Obsession or Love? Unravelling the Enigma of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn's Relationship

[@dalestaley5637]

Henry loved the chase, it was chivalric. I don't think Henry loved anyone but himself. As you said, he was in lust. I don't think he loved any of his wives.

[@ByrRaven]

I agree. I think that today Henry would have been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. But like you said, we all have our opinions.

[@annhenderson5632]

I agree. He wanted Anne and when he got her, he didn't want her any more. He would lash out at people rather like a very spoilt child. Unfortunately his lasting out caused a lot of deaths.

[@onemercilessming1342]

"At your age, the heyday in the blood is tamed; it waits upon the judgement." "Hamlet" to "Gertrude", his mother. "Hamlet"--William Shakespeare. Well, not in Henry's case.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I think he saw himself as a knight in shining armour with Catherine too, saving her from an uncertain future.

[@CraigFox-lt6lt]

Henry was a hunter!! You are respectfully spot on with "the chase."

[@michelleshephard9690]

At the end of the day Henry was The King. The pressure of being pursued must have been immense for Anne..

[@thehistory_student]

Definitely. She must have felt hounded and harassed in those early days, the fact that she escaped from Court to her home at Hever Castle seems to suggest as much.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes.

[@tygressblade]

I think Henry loved the idea of Anne. Just like he loved the idea of women while in their place.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes!

[@ardenalexa94]

Yep, If you no longer lived up to his standards, he could throw you aside very easily. I feel bad for all his wives. None of them really had a chance of being happy with him.

[@clarebirschel6951]

​@anneboleynfiles I think Henry loved the idea of being in love and, when things went wrong, he had a tantrum abd declared "I am the king!" and basically did what he wanted when he tired of someone... that went for his courtiers, as well (watching Wolf Hall atm). It was Henry who was the bad un, I feel for Anne 😢

[@foryoutube3567]

I can't see obsession/lust lasting ten years of constant stress and danger. And I've heard it said that the opposite of love isn't hate, but indifference. Henry was never indifferent toward Anne.

[@Phyllida-r7n]

How do YOU know? So tired of you self-proclaimed experts.

[@SafetySpooon]

@@Phyllida-r7n And what makes YOU an expert? SO sick of hypocrites!!!

[@FavoriteThemeSong]

I think he was pretty indifferent to her when he was spending time with the ladies on the river at night.

[@foryoutube3567]

@@Phyllida-r7n No one knows. We all look at things that happened 500 years ago through a glass, darkly. We were asked our opinions. That was mine. What's yours?

[@anneboleynfiles]

I don't think it did last ten years. When he finally had Anne as his wife and then God didn't bless the marriage with a son, things quickly soured.

[@vindictivetiger]

In his mind, I'm sure he felt he loved her. I mean, how does one define love to someone who would boil you in oil? Love to him was meeting his will. When people failed him, he culled them & he did it easily. I mean, it's just the truth of what's been written. As for Anne, I will always believe that she was trying to stay out of his clutches. Tossing out "queen or nothing" at Henry to dissuade him, I'm sure she never thought he'd go through with it, but he did. We tend to forget she was a subject under WAYYY more subjugation than is experienced today. Lese Majiste was a punishable offense, so telling Henry "no" & maintaining that distance, realistically wasn't an option, especially with her family's position at court. She had to submit, but in a way where she wasn't left out in the cold with no means to support herself. I'm sure the numbers of women ruined by men at court are legion...

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I do agree that he thought he loved her.

[@theresalaux5655]

I agree with you Claire. He was in lust with her but not love ❤😊

[@cherrytraveller5915]

Henry was in love with the idea of being in love. He was raised on stories of his grandparents how the meet at the side of the road and how he saved her and made him his Queen. He heard all about his grandfather great battles and how much he loved his wife. He was a romantic who loved the idea of love but didn’t like the reality when the initial infatuation ended and the relationship became ordinary. Through his life he constantly displayed this desperate need to be loved by doing things like dressing up and pretending to be someone else. Not to mention all those wars he went to which showed his desperation to recreate those childhood stories and make them his own. Henry was emotionally stunted probably due to his mother dying while he was young

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, he certainly saw himself as another Edward IV or a heroic Henry V, and loved chivalric romances. It's like when he met Anne of Cleves and she didn't see through his disguise and swoon at his feet.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

There was definitely an element of lust and obsession. Anne played hard to get unlike her predecessors. It was like a challenge for Henry. A chase. Like Anne made him work for it. Anne didn't want Henry at first and tried to avoid him and put him off which had the reverse affect and made him want her all the more. I'm sure that was a bit of fun and intrigue for Henry. A turn on. Also Anne wasn't your typical English Rose. She was educated, worldly, witty, talented and fashionable. She stood out.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think people naturally love the thrill of the chase and those first months of being in a relationship.

[@carolynnr.6409]

He loved her like he loved the Catholic Church: until he did not get what he wanted.

[@Jess-bee]

Exactly

[@cplmpcocptcl6306]

Spot on. Same as he loved his Daughter. Pretty sure he would have followed thru with his threat to kill her if she didn’t agree with his lies.

[@alancumming6407]

I have often thought Henry's lengthy quest to marry Anne was driven initially by lust, but ultimately by his fury at not getting his own way. The idea that any person or institution could oppose the King's will would surely prove an intolerable situation for a monarch accustomed to getting his own way. Henry's pride would not allow him to admit defeat, hence the 'Great Matter' dragged on. During this period of time, both he and Anne worked together towards a shared goal, however once that goal was achieved, his relationship with Anne changed - perhaps to a more mundane, less stimulating one. As for love, with the exception of his Mother, I am uncertain if Henry was capable of such an emotion. Many thanks for this interesting broadcast. - Elizabeth Cumming

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you, Elizabeth! Yes, he had so much pride, and I do think that what had attracted him to Anne became tiresome later.

[@nancybradford8514]

I agree with you Claire, you couldn't kill someone you love, but obsession is another matter. Gareth Russell also talks about Henry being obsessed 😊

[@anneboleynfiles]

To me, love is enduring.

[@richardpearce1114]

She said no thank you, probably the first time he ever heard the word no..... and that led to 7 years of ardent pursuit. And then when he got her, it turned out she had a mind of her own, and she was more than capable of standing up to him. In that extraordinary trial it was revealed that she didn't think he was that hot in the sack. She was too much for him. She didn't give him a son but she did give him our greatest monarch .... instead.

[@MADDOGOH1]

Very well said.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think a lot of people see "no" as a challenge.

[@ardenalexa94]

@@anneboleynfilesunfortunately, I agree.

[@kimsz111]

@@anneboleynfiles how could anyone be this stupid? no means no unless it's sarcasm.

[@JaneEasterbrook-bn3ux]

You have hit the nail on the head, Claire!

[@LusiaEyre]

I don't think Henry ever loved anyone in that true, pure, unadulterated way, except maybe his mother when he was a boy. He loved love and the expressions of it (Henry would've loved Valentines Day, I think), and fairytale versions of it. But, I believe he was narcissistic, and his love/affection/favour was as fickle as his moods, and that's how he was able to switch it off seemingly at a moments notice. His natural impulses were not helped by being raised amongst adoring ladies, got him used to being the centre of attention, even as the 2nd son. Henry was fascinated by Anne, and the defiance and chase, and being denied her by the world sustained his attention, and I believe he believed himself in love with her. Until there was no son at the end of the tunnel, and her qualities that made her an exciting love interest started to grate on him in a wife. So he lost interest, like one sometimes does mid-deep clean.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, perhaps the only people he truly loved were his mother and himself. I'm not sure that anyone could live up to the perfect wife and queen for him.

[@riverrun88]

I agree with you about this being an obsession and not love. Once he "caught" Anne, he was let down by her not having the male heir she promised and downhill the relationship went. He wanted Anne to be his ideal wife but that was not Anne and the relationship began to falter then disintegrated with each disappointment of failed pregnancies. The pressure on Anne must have been just enormous and over time you can see the toll it had taken on her. It could be the very reason she was having trouble carrying any further pregnancies to term.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I think he was convinced that this marriage would be "right" and that God would bless it with a male heir. Then, when that didn't happen, there could only be one person to blame, and it wasn't him.

[@daughteroftime8047]

THANK YOU!!! I get so sick of people who present their relationship like its some tragic love story.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes! We can disagree, but I find it hard sometimes when people depict their relationship as the greatest love story of history.

[@lindawhitehead6149]

I appreciate your ideas. I don't think he really loved anyone but he definitely wanted what he wanted. Look how he was willing to kill Cromwel who had been his right hand man for years...He was really an egomaniacal monster.

[@anneboleynfiles]

And Thomas More too, who must have been like a father figure to him.

[@jehannedarc1429]

Yes he was an egomaniacal monster, capable of loving only himself. You summed it up well!

[@GrumpyMeow-Meow]

The real question is, was Henry VIII even capable of love? Not saying he didn’t have empathic qualities, but being that he spent most of his life being the center of his universe (not being sarcastic), I think it’s possible he had narcissistic qualities, and if so, had limited capacity for love.

[@joiedevivre2005]

We've seen this story play out time & time again in modern times - a man becoming obsessed with a woman, stalking her & when she "fails him" in some way, he takes her life. He no longer "wants" her but he is determined that no one else will "have" her either or that she will not be allowed to find any happiness in any way. The difference is, that now, he would likely find himself serving a life sentence in prison.

[@Phyllida-r7n]

Why do you watch it “time and time again” then?

[@Phyllida-r7n]

For your watchers to think anything, obviously real facts are needed. These you cannot supply, and throw it out for no-nothings to add even more ignorant conjecture. If you set yourself us as a well-regarded and serious channel, you need to do better than this.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I don't think we can control how others treat people. We can't predict that a man will go from "loving" someone to treating them badly, otherwise it would be prevented and people wouldn't fall for it.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I do factual videos too but sometimes it's interesting to ask questions, to "what if", to discuss theories. Obviously my videos are not for you so feel free to scroll on by.

[@mellie4174]

​@@anneboleynfiles❤❤

[@onceamusician5408]

Now that you put it this way this was clearly OBSESSION. Did he ever love anything or anyone other than his own bloated ego? Oh, he could be very generous to those who gave him what he wanted, but i am not sure we should call it love, not even in the halcyon days early in his first marriage

[@anneboleynfiles]

Oh yes, he could be so incredibly generous to people when they were being obedient to him.

[@mellie4174]

Exactly. That is typical of a narcissist. They reward people who give them what they want. And destroy those who don't.

[@moyrakeatings7878]

What you say is very convincing. One book I read on Anne described Henry's pattern as 'pursue, capture, discard'. By the way I would love a 'what if' video on whether you think Henry might have seriously contemplated leaving the sucession to the Duke of Richmond had the youth not died when he did..

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you! Ah, that would be interesting to look at, thank you.

[@welshwitch2126]

I think he loved Catherine of Aragon, but his obsession with producing a male heir took over, beyond reason. With Anne, I think it was desire and lust for somebody who said “no” to him. He probably loved her in the beginning, but it wasn’t true love. It was, once again, obsession that drove him. It was love for what he thought she could give him. He was a man who would cut off his nose to spite his face. His treatment of Catherine, Mary, closest allies, and childhood friends was truly cruel and abominable. I think Anne was doomed from the moment he set eyes on her. However, had she given him a living son, the Tudor period would have been a lot less interesting.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think he was in love with the idea of being a chivalrous knight, a romantic hero, and he saved Catherine of Aragon by marrying her in that guise. However, his love was conditional and if you disobeyed him or defied him then he could be brutal.

[@michellerhodes9910]

He had a loving and romantic attachment to Katherine of Aragon but it didn't save her from his cruelty once it suited him. I do see Anne Boleyn as his 'It' girl but I do think it was an obsession with a plan so that he could have sons.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, and I think Sir Thomas More was a father figure to him and still suffered terribly.

[@thehistory_student]

I agree that Henry was obsessed with Anne. I’ve often wondered if he did feel true affection towards her as he remained with her throughout all the stress of ‘The Great Matter’. Then again, abandoning her like he did makes me think he only felt affection for Anne when she was useful to him 😢 In the end, I don’t believe Henry was capable of truly loving anyone but himself.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think he felt humiliated after all he'd been through to marry her and then she ended up being just like Catherine.

[@wendyway6979]

One perspective never mentioned is that Anne changed after she married Henry and was crowned. She probably believed she had power and influence over governing the kingdom that didn't dare voice during the uncertainty of his pursuit of her. It would explain his sudden dissatisfaction with her after so many years of courtship. Unlike Catherine Parr, Anne Boylan wouldn't have been likely to back down from Henry's anger over her interference.

[@hutke01]

I think he had a narcissistic personality. He wooed and discarded continuously. The world revolved around him. His break from Rome and making himself head of his own church is evidence as well. It probably began in childhood. Such a scary person to hold such power.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Quite possibly.

[@Phyllida-r7n]

“Narcissistic” the new buzzword. It’s everywhere. Does anyone know the true meaning and origin of the word? Thought not.

[@mellie4174]

​@@Phyllida-r7nI have a psychology degree and yes I do know the meaning of the word and yes his behavior fits with the diagnosis. However, without being able to talk to him, one wouldn't be able to diagnose. And that's impossible now. But from accounts and his own writings he likely scored high on it or qualified for a diagnosis.

[@melissabruner1224]

Yes, I have often considered that Anne crossing him by showing disapproval of his extramarital relationships, and not having a male child (as if she could control this) really caused him some serious rage and discard type behaviors. ​@mellie4174

[@Shane-Flanagan]

It seems Alison Weirs historical fiction book - Anne Boleyn: A King's Obsession was spot on with the title choice so

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes!

[@annalisette5897]

How do men experience love? I am very much feminine and I have been married several times, all till death did part. My marriages were based upon more than lust but I see a lot of marriages and relationships that are begun with lust and many end when lust wears off. As for Henry and Anne, in the early days, he denigrated himself as a man, begging her. That was not a good image for a man and especially not for a king. So, I think he was feeling something more than pure lust. It is said the letter he wrote when Anne had Sweating Sickness had shaky handwriting and was stained with tears. It has been said that Henry did not like to write his own letters yet he wrote long letters to Anne. If it was pure lust, I think he would have behaved like the evil Duke in Rigoletto, who by the way was based upon Francis I. The lovely aria "Questa o quello", roughly translates as this woman or that one. My best guess is that Henry got into deep trouble because he risked his kingdom to have Anne. He had executed and punished a lot of people, including close friends. The Reformation risked civil war. Catholic France was a danger and Anne was like a French woman. The only thing Anne admitted in her trial was that she had not always shown Henry the respect he deserved. It is indicated that she was not submissive. And she failed to produce a prince. And Henry was likely superstitious, if only in a religious way. Science explains so much at this time that many probably have seldom felt completely helpless before God. What if Henry and Anne could have consulted fertility specialists? What if modern medicine could have shown the problems, even first with Katherine? What if the system was enlightened enough to value princesses as much as princes? Henry was getting beaten down by circumstances he created. He had killed his great friend Thomas More and others, in order to have Anne. I'd guess fear, anger, probably difficulties in the bedroom, unrest in the realm, having to quit jousting after his accident, threats from France....all added up and he lashed out in a lethal way as only kings can. At what point do the negatives overcome love?

[@anneboleynfiles]

Perhaps some people haven't had good role models, relatives that are in relationships of real love. Lust and the heady days at the beginning of a relationship wear off but should turn to something deeper, however, some people think that the excitement wearing off is the end of it and so want to move on. Relationships take work. I don't think Henry wanted to work at relationships, he expected those who loved him to obey him, to be loyal to him even when he had unrealistic expectations, and to always bend to his will.

[@mellie4174]

What you describe there is called love bombing. It is a manipulation tactic used by narcissists and psychopaths to get what they want from people. I disagree. He had an obsession with her li'e a stalker and eventually he killed her the way stalkers do when thier prey doesn't live up to expectations.

[@ninalily]

I think it started out as a love story until it wasn't. He was in love with her and because of all the stress and everything it could never evolve in to real love that lasts. and that could only deteriorate and the stress and Anne's betrayal of consistently not giving him a son, turned into a tragedy. And the things he fell in love with, turned in to things he resented probably. He fell in love with her and somehow wrapped that all up in his fantasy. I would say its above just lusting over someone. But also not quite truly loving someone. Because yeah he was in love but it came with conditions of his fantasy, pleasing his will and being an obedient wife and filling the role she needed. Her not giving him a son was seen as a betrayal.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, it certainly was not unconditional.

[@jehannedarc1429]

Very well said, Claire!!

[@danielicascaes]

Henry just loved himself and his dinasty. He was a narcisist, and narcisists only love what is good for them. And that's why he said Jane Seymour was the love of his life. Not because he loved her, but because she gave him the son he wanted so much. He would have said the same about Anne or Catherine if they had given him an heir.

[@franbanks543]

I agree, he was obsessed with Anne because she was different and wasn’t afraid to say no to him. I never get tired of reading about Anne, watching your opinion pieces. I’m so glad I chanced onto your site. ❤️🇨🇦💔

[@lucyke5070]

I think he loved her as only a sexual narcissist can love another. I’d read she was highly strung and could often give others quite a piece of her mind. Certainly she was intelligent and quick-witted. If she treated him that way, I can’t see him tolerating it for long. Supposedly the qualities that made her exciting and fascinating as a mistress also made her an overbearing and difficult wife for a man who was, literally, king of the castle.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think the way Anne spoke her mind was one of the things Henry found captivating at the start, but became wearing later. I think she was more intelligent than him too, and wittier, and that must have been hard for him.

[@cplmpcocptcl6306]

Claire is back, looking good, and on fire. 🔥 Yae us! Really missed these longer videos.😊

[@anneboleynfiles]

Aw, thank you!

[@leticiagarcia9025]

I think he loved the idea of Anne as the love of his life. He once held Anne in great esteem for her intelligence and her fierceness. She desired to be Henry’s equal. Unfortunately her personality and not giving him a son was her downfall. Everything he loved about her turned into hate. In my opinion, Henry didn’t love his wives. Sadly he only saw them as women who can give him a son. Also he was in lust with Anne. Despite of their acrimony, it was their daughter who ruled England, the Golden Age. I wish I could say more about this subject. It’s fascinating. I suffered a brain injury and prevents me from writing sentences. I keep trying. No worries.

[@anneboleynfiles]

You come across very well, so please don't worry, and thank you for taking the time and effort to comment. I really do feel that Henry felt let down by Anne. She didn't live up to his expectations.

[@leticiagarcia9025]

@@anneboleynfiles Yes, that too.

[@judyw5584]

i do not think Henry was capable of love. imo he lacked empathy. he was a control freak. someone like that can not love

[@anneboleynfiles]

Very true.

[@darlenefarmer5921]

I don't think that he was truly capable of loving anyone. I really saw this in the way that he treated his daughters...his own flesh and blood. Henry loved the Crown...nothing more...nothing less.

[@JanWilson-i4h]

How can you claim to Love someone and then have that person killed in most Horrific way thats not love l think Henry was more infatuated by Anne because she was elegant sophisticated smart and stood out from the crowd

[@laurieduerr4757]

Agree with the comments about her being his obsession, but i do think that it could have potentially turned into love eventually, if things would have turned out differently with her pregnancies...

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes.

[@pamelamorgan7354]

I think Henry was obsessed with Ann: he lusted for what he couldn’t possess. Anne was different from the other women who gave themselves so easily. If Anne had a son then she wouldn’t have been executed but Henry would still have grown tired of her. I do wonder what Anne’s life would have been like if she’d been his mistress instead of marrying him. Thank you, Claire, for another great video. PS : Any chance of you having more books available on Audible?

[@suebursztynski2530]

He might well have tired of her, but if she had had a son, he wouldn’t have been able to get rid of her, he would have just taken more mistresses. And she had made it clear she was not happy with those. I suspect if she had agreed to be his mistress he would have tired of her, but she would have survived.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I think Henry would have tired of her and taken mistresses, but she would have been safe. I like narrating my own books but it takes time and time is something I don't have much of at the moment, but I'll try!

[@pamelamorgan7354]

@@anneboleynfiles I like listening to your narration, too! I understand the time issue. Thank you, Claire!

[@historylover9999]

"the hunter also slaughtered her" that is chilling

[@kierstudios]

I think he loved Anne as much as he loved anyone in his life: conditionally. His sisters, friends, wives, and children all learned the hard way that Henry only loved you as far as you obeyed him. I think the only person he may have loved unconditionally was his mother. He loved COA until she refused to give him the annulment he wanted, he loved Anne until she proved to be more trouble than she was worth, loved Catherine Howard until she made a fool of him, and remained loving towards Jane and Parr for doting on him for all the time they had with him. Mary was welcomed back into his heart when she seemed more pliable and Elizabeth was once she no longer reminded him of her mother, who he wanted to badly to erase from history, something he couldn’t do so long as Elizabeth existed.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, there are so many examples to show that his "love" for people was conditional and didn't last if they defied him in any way.

[@mariejohnson1561]

Henry VIII was indeed obsessed with the idea of Anne becoming his mistress and later his wife, all for his need to produce a male heir. He lusted after her especially when she refused his advances-that only made him more obsessed to possess her when really, her love was for Earl of Northumberland. I wish they could have fulfilled their aspirations to be married instead of Anne marrying such a tyrant, Henry VIII.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think he was also obsessed with being seen as a Renaissance king, that he was forever competing with Francis I, and having a Renaissance woman at his side helped him with that image.

[@CraigFox-lt6lt]

You've pegged it exquisitely!! It was a glorious and heady romp that greased the wheels of the singular vainglorious mind of a King with absolute unquestioned power born from naivety and an eagerness to embrace it fully for the theater . When that fanciful orchestral note hits a thud it is jarring and unexpected!! The curtains come down,and the act is finished. Wondering if there's any similarity with Elizabeth/Essex? He wasn't Leicester after all.... Thanks Claire!!!!!

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I'm not sure that Henry VIII could cope when that heady feeling of falling in love/lust waned. I can't see any parallels between Elizabeth and Essex. I see that as a queen enjoying the flattery of a younger man, but someone who she saw almost as a wayward son.

[@CraigFox-lt6lt]

@anneboleynfiles It was just a fanciful thought. Trying to explore similarities between Elizabeth and her father. Wasn't she sort of infatuated or obsessed with this pretty stepson with all that energy,boldness (she was aways correctly cautious, and he threw it to the wind...Devereaux I mean)...but you're absolutely correct!! Elizabeth mourned deeply the loss of Essex,whereas as you pointed out Henry never shed a tear or lost a wink over Anne B. , and he such a dainty conscience!!

[@patrickgomes2213]

The past is a foreign country: people do things differently there. Although I've heard it said that certain truths about humanity and the human condition are universal (and that's why Shakespeare is still relevant and enjoyed today) I also know that many things we hold true today would be foreign to the Tudors. Having said that, from a contemporary perspective, I do believe your assessment is accurate.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think it's foreign in lots of ways, but I don't think feelings change, just their context.

[@RiseeRee]

I think that for a King like Henry VIII, experiencing real love as we understand it today would have been enigmatic. He grew up as an heir to a King whose father was not a King, and whose paternal grandfather was not even nobility. His mother was a York Princess whose parents’ marriage was deemed illegitimate by his maternal uncle and then re-legitimized by his own father when he won the throne in conquest. He saw several uprisings and pretenders to his father’s throne in his formative years. He had cousins some people believed had better claims than that of himself and his older brother Arthur. I believe that this source of insecurity would have made Henry more concerned with his image and perceptions than his actual feelings, to the point where the line was so blurred it might as well have not existed. In my opinion, Henry loved the concept of saving an impoverished Princess Catalina in a chivalric manner, salvaging the Spanish alliance his older brother would have sealed. Her being pretty, competent, and retiring would have been just an added bonus. But their image was marred by their tragic saga in the royal nursery. Lust and genuine admiration may have been a part of it with Anne, but to me it seems likely that Henry VIII simply idealized her. Her elegance, intelligence, and evangelical spirit would have been a part of it for sure, but I think a good portion of it came from the fact that Anne was unattainable. When you obsess over something that you’ve idealized for years and years, when you finally get it, it’s easy to devalue it quickly if it doesn’t match the perfect image in your head.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I completely agree with you re Catherine of Aragon. He was her dashing knight in shining armour, but then when she wouldn't submit to hi and just disappear into the background, his feelings for her, whatever they were, turned to hate. Yes, I think you've got a point with him idealising Anne. She was very much a Renaissance woman and England was quite behind the times.

[@megmcguirt647]

I agree with you! She may well have been the only person who ever said no to him. Now I do believe that that is a very long lust/obsession, but I'm also not entirely sure that Henry VIII was completely sane after a while.

[@mandygray764]

I agree that lust and obsession were what drove Henry....real love doesn't go away. I've had both....The obsessive love is gone with no feelings....The real love remains even though I'm not with him anymore.....I honestly doubt Henry even truly knew what love was...perhaps in his childhood but maybe not after his mother and grandmother died.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think Henry knew love from others but I think his love for others tended to be conditional.

[@mandygray764]

@@anneboleynfiles yes....I do agree

[@lynnekern3998]

Definitely obsession with Henry. But what about Anne? Her first suitor and possibly the man she really did love was forcibly taken from on the orders of the Cardinal. Did Anne ever love Henry? She really didn't have a choice about marrying Henry. It was a done deal. I often wonder about that. Is there any records of her love for him other than her book of hours scribbles? Her story is very sad and tragic.

[@pheart2381]

I can imagine someone that young being swept away by the idea of being Queen,but that isn't love.

[@anneboleynfiles]

She could have said no to his proposal, but I think that would have been risky when her family's livelihood depended on their service to the king. I think she made the best of it. It's impossible to know whether she loved him. He could be so generous, kind, charming, doting... so perhaps she did.

[@kartos.]

My ex, that had pursued *me*, told me he loved me hours before breaking up because he didn't think we'd live near one another after uni, so it's clear to me that some men can't understand themselves and their actual feelings. It's always been obvious to me he didn't truly love her, or he would have acted very similar to his father.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I think it's easy to confuse lust or falling in love with proper enduring love.

[@annkelly0072]

I couldn't agree more.

[@Zora3y]

I agree he didn't truly love her, but I also think what Henry felt, and what Henry thought he felt, was hard to describe, maybe even to him. We see this in RL too.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I do think Henry VIII thought that he loved her.

[@joannecassell8825]

I too believe Anne was his obsession. Catherine was his only true queen.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think they were all his true queens and he certainly had affection for all of them, even Anne of Cleves as they were friends after the annulment.

[@ninalily]

Being in love isnt real love. Its romantic. He probably was in love with her. Mix of being in love and infatuation. But being in love doesn't really mean anything if it doesn't transition to true love or real love. It can fade with time. I don't think he had true love with Anne. And you can quickly not be in love with someone when things don't go your way.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I think a lot of people confuse the two.

[@--enyo--]

Put ‘Divorced, beheaded, survived’ on my reading list. Agree with your conclusion in this video. To be honest that’s how I’ve always felt about it.

[@patmccoy8758]

Obsession would explain so much of Henry VIII's mentality with a side dish of Narcissism in there too.

[@captainmorgan5449]

Bingo. You are correct. Henry had lust...not love for Anne. Love would not kill.

[@anneboleynfiles]

No, I don't think real love can turn to hate that quickly and easily.

[@carolinesimmill4962]

I think It is complicated. Fate and destiny. Henry wanted to destroy Anne in the end, yet for those first few years he believed he loved her. But then so much started to go wrong for them both.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I do think he thought he loved her.

[@coletterice]

Can a narcissist really love anyone? I think what he felt for her was certainly lust, obsession, fascination... I'm sure he thought himself in love. Perhaps he loved her as much as he was capable of loving, but I don't think that was a very high bar. I think Jane Seymour was danged lucky she popped out a boy and then died. Then he could persuade himself that she was the love of his life and he was a tragic victim. If Jane had lived, what would he have done when he tired of her? How could he get rid of her when she had given him his precious heir? I think her life would have become unbearable. It was always, only about Henry and what Henry wanted. I don't think he was capable of love at all.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I don't know enough about narcissism to say, really, but I think Henry convinced himself he loved Anne and it was convenient too as he was looking to replace Catherine with someone. Anne, the object of his passion at the time was perfect, or so he thought.

[@CrazyArtistLady]

I've always wondered if after H showed interest, her Uncle pushed her unwillingly into H's arms. But I also agree with you, he didn't love her. It's possible that he may have lived Catherine, but by the time A B came along he was a narcissistic megalomaniac and probably was beyond being able to love someone else.

[@anneboleynfiles]

There's no evidence that her uncle of the Boleyns pushed Anne at Henry. From the historical sources, it appears that Henry VIII noticed Anne at court when she was serving his wife and then pursued her.

[@NightOwl701]

I have always wondered what Henry would have thought of his and Anne's daughter, Elizabeth ruling England. Henry loved chasing, but grew bored when he caught them. He was a selfish and spoilt brat.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think he would have been proud of his children ruling England.

[@Suza-w1z]

Not sure if Henry was truly capable of loving anyone, except for himself. A typical narcissist with the love bombing, dumping and blaming behaviors. Could be his accident and health exaggerated these tendencies. Catherine of Aragon had him at his healthiest. I think their relationship was the closest Henry ever got to true love.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think his first marriage was one of respect and affection, but still not love. He treated Catherine terribly.

[@sixeses]

Thanks Claire

[@CindyAbrodie]

I can’t see that he loves her at all. She was the one that she like for a while and them he disposal her like nothing. He did the same with everyone except James Seymour . He definitely loved Catherine of Aragon in the beggining, she grow old with the time and with the others they were was just the lady of the moment .

[@anneboleynfiles]

I'm not sure he truly loved Catherine either. I think he respected her and had affection for her, but as soon as things didn't pan out and she wouldn't accept the annulment, what he felt turned to hate.

[@pheart2381]

He liked the thrill of the chase but lost interest once the prey was in his grasp, and he realised it was just a very human female.

[@kathymcgrogan1315]

Agree with your assessment completely!

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you!

[@ardenalexa94]

I think many judge Anne too harshly for saying yes to Henry. I think with how much power and control Henry had, she honestly had no choice but to say yes at some point. Henry could be good to people but if you didn’t do what he wanted, he could also make your life a living hell.

[@anneterry3660]

Anne Boleyn is maligned and inaccurately portrayed in films and books with people taking false histories as fact. Antonia Fraser's Six Wives of Henry VIII is scholarly and wonderfully. Certainly Thomas Cromwell saw Anne as a threat to his power and interpretations of the bible limited to the priests while Anne supported access to the bible for all to read (who could read). Anne Boleyn was raised in the traditional Catholic faith, educated in France, and came to advocate reform within the Church. Anne Boleyn obtained banned anti-clerical books and supported reformists. Anne's reformist leanings would, however, alienate the people of England.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think the fact that she replaced Catherine of Aragon alienated her more than her faith.

[@Phyllida-r7n]

Wonderfully what?

[@Phyllida-r7n]

If all or any of the evidence is true, Anne was a resounding bigot. A dangerous one.

[@amandaglover9282]

I think that it was probably a mix of lust, fascination and the hunt. Henry was fascinated by Anne’s personality- her intelligence, her ability to argue her point of view with confidence, her sophistication and in particular, her feistiness. It was a novelty for a woman to stand up to him, to discuss controversial views or to say no. She dared do or say what others wouldn’t. The more he couldn’t have her, the more he wanted her. What attracted him at first, after a couple of years of marriage, became irritating and then completely unacceptable as far as he was concerned.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I really do think that what attracted him to her at the start became tiresome towards the end.

[@greybeardcanadian1036]

One thing that has struck me in my readings is that Henry and Anne would fight loudly and fairly publicly. It brings to mind his less vocal debates with Catherine Parr. He was a king, and rarely would people have said no to him. It must have been both thrilling and annoying to have someone to fight with this way. Others who opposed him or his church reforms would be killed, but these women lasted, at least for a while. I think he really enjoyed the confliict with Anne, and probably the inevitable make up sex afterwards. But that wears off after a while, and then the fights become simply annoying. You can see that with Catherine Parr, they almost cost her her life. Anne was not as clever and diplomatic as Parr. She kept right on fighting with him even after he stopped enjoying it. His love turned to irritation and loathing, and then he just wanted her gone.

[@markc1234golf]

I agree with you and i also think you are lovely :) you treat this story very empathetically , you have an instant new subscriber thank you 💕💕

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you

[@marysunflower2185]

I agree with you. But I think Henry would have said he loved Anne. I think he probably believed he did while he was courting her and shortly after their marriage. I'm not sure Henry was truly capable of real love for a woman. Maybe when he was very young. But I think power warped him, and his obsession for a son proved greater than his obsession for Anne.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think he'd say, looking back, that he had simply fallen under her spell, and I think he had. She was different, she had something that made people notice her, he wanted her, but I think it was more obsession. He hungered for her.

[@trishayamada807]

I think he didn’t like being told no so his chase of Anne was good sport to him.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes.

[@samanthajoan]

Off topic but I was wondering, is the thumbnail for this an AI image? If so, do you mind if I ask which app you used to create it? It looks amazing!

[@patriciawalsh3027]

I think Henry loved Henry, and no one else. You can see that in the way he treated his daughters.

[@slytheringingerwitch]

It was definitely lust. He'd fallen out of love with Catherine and decided that he had to be out of that straight away. Anne just happened to be in the way and he convinced himself that it was 'love.' Her stubborn dismissal of him made him want her more and then after he finally had her, the excitement was over. It was like his favourite food, he might love it but did he want to eat it everyday? Clearly not.

[@anneboleynfiles]

There was definitely some element of "the thrill of the chase" with Henry and his courtship of Anne.

[@BeeKool__113]

As always, Claire great video. Very interesting and gives we Tudor history lovers something to ponder over. I think the only person ol' scary Harry really loved was himself. I don't think he truly loved any of his wives or even his children. They all represented something to him but not that of love. Or of some kind of gain or what could be gained through them. His chess pieces he liked move around on the board. His dollies he enjoyed toying with. I think you hit the nail on the head very well. Queen Anne was his great obsession. She was a conquest to him. Akin to Wyatt's poem of the great hunter who sought the majestic deer whom in the end, he slaughtered. I do not feel this was ever love for Henry. Always lust and obsession. He loved games and he loved to hunt. It isn't a far stretch to see him relishing in the great pursuit of Anne. 🕯📖⚔️☠️💔❤️‍🔥👑❤️‍🔥💔☠️⚔️📖🕯

[@anneboleynfiles]

Thank you! Yes, I think he saw himself as a knight in shining armour saving Catherine of Aragon and then a hunter conquering Anne.

[@kevinjewell233]

When someone falls in love it last on the vast average 2 years, he obviously never grew into love, just the act of falling in love and being obsessed.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, there's definitely a difference between falling in love and love. When you're first going out with someone, it can be really heady and all-consuming, and then it changes but can be even better. If you want that heady feeling all the time, then you're just going to have to keep moving on.

[@katherinecollins4685]

Fantastic video

[@shellyklee2448]

I think it was initially lust and wanting what he couldn't have, but I think it went on as long as it did because Henry's pride wouldn't let him stop. He was not going to be told no, not by Anne, not by Catherine, and not by the pope.

[@stephaniesayers3894]

I agree with Claire. He was in lust, and Anne was in love with power.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I don't think Anne was in love with power, there's really nothing to suggest that, but once she was offered the position of queen she was ready to fight for it.

[@wandaholmes7125]

Henry loved Henry and no one else including Jane Seymour.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, he was just grateful to Jane for giving him a son.

[@matteusconnollius1203]

I dont know if there is much evidence of Henry VIII loving anybody in an unconditional sense, all of his wives he treated poorly in some way and almost always threatened them if they went against what was convenient for him, he treated his eldest child pretty badly when she did not bend to his wishes. Enumerating Henry's flaws has been done to death but I think it boils down to a lack of unconditional love

[@giraffequeen9437]

I personally feel Henry and many other men (and women too for the record, don't even get me started on the double standards involved with his own daughter "Bloody" Mary) who are vilified outright instead of having any real thought into WHY they did what they did. I do feel like women tend to get more of a sympathetic view when talked about even when they have done similar if not worse things than what a man has done. I will never condone violence/abuse of any kind and saying I believe it is important to understand the why behind it doesn't mean I feel the behavior was in any way justified or valid. I simply feel Henry 8th is judged far more harshly and vilified to such an extent that many forget that he (and everyone else throughout history and into modern times who has done atrocious things) didn't start out a tyrant or an asshole, but were shaped into it somehow and understanding where they came from can help us understand how to help others not become like them. Saying Henry never loved any of his wives and only saw them as conquests or whatever doesn't sit right to me, maybe I'm wrong, I dont know, but based on contemporary sources, he did grieve Catherine of Aragon, he was devastated when he found out about Catherine Howard's past, he was heartbroken about Jane, and he spared Catherine Parr from arrest and possible execution, so at the very least he cared deeply.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Henry VIII came to the throne just before his 18th birthday and started his reign executing two innocent men as scapegoats for his father's unpopular financial policies, so he had a brutal streak from day one I feel. Yes, I think he felt true affection for all six of his wives.

[@signespencer6887]

Exactly! Well said

[@gwinniboots]

I agree with you about Henry.

[@justv5136]

No. He was besotted with her when he first saw her, she was mysterious and exciting. And the fact that she told him no and even left to get away from him - that turned that crush into an obsession. No one, man or woman denies the king of England what he wants! And I also think that him having to pursue her might have been a boost for his male ego, believe it or not. Even though she said no, she was a woman he needed to 'tame' and make his. Not someone he just got handed on a silver plate.

[@annetteolson2401]

Hi Claire, I agree that it was lust and not love.

[@twiley3530]

Yes he loved her but he was obsessed with the son factor. The presentism of the times was cruel to both Catherine and Ann. So sad on even cruel Henry.

[@Kaylee-Renee]

He wasn't used to being told no and he outright believed all his decisions should be treated as if god ordered them. Henry believed he was always right and if he had to backtrack it was someone else's fault. I don't think Anne was playing game's when she rejected him at the start but because of his position of power she had to play by the rules of courtly love and not anger him. I always wonder if she gave in more because she realized he would never let her marry another and better to be a wife and queen than a mistress like her sister. From her jealously I do believe she fell in love with Henry he basically love bombed her until she believed it was them against the world. Henry loved the showmanship of courtly love and getting lost in his own fantasy, I'm sure he thought he loved Anne but really she was a prize to be claimed. Once he won her he expected everyone to accept her, he expected healthy son's would not only give him an heir and a spare but show the world he was right and was backed by god. When none of that happened his fantasy was shattered and his "love" turned to hate. He couldn't be wrong so it must be her and with his fantasies shattered his obsession with her was also shattered. I don't think Henry loved any of his wife's i think everyone of them he romanticized the relationship so he wasn't in love with them but the idea of love itself. He saved Catherine of Aragon an abandoned widow and she probably only lasted as long as she did because he was young and had time on his side. Jane he seen as a pure woman who god would give him a son by but he seemed board of her quickly and didn't have much respect for her. He threatened her with ending up like Anne. I think the only reason she became the love of his life is because she birthed a son then died leaving Henry to romanticize her again as the angel who died to give him his son. My understanding is he was excited to marry Ann of Cleves and when his courtly love wasn't understood he felt embarrassed. She didn't respond as he romanticized she would so his delusion was shattered and ego hurt before she even had a chance. Kathrine Howard made him feel young and stroked his ego. She was his shiny trophy. When he found out she wanted another man a younger healthy man I think his tears were more because she shattered his illusion of a young beautiful woman wanting him. He was left humiliated and I think this is what made him give up on his fantasies of love, he was old for the times in bad heath and reality set in. Katherine Parr I think he seen as a safe option, a companion rather than the love of his life. She was someone to fill the roll of mother wife and queen who he felt would be loyal and understand her duty. Let's not forget when he thought she was questioning him he was preparing to get rid of her, she only survived him because she found out and managed to change his mind. Henry loved himself he loved being loved and love getting swept up in courtly love. Once the honeymoon stage was over so was his love and when they couldn't live up to his fantasy of perfect wifes then he was done with them. Personally i dont think his injuries helped, he did seem more harsh and cruel after his head injury and his leg never healing would have kicked needing a son into overdrive, it's actually amazing he survived as long as he did in a time a small infection could kill a person. I don't think he even loved his children or his friends everybody was disposable in one way or another if they didn't live up to his expectations. The few times he regretted killing someone was when other's struggled to fill their boots. Lets face it a relationship of any kind with Henry was dangerous and the closer you were the more likely you'd end up dead.

[@tomasarfert]

No, Henry did not love Anne. Her death was murder, with Crowell as the hired hitman.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes.

[@JanWilson-i4h]

I agree with everything you said Claire..Henry did not love Anne Boleyn he lusted after her it was more sexual attraction on his part..As for Anne l think she flattered by Henry's attention of her but l don't think for minute it was anymore then that she definatly did not love him she had so many male admirers Henry Persey Mark Smeaton Henry Norris ..Henry's relentless pursuing of her wore her down l think to the point where she believed she had No choice to say NO to the King of England

[@Phyllida-r7n]

We really must stop putting 21st. century mores on to the 16th century. They were not like us, and had different values, ideals and precepts. Their educational methods and childhood upbringing certainly crafted much of their adult views and attitudes, in all walks of life. That includes their definition of love, whether we like it or not. The 21st. century is besotted by “love” and it’s been skewed by all manner of means. Everyone appears to be an expert on the word. Too easy, by far.

[@lesliemoiseauthor]

Obsession for sure.

[@anneboleynfiles]

Yes, I can't see love being so very easy to turn off.

[@nancyhilliard1634]

No he didn’t love her all he wanted was a male after it happened that it wouldn’t come from Anne all he wanted was to be rid of her and he took steps to do that Henry loved no one I’m glad the Tudors ended with Elizabeth !

[@anneboleynfiles]

I think he thought he loved her at the start.

[@meredythbusick4935]

I think he was listing after Anne

[@meredythbusick4935]

I mean lusting

[@teresalatiolais8477]

I think it was a little of both

[@anneboleynfiles]

Possibly.

[@daughteroftime8047]

I think the only wife he ever loved was Katherine of aragon and thats because it had a maternal nature and he missed his mom.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I don't think he even loved her. I think he had affection and respect for her, but as soon as she defied him then he was able to treat her horribly.

[@animallover6645]

I am a bit messed up so I may see some of these type of romances as love, however this one I do not. I don't think he loved anyone, just himself.

[@anneboleynfiles]

I'm so sorry to hear you're messed up. Yes, I agree.

[@giraffequeen9437]

I'm of the opinion that he started out loving Catherine of Aragon very much at first, but his beliefs and desire to have a male heir spurred him to forsake her for Anne. I still think he is an ass hole by the way, there isn't an excuse for his behavior and killing of two wives or the treatment of his other wives, HOWEVER, he was a product of his time and therefore cannot be held to the same standards we have today. The past was different. Again, not excusing the abuse, that is never OK in any time period, but that would explain a lot. In some ways, I consider Henry a victim to some extent too. He was born into a family that according to many had usurped the throne and was thrust onto the throne when his father died after his own brother died with no heir and then suddenly there is all this pressure to continue the Tudor line, to validate the claim his father made on the English throne. Henry was never meant to be king, yet there he was on the throne. In many ways I feel very sorry for who he used to be and what he could have become. Once again to reiderate, I'm NOT condoning his actions, merely saying it isn't so black and white, Henry, like everyone else, is only human and also a man of a VERY different time and cannot be judged by the standards of today