Thomas Friedman Takes Stock of The Israel-Hamas War

[@ke8213]

Regarding his comment about "one million Palestinians' marching to the border - they did the March of Return in 2018-2019. All it did was lead to them being picked off by snipers.

[@duffadler7164]

That is bullshit, untrue

[@stoor79]

And media didn’t cover that at all. Palestinians peacefully protested for over a year on Fridays and no coverage or anything.

[@23erisx]

Not true, @@stoor79 . I saw it in the media. Of course, I don't watch cable news, but they're not the only media in town.

[@Agtsmirnoff]

And they were very violent, and they demanded to be allowed into Israel to “take back” their lands

[@stoor79]

@@23erisxwhich media? Certainly not mainstream. Yes of course lesser known media outlets covered it but mainstream gave it little to zero coverage.

[@simonmarcus4025]

An allegation about Gazans voiced by some Israeli leaders -- that they are "all" supporters of Hamas and therefore not "innocent" -- gets a degree of endorsement from Friedman, who says the Hamas ideology, in effect, saturates Gazan society. Yet he is critical of Israel's unrestrained campaign of destruction. He needs to address this contradiction, which goes to the heart of judgments about Israel's strategy.

[@blank1608]

Thank you for making it worth reading the comment section.

[@dannydetonator]

Where do you see a contradiction if bost statements are true to a large degree? Solutions would be welcome more than condemnations of course, i just have to aee aviable one yet.

[@ytqclys]

To what extent should the Palestinian prisoners being exchanged also be considered hostages? They receive little if any due process, relative to what an Israeli citizen is entitled to.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

What do they receive compared to what Palestinians in Gaza get? You're aware in Gaza there are secret police who use torture and regularly exercise extrajudicial killings to punish "collaborators"?

[@earthlighteleven]

exactly - ok sure - give back the hostages on all sides - no brainer!

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

They get more due process in Israel than they would in Gaza. Arabs living in Israel have more rights than Arabs anywhere else in the Arab world.

[@dabrack9350]

You're right. They even had to hand in their suicide vests before they were even arraigned or indicted.

[@ytqclys]

@@earthlighteleven due process is needed to verify that your ludicrous, hateful thinking is justified.

[@5kribbles]

"what if a million Gazans walked to the border" 38:25 ? Like the Great March of Return ?? Where peaceful demonstrators were shot and killed and no one batted an eye?

[@Alex-vk9rx]

Friedman does seem very naive about this. Non violent protests can be easily broken up with a fairly minimal amount of force. It's not like the Palestinians haven't tried this before.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

There's no such thing as a "peaceful" Palestinian. They've walked away from every peace deal there has ever been. It is literally in H- a- m- a- s' charter that "peace is useless."

[@stoor79]

To Palestinians and many, Hamas represents resistance to an occupation that has suffocated Palestinians for decades. “Destroying Hamas” is an excuse by Israel to destroy Palestine. Hamas killed innocents and that’s terrible but Hamas represented resistance to many. So let’s understand 10/7 but it has to be understood in context of 9/7, 8/7, 2023, 2022, 2012, 2002, 1992, 1982, etc.

[@desertportal353]

And who gave Israel the green light to so so?

[@evamurray2564]

Who started all these conflicts? Let's see The Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel the day after the UN resolution passed to create Israel and Palestine. The Arabs lost this war. Immediately after the Arabs lost the war, they started, the Arab nations ethnically cleansed 900,000 jews from their countries, the Jewish nakba. This is why there are barely any jews in the surrounding Arab nations. These jews are not from Europe but were nonetheless fleeing persecution from Muslims whereas jews from Europe were fleeing the holocaust. This is why the Zionists created Israel as a space for jews to be safe from pogroms, holocausts, expulsions, unfair laws, dhimmi taxes, etc. Jews were stateless people since the Romans expelled them from their homelands and renamed it to Syria Palestina as an insult to the jews. Most of the Jews left, but some remained. These jews are referred to as Mizrahi jews or Middle Eastern jews the jews that the surrounding Arab nations violently expelled. A sad and disgusting circumstance of war. Israel accepted these refugees displaced from war, but the Arab nations kept the displaced Arab Palestinians in displaced camps. So basically, the creation of Israel was indigenous people reclaiming their lands from the British Mandate of Palestine. Israel is a diverse country with 2 million Arab muslims living in Israel proper. Some serve in the military, government, and judicial institutions. There are barely any jews in Muslim countries. Israel has accepted every 2 state solution peace deal offered, but the Palestinians reject through violence. Get off the internet and read history books. Read hamas' charter and look up the history of the grand mufti of Jerusalem, who worked with the nazis and even visited several concentration camps.

[@jeremy____5747]

"Oh but they're hiding among the civilian population!" I dunno, in Israel if a bank robbery goes sideways and the robber takes a hostage, do they just shoot the hostage? Maybe if you can only 'fight' by killing tens of thousands of civilians then maybe YOU SHOULDN'T FIGHT. Maybe it's too high a price. Maybe the fact that you're scared and angry isn't actually an excuse for anything.

[@AlyxCoe]

🎯

[@kleinpca]

"Israel needs a legitimate Palestinian partner." Sure, but that need doesn't make it likely that one will emerge. The notion that Israel could somehow create one is condescending to the Palestinians. Israel is not the only actor here.

[@Agtsmirnoff]

Friedman has been wrong on every major prediction and policy point in his entire career, why anyone takes him seriously is beyond me

[@Kahlua2U]

Depends on your definition of WRONG !!!!

[@PMickeyDee]

He sounds bizarrely reasonable here. That's normally my response to everything he either says or writes.

[@Agtsmirnoff]

@@PMickeyDee No Ezra even called him out on his insistence on a 2 state solution, how it is only a Western desire, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis want it

[@mensrea1251]

@@AgtsmirnoffSo what do the Palestinians and Israelis want?

[@Agtsmirnoff]

@@mensrea1251 Israeli opinion is split, with various amounts of Israeli/Palestinian land claimed by different groups. At a base, all want the pre-1967 borders at baseline if a 2-state solution, that is the starting point. Some are okay with these and will trade land for peace. Others are more extreme and want all of Palestinian land to create "greater Israel"..this subgroup would prefer the Palestinians just leave, but are happy to just annex the land and not give Palestinians any rights. And many people fall somewhere in the middle. Palestinians, largely, want Israel wiped out. This is true in Gaza and West Bank. Again, there are extremes. Some are okay with the Jews living there as a minority in "Palestine", many are not and want them deport or otherwise eradicated. There is a small cohort of Palestinians that want Israel and Palestine to combine into one country and share in some kind of federal system.

[@Dudemeister]

This guy is so cool. I love his recent opinion piece in the NYT where he compares America to a Lion and Iran to a wasp that burrows its eggs into its prey. Really smart analysis and not even remotely tainted by Western Chauvanism. Thank you for elevating him and allowing him to share his perspective Ezra!!!

[@robertmusil5831]

The NYT would like you to forget that Netanyahu was welcomed on to its Opinion pages on no less than 13 separate occasions. Own it, NYT.

[@TheWhitehiker]

And?

[@theocean1973]

I was amused by Friedman's tone of alarm when he says "Netanyahu isn't allowed to speak at U Wisconsin!" like that's such an urgent cancel culture issue, as well as his orientalist outrage when he said "These Houthi tribesmen --TRIBESMEN!!!!! --They bested us!" Scratch any bourgeois liberal and you reveal the secret imperialist bigot beneath.

[@goldencalf5144]

​@@TheWhitehikerAnd they fabricated accounts of rape committed on Oct 7th. Shameful

[@govindagovindaji4662]

39:00 I can see 1,000,000 Gazans walking to the border with the Peace Initiative, but I guarantee you that if the Palestinians in the West Bank tried to block the streets with a Peace Initiative, they'd have been mowed down by the IDF week after week, Tom - c'mon, be real here. Unless they took only to the streets that had no Jews residing there or 'needing the street' for travel - then maybe.

[@stoor79]

Netanyahu has never been for peace. Never. Thank you, Mr. Friedman for bringing it up. Per usual, the rebuttal is to move on or rationalize Netanyahu and his psychopathy.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

Hamas hasn't either. The difference being Netanyahu has never once ordered an October 7th, even though he has always had the power to do so.

[@1stormcat]

Ezra, you do so much putting our heads into Israeli headspace but wouldn't it be interesting to do the same for telling this story from a Palestinian perspective? Americans have rarely if ever done that!

[@desertportal353]

I am pretty sure that I already have the Palestinian perspective. Thanks but no thanks.

[@onedaysoon3]

What an odd thing to say.​@@desertportal353

[@martinbrizuela3289]

I mean he has covered it from the Palestinian perspective.

[@ginger22ly]

Ditto he has had Palestinian guests.

[@brianross9753]

He has centered many Palestinian voices. And Tom Friedman does not represent Israeli headspace.

[@thewolfpack5290]

Isn't Friedman the same guy that was pro-Iraq and Afghanistan war and still defends those as necessary? Why listen to someone who gets it wrong over and over again?

[@mensrea1251]

What exactly about what he said on this episode do you find not worth listening to?

[@earthlighteleven]

let people evolve...

[@mamahiyojiespizzeria3093]

Why was talking about how Sinwar could have had a million March to the border yet that happened. Great March of Return! Why didn’t Klein say anything about that.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

I can't imagine why Israel doesn't respond favorably to thousands of Palestinians storming their border. I can't imagine why they wouldn't like that. It's not like they have reason to deeply distrust Palestinians or anything... it's almost like the Israelis think the Palestinians want to ☠them all or something.

[@janeayre96]

Ezra. We need your voice out there. Louder please.

[@rebellerevelle]

Please interview Jeffrey Sachs. He has written and spoken about diplomatic proposals for deescalation, removing Hamas, ensuring peace and security for both Israelis and Palestinians, and steps to a 2 state solution.

[@chrisgray904]

Both of you completely drop the ball on casting aspersions on South Africa in this case. First, South Africa feels a special responsibility to the Palestinian cause given it's own past history of Apartheid, something neither of you acknowledge. Second, your argument about Ukraine is nothing more than over-intellectualized whataboutism.

[@earthlighteleven]

yup!

[@frankwood5792]

You forget totaly: Hamas is not a country - its a resistencegroup - this group cant get over 1948 - for good reason.

[@Ryanrobi]

That may be true but they are still dumb enough to anger there rival Israel who is about 100 times stronger so they may have a good reason they may not but it's just idiotic to piss off a monster I have a hard time feeling bad for people who pick fights and know they're going to get there ass handed to them. And as far as I can tell the average gaussian civilian really like Tomas and was a big fan of the attack so they're not really so innocent although it's tragic it's still partly on them as they support Hamas.

[@jackshumanshuman]

its about consequences living out of 1948 hasnt done palestinisns any good.they are they live on charity

[@michellemooresings]

They've been lied to. Talk to those who stayed. They didn't HAVE to leave. Those who huffed off in a storm, who STARTED a war (they lost) have successfully handed down that hate.

[@brianross9753]

Hamas governs a territory with 2 million residents. It isn’t simply just a resistance group. Yet despite it being a government to 2 million people, it doesn’t invest at all in any of those people

[@witwisniewski2280]

It ends with cultures in the region denouncing VENGEANCE and zero sum outlooks on existence. Evil already inflicted can not be undone, especially with additional evil. Evil only adds to, never subtracts from past evil.

[@mission9195]

I usually find Friedman appalling, but I think he was very insightful and reasonable in this interview. He represents a kind of sane and reasonable zionism that never recovered from Rabin’s assassination. I noted his condemnation of aipac and netanyahu’s arrogant and self-destructive visit to congress during the Obama administration. He reminds me of the DeKlerkian forces who understood that apartheid was doomed in 1990 and that it was time to make a deal with the ANC. When Friedman said Biden would be the last pro-Israel democrat in the White House, he’s admitting that time is not on Israel’s side. To be fair, no matter how much I’ve ever disagreed with Friedman, I admit that he truly is a great talker and storyteller-- a genuine talent!

[@kevinwhite1772]

Good discussion and things to think about.

[@allanc2827]

Friedman's style has always been narrative. It makes for a good story, but it may have no expository power.

[@ezekielsaltar4728]

Oh, and one minor item was added by Syria - right of return. LOL Also, the Palestinians would have still said no to 100% of West Bank and Gaza and E. Jerusalem because they want the their land from 1948. If you don't talk about that, you are just passing gas.

[@GabiAmado-e4q]

I think it is really important to separate anti-antisemitism from dislike of Netanyahu and his government. In my opinion, the most important issue to solve right now is to change Israeli government. If these concepts are not separated, another wave of anti-antisemitism will occur.

[@brianross9753]

I respect Friedman's commitment to a 2SS, and I agree with his analysis that there needs to be a political solution for the Palestinians for the day after, something that Netanyahu dangerously refuses to engage with. However, I think that Friedman's thinking is lacking in certain areas: 1. He says he wants a reinvigorated Palestinian government to control the West Bank and Gaza. But at the same time, he wants a ceasefire in exchange for all the hostages. That means leaving Hamas as the governing power of Gaza, and it would allow them to claim victory. This would undermine the goal of bringing Gaza and the West Bank under united Palestinian leadership under a reinvigorated PA. Friedman has not outlined a path to remove Hamas from governance of Gaza without military action. 2. He treats the demand for a full right of return in the Arab Peace Plan as an unimportant afterthought, even though it is not really compatible with the "Two States for Two Peoples" vision that he espouses. 3. He wants the US now to recognize a Palestinian state. Timing matters, and the US doing that now will allow Hamas to take credit for it and will only legitimize them more. The US should recognize a Palestinian state as a reward for taking meaningful steps towards peace and stability, not as a concession following a massive terrorist attack. 4. He doesn't engage with Israel's real and legitimate security concerns for a 2SS. Israelis look to the withdrawl from S. Lebanon and the withdrawal from Gaza and see that we got rockets from Hezbollah and Hamas in return. They look to Oslo, when Israel allowed the PA to govern Area A, and the 2nd Intifada followed shortly afterwards. And if Israel withdraws from all of the West Bank, the fear is that rockets can be launched to Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion from above just a few km away and from Jerusalem's municipal border. Friedman doesn't engage seriously with these concerns and doesn't address them at all. A 2SS solution would need to come with real security assurances that such a thing wouldn't happen, and these reasonable security concerns would have to be answered.

[@govindagovindaji4662]

4:47 I must:: "What has life in Northern Israel become"? Sad, lonely, angry, confusing, broken, away from home ~107 days now.

[@kenmartin5299]

Hamas is the criminal.

[@Bringadingus]

Israel is the most criminal state in the history of the world.

[@lhaviland8602]

Mr. Freidman presents several solid and well reasoned ideas and plans in this interview. Too bad none of them will ever happen because everyone in the region is playing their own game for their own selfish interests.

[@smurfette1509]

Agree. In fact, I think Mr. Freidman brought up a great point about just listening to what the sides say in their own language to their own people and I think what you'll come up with are more extreme views that don't have any room for solid, well reasoned ideas that would involve compromise and eventually lead to peace. It's tiring to have the world pay a price for people of the area that have made this an intractable problem.

[@TomHuckACAB]

Friedman is looking at the result of 40 years of him being wrong about everything. It is sobering eh

[@xy7118]

I thought Never Again meant For everyone, everywhere Both actions victmize innocents.

[@direwolf6234]

why anyone would continue to listen to friedman after all his terrible advice & opinions is a huge mystery .. and even that he still has a job at the times .. at what point does a person who has been so wrong finally get shown the door and not given a forum as if what he thinks matters any more ... ??

[@omurtasar7852]

really?? which advise is terrible?? You may disagree. What Israel is doing is NOT a good solution for jews. The whole world knows it except the Bibi crew.

[@mensrea1251]

What has he shared here in this episode that you find objectionable?

[@dannydetonator]

@mensrea.. After a month without an answer and many nearly identical staple diacreditation comments, i have little doubt that these are bot comments, wether paid by the autocratic alliance or not. Some doesn't even know they're soing bot job for free by repeating qhat their indocteinators say on

[@Notfunnysam]

Seriously, you're going to 'whatabout' South Africa? Because Ukraine?

[@robertmusil5831]

How short is your memory, Tom? Tom Friedman's NYT article "Foreign Affairs; Forgive and Forget" on August 11, 1998 states: "In May, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright met with the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat in London, presented them with a carefully balanced U.S. peace plan and told them each they had until the next week to say yes. If they did, the President himself would oversee the opening of final-status talks between them. If they said no, reporters were told, the U.S. would make clear publicly its plan and who was blocking it. Mr. Arafat said yes, Mr. Netanyahu said no." Tom - did this happen or not?

[@svenhanson398]

I think it was yesterday, Mr Bibi said a two-state solution will never happen under his watch.

[@joshuafrank3803]

How's your record calling balls and strikes for the last 26 years? Give me a break. The man has changed his opinion on matter just as we all have. Or are you so pure that you have never been dissuaded from a poorly considered idea?

[@svenhanson398]

@@joshuafrank3803 It goes to show that he was never serious in the first place. And sure I have changed my opinions but on such a crucial question, never.

[@makeadifference4all]

What's your point?

[@mensrea1251]

Seriously, what’s your point?

[@margaretmcnamee6411]

Thank you for this analysis. It has always been true that revenge and violence never wins the peace. If only Israel had listened to you.

[@sbaumgartner9848]

Friedman makes some good points. 1) No one has held Hamas accountable for what they did 2) I didn't know there have been Palestinians speaking out on social media about living under Hamas since Oct 7 and what was/is their view of an improved life for Palestinians. 3) It's true that the Kurds, Yazedis and I will add the Rohingya's would love to have even one day of international support regarding their terrible situation. 4) The other Arab countries have largely ignored the Palestinians amap. I also agree the Friedman at the end of the talk when he mentioned the positive and negatives aspects of Israel and the Palestinians. Thanks Tom.

[@RichardParker2008]

And the Uighurs in western China...

[@realitywins9020]

And the Armenians of Artsakh /Nagorno Karabakh, the Assyrians, the people of Darfur, the people of West Papua, and the entire population of Syria

[@dt6822]

Pathetic whitewashing of crimes. They haven't had one day of international support because YOU dominate everything constantly and place yourself at the centre of attention. The most insufferable people of history. You wouldn't stop coming to our countries for hundreds of years, always making yourself the centre of attention, forcing us to change everything to suit you, and then today, you're complaining that people and cultures, products of your insistence on making everything about minorities, in a media landscape owned BY YOUR PEOPLE almost entirely, aren't getting enough coverage and god forbid someone should point out that Palestinians are humans too, while we hear about your god, your holy books, your values, your priorities.

[@Cerebral.786]

Ridiculous for Friedman to compare the terrorist attack on Mumbai to what horror Hamas inflicted on helpless civilians including babies and violent rape. It was a highly personalized attack , hostages taken and the proportion of Israeli’s killed in proportion to its population is staggering.

[@brianross9753]

Not to mention that Pakistan, for all its problems, did arrest many of those involved in planning the attack after it happened. LeT was not the government of Pakistan in the same way Hamas is the government of Gaza. If the PA could have arrested Sinwar and Haniyeh after the attacks, we wouldn’t have the war that we have. But that’s not the world we live in

[@Faithfulsheperd]

The Palestinians or the Arabs need us to look at them in a new light this show helps with that! The Israeli on the other hand with the exception of a few have been brainwashed so terribly by their media and 😢 radical right government that they need more help than the Arabs. Saudi Arabia just allowed music in public places,more just divorce laws and more women rights these things were not even imaginable 5 years ago proving the theory that if religion doesn't serve man It is bent to serve man.

[@dt6822]

The Israeli population is the most radical, far-right, fascistic population of any alive today. This is a population that after 11,000 children were murdered was polled recently and 93% said Israel isn't using enough force and should use even more force. They haven't been brainwashed. They have always been supremacistic, racist and unapologetically ethno state.

[@FBerg5646]

Comparing the attack on India in 2008 in which 175 people died, to what happened in Israel on cot 7 is just delusional. A population of 1.5 Billion suffering an attack with a tole of 175, is almost daily occurrence in Israel if we look at this proportionately. And of course there is the brutality of the attack which was unparalleled in the modern world.

[@johnaweiss]

34:58 "We Want to Live" isn't the only pro-peace, anti-Hamas initiative. EZRA, WHY DO YOU KEEP FOCUSES ON THOSE IN POWER? The vision of peace is NOT going to be built by power structures. It's going to be created by regular people on both sides, in coalitions for peace. EZRA, PLEASE GIVE GRASSROOTS GROUP YOUR ATTENTION.

[@jagamarszewska6158]

D you see hw again Palestinians are not the subcject, how about their independence is conditioned by the occupier and it's coated int progressive and controversial statments but is denying them basic rights just in a very different way

[@victoriapearce6145]

Brilliant and oh so wise conversation. If only this clarity was practiced

[@trespittman1055]

Imagine getting a talking-to from your friends dad and it's Tom Friedman

[@dabrack9350]

I am trying to listen to all of this just in case Tom says something unexpectedly insightful. I am only ten minutes in but as yet have heard nothing about justice being delivered to the savages. I expect I will require large quantities of anti-depressants.

[@jamesfromtheusa]

16:33 He says it’s a legitimate issue and then immediately changes the subject

[@linowes]

I am very thankful for Tom Friedman's thinking. Outlining a forward path that can be a source of inspiration.

[@smurfette1509]

Thanks so much, Ezra, for bringing on Tom Friedman. I know this is something that I requested (I'm not saying you brought him on because of me; rather, I'm just saying I'm grateful you had him on). You both are my favorite people when it comes to analyzing Middle East events. Please take Tom's offer and have him on again at some point in the future. Events will continue to unfold and at some point I'll want to hear from him again.

[@andrewross2247]

There is so little fact here. A movement away from habitual victimhood might benefit Israel and Jews in the US. Your hubris is jaw dropping.

[@johnaweiss]

26:21 Why does he think the U.S. could persuade the Palestinians to partner for peace? Has that ever worked?

[@glondikeink2167]

Yes, Israel had made a great mistake. Tjey should have kept their cool and ask the world to stop financing Hamas and sign that treaty with the Saudis. Pity they did not have a different leadership. They could have diminished Hamas without a single fallen soldier and got the hostages back. What a mess it is now.

[@harveyjswanson]

a haiku for the season: a slippery slope...onto a flat frozen lake...skating on thin ice.

[@WhataMensch]

Yes Mr. Friedman, South Africa not being engaged in a great powers proxy war in europe precludes them from helping one of their staunchest allies over the past decades defend itself from genocide. God this man is a real piece of work.

[@MrAbuYaz]

Not genocide

[@ecyranot]

Obviously Thomas Friedman knows his stuff. But the inclusion of the right to return in his proposal is a fatal flaw. Of course Syria, Saudi Arabia, and others supported it. There's no way--and this was true before October 7--Israel will ever agree to a right to return. It would be suicide, or at the least a huge gamble that could result in the end of not just a Jewish state but the existence of Israel at all. The full diplomatic relations is nice but once the Palestinians have majority control of Israel, it's over.

[@buckstraw925]

Lots of good things in here but the idea of negotiating with Hamas is folly.

[@MarkusBohunovsky]

So, someone is (probably? hopefully?) going to point out how ignorant my post is, as I'm not an actual military expert, but I just have to ask this question (and the KZbin comment section must be the best place for naive questions, right?!) So: 1. Gaza is only a few miles wide. It seems that any point in Gaza whatsoever can be reached within less than 4 minutes by helicopter or plane or drone, from the Israeli side of the border. 2. Even in Google Maps I can see every square inch of the territory to a resolution that can easily distinguish individual persons (if Google did not remove them)--so I am assuming the Israeli Military can get that resolution on a live feed? (I understand geo-synchronized satellites can only be over the equator, but the angle may be sufficiently good, or otherwise a multiplicity of non-stationary satellites can be used?) 3. AI should easily be able to learn to pick out rocket launchers (on vehicles or hand-held) as they MUST be launched from an open area and not their underground tunnels, as well as any larger armed vehicles or crowds of Hamas fighters. So: Rather than bombing civilians into oblivion (even if not "intended" as targets), why not employ AI to immediately alert the military of any rocket launches, or armed fighters, have helicopters (and possibly drones) stand by in large numbers near the border, send them immediately to the location of the fighters and take them out. (yes, that may also involve SOME civilian bystanders, but should be much less and more proportional even in the worst case.) Sure, if Hamas stays in their tunnels you won't get them. But if they can't launch a single attack in the next 10 years, what does it help them that they can keep hiding in the tunnels? In the meantime hostage negotiations and small targeted searches and attacks could also continue to attempt to bring the hostages back. It just seems like bombings of civilians (even given that Hamas fighters are hiding amongst them) are not just hurtful to Israel's reputation, but also seem extremely inefficient ways to take out Hamas fighters.

[@donfleming3534]

Because that would be proportional and not hateful enough? We live in an upside-down world. Thanx for your comment.

[@AlyxCoe]

Completely agree. Surely Israel has the necessary military intelligence and capability to do exactly what you described. This is an asymmetrical "war", meaning, not strictly a "war" at all but deliberate depopulation for the purposes of expanding Israeli settlements. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

[@Hesham_MK]

"Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them" - Albert Einstein... It's been 75 years, what part of that quote don't these people understand and I'm referring here to both parties to this conflict.

[@lamoitte1]

It is a dystopian world when UNRAWA whose staff took part in 10/7 human butchery is nominated for NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AND Israel, the victim, is dragged to ICJ accused of genocide and Gaza's Arabs call themselves Palestinian, though they have no lineage or connection to the ancient Palestinians, who entered that territory 1200 B.C., same as the ancient Israelites .

[@meryldanziger4870]

Every one of Tom Friedman's points is spot on. Such a clear-sighted, articulate and compelling spokesman. Bravo and kudos to both of you.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

Nah, he said the Suez Canal is "EMPTY" then claimed there's only 2 countries in the coalition against the Houthis. Both of those statements are outright lies. Suez has had a 30-40% drop in traffic. And 10 nations are in the coalition against the Houthis, US, UK, Netherlands, Canada, Bahrain, Australia, Denmark, Greece, Norway, Singapore, and Sri Lanka are participating directly in the Coalition -- and both Spain and Italy have sent warships operating outside of the US military command umbrella. If he's that dishonest about such incredibly important pieces of critical information, imagine how dishonest he's being about everything else.

[@donfleming3534]

Just give it time. Every insight , if followed, will be proven counterproductive and cost buckets of somebody's blood. Par Friedman... the thinking man's fool.

[@tamparker854]

"way too casual about civilian deaths" Ashamnu.

[@duffbattye5235]

Thanks for this content. Really well put together and appreciated. from the UK

[@scarletsletter4466]

48:14 is the most important point in this podcast. When you actually speak to people in the MENA region, you lose all hope for anything like a 2-state solution. We in the West are incredibly myopic. We like to believe in the universality of western morals & neoliberal ideals. We assume that everyone shares our goals of freedom, prosperity & peace. But you learn this is false once you live or work in the Middle East or Asia. When you really speak to Islamists you learn that they truly believe in an afterlife & care more about eliminating Israel than their own lives. There’s no amount of land you can give a ji hadi neighbor to ensure peace. So, are we ever going to take these factions at their word, & if we do, & if the only logical conclusion is that they cannot live peacefully as neighbors- what is the most humane path? Is it not more humane to let 1 side finally win, than to have a permanent refugee population? The status quo cannot continue. Palestinians population has TRIPLED while they’re the world’s highest per capita recipients of foreign aid, >60% from the US. They’ve wasted BILLIONS of dollars on tunnels & arms to harass Israel. They’ve added ji hadism to every level of UNWRA school curriculum, radicalizing their children. They’re now majority underage, impoverished, unskilled. They have no infrastructure, unified govt or industry that could support a country. Western money is making matters worse, just like when we dump money on unemployed impoverished youth crowded in urban housing in developed nations 😢

[@ericbray4286]

Your racism is showing.

[@DeathRayGraphics]

Oh, by all means, explain how *you* would deal with the Palestinians' audacious breeding. Also, when you have Bibi Netanyahu evoking the slaughter of the Amalakites as justification for this genocide, you are in no position to declare that it is Muslims alone who are the religious crazies.

[@mensrea1251]

@@DeathRayGraphicsI have wondered myself how it is such an oppressed people who are claiming genocide could balloon in population ten-fold in 75 years.

[@mensrea1251]

@@ericbray4286You mean a Jew cannot hate a Palestinian? How about a Palestinian declaring that the Jewish state should be erased? What world do you live in?

[@DeathRayGraphics]

@@mensrea1251 The genocide is happening NOW, not ten years ago. And it is the entire world that is making that claim at this point, not "them". I'm also sorry that you never got the "birds and bees" talk. People fuck and have kids, even under miserable circumstances. That is how populations grow.

[@tanshen1031]

It’s like listening to a bunch of utilitarians trying really hard to not appear antisemitic as well.

[@flyingfig12]

The tunnels and where they are built speaks volumes.

[@schrecksekunde2118]

the people in the Warsaw Ghetto knew what the German's reaction would be but decided to go ahead

[@govindagovindaji4662]

I think weekly festivals could be set up where as many as like, Palestinians and Jews attend, donning simple white robes, wearing helmets as the only must wear head-gear, carrying no ID's, using hand signals alone to communicate, and intermingle over music, juice, soft drinks, tea, coffee and food. Let their fears dissipate and their hearts shine.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

I guarantee the Palestinians will consider that a "target rich environment."

[@conniemcfarland3590]

Brilliant!

[@s13rr4buf3]

Thank you for interviewing Tom Friedman, if only to reveal how misguided and off the mark he is.

[@George4Greece]

Absolutely killer episode

[@tee39]

This discussion is almost the rarest with respect to its bold thought and talk AND very realistic and true … I live in that region and see/ live all this ! Friedman is on the dot 👍

[@TwilightBornGirl]

This Thomas fellow seems supper biased.

[@Johnconno]

'Hamas started this war.' Really? 🤮

[@vokoaxecer]

His arguments are full of whataboutism

[@salassian3162]

Of all the people with knowledge and wisdom regarding international relations in the Middle East, you pick friedman to talk to???

[@Kahlua2U]

AMEN to the opinions on Netanyahu.

[@rotihit]

I want to comment about India's lack of response to the 26/11 terrorist attack in Mumbai. It revealed that the Indian govt. was pursuing a policy of strategic restraint, and it incentivized non-state actors based in Pakistan to conduct terrorist operations in India with impunity. I don't care about moral victories, the truth is that Indian citizens bore a high cost of strategic restraint.

[@JeffreyGolant]

And of course, the government of Pakistan did not enable and support that terror attack. But why let facts interfere with a story that makes Friedmen feel good ?

[@dshappir]

In 1939 Hitler invaded Poland knowing it would force Britain and France to declare war. According to Thomas Friedman's logic Britain and France should have abandoned Poland as it would have given them the "moral high-ground". Hitler would have certainly been deterred from any future acts of aggression... There are currently 200,000 internally displaced Israelis afraid to return to their home for fear of another Hamas attack. Do you think doing nothing would have convinced them to go back home? Also, Hamas has been holding Avera Mengistu hostage for a decade - do you really believe doing nothing would have convinced Hamas to return the hostages? That said, I agree with Thomas Friedman about Netanyahu.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

Don't forget that as early as 1936 the Palestinians were working directly with the Nazis to produce anti-Semitic propaganda that was spread across the entire middle east. Amin al Husseini was personally recording broadcasts from the most powerful radio transmitter in the world, directly from Germany. The man was shaking hands with Hitler before he returned to Gaza after the war to help setup the government there. Palestinians were working directly with the Nazis 12 years before the Nakba even happened.

[@robertmusil5831]

Recall Edward Said's appraisal of Thomas Friedman in 1989: “There is little self-irony, no twinge of doubt in what he ladles out.” In 1989, Edward Said also observed that Thomas Friedman possessed a “special combination of disarming incoherence and unearned egoism that gives him his cockily alarming plausibility. On the basis of this interview, Said's assessment of Friedman seems generous.

[@MrXammos]

Given Said served as an advisor to Arafat from the early 1970s onward, I give little credence to anything he says.

[@MrAbuYaz]

Ha! Said, the pot calling the kettle black.

[@MrAbuYaz]

Friedman lies and misrepresents with such ease. Remarkable. Those uninitiated to the nuances of the history miss his perfidy.

[@robertmusil5831]

I get it. You don't like it when Palestinians speak. Your comment merely advertises your ignorance of Said's well-documented criticism of Arafat since Oslo - even leading to the banning of his books by Arafat! So clearly we should give NO credence to anything you have to say on the topic. A classic "self-own", MrXammos.@@MrXammos

[@tsukeisawa7786]

How many hostages did Pakistan take from India?

[@donfleming3534]

I turned this video on early this morning without knowing who was on. I had listened to Ezra before and thought I would be entertained and informed as i previously had been. Then I heard the two most dreaded words in conspicuous conversation "Tom Friedman" and I instinctively reached out to end it before my ears could be insulted by the sound of the most historically amoral , butt licking, panderer to disgrace the american publishing scene in the 21st century. How does a man who has been so complicit in guiding this country down the wrong course get to lecture anyone about anything? My faith in the essential Ezra Klein podcast is no more.

[@ytqclys]

I have seen reports that at least some of the killings of children was committed by Gazans who opportunistically participated in the attack, and were not directed by Hamas.

[@krl970]

yes, and the civilians sold a man's head as well as the human's they stole to hamas for money - so what's the difference between a civilian and a terrorist?

[@ytqclys]

@@JODura1 Maybe I remembered wrong, I can't find this specific report now. I can only find this about Gazan civilians undertaking a kidnapping kzbin.info/www/bejne/haKodH2cZb-NaZo

[@bcazz5202]

WW the US do? Oh, let's see, do we have any historical examples? Oh, yeah.. how many tied in the twin towers attack? How many died in the subsequent wars in Afganastan and Iraq?

[@mznxbcv12345]

On the 7th, there were no direct attacks on civilians, only collateral damage. Out of the 769 names on the Haaretz dataset, 462 were military personnel, including 55 soldiers, 13 privates, 59 corporals, 200 sergeants (45 of whom were sergeant majors), 48 commanders, 32 lieutenants, 5 lieutenant colonels, 6 colonels, 37 officers, 10 inspectors, 6 intendents, and 2 Lance Corp. This was a military defeat, and they are taking it out on the rest. Out of the 1148 total names, 403 were military personnel, 59 belonged to the police, and 668 were civilians. This means that the collateral damage on the 7th was lower than any of the iTf "mowing" operations, which has a ratio of 6:1. The ratio of civilians to military personnel killed on the 7th was 1.6:1, with 462 military personnel out of 1148 total. which is a hundred times lower than the 162:1 ratio from the 162,000 accumulated casualties over only 14 years of "mowing" operations. is 162:1 and not "just" 6:1 based on analyzing UN OHC data from 2008 to 2022. A 162 :1 ratio means that for every 162 civillians, 1 military personnel is a casualty. The 7th had a ratio of 1.6:1, a hundred times lower. The reported (not all have their ages listed) ages of the victims are as follows: 0-4: 2 civilians 5-12: 8 civilians 13-17: 14 civilians 18-25: 132 civilians 26-40: 119 civilians 41-60: 55 civilians 61+: 40 civilians Military Losses 18-25: 258 active duty military personnel 26-40: 60 active duty military personnel 41-60: 17 active duty military personnel 61+: 1 active duty military personnel -Yocheved Lifshitz account - 'they treated us well' -Yasmin Porat account - 'i.T.f kxilled my husband' civilians were taken to have swaps for the civilians rotting in prisons without charge on the other side. An excess of ten thousands, all before the seventh haaretz datasheet titled title: xsraxl's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hxmxs Attacks, Mxssxcres and the xsrxel-Hxmxs Wxr There is a more detailed report of of oct 7th titled "I scrapped the information about 1096 of the 1460 killed on 7th of October Attack. Children Less than 1%" A study by brown in 2021 has these figures for the past 20 years of engagement of US policy: indirect deaths 4.5-4.7 million, direct 905-940,000 , in other words 6 million deaths and 38 million displaced. This is relevant because of the Oded Yinon Plan. In the Tantura (2022) documentary there is a iTf man who says that they took a pregnant woman, made bets whether the baby is a boy or a girl, disemboweled and cut her stomach open to check who won, another one talking about school children who were raising their the hands, the same way kids do in a classroom, after he rounded them up. He then kept firing. Both laughing merrily and casually at the recollection. In another documentary '1948: Creation & Catastrophe', a survivor speaks about women getting violated infront of their family members by iTf. She was a child at the time and still wept as an elderly woman. For more recent atrocities, "Breaking the Silence" record statements by the iTf themselves, they recount the events witht he same casualty their forebears do. The journalist Gideon Levy once was at a checkpoint in the west bank where the soldiers there force the ambulance to wait an hour before someone clears it through as part of a routine while they watch Tv. The journalist waited with the ambulance then got angry, confronted the iTf soldier asking him what if it were your mother in the ambulance, the soldier made the same face and pointed his weapon at him. This was many years ago, it had only gotten worse since. They simply dont see them as human

[@cambiacommunity2139]

Though I agree with the general narrative, I can't imagine this is a mere territorial dispute. Is hizbullah also having the same dispute? Does Iran claim to have experienced a nakba by Israel? I loved what you said " don't listen to what they tell you in English" I've been listening to them in Arabic and farsi, it's a death cult, not a matter of territorial dispute

[@comets4sale]

The land dispute is at the core and has been for decades, whatever else you might want to add.

[@onedaysoon3]

Palestinians are still having their homes and land, including farmland, taken from them. I just learned about a Palestinian Christian family in Hebron who are fighting to keep the farm that was in their family for 100 years because the Israeli government has claimed. Meanwhile, the settlers destroy their property and their crops to try to drive them away. Zionism is racist and a plan of theft.

[@lisawilliamson5012]

The two of you together are a great duo. I enjoyed listening to this discussion.

[@tamaliaalisjahbana6849]

Finally, Ezra you are starting to see the writing on the wall. But here is something you still do not understand: What does Hamas run on? On the human element which is based on hatred, revenge, the destruction of Israel? No Ezra. It is based on the same thing that American revolutionaries fought on: the right to have a country where they are free and first class citizens, where they can express their culture and beliefs. The same thing as stated in the UN Charter: the right of self-determination. Netanyahu has now clearly stated what the day after scenario is: All of Palestine from the river to the sea will be Israel. Now you know the real meaning of from the river to the sea. And Friedman is wrong. The day after the day after the Palestinians will not say to Yahya Sinwar, what the hell were you thinking? No liberated people who have fought for their freedom ever say that to their leaders.?Why because they know they sacrificed for the future, for their great grand children, for the freedom and survival of their culture and society. You take freedom for granted. You No longer understand its value. How will it end if there is never a free Palestinian state beside Israel? This is the writing on the wall, Ezra: Israel will be destroyed and disappear because no nation especially one as small as Israel can ultimately survivor if the whole world says you are wrong and is against you.

[@berniemadoff9688]

A cursory examination of Friedman's career would indicate that this is a real "Bottom of the Barrel" episode. Friedman is exactly the kind of generalist commentator that has made us dumber. Subject matter experts are needed here, not the Cinnabon airplane guy. The back half of this episode is a masterclass of arrogance and ignorance. (Not from Ezra.)

[@ke8213]

Kind of with you to be honest. Couldn't have said it better.

[@makeadifference4all]

Friedman's interview is illuminating, and he knows tons about the Middle East. Of course, he's fallible, with his support of America's 2003 invasion of Iraq being his most notable mistake. So, listen to him, learn, analyze, and reach your own conclusions.

[@keep-ukraine-free]

@berniemadoff9688 You're an absolute nobody -- telling us about someone whose phone number is saved by world leaders.

[@mensrea1251]

Like every hating comment here about Friedman seems to be just venting and bald statements about how terrible and wrong he is. Ok fine, but WHY? Why are haters so fkn dumb they cannot even articulate the reasons why they hate the guy so much.

[@berniemadoff9688]

@@mensrea1251 There are many sources. Two starting points are simply his well documented criticisms in Wikipedia. I would also direct you to Matt Taibbis criticism. It's not hard to find. It boils down to arrogance, consistent name dropping and inflation of self importance in global initiatives. (This episode is full of the "I wrote this then everyone said it was great!".) Also, his long history of being completely wrong about something then pretending that the written record of his position on it was misunderstood. (Iraq War.)

[@rosathomas3574]

Wouldn’t the Palestinian right of return mean that Jewish Israelis risk being outnumbered by Palestinians, thus - if the country wanted to remain a democracy - Israel would no longer be a Jewish state? Isn’t that one of the main points of contention?

[@MrAbuYaz]

Yes

[@JaneFleesTexas]

Why does Israel have to be a “Jewish” state? They claim to be a secular democracy, no? Why couldn’t people there all have equal rights and truly be a democracy? Speaking in terms like “outnumbered” just contributes to the division. It doesn’t have to be this way.

[@MrAbuYaz]

@@JaneFleesTexas the answer is Jewish history. Now go learn it.

[@keep-ukraine-free]

@rosathomas3574 You're confusing something exclusive to a "1-State solution". Friedman describes a "2-State solution" with Palestinians having a right to return. This could happen as either, (1) they can return only to the new country of Palestine, or (2) they return to both countries (whichever country their ancestral property is in). In either case, few Palestinians would return to Israel. So tiny, that it won't affect the political balance of Israeli politics. 7 million Israelis. And 1.5 million displaced Palestinians (very few of those 1.5 million Palestinians would want to live in Israel, which they see as racist). Even if all 1.5 million moved there, they would still be a tiny fraction compared to 7 million Jewish Israelis. Even the "worst-case" would not affect Israel.

[@harrypmay]

@@keep-ukraine-free the Right of Return isn’t for 1.5 million but 5 million as it encompasses the original refugee’s children and grandchildren.

[@cambiacommunity2139]

It sounds like Egypt could have solved the Palestinian problem by accepting them in, the same way that Israel has taken in all the Arab Jews who've lived there for hundreds of years.

[@keep-ukraine-free]

@cambiacommunity2139 Friedman said if someone can't hold ALL 7 points (ideas) in their mind at the same time, then they have no idea what they're talking about (they're clueless on this very complicated topic) -- they can't sit at the adult table. You fail to understand his 1st point on Palestinians (it's why NO Palestinian will flee & why NO Arab state takes-in Palestinians).

[@onedaysoon3]

So Israel can steal everything from the Palestinians, and they are made whole by letting them start over in a new country?

[@5kribbles]

It's nice when you can just define all your enemies as "non-state" actors. Then you don't need to worry about Geneva conventions and human rights.

[@mensrea1251]

Are you saying Hamas is a state actor?

[@5kribbles]

@@mensrea1251 If I'm not mistaken Hamas won the last Palestinian elections. If we believe there is a two state solution probably we need to recognise both states. Friedman makes this argument in the podcast.

[@nigelmcguinness]

Just way too late this type of commentary. Where have you been the last three months?

[@mensrea1251]

What are you talking about, Friedman and others have been on Ezra’s podcast talking about these very things since almost immediately after 10/8. Stop being lazy and look up the podcasts, they’re all there. Geezus.

[@Kahlua2U]

😊😂Sa. I did NOT send this

[@comets4sale]

And get their land back.

[@iart2838]

You trust Hamas stats?

[@mensrea1251]

No, but not even the IDF denies severe human casualties in Gaza.

[@howardleekilby7390]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@yoelmarson4049]

Not sure if TF is objective about Netanyahu. Perhaps he has overstayed his time but he is not a bad actor. If he is, then most world leaders are

[@benjamingoldstein6298]

he's been vehemently fighting palestinian statehood and undermining the peace process since the 1990s.

[@scarletsletter4466]

It’s interesting because Netanyahu is almost universally disliked by world leaders. Disliking Netanyahu is the 1 thing Biden & Trump agree on 😂

[@keep-ukraine-free]

@yoelmarson4049 Experts in psychiatry/psychology see authoritarianism as an aspect of psychopathy - a mental disorder. Bibi is extremely authoritarian. He's spent 4 years trying to quash Israel's Supreme Court -- to put it under Prime Ministerial control. Most informed people see that as inherently authoritarian behavior.

[@yoelmarson4049]

@@benjamingoldstein6298 since the 2000s when every step towards peace was accompanied with more violence. Support for your namesake was from people who preferred the statusquo over bus bombings

[@allanc2827]

Tom Friedman suffers from M. A. D. or "male answering disorder," meaning that a certain type of man will Sound confident when talking about any topic regardless of whether he actually knows about the subject matter. Unfortunately, too many people confuse confidence with competence. Friedman is full of himself and probably full of something else as well.

[@flavoredwallpaper]

Well that wasn't helpful. If you don't think he's correct, tell us how and why. You're just slinging mud. Actually attack his points and tell us why he's wrong.

[@itsikmiz]

Please bring someone that supports Israel. The show is too one sided.

[@desertportal353]

Exactly. Thanks.

[@brianross9753]

I do agree that they should bring the perspective of a typical center-right Israeli

[@smurfette1509]

@@brianross9753 I think I agree with that. I don't think Ezra has had on anyone from the center-right. If I'm wrong, let me know which show it was (it would help if date of show was included which would make it easy to find).

[@vokoaxecer]

Let's talk about Nakba

[@Ihatehandlesfashyyoutube]

Let’s talk about Jizya and Islamic supremacy

[@NJIT22]

Every war has Negative consequences, including human, financial, political. And in this conflict, the question is not who is going to win, but who is going to bear more cost, and Hamas definitely will have devastating consequences for what they have done. Israel will have to restore the assertive stance in the region so nobody in the future will dear to repeat something like this.

[@eadler1220]

Ezra, you keep mentioning that 64% of Gazans polled/interviewed said they lost a relative in this war. But as both WSJ and NYT mentions, half of Gaza’s population has ties to Hamas or Islamic Jihad militant groups. Therefore, it is not surprising that at least 50% of those polled had lost a relative, since they were likely enemy combatants actively fighting the IDF. The rest of 14% could have either been members of the same family (with the 50%), or collateral damage.

[@earthlighteleven]

who gives a f..k??? people and children and dying, being tortured, starved, who cares about figures?! These are HUMANS!!!!!

[@Ogmin108]

What is happening in Ukraine is dark but nowhere near a genocide; poor call.

[@untermunchkin4380]

Deciding whether to agree to a cease-fire is a military decision, which must resolve military issues with military evidence. What are the military issues Israel must resolve before agreeing to a cease-fire? What is the military evidence pertinent to resolving those issues? What expertise if any do you have in identifying and then resolving those military issues? What evidence if any have you marshaled to resolving those issues? Are your evidentiary sources superior to the IDF's? Deciding whether a defendant is guilty of genocide is a question international criminal law. What is the statute that Israel allegedly violated? Don't lie and claim you have read it when you clearly have not. Even if you have, cite here the specific provisions that Israel allegedly violated and cite the case law that interprets those provisions. You cannot even list the evidence that Ireland oops my bad that Sou...Ireland cited at the hearing. At an evidentiary trial on the merits, OJ got away with murder. Maybe Israel will do the same. You are mellow within your echo chamber. Why not debate Douglas Murray, Bari Weiss, or Ben Shapiro----all of whom openly debate in hostile forums. Better still. why not just STFU about topics, which lay people should avoid like the plague: military science and international criminal law.

[@joelferguson8714]

It's not your land, none of it.

[@Alex-vk9rx]

Who are you talking to bro?😂

[@mensrea1251]

Neither is the land you’re currently living on. So leave. Right now. Just leave.