

Broward county transit, palm tran and Miami Dade transit ran the grumman 870/metro like a champ.

[@ChrisBrown-pu8sm]

I had no idea this Grumman Flxble bus had severe structural issues rendering it completely unusable. But it's true and a fact you'd find using the internet.

[@robertko5425]

Yep - it will be 40 years ago next February 6, 2024 that I last saw a MTA-NYCTA/MABSTOA Grumman Flxible Model 870 bus # PA94 operate in passenger service on a very cold frigid night on the M27 bus route on West 41 Street & 8th Avenue next to the Port Authority Bus Terminal in Manhattan. The next day they were all withdrawn from service and sent down to the Brooklyn Army Terminal. Too bad there was no iPhone cameras existed back in 1984, and it would have been very nice to have taken a picture of this bus to mark this uneventful event. I also think a lot of POLITICS was involved in this decision to remove these 851 buses from service. But it is a coincidence the following year in 1985 that GMC announced its intention to leave the transit bus manufacturing business, which they did in 1986 when they sold same to TMC of Roswell New Mexico, which then took over in late 1986 from GMC. Also Grumman sold Flxible to General Automotive Corp, Inc. in 1982, and resumed operations in 1983 with an updated and far superior Flxible Metro which replaced the trouble-prone Grumman Flxible model 870 which Grumman inherited from Rohr Industries, which owned Flxible from 1969 till 1978. Also Flxible CLOSED-UP shop in 1996 as well.

[@jorgefigueroa4437]

In 1991 AMA changes the blue and white belt (Las Penepe, due to New Progressisve Party colors) and the red and yellow (Shell/McDonald's) color scheme as people baptist to this buses, to a tri color, pink, bone white and orange with the new 35ft Flxible Metro to use in the new Metrobus system, from 91-001 thru 91-042, splitting 21 units to Metrobus and the other 21 to regular routes, this one features 10 lights in front destination sign, 5 in each section, and the side destination sign moves to the 3rd window near the rear exit door, all units from 1990 thru 1991 powered by 6L71TA Detroit Diesel, and the 1995 40ft units from 95-051 thru 95-096, powered by thw new Detroit Diesel Series 50 engine, but, the 95-001 thru 95-049 never build due to Flxible Bankruptcy, closing the Flxible Chapter on AMA from 1970 thru 2008. We never forget the Flxibles in Puerto Rico

[@j.r.devine]

I love the 6v71 engine better than the 8v71 on the Flxible Grumman 870 buses

[@AutomotiveTaurus]

Correct , the 6v71 stands out for the Flxible's(even Fishbowls) effort. But does not make value on the RTS' which is why the 1983 RTS' is everybody's worse favorite.

[@kalelc1996]

I think the 6v71 sounded cool in our 1981 & 1983 RTSs

[@AutomotiveTaurus]

@@kalelc1996 It does and when the operator hauls them, it sounded like a coach bus on the highway.

[@AutomotiveTaurus]

@@kalelc1996 Just like this....kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6K7ZIqoeZyFpaM

[@jorgefigueroa4437]

8v71 is supposed to used on suburban routes, some companies used on urban routes, and more diesel used than 6v engines

[@jayrivera8564]

I drove these buses for NJ transit along with their newer metro B’s, also bee lines flxible’s which were younger and ran great as well

[@Nostradamus_Order33]

That bus could not guarantee you would make it to your destination🤞🏼 A-frame was rock solid 😁😆

[@michaelbrooks1458]

They never showed the GM busses, GM had more problems than Flxbl ,but GM convinced the media not to talk about their bus problems

[@erich84502ify]

What gets me is they replaced old RTS or Gruman/Flxible buses with new lowfloors that broke down while new then, even better new low floors that were even WORSE.

[@joshmasterproductions9066]

Good Review As Always👍😎Can U Do The GM New Looks Next

[@kalelc1996]

Hmmmm 😉

[@Getmoneygetmoney09]

The Grummans basically fathered the Orion V buses

[@kalelc1996]

In a sense they did

[@dodge1515]

Assuming the MTA would have never brought another Flexible 870/Metro bus ( Except MTA LI bus), they probably would have lasted til about 2001 latest.

[@arandomdude189]

If they were they are going to be replaced with the Orion V's

[@georgekostician3229]

I have been on Google for hours looking for the Advertisement with people getting on the bus for hours and I can't find it can someone share the website it's on please

[@omar.w939]

When did the grummans 870s at green lines retire?

[@kalelc1996]

Mid 90s

[@Penske_Logistics_Roseburg-Ore]

I too, like the Grumman Flexible buses. My Dad drove those buses for Santa Clara County Transit now VTA from 1982 to 2010, that is when VTA has retired their Flexible buses and now only use GILLIG and New Flyer buses on their lineup.

[@DouglasWells-el5dv]

So After that Incident In 1980 and 1984 Mta Took off alot of those Buses and back then they were Using the RTS and the GM Fishbowl Models Back then

[@bparsley09]

You need to mention the steering problem that was the last straw. I was a maintenance instructor for NYCTA at the time. The TA was doing a campaign to upgrade a bearing in the steering column. At the same time, a steering column broke on a bus. There were no injuries, but the risk was too great. It was the last straw. I agree that NYCTA could have dealt with all of these problems, but why should they have too. If you bought a car and it kept having serious safety problems, would you just keep fixing it or would you make the dealer take the car back.

[@kalelc1996]

😯😯😯

[@r-7337]

The Grumman 870s look better than the RTS

[@jorgefigueroa4437]

Kal El, maybe the NYCTA looks like idiots, but in conclussion, they have a favoritism with the RTS, but the Grumman Flxibles are the best buses, my uncle drives here in Puerto Rico the 87002, the 87006 and the 87014. I have the photo of the 87006 in old colors in 1990 along with AMA Flxible New Look fishbowls.

[@savionmjallyeiither42luvr]

Hey what’s the theme song of this bus

[@freddiejames2083]

🥇🥇🥇🥇

[@tubblescousine257]

Cool I this I saw this back then but I guess this was way back then lol

[@humansavages832]

Marta Atlanta.

[@kedrinraymond5261]

I always wanted to drive a Grumman but they were retired before I started the job in May 1987

[@kalelc1996]

I've had the opportunity to take one for a spin several years ago

[@Ezekiel144k]

@@kalelc1996: How was it? A smooth drive or no?

[@raspergrey4935]

like bus

[@jc-qc3yu]

I seen this bus one time at Zerega cool bus

[@DouglasWells-el5dv]

I didn't know Mta Has These I Remember The RTS

[@TheShadowFox9642]

Detroit sounds good

[@RailfannerMario]

Can u make an Xcelsior bus review please

[@kalelc1996]

I will soon

[@RailfannerMario]

@@kalelc1996 good looks

[@AutomotiveTaurus]

You can visit my channel, I made most Xcelsiors review.

[@AutomotiveTaurus]

@@RailfannerMario kzbin.info/aero/PL1W8EsVttm5bd9tWXfuShs2bsZzGJSymh

[@jaredbrown3249]

This bus reminds of the one in speed that blows up in the beginning

[@kalelc1996]

That was a former SCRTD 1980 Grumman Flxible 870

[@DouglasWells-el5dv]

Oh Damn So the Edgewater Depot Was shutdown Because Serval GM Fishbowls Buses Collapse and sink in the water Thats Crazy

[@franksanders9677]

Can you do history on NJT

[@kalelc1996]

I'm not really keyed on New Jersey Transit

[@humansavages832]

Marta have a preserve Grumman bus.

[@kalelc1996]

That's a 1988 Flxible Metro B. Not a Grumman 870

[@christianluyando883]

@@kalelc1996 I don’t believe in the Grumman flexible 870s because I was not born in the 80s or 70s I was born in the 90s. But other than that, they were good buses until they’re replaced by nova bus RTS 04 for service.

[@TheDoumaDono]

This reminds me of CTA NABIs sadly they live very short life

[@ajaytransitproductions]

🤣 but yeah. I wish those survived longer than they did.

[@theestallion818]

Upgrade the engine every few years and a few maintenance work the buses would been fine!

[@savionmjallyeiither42luvr]

This was a great bus model it’s the mta that just wanted it to die

[@tricky_724]

I thought in 1995 the mta was gonna try these again..but we all know that they went out of business went out of business awarding it to orion

[@dodge1515]

The 1995 buses would have been Flexible Metro Es, basically updated 870s.

[@tricky_724]

Challenger 14 oh ok thx

[@beroyking554]

The Long island bus had a lot of them. They ran up in till 1999 2000

[@dodge1515]

@@beroyking554 I heard the last of them ran up until 2005. Killed off by the now nearly retired themselves 2004 Orion V CNGs at NICE bus.

[@beroyking554]

@@dodge1515 I didn't see any of them after 99 2000

[@RickyKraus]

Gillig Advantage And BRT Low Floor Buses Are Much Better Safer Transit Buses Than Grumman Flxible 870 And Flxible Metro With An Defects To Falling Apart As Busted Buses

[@kalelc1996]

Gillig Advantages & BRTS are boring

[@michaelbrooks1458]

Not saying FLXBL was perfect. Did you ever hear about the bus that was accidentally left in the paint bake all weekend. True story.

[@kalelc1996]

No way tell me about it

[@theestallion818]

Poor maintenance work smh 😮😮😮😮😮

[@DannyLok2812]

Excuse me Kal-El is Edgewater Depor still shut down

[@kalelc1996]

Yes it was never rebuilt

[@DannyLok2812]

@@kalelc1996 excuse me Kal-El if Nova built the Novabus RTS’s then why can’t they make more?

[@kalelc1996]

@@DannyLok2812 it would ne nice to see an RTS revival but it's far from likely

[@DannyLok2812]

@@kalelc1996 I agree. But how come their not making them anymore?

[@kalelc1996]

@@DannyLok2812 focusing more on low floor buses

[@stillnitro]

Yo what about there younger sisters. The metro D's

[@beroyking554]

Long Island also had the Metro A buses

[@kalelc1996]

There's no such thing as a Metro A it's really called "Grumman Metro"

[@beroyking554]

@@kalelc1996 Yes there is 1984 flxible metro A bus the numbers were PA1000-1034

[@kalelc1996]

@@beroyking554 it's really called a Grumman Metro

[@kalelc1996]

@RICO FROM PICO Fan, Historian though I have driven buses

[@paulcastillo9323]

Sctrd have 230buses