O Glorious Day, It Sounds Like More Top-Down Zelda Is Coming

[@Pyrple]

see this is the way. Mario, Zelda and Metroid all ought to alternate between 2D and 3D entries, each made by different teams.

[@extremepayne]

Kirby too. And I would like DK to be on that list too. Give him a second shot at 3D. (Or even just make another 2D one, it’s been 10 years…)

[@Tbonezz11]

i think something like this would generally benefit all long running series that have at least 2 major types of gameplay. monster hunter already does this switching between larger and slower-paced hunts i.e in world and quick fast-paced hunts in rise. fire emblem really comes to mind for me as a series that would benefit from doing this by switching between more open sandbox-y experiences like three houses and more on rails gameplay like the gba games and por.

[@BlueSparxLPs]

@@vivi1649 Splitting hairs. We all know topdown is the more accurate term, but 2D is the common vernacular informed by the context.

[@tolstartheking]

@@extremepayneWe don’t know if it sill hold true for Kirby yet.

[@extremepayne]

@@tolstartheking “ought” to. It’s barely been true for Metroid-only really for a short while during the GBA/GC era. It might be true again if Prime 4 gets followed up by a 2D entry

[@nin10ja]

Zelda is starting to remind me of a band that does a string of amazing albums that are each moderate successes, but then they release an album that is still good but has a very different sound, but completely blows all previous albums out of the water in terms of sales. And then that album becomes their sound from now on.

[@nousername4416]

so BoTW is Zelda's equivalent of the Black Album by Metallica

[@misanatake7781]

I mean that how Zelda has been every time. Followed the ocarina of time game model until they found another avenue to tell their story

[@iggypop2026]

Botw beats skyward sword without even trying. That style got stale.

[@pennyblush98]

fucking nailed it

[@lnsflare1]

​@@iggypop2026I would argue that Skyward Sword had a better story, better side quests, better characters, better dungeons, and arguably better combat (depending on how much you prefer motion control shenanigans over physics engine shenanigans) than BotW. If it wasn't for the fact that it was so linear, the Sky Islands so barren, and OG Fi being so intrusive, it would have held up just fine alongside the prior 3D Zelda games.

[@wompus_king]

I think the echoes worked because I found a few I liked and THOSE felt like the dungeon items The Great Fairy made the game really fun, too. Some of those equippables REALLY felt like upgrades. The frog one? Changed the game.

[@DangerouslyStupidGamer]

I beat the game like a month ago, and reading this comment made me realize I completely forgot about the Great Fairy throughout the whole game. Lol

[@FDL_1401]

The frog accessory is the only one that actually feels like an upgrade, to the point that it's objectively better than every other accessory and one you will never unequip once you got it. Every other accessory is pretty situational, they definitely don't feel like a permanent upgrade

[@Iffondrel]

It feels like the Zelda team has always had a particular fondness for specifically ALttP and LA, and it's their attachment to those that have allowed 2D Zeldas to live. I really want something truly new, though. It doesn't have to be entirely unique or a return to form. But it'd be nice to have something take place in another kingdom again!

[@tinyetoile5503]

Yeah, LttP is clearly the devs' favourite, considering how often they return to the decline timeline. Heck, Link's "hero outfit" in BotW also clearly draws more from the "look" of the decline timeline than the usual "look" of the 3D adult Links. LttP gets a sequel/semi-remake 22 years later, while the other timelines haven't been touched with a ten foot pool since the aughts.

[@Hero_of_Storms]

Love that Aonuma is having a change of heart on the 2D Zelda series. He must have experienced the joys of the Jumbo Jack deal, a deal that if implemented with the correct coupon can get you 8 burgers for $10, and dramatically improved his overall mood and quality of life

[@Jdeadevil]

Omg I never thought about using the follow command on a spider echo to climb walls, I feel so stupid lol, I always just spammed boxes, trees and clouds.

[@dragon1130]

It's literally the first thing I did with spiders... and then I completely forgot about it afterwards.

[@cherubin7th]

I don't think the open endedness is the problem, but that you can just cheeze the puzzles too easily. Open ended puzzles can be tricky and interesting.

[@greykamasz656]

I agree. Open-opened puzzles are very tricky. In echoes, I know players can cheese many of the puzzles by using the water blocks to essentially skip the puzzle. The same thing happened in TOTK. It kinda defeats the purpose of the puzzle, which is a shame

[@ctpp64]

i think the issue is that nintendo wants to balance their games in a way where anyone can beat it, regardless of their approach. so they kinda have to create a bunch of potential solutions to puzzles, which inevitably leads to many puzzles that can just be solved the same way cuz certain solutions just have so much use. i think they just need to find that middle ground. allow for creative "outside the box" thinking in puzzles, but don't give the player a nearly infinitely sized toolbox like in Echoes

[@Days2Months]

The lack of story and easy combat doesn't work either.

[@jameslawrenson1208]

A middle ground should be established if anything.

[@Goremejy]

Also the fact that there were no significant rewards for exploring beyond heart pieces and ore. I stopped caring about chests hours into the game

[@Nick-eq1nh]

As someone currently fighting my fourth-ever bout with Covid, I am HERE for all the Arlo content this week!!!

[@Dewdrop0-6]

Get well soon!

[@platinum-or3y]

Fourth???

[@lulu_749]

I really liked Echoes of Wisdom, but I think a lot of my enjoyment stems from me not engaging 100% with every single gameplay possibility. I forgot about Reverse Bind immediately, didn’t realize you could use the spider to bypass the majority of the environmental obstacles and limited myself to a handful of echoes that weren’t overwhelmingly op (not on purpose, I just lost interest in trying out new echoes after my inventory was full of fifty thousand of them). I’m actually glad I did those things, since the limitations forced me to think creatively instead of taking the easiest solution. After a while, specifically after getting the water block, things do start to feel a little easy and stale, but for the most part the exerpience was neat and focused. I hope the Zelda team loses their aversion to limitations and realize that all the freedom isn’t always a good thing 😅

[@psychokinrazalon]

The bit about not being inspired to try new Echoes- Fair enough if it didn’t work, but that is something that should be encouraged.

[@FDL_1401]

Not only it didn't work, but for some people the UI is so bad that it actively discouraged them for trying new echoes. Nobody would argue that encouraging player experimentation is a bad thing, but the linear scrolling of TOTK and Echoes definitely isn't the way to go

[@Magic_Ice]

One thing I think people are ignoring are that yes, new people are buying switches, however not everyone who owns a switch is actively using it now. I’ve barely used my switch this year and have mostly been playing games through my computer and steam deck. So while the install base is growing, not all of those numbers are for people who are actively using their switches or are just waiting for the next system to come.

[@jclkaytwo]

plus, new people are more likely to buy the older (i.e. more popular) games than anything else. say you just got a switch; why buy echoes of wisdom when you've been missing out on mario kart, smash bros, and breath of the wild this whole time?

[@Tech_Marauder]

In my case at least, when the switch came out, I was in high school and had a lot more time to play games. I bought most of the major releases. I am now college graduate and have a lot less time, and so I have skipped many games that looked appealing to me. Now I only really pick up switch games that are supposedly absolutely amazing instead of simply great.

[@mrbraudichoei]

Yet you have time to watch topic arlo?

[@Tech_Marauder]

@ As background noise while doing work, or when taking a break, yes. What I do not often have time to do is play every new game as they come out. I have a backlog now despite rarely buying games.

[@vianabdullah2837]

The plan seems to have always been to have Grezzo take over 2D Zelda. Like how Mercury Steam took over 2D Metroid. Also Echoes of Wisdom does have item-based progression. Every object that you can turn into an echo is an item. You also mentioned that each game doesn't need to have a revolutionary new idea but then praised the wall-merging mechanic from A Link Between Worlds, that was their big idea for that game. Mario and Zelda games are primarily built upon new gameplay ideas that radically alters how players interact with the world. Like FLUDD from Sunshine or time travel in Oracle of Ages.

[@themris]

Echoes of Wisdom was a solid 7/10 for me. It was ok, but.... i miss the Oracle games, Minish Cap, and even Link between Worlds

[@Shrangus]

1:20 one thing that people don't usually look at is the economy, people buy more games when they have more to spend

[@Derekuko]

I loved BotW. But I feel this new structure got stale already with Totk. I really hope they keep optimizing top down Zeldas without losing their essence.

[@alecamp5369]

Nah. It hasn’t gotten stale. There is still so much more they can do.

[@EmilAhvenainen]

@@alecamp5369 i played hundreds of hours of botw, but could not for the life of me even complete the story of totk.

[@leontriestoart]

​@@EmilAhvenainenhundreds of hours of both 💪💪

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

Same I miss the dungeon item juice combo. The metroidvania if you will of Past Zelda's. And I feel like they never really Incorporated that part into the overworld all that well, there's a lot of room for improvement and I'm worried we'll never see it now

[@jme6036]

Wdym by the structure? There’s still tons of potential for open world zelda. We already know that the next one is going to have some big changes anyway, it’s not going to be botw 3 or anything.

[@PowderKegel]

I think you’re a tad harsh on Echoes but I understand. Zelda should focus on the traditional style and just enhance story beats and combat. Personally would like to see a 3D imagining of the final level in Zelda 1. Labyrinth maze like dungeons (not like BotW) would be incredible.

[@jarde1989]

How about… more Traditional Zelda Regardless of perspective… I don’t want every Zelda to be a BotW clone

[@psychokinrazalon]

Creativity doesn’t grow on trees. If the team doesn’t know what else they can do with traditional Zelda, then we shouldn’t encourage them to make the same carbon copy repeatedly.

[@theplinko9840]

@@psychokinrazalonIt’s not difficult to think of how to make a new traditional Zelda.

[@robbiekincaid5448]

Wow, Arlo and I see perfectly eye-to-eye on Zelda. I don't think any of the bigger names in the Nintendo space have really said they were disappointed in BOTW/TOTK. I was. I enjoyed those two a lot, but they're not ALTTP. Echoes of Wisdom was honestly a step in the right direction. True dungeons, good bosses, okay music, and a story that doesn't have me getting the details in memories. It's much better. I hope we continue to see Zelda blend classic and more modern Zelda game designs. Maybe we'll see some of the more classic 3D games *truly* remade (like Ocarina of Time) in a modern engine (but not like the Unreal crap you see all over KZbin). Thanks for the video, Arlo. I stand by you on this!

[@ctpp64]

random, but have you played Tunic? i dont even like 2D zelda that much, but i thought that game was incredible. nails that "puzzle box" appeal of 2D zelda perfectly imo, with some puzzle solutions that genuinely blew my mind

[@robbiekincaid5448]

@ctpp64 I haven't, actually. I've heard it's pretty darn good, but didn't realize it was so similar to Zelda. I'll definitely look into it. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@KevinAccetta]

I didn't even buy TotK cuz I just didn't like how open BotW's dungeons were. It just felt boring and with no progression. Not to mention the weapon system made me never wanna use stronger weapons that'd break quickly. I don't want open ended puzzles. I want a tighly designed Zelda game. And this doesn't make them linear. I would never call any of the 2D Zeldas linear, you still explored the world however you wanted to, but of course you needed the right items to keep moving forward, so eventually you'd realize "oh, I have to go to that dungeon first". That's called exploring.

[@chrislevack405]

Think of it like a pendulum. Hopefully it has reached its crux and will start swinging in a new direction.

[@sam_barris]

They should remake the Oracle games and then finish the trilogy.

[@thelastwindwaker7948]

I'm glad 2D Zelda is getting another chance to shine, but I hope they don't go ALL in on freedom like they've done with 3D Zelda. Sad that the sales are so low compared to the recent 3D games. I imagine with how much people love the new open world style of Zelda, going back to a more linear 3D game would result in similarly low sales.

[@jameslawrenson1208]

They should make the open world smaller but more interesting.

[@taffypool654]

3:10 If Nintendo wanted to encourage players to use different echoes, they really missed a good opportunity to just add in a quick-action button that randomly spawns one of your echoes, at least for offense. I know I would’ve used it, especially if it kept me active in the game rather than moving through a menu!

[@mrHowlll]

Wish there was more 3D OoT style Zelda coming.

[@PalaeoJoe]

Somehow, that is basically how I read the title! But alas, no.

[@Days2Months]

I wouldn't be surprised if a hybridization of both formulas is Nintendo's next goal for the series.

[@TaliesinMyrddin]

I agree, open-ended puzzles should be used sparingly, not be the main type of puzzle. When a puzzle has dozens of solutions it's not a puzzle anymore, it's an obstacle.

[@redheero656]

I'd love to see another game using a similar system and having Zelda as the main player character.

[@calvinbrinenestoris2357]

0:26 Only four days, actually. EoW released on September 26th and the report accounted for up to the 30th. Considering how Switch games don't really have legs anymore, I doubt that means it's going to sell a crap ton, I'm guessing this is still the majority of EoW's total sales. I'm guessing we're gonna get like 4 million total? Maybe a little less?

[@Zenithal1843]

EoW connected with me more than BoTW so I don’t mind this.

[@TheRagnarok428]

True for me too, at least when comparing EoW to TotK. TotK was just too big, and too much engineer simulator. Echoes at least was small enough that I could dip into the new system and really feel like I'm learning it, instead of just getting overwhelmed with the possibilities in TotK

[@lukethephantomthief]

Yes, don’t let the classic style of Zelda die Anouma. Just cause these games aren’t as big and open as BOTW/TOTK doesn’t mean they don’t have value.

[@Aether_Athea]

If there is more original new top down Zeldas in the future that pleases me. Despite any fault this game might have, the echo mechanic is so fun to me that this game is amongst my favorite Zelda games I’ve played, about 15-17 hours in

[@EternityKingdomsHeadHoncho]

Of course, Arlo posts this a day after I finally clear A Link Between Worlds (my first Zelda game). Absolutely wonderful game and what they did with Ravio was a clever reference back to Link to the Past.

[@Snowstorm...]

10:05 I was worried about this when the first Ultrahand trailer released and I've been talking about it since. It really sucks seeing people slowly coming to the same conclusion. Also, I swear with every new interview it sounds like Aonuma is losing faith in the Zelda series more and more. First he didn't understand why people liked the linear 3D Zelda games, then he thought 2D Zelda had no place in the series anymore... While I'm happy he's starting to get his head back in the game, it doesnt exactly inspire confidence that the face of the Zelda series was thinking all of this in the first place

[@PalaeoJoe]

I agree. But the thing is with creative people like that, is they are their own biggest critics. They often think their earlier work is trash. I was just watching a video yesterday that listed the very few Beatles songs that John Lennon liked.

[@Snowstorm...]

@PalaeoJoe I know that feeling all too well

[@HunterGoodin]

It’s funny that this topic is coming out when I’m in the middle of playing A Link to the Past. Man… that game still kicks ass. Made me hungry for more “modern” too down Zelda aside from Link’s Awakening DX and A Link Between Worlds.

[@Missiletainn]

I really enjoyed Echoes of Wisdom, but the echoes really did become less and less relevant the more you got, because you got the one set of specific ones you used for everything and that was it, the UI was awful but i think the actual worst part was the lock on camera, because it was so inconsistent and would never lock on to what i wanted it to. EoW gets an 8 from me, most of that comes from the story and being able to play as zelda, i think I would prefer a more traditional 2D zelda game starring zelda where she just gets spells like link gets items.

[@Gamer1288]

Honestly, I'd be satisfied if the next 2D Remake is a Combined Oracle Remake. If they wanted a add more content for Farore than I'd be fine with that as well.

[@matthewmuir8884]

This is really good news. I wonder if the top-down Zelda games will go back to having Link as the protagonist or continue to have Zelda as the protagonist. I suppose it will all depend on what core gameplay mechanic they come up with next; personally, I hope to see the return of something like Spirit Tracks, where the player controls both Link and Zelda.

[@Droboto23456]

As someone who doesn’t like botw and totk, it was nice having a game with all of these solutions to the puzzles without being too open-ended. However, I don’t think a system like this is something that needs to be part of the Zelda formula. If they do in fact keep making 2d Zelda games, then they definitely should go back to dungeon items.

[@OliviaWestmorland]

Echoes of Wisdom is the second Zelda game I’ve ever beaten! (the first being BOTW) and I LOVED IT!

[@lonecom685]

I really liked Echos of Wisdom, even though they have things to improve. The development team is very talented. I just hope they keep trying new things. The old formula was really stale for me. But not every game need to be like Echos of Wisdom. They can try new ways to hive freedom, like in A Link Between Worlds

[@AppleJackSix]

Part of it might be, this game is basically the same price as TotK and BotW, which are way bigger and generally more impressive, and they are the same franchise on the same system.

[@iggypop2026]

I suspect the new 3D Zelda game will be about building your own ships and sailing the seas. Also under water exploration. Wind waker on steroids. Where else can they take that botw formula to feel fresh? They've already done sky, land and caves.

[@Novarcharesk]

And god willing more vigorous lore connections are implemented :P I'm not demanding massive story, as they've recently said that's not the Zelda process, but connected narrative and lore would be so much better. Echoes of Wisdom expanding the very cosmology of the universe was such a sweet surprise.

[@lnsflare1]

Honestly, I think that Nintendo just has some sort of grudge against the TP and SS UI designers, considering that they keep using ribbon menus in games that focus on quickswapping between tools/abilities despite having learned that a snappy quickswap ring works perfectly for that in those two games. Like, I'm pretty sure that putting the hand powers on a quickswap ring in TotK while leaving everything else on ribbon menues was specifically to give a middle finger to people (read: me) who had been begging to put everything on quickswap rings during BotW's era, to show that they could, but we're specifically costing not to. Especially with how they put the map on one of those permanent quickswap ring slots, even though you can usually access it with one button press most of the time.

[@Purpylon]

I really want more "2D" games, but i hope they make them feel worth more, or drop the price. Games like Advance Wars, 2D Zelda, Let's Go, Mario vs DK and more have that "plastic toy" feel which is nice but not amazing. I've said it before and i say it again. Put BotW and LttP side by side, or NSMBU Deluxe and Odyssey. Or Let's Go and Scarlet/Violet. Same price.

[@sonicwave779]

The immediate backpedal at 10:34 was hilarious, I don't know if it was intentional or not.

[@quintonconoly]

He said enjoy them that much anymore and then enjoy to a degree, it makes sense

[@Chillaxorita]

I think the whole open-ended puzzle thing is an instance of right motivations, wrong conclusion. It's good to motivate players to try out a lot of things to solve puzzles and reward them for their creativity, but they took it way too far in the recent Zelda games by designing puzzles with NO prescribed solutions and just giving the players a bunch of generic tools to handle any situation. I think the happy medium is when you have puzzles that you can approach from multiple angles, but each possible solution makes sense and was intentionally designed to reward the player for thinking to approach the problem in that specific way. I always come back to this example, but no matter how much people shit on Skyward Sword because they're mad about motion controls, Skyward Sword ultimately got it right when it comes to creative problem solving. The Imprisoned fights are really tedious if you turn off your brain and attack the toes like you THINK they want you to do, but like a lot of the boss fights (and combat in general) they reward you for thinking outside of the box and jumping on top of the Imprisoned's head from above. You can do the fights WAY faster doing them like Shadow of the Colossus, and it's way more fun, but you have to get out of the old Zelda mindset of 1 boss 1 solution.

[@Cameo221]

I think a factor that's contributing to releases getting less sales later in a console generation is because there's more options to choose from

[@tbnwontpop8857]

hopefully we won't have to wait 11 more years for the next one, either :') (No, I do not count Triforce Heroes.)

[@alliesangalli1757]

I just hope Grezzo can keep making original Zelda titles. Even if EoW isn't everyone's thing, it clearly proved that these devs have talent and passion to do more than remakes.

[@ultimatebreak827]

1:00 especially with Backwards compatibility confirmed

[@Applemangh]

I've really enjoyed the last three Zeldas, and I love how Echoes tried to find a balance between the linear sensibilities of the "classics" and the open world design of BotW. But the very basic concepts of LoZ and ALttP still haven't been fully explored. They have SOME item progressive gating without railroading you into a single specific experience, and you spend your time almost exclusively exploring without having to trigger specific plot points by talking to the right NPCs in the right order. It's nice not having every single dungeon tied to the social problems of a specific community and having to learn all about the problem before you can just... GO!

[@ShiftyQuail]

You have mentioned a few times about how the open air games make you miss the linear item-based games. Skyward Sword was the last one to fully commit to that style and it felt like the devs had scraped the formula to the bottom of the barrel. This necessitated making BotW a radical departure of what had come before. And gamers seem to like the change. BotW is the best selling entry in the series and TotK is the second best selling entry in the series. Twilight Princess is a distant 3rd. So, if they go back to the item-based style how do they make it feel fresh? Nintendo expects Zelda to sell, it won't get the privilege of being a hardcore niche title like Metroid or Xenoblade so this new title needs to have something that draws players in. I would love to see you make a case for it.

[@theplinko9840]

They didn’t even come close to “scraping the bottom of the barrel” with Skyward Sword. If anything it was one of the freshest takes on the classic formula in the entire series. There’s plenty of stuff they could’ve done. People will buy Zelda regardless. BotW was the only noteworthy launch title for what is about to be the best selling console of all time (and unlike Twilight Princess it didn’t release on a console that was deeply unpopular with the hardcore audience the game is targeting). Heck, BotW has a lower attachment rate than OoT, despite releasing on a console that is known for massive attachment rates.

[@FGTRTD24]

Zelda has been a household name for many years. When there’s a new Zelda game, people will always pay attention to it. A big reason people want traditional items again is because BOTW and TOTK had nothing to look forward to power wise after you get your abilities in the starting area….The world suffered for it since it revolved around several abilities with no opportunity to grow. Puzzles revolved around certain items and how to apply them to said puzzle. With TOTK you can just cheese puzzles with your abilities and there was zero to no “ahh hah” moments because of it.

[@CloudStrife-FF7]

You’re awesome papa Arlo

[@mRidley508]

Speaking of people buying less games near the end of the switch, I think a big contributing factor is how much prices for things have risen so people are being very picky about the games they buy. I can see this being a big issue for the switch 2.

[@Days2Months]

Yep. Tariffs are really going to hurt Nintendo's business model in future. And it won't just impact the Switch and their games, but their theme parks and upcoming movie projects as well.

[@Lucasloureiro2006]

These sales only took in consideration the last few days of the month it released. Something like 5 days. So EoW had an amazing start

[@RyluRocky]

I agree with open ended solution problem with Tears of The Kingdom but NOT Echoes of Wisdom, because unlike TOTK you couldn’t just do whatever and things would work out with no effort, in Echoes you still have to come with a decently thought out solution. Echoes open ended puzzles still had lots of wrong paths you could take to solve something whereas TOTK anything and everything no matter how hard or easy could solve the problem.

[@Gamer1288]

Maybe the next time you can Transform INTO the monsters.

[@casualslinky2546]

I feel like a reason that switch games aren’t selling as well is that it’s pretty equal to the number of switches sold in a year. Like as time goes on the switch sell less so the people looking to get new games decrease. People out grow a system and more people are waiting for the new system to come out as well which adds to less software being sold

[@DJWoozie]

I can't stand the way they think they have to reinvent the wheel with each release. they leave so many experiences on the table by being stubborn

[@PalaeoJoe]

I agree. Another issue is that when they focus on doing something brand new, they neglect to Perfect ideas from earlier games. Twilight Princess is a good example of this, it is Not a perfect game. But it does so many things so well that many fans of the old style continue to praise it for "Perfecting Classic Zelda".

[@misanatake7781]

I mean its a series that has been going on for 20+ years from time to time they are allowed to try something different and new . Some of their best games have come from innovative gameplay and ideas

[@ctpp64]

yeah nintendo does this way too much, even outside of zelda. f-zero and star fox have been dead for so long cuz nintendo thinks they need some crazy new idea. when really, people would be happy with a standard sequel as long as it's good. heck, even look at 3D mario. we easily could've gotten an odyssey sequel that refined on its many ideas that weren't fully fleshed out (smth like galaxy 2). but nah, nintendo wants to save 3D mario as a launch title. so the next game will inevitably be smth completely different from odyssey

[@FGTRTD24]

I can at least give them respect for it, but yeah I agree. I’d rather them tighten everything down and make the best game they can, even if they reuse ideas. Majora’s Mask is the perfect example. That game perfected every mechanic that was introduced in Ocarina of Time and from a technical standpoint, I think it’s the better game of the two.

[@DJWoozie]

@@PalaeoJoe This exactly! They present great ideas that often should have two or three iterations before they're "perfect." Imagine the level of polish from a seasoned project.

[@TheLetsGamer7]

I understand Aonuma's perspective on making players scroll through echoes to find one that works. You never know when you'll pass one in the list that could be just the thing you're looking for - if you're willing to experiment, that is. If not, then you probably WILL feel like scrolling through the list is a waste of time like Arlo does, and you might only use a small handful of echoes throughout the entire game instead of making good use of as many echoes as possible - making the game feel more repetitive than it needs to be.

[@DJWoozie]

Nintendo irks me with how they want to present new ideas, but don't have faith enough in their name alone to make a new IP, new experience. Breath of the Wild could have been a title to a new IP by itself, new characters, new stakes. Using the early film industry as an reference, big directors wouldn't be the same if they had to use their best movies as a prop for their new projects...

[@star-rock6466]

Well, I doubt using the old formula everutime is all that good either. Frankly, as long as the games are good, eh

[@mr.awesome6011]

It took the series back to its more seamlessly open-ended roots while expanding on the concept and adding a bunch of new ideas. It's progress and is necessary for older IP's to maintain relevancy.

[@alecamp5369]

@@DJWoozie That doesn’t make sense. It is obvious that BOTW was the Zelda game that the developers had wanted to make for a long time but couldn’t due to technological constraints.

[@ColossalM]

I just don't think this is true. Splatoon, Arms, and Pikmin could've just been Mario Paintball with FLUDDs, a new Punchout, and Mario 128 respectively if they really felt like it. They just thought the mechanics of those games were unique enough to warrant a new world to surround them with. The only example I can think of Nintendo actually pulling something like this is Starfox Adventures. But Breath of the Wild- the core of its gameplay is third-person action adventure with a swordsman exploring a huge fantasy world and solving puzzles, and that just screams Zelda no matter how you frame it. Even games that aren't made by Nintendo that have a formula similar to that inevitably get compared to Zelda.

[@DJWoozie]

ITT: people reacting to my example instead of the point being made.

[@DC_Prox]

FWIW, I absolutely did find myself trying out certain echoes partly because of seeing them while scrolling through my options. I'm not saying that it was the right decision, I'm just saying that they also weren't 100% wrong.

[@sectorcodec]

Here’s why as the install base grows sales don’t grow. 90% of people I know who own a switch bought it for a few specific games and it is now collecting dust in their living room. In the Nintendo bubble people think everyone with a switch plays it regularly but that is far from true

[@Stephen-Fox]

Arlo, I say this without a hint of sarcasm - It sounds like you know exactly what you want from top down Zelda, why not see if you can actualize your vision in your own top down action-adventure game? I don't mean this as a "Don't criticize if you don't make" thing, I mean this as a "Spite can be a good motivator for creativity." - The Sapling seems to exist out of Frustration that EA didn't do Spore correctly, Super Dungeon Maker seems to exist because Nintendo won't make a Zelda Maker, and so forth. Obviously it wouldn't be easy, but... You might enjoy the process.

[@matthewmuir8884]

There have been a few top-down Zelda-like games: Ocean's Heart and Blossom Tales being two examples, and I'm currently making one in my spare time (though it's really more of a celebration of multiple old top-down games and it's far from finished); I think it would be neat to see more top-down Zelda-like games.

[@Aether_Athea]

While my college semester is still going, I’ve had more time and energy to just put towards this game to continue it, I love this game sm, still good to hear that it got that many sales at least! And yeah I agree that the form of using echos via scrolling isn’t great feeling, regardless of the gameplay design intent

[@2001Crews]

I really wish I could look at that quote with optimism, but when you recall the context of everything he's said the last few years, I believe he one BILLION percent took the wrong message and is still pushing ahead with this open ended design. I would just so infinitely rather he pour this energy into a new ip rather than dragging Zelda into it and insisting it's the same so we don't ever have to look back ever. I hate to say it but I really don't trust Aonuma with Zelda anymore, as long as he's making the main decisions I have no faith in the result going forward.

[@intersexcryptid]

Same, honestly.

[@LARAUJO_0]

I agree with your sentiment but disagree with your message

[@2001Crews]

@@LARAUJO_0 How so?(Genuine question, I swear)

[@timwoods2852]

I have 3 "major" critiques and one legitimate one about the game. 1.) Obviously, the Doom Scrolling, but more importantly, the sinful glut of Echos we got. Useless crap like the animal statues, two types of little rocks, and monsters that should have just upgraded in most cases instead of being their own separate Echos. 2.) Daronbe or whatever the robot making guy's name is. I met him once, halfway through the game. Never found his house, and forgot he existed. I hear his robots are a bunch of long fetch quests anyway. Why not put some generic parts (nut and bolt, gear, and crank handle) in chests instead of countless smoothie ingredients? Then, have each bot reqire showing him the Echo of the monster it's based on and cost a certain amount of each component. 3.) Lack of reason to explore and travel: I beat the game having two or three unexplored areas of the map. There are only so many Rupies and smoothie ingredients you can find before they feel redundant. Weren't there supposed to be cool outfits you could get? Where? I specifically back tracked to Gerudo Town in hopes of getting that outfit. Got the silky PJs, but couldn't find the Gerudo outfit anywhere. Heck, I wouldn't have the cat outfit if I didn't ask on the internet how to get the imoveable cat to leave the front of the windmill. For a game that's supposed to have open-ended puzzles, that was a very specific thing I needed once and never again. I had never been to the seaside village because there was no incentive to go. 4.) A real gripe. The game is way too short! A lot of the above problems could be solved if there was more time to explore, more plot points around the map, more unique collectables to use in the game, and more reasons to backtrack the game would have felt much better paced.

[@Aether_Athea]

Yeah I definitely get not wanting a large amount of answers to the problems presented in games, while this game is really fun to me, I definitely don’t think they need to make severely unique gameplay changes all the time to the gameplay flow

[@sofaris576]

Is that you playing on that gameplay? One tipp: Use bind more in combat. Stopping enemies from dodging and attacking, pulling them closer to my Echos, pushing them of a clif, pulling them in a watercupe so they are drowning, bind is a bread and butter tool of combat in this game. You could say Echos are the bread and bind is the butter. Bind is also very useful in most boss fights.

[@HeroOfLight13]

I THINK…that you’re wrong, those things you don’t like ARE good, and…I think you’re worrying too much. And that’s all. 🙂

[@FGTRTD24]

Top down Zelda games just offer such a different experience. I’m all for getting a TP or WW port, that’s a dead horse at this point. But the older I’ve gotten, the less time I have to play video games. The top down games offer a shorter, more consistent experience. A game to beat in a couple of sittings and you feel like you get the whole experience. There’s definitely a place for top down Zelda games and all around smaller projects that Nintendo can offer. At least with the Zelda series, I wish Nintendo was more consistent with releases. Not every Zelda game needs to be this massive game or in Skyward Sword’s case, a long game for no reason. It makes sense financially to have smaller projects that cost less to create that will return a pretty darn good profit. Development time costs an insanely large amount of money and as someone that’s a lifelong Zelda fan, I’m worried about the future of the series. Having the top down games is something that can at least take hold of the series and is there for more traditional fans such as myself.

[@EingefrorenesEisen]

Tbh, I think all echoes need (Zelda games with echo mechanics can be Zelda's "thing") is faster attack animations and not-shitty menus. I agree though, open-ended puzzles kinda suck. But I think Echoes did it WAY better than Tears.

[@LukeDukeShoot]

You fool, you wonderful man and fool! You could have called the video "O Glorious Day, It Sounds Like More Top-Down Zelda Is On It's Way!"

[@ecaekes9678]

I still love the old style. I am a bit older and played the NES Zelda in its time. I only got back into Nintendo when my nephew got breath of the wild one Christmas. I love the open idea of tackling a problem many different ways. It’s just old to get a bow and now I just need to hit the eyes in a dungeon. It’s old and boring.

[@Spirrwell]

I enjoyed Echoes of Wisdom for what it was. There was nothing spectacular about it. The one thing I remember most was towards the end of my playthrough, I had my energy full and I bought a bunch of smoothies that would refill energy. I just walked across the entire map in swordfighter form chugging smoothies. But, that's not what I should remember the game for. lol Like I don't even remember, were there accessories to reduce energy consumption? Or was that just for the particles? If I can't remember that much, then the game didn't make much of an impact on me. It passed the time though.

[@aerrae5608]

I want Oracle remakes AND the third oracle game that never happened.

[@MxMothra]

Yeahs I’m saving my money for the next console tbh

[@Gabbycatty]

sales numbers may also be effected by how no one can afford anything anymore, so if it's not a big mainline game or anything, i think a lot of people are just gonna pass and save on that $80 for food or anything else :/

[@ZeldaFan2004]

For me, Echoes of Wisdom was great because of the story and because we got to play as Zelda as the protagonist. The echo system was interesting I suppose. But, I'm not one of those TotK players that really tinkered around with the Zonai devices much. I had my builds I used for specific problems or purposes and that was it. Sure, watching the videos of the crazy things people did with the zonai device building was cool but I am not interested in doing that all on my own. I still stand by the idea that Nintendo already has a perfect way to make Zelda feel unique as a character compared to Link. Let her swap between Zelda and Sheik. Sheik excels in stealth, information gathering and physical combat while Zelda excels in solving puzzles, social encounters, and magical combat.

[@mellow8176]

i hope people can be a little nicer to fans who dont like open ended puzzles and the freedom paradigm now that even big popular youtubers are normalizing it... we arent all nostalgic and mean, its just taste

[@misanatake7781]

I think it’s the opposite, traditional fans are some of the worst people to interact with. Arlo even in this video comes off the same. The formula of older IPs change all the time but Zelda fans simply can’t accept it for whatever reason when everyone else points otherwise

[@johnvanjohn825]

Agreed. Its annoying to see people act like nuisances every time someone expresses their opinion that old zelda is better. I often hear them talking about open-world zelda as if its an objective improvement, when its really not. Both styles haves their pros and cons, its just awful for what is essentially a different type of game to completely subsume the older one. The open world games and traditional zelda can coexist; Metroid didnt abandon 2d after Prime came around.

[@ColossalM]

@@misanatake7781 Mario Kart and Pokemon have barely changed their core formula for their entire existence and are some of the highest selling Nintendo games. I'm not saying that change is inherently bad (especially since the examples I gave have their own issues with staleness). Just pointing out that it's not inevitable, and it's perfectly valid for people to not necessarily like it. You can also look at Mario Party- they did try changing the core formula, but everybody hated it and they went back to the original style

[@misanatake7781]

@ I mean Pokemon fans are screaming for change every waking moment of their lives for the past decade now. Mario has seen a lot of innovation, arlo just did a video on it with Mario wonder. I think there has to be an avenue for innovation and new ideas in an older IP. Not saying you can’t feel a way about it, it’s just annoying and reductive to not admit the previous formula was on a severe decline and something had to change

[@ColossalM]

@@misanatake7781 I said Mario Kart and Mario Party, not Mario. Also, I just disagree that the previous formula was on a "severe decline." Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess are just two games released in a single console cycle, and they had plenty of problems that aren't related to sticking to the original formula (and a lot of people love TP!) There are plenty of game series that come back from ruts like that without drastically changing their gameplay.

[@TheHelderVinicius]

Its no wrong i prefer this style of selecting echoes

[@oliverraven]

They could make more Zeldas like ALTTP, Link's Awakening, Oracle of Ages/Seasons, Minish Cap, A Link Between Worlds and Echoes of Wisdom, or more non-top-down Zeldas like Adventure of Link, Wand of Gamelon, Zelda's Adventure and Link's Crossbow Training? Hmm, tough choice...

[@GamingGoose-jr8qm]

I think that they should continue the open ended puzzles not because I like them (I do) but because of how much people gushed over the fact you could do anything in botw and now because of botw and other open worlds they think that every game need to be open ended and that any linearity is a sin. This comment was just an excuse to talk about how I feel like botw spoiled people because I feel like every time I watch peoples reactions to new game reveals at least one will say "open world Kirby/Pokemon/Mario game" I like botw but I also somewhat prefer linearity in games or like the ign review for Mario and Luigi they say it's too linear but a lot of rpgs are like that.

[@ryandemboski6313]

My only request is you give it a distinct art/graphical style and traditional combat, and make it its own game 😢 not a remake

[@beastslayer8729]

I don't think I'll be that interested if it's super open like EoW was. It was cool but it only made me miss traditional 2D Zelda puzzles even more.

[@RikThunder33]

Aonuma seems like a very old child to me "oh yeah we thought we exhausted all the possibilities with the 2D Zelda games. I guess not!" Brother, what? ...You've been a game dev fro how long. You don't always have to re-invent the wheel and make the greatest game of all time compulsively. Or is that the standard they set for themselves now. To me it doesn't sound like the rediscovering of an old formula, to me this read like "You know, we could add a lot more unnecessary gimmicks and features to it than I originally thought!" I hope I'm wrong.

[@TheMoonestOne]

The video kinda ended out of nowhere, or is it just me? But anyways, I don't have any history playing 2D zelda, and I personally think Zelda EOW is one of the best (if not THE best) singleplayer experience I had on Nintendo Switch. It reminded me of the simplicity of indie games like A Short Hike (that I LOVE), but with the openness of TOTK. I tried playing the first Zelda and Link's Awakening on NSO, but they really didn't hook me, and the main problem was really "oh, so I have to guess what the devs were thinking when designing this, instead of actually trying to solve a problem/puzzle?". Personally, I'd love if more games like EOW come, and they could do things like, by the end of EOW there is a "singleplayer coop experience" with Zelda and Link. Why not make a full coop game like that, with optional singleplayer mode? There is so much they could do, honestly and I'm looking forward to it.

[@darkjaden-fe]

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, but I'm so sick of the open-ended puzzles. Whenever I solve a puzzle in a way that is clearly not how the developers intended, I don't feel like I outsmarted the developers, I feel like I cheated. It was fun for Breath of the Wild. It was a fresh new take and I enjoyed it. But it just doesn't work for me long-term. I crave the structure and tight design of older Zelda games.

[@theadmiral4625]

I truly hope for all our sakes that Echoes becomes the backbone for a genuine Zelda Dungeon Maker like Mario Maker 🙏🙏🙏💪🤣💪

[@SliderGamer55]

I think its kinda dumb that there should be any doubt about this. But at the same time, there was a decade gap between NSMB games and Wonder and top down Zelda between this and ALBW were multiplayer game, remake, indie developed rhythm game, so fair enough. Not to mention Mario Kart 9's eternal absence, things just...don't happen sometimes.

[@mr.awesome6011]

Well, Mario Kart 9 is guaranteed a Switch 2 title.

[@PalaeoJoe]

Mario Kart 9 was likely a moble game. The next console game may be called Mario Kart 10

[@robertanderson2424]

he said like one offhand sentence. you should not get your hopes up all the time you will get hurt. dont you know nintendo? they never make sense

[@zekeram129]

Have yet to pick up EoW, TotK utterly murdered my faith in the franchise. I don't know if I'll be interested in any titles until writing makes some serious improvements. Is there anyone who can attest to EoW having, at the barest minimum, a clear-cut position in continuity?

[@thecapricornmoons]

2ds are fine as long as they're not a priority...

[@ScubaLuigi]

I got tired of the echoes gameplay pretty quick, I didn't even make it to the water block that everyone talks about before I moved on.

[@bennycaustic5102]

Once they stop adding that annoying depth of field and can get the game running at 60 is the day I stop dumping and modding it out.

[@lordofthe6string]

I normally agree with your takes, but I really don't get 'the echo mechanic didn't prove itself'. Echoes has been the best Zelda in a loooong time, and people not really liking it is baffling to me.

[@dane_with_swag]

So they want new ideas? Well, giving Link a voice is a HUGE idea and sufficient! 😑

[@Days2Months]

IMO it's already pretty clear that Nintendo wants to move away from a mute Link. BoTW got rid of the naming connections for starters. I think Nintendo's just terrified of pulling another Other M for their western consumers. That or they're waiting for the live-action movie to convert diehard purists into accepting a talking Link.

[@OurHeroXero]

Butternut Squash? Yes Please!

[@Yosh-00]

I'm okay with another top-down Zelda. I do, however, do NOT want another Echoes of Wisdom. The echo and combat systems were far too frustrating for me. I didn't even finish EoW because I was too frustrated with it. Which is disappointing for Zelda's first solo adventure. I really wanted to like it. I really did. If another Echoes game comes out, I will not buy it, which is a shame since I've bought all the previous Zelda games that came out in the past 20 years