Octopus Energy's Heat Pump Installation Week 1: Crunching The Numbers!

[@MychDubil]

A very clear and understandable video. We have 3 EV's, Solar and batteries. No Heat Pump yet. I thought I'd just mention my experience of Octopus Intelligent. I have found it very good. On most days whenever I plug in I invariably get extra slots immediately or not long after plugging in. I work from home so I tend to plug my car in during the day alternating with my son depending if he is on early of late shift. My wife will charge over night. We have never had a problem charging the cars or the battery packs.

[@JonathanTracey]

i have moved to standard go. to be honest the extra hours won’t matter as i can charge my entire battery pack in 3 hours so extra slots are wasted on me. the batteries then run the whole house all day. come summer i will go back to agile as we are pretty self sufficient

[@JonathanTracey]

what sized battery do you have? do you charge all three EVs at once ? that’s some load :-)

[@michaelnoble5056]

The cold week has made me nervous for the heatpump at mums using defrost cycles and burning up to 9kw. Her house is big and the cost with batteries and octopus go is on par with gas on the bad weeks. The good weeks its using between 1-1.5kw and saving me 100s monthly. Very, very happy and its not half as bad as the fear mongers made out :)

[@JonathanTracey]

I think the way to look at it is over the long-term rather than on individual days or weeks, yes there are going to be days where you’re going to consume large amounts of electricity but like today where it’s 14° and windy and my heat pump has consumed less than 1 kWh for the whole day so far but the house is still a nice 20°. over the course of winter you’re going to consume more but on days when it’s not cold, you’ll probably consume significantly less. It really depends if the average is gonna be less than the cost of gas. I don’t have enough data from my system yet to be able to validate that conclusion, but that’s what I’m hearing from people who have had these things for a long period of time.

[@EverydayLife621]

They just work as a oil/gas boiler, the key thing is your electricity tarrif! if your on the standard tarif then forget it, but if you are on an "economy 7 tarrif" = happy days, its been the same for 40+ years!

[@robynrox]

Thank you so much for reporting your experience! It definitely works for you, for sure! Mostly my house hovers around 18-19C so if yours can do 22C over the cold snap, that gives me a lot of confidence. It's good to know the Daikin Altherma overestimates its consumption too; I can plan for getting a Shelly if I want to monitor that. I already have a Shelly for grid and bidirectional EVSE monitoring.

[@JonathanTracey]

Thanks for watching and glad you found it useful. Let me know if you need more info

[@SlowhandGreg]

Getting a room up to 22 with modern flow boilers weather there heat pump or gas is taxing. I have a modern eco boiler which is a lot lower temp than my old one we use a secondary heat source on cold evenings as in a log burner. 22 is way to hot for the whole building

[@jrmoores007]

Great Video I really enjoyed watching it, I have a large 4 bed detatched house that we like to run at a cosy 22'c, had a 16kw heat pump installed 1 week ago, along with 13kw solar (in addition to the 5kw I already have so 18kw total) and a single Tesla Pw3 battery (13.5kw), moved to Octopus Cosy and now I can charge PW3, in the 3 cheap slots from grid and use the battery in the expensive slot, with a trickle of solar this time of year (between 2kw to 13 kw per day/this week I got in 42kw solar), so heat pump (and all other electric used in the house inc multiple TV's, gaming computers etc) is looking to use 350kw per week and cost me £50 per week of electric (Gas and Electric last year was £500 for December). Radiator upgrades are pending install availability hopefully in the next couple of weeks, which should hopefully get the cost down more. As December is the most expensive month, this is looking really promising for the rest of the year. I like your idea of stocking up credit by selling back in the summer and using that money to pay for winter, I plan on doing that too, great tip. Thanks for sharing it's great to see real life data.

[@JonathanTracey]

Wow, a 16 kW Heat Pump must be a monster, is it a double stacked one with two fans? I’m gonna go one step further with the zero bills idea, watch a video on that one real soon.

[@jrmoores007]

@@JonathanTracey Yes it is big its the Samsung AE160CXYBEK, I would be interested to watch the one step further video on zero bills, I have subscribbed to your channel and will keep an eye out for it thank you.

[@JonathanTracey]

I’m hoping to put it together for release on Saturday, however subject to life getting in the way

[@chrispenn715]

Very useful series thank you - it will be interesting to see how your projections on costs turn out. 👍

[@JonathanTracey]

will do full months update at end of december, that way you can see the worst case figures

[@stevesmith7675]

Thanks for sharing your heat pump journey with us, JT. My own journey could follow next year now the arbitrary 1 metre rule is being scrapped. I'm fascinated by your Shelly energy monitor. A video tutorial on how to install and use would be great ;)

[@JonathanTracey]

Its not a difficult install but it should be installed by a qualified electrician (which I am not) although its a pretty simple install (details on the shelly sight) I have a complex electrical setup and prefer to have qualified people do that kind of work for me.

[@scoopjeff]

Nice one Jonathan, I stuck a Shelly em on my HP feed and have similar figures, we have 1 ev, 12kWh battery and solar. I choose to get rid of my gas altogether and fitted a plug and play induction hob. I was always a gas hob cooker person but since getting my Neff hob its a game changer. Also intelligent octopus gives me the extra slots when my battery runs out, however in process of upgrading my battery capacity. Just waiting on a small form PC to arrive so to get me hooked up with Home Assistant which with all my tech in the house will be an brain storming week or two!

[@JonathanTracey]

sounds like your a step ahead of me, we’re going to do the kitchen next year and an induction hob is 1st on the list

[@JonathanTracey]

for home assists i bought one of the home assists green appliances works a treat

[@lewisjuggins]

IOG has a dumb mode which behaves like Go from 11:30-5:30, worth switching for a larger window and cheaper rate if you have an EV/charger you can connect! Did you need to pay extra for the brickwork to be done?

[@JonathanTracey]

Yeah, I know IOG has an extra hour but to be honest, I don’t need it. Most of my stuff is charged in the first 3 to 3 1/2 hours of the window so having an extra hour really doesn’t do me any benefit. The brickwork was part of the boiler removal so included in the price they just didn’t realise how big the hole was until they put the boiler out apparently older boilers have larger events for the flue.

[@lewisjuggins]

@ interesting! I’ve seen a few other installs that were just fitted with a plastic cover, with yours obviously being preferential - maybe it varies by area!

[@JonathanTracey]

there wasn’t any discussion about other options as soon as rh boiler came out they said, we need a brick layer to fix this, will make some phone calls. maybe if it’s a smaller hole they have other options

[@peterjones6322]

We have IOG and charge our EV when we want to, which is only during the 7p. night rate. You can turn off the Octopus flexible time chargung.

[@JonathanTracey]

Yep but I’m a little concerned with two EVs and batteries we may transgress the T&Cs and octopus may put us a standard tariff. From what I see IOG is only supposed to be for single supported evs or chargers. Now I’m probably worrying about nothing but for 1.5p a kWh I’m happy to stay on this side of this side of the line

[@danfrench2008]

@@JonathanTracey I have two Tesla’s, two air source, and now a powerwall 3 installed and all work fine during IOG 6hr night tariff.

[@stevept1504]

It would be good to see updates of the discrepancies between the Daikin reported energy usage against the actual usage as reported by your more accurate measures. Octopus installed a heat pump here in November '23 but I have only the Daikin app's reports of its energy use. Thanks for the interesting videos.

[@JonathanTracey]

sure I will do an update once i have months worth of data so its more useful, Thanks for watching the videos I really appreciate it.

[@petecoventry6858]

We have just had solar and battery installed. We get 11,000Kwh a year to play with so I am looking into a heat pump and water system also. Thanks for the video

[@JonathanTracey]

sounds good, you will probably get more than you think from the solar. look forward to hearing how it foes

[@CarFinanceSimplified]

Very useful - thanks! Just moved house to a property running on oil so thinking about a heat pump. Currently on IOG to charge two EVs and we have an electric hob.

[@JonathanTracey]

do you have any solar or battery storage? that makes the running costs almost negligible. coming up,on one month soon, will let you know the full months running costs so you can compare to the oil.

[@CarFinanceSimplified]

@ No solar but may think about battery storage at the same time 👍

[@JonathanTracey]

Do them together, you won't regret it, and its always more expensive to retro fit later

[@lynnfisher4396]

Really good series of factual videos, and now we get to the really interesting part, how much they cost to run over a period of time. You will continue to get naysayers who seem to want to disparage anything to do with renewables. Those same people in the main also overlook you are spending your own money to do what you deem important. In the end all who commit to renewable use do it for their own reasons. For climate deniers that is an especially difficult concept to grasp because in their own minds THEY are right despite all the clear evidence to the contrary. Very helpful as we are currently sitting on PV, EV and 14kw of batteries with more batteries in the pipeline. We could go ASHP now but with a three year old combi, unless the amount to change after the 7.5k grant is absolutely minimal it’s probably something that we can wait upon. Technology is improving so quickly that improvements and greater efficiencies will follow, plus hopefully as more and more ASHP’s are fitted the band of installers will gain experience too. 13:37

[@JonathanTracey]

Thanks appreciate the kind words, yes if your boiler is only 3 years old its going to be hard to justify. Hopefully if companies like octopus can drive down the costs with their Cosy range of heatpumps it may become more viable for you.

[@_Dougaldog]

I have same unit and over last 24 hours it's used 22.5 kWh for heating and hot water, 15 hours of that below zero Celsius and ten hours of that between -2 and -3C in N.E Scotland. On a standard 25p/kWh tariff that would cost £6.23 which includes daily rate (61p), or on my HP tariff of 14p/kWh that's £3.76. At -3C external, living room was 19.3C, bathroom 22.6C, Hall 17.5C, bedroom 18.6C all this achieved at 36C fixed flow temperature and six defrost cycles 1960's two bedroom semi, very modest insulation and double glazed. Since end of June I've used 977kWh for heating @ hot water. (as measured using Heatpumpmonitor supplied Pi2 unit with CT clamps and thermometers).

[@JonathanTracey]

I’m using about 4kwh per days for hot water, we may dial,back the reheat function a bit in a week or two and see what difference that makes

[@m0aze611]

Thank you for posting these vids. I’m not there yet and I will know more once I have the survey done once i have decided to move forward. I am not doubting users experiences. If I can change at a decent cost as my boiler will need replacing, have a comfort level befitting my age and have a reasonable saving, then it’s only a greater power than I that will need convincing. We had warm air at my previous home and loved it, we now live in a dormer bungalow with a combi that I am getting used to now the weather is changing. 👍🏻. Government needs to do more not by taxing boiler manufacturers.

[@JonathanTracey]

Thanks I am sure the costs will come down, Octopus will be driving down teh cost of the Cosy 6 and possibly other models, this may make it easier for everyone who wants one to jump in. The start is to stop installing boilers in new builds, I believe that is immienant then you start adding tax to new installs in existing properties, while removing tax on heatpumps.

[@barticasun]

Thanks for posting great footage. Could you possibly include some content of the heat pump during normal operation on cold periods so can get a feel for any noise generated during normal operation.

[@JonathanTracey]

Yes abosolutely, I missed it this time as it was defrosted before I had the chance to setup the camera to catch the defrost cycle. However i am sure it catch it sometime soon. For noise I will borrow a friends calibrated noise meter so I can test at different distances - watch for a video soon

[@barticasun]

@@JonathanTracey thats fantastic. Look forward to the footage.

[@colingoode3702]

Good info JT. Are you going ditch your gas hob & gas meter to save even more on the Gas standing charges which alone would add up to £115p/a?

[@JonathanTracey]

Yes we’re renovating the kitchen next year, so will goto an induction hob and ditch the gas for good

[@bertiesworld]

Interesting info. I started to look at heat pumps - I have solar and batteries already. One website I went to had a table that you could input info etc. The result was it would cost me another £320 a year more over the existing amount I currently pay. Why? Seems my combi oil boiler is top of the tree. And that didn't even include the cost of a heat pump install. I won't be going there....yet.

[@JonathanTracey]

i will have a months worth of data soon, so will post it for you to see, we have had a typical month so far, some cold days some warm, most in the middle. suspect it’s gonna be a lot cheaper than my gas boiler

[@jabbathespud]

For a US perspective, I replaced a 20+ year 3 ton old gas furnace + A/C combo plus gas hot water tank with a 2.5 ton Mitsubishi Electric HyperHeat heat pump and a Stiebol Eltron Tempra 15 Plus instant hot water unit completely electrifying my place. It wasn't cheap (nearly $17K) but my operational costs for heating/cooling and hot water (admitted just for myself since I live alone) has averaged under $0.50 a day. The winter lows here are usually near 0C (the last week has been around -3C). The summer highs average about 38C but rarely reach 45C. During the winter in the day time I keep the inside around 18C but at night I allow it to drop to around 15C. In the summer I keep the place around 25C. My daily electricity costs for the past year average to about $1.50. That is 50% or more less than what my neighbors are paying. When the heat pump is on, I average about 10 kWh used daily instead of the 4 kWh when it's not in use..

[@JonathanTracey]

Thanks for the perspective, a friend in Colorado has just installed a big solar system, I didn’t know about all the inspections needed from the city before he could turn it on

[@jabbathespud]

@@JonathanTracey I'm currently having a 9kW solar system with two PowerWall 3s installed.

[@gwen0437]

I have the same heatpump and when heating hot water sometimes it will use the emersion to get the last few degrees into the tank. So to be accurate if your tank has an emersion u would have to monitor that aswell.

[@JonathanTracey]

yes, the monitoring device that we put into the consumer unit has two channels. So it monitors both the heat pump and the booster. We haven’t had any to use it yet other than for the weekly legionella cycle.

[@_Dougaldog]

I have same but usually only heat water to 43C for a nice hot bath or shower, or 60C (less efficient, takes longer & lower COP) for an occasional Legionella cycle, the unit has a small 'booster' heater which is used to take water to 65C if required, booster heater function can be disabled in MMI if I remember correctly. The immersion in the HWC could further boost it, but I can't think of a need to do so. I also disabled the 'keep water at same temperature' function on my Mixergy Cylinder, it would have maintained that using immersion.

[@JonathanTracey]

I disabled the built in control as I have a solar diverter, so I have a scheduled legionella cycle

[@paulgoffin8054]

Are you monitoring BOTH your heat pump consumption AND your immersion heater?

[@JonathanTracey]

yes the Shelly has two channels, so I can monitor both. So far the immersion has only come on once for its weekly Legionella cycle to make sure no nasties are growing in the tank.

[@paulgoffin8054]

@JonathanTracey I have the same. Just saying you do need to include that in your energy calculations. The Altherma includes it.

[@JonathanTracey]

Yeah, didn’t include at this time as we haven’t used it, but I will ensure it’s included in any future calculations

[@stevenbooth9128]

Thanks for sharing. I have had my Octopus Heat Pump survey about a month ago and have the install planned for Feb (earliest opportunity). I have already got a Shelly Pro Em ready for when it is installed. We will be losing the Gas upon install and have an induction hob ready to go as soon as the gas is capped and gone. I think I will seriously have to consider a home battery at some point, but I will benefit from being on IOG and having 6.8kW of solar.

[@JonathanTracey]

the battery will make a huge difference in the winter, cold days the ASHP could pull 20kWh so having some cheaper power in the battery can help keep costs down

[@davidsteele3037]

I'd be interested to see what Daikin say about the energy usage difference. A video on the Shelly energy meters would be useful.

[@JonathanTracey]

Happy to do a video on them, just not a install video, I don't want to encourage those who are not qualified to install them without supervision. Will pull something together

[@JonathanTracey]

have opened a support ticket with Daikin but doubt I will get much from them

[@EverydayLife621]

We have same system, surprised that the house temp varies so much. Ours is a constant 20 deg. (Our desired temp) - with a current cop of around 3ish

[@AlanMacleod-hv5ee]

You need a cop of around 4 for a heat pump to be cheaper than UK gas unless you also add the cost of a battery to your initial investment.

[@EverydayLife621]

@@AlanMacleod-hv5ee Agree

[@JonathanTracey]

the temperature varies because we’re in and out a lot, every time we let the dogs out we lose a bit of heat and our thermostat is in the hall near the front door. i’m going to be adding small room sensors so i can monitor temperatures all over the house together

[@JonathanTracey]

i don’t have enough data yet to get a reasonably accurate COP but soon as my electric bill for the month is less than i was paying for gas and electricity then i am happy 👍

[@EverydayLife621]

@@JonathanTracey keep it to yourself, but on the MMI under information, then energy data will give you an idea of your COP since instalation (its all done on the left dial) today was 11 in and 34 out, all at 7p, I have everything setup on exit temp on the ASHP (currently at 45 Deg), with no temp comp.

[@phil9361]

I use IO go once a month as per T&C's and then control the charging myself for the rest of the month

[@JonathanTracey]

I used to do this when I was on intelligent last year, but now we are too EV household officially it’s against the terms and conditions. For the extra 1.5p per kilowatt I would rather not annoy them. I really don’t want them dumping me onto a standard tariff because I’ve transgressed some rule. I’ll probably stay on go until the end of February and then switch back to agile as that give give me the lowest daytime cost for the very small amounts of power that we import and the rest will be offset by generation as we head into the summer.

[@williamhewitt1628]

Good use of the batteries. What did they cost, and how many cycles are they good for ? Could be a signisicant depreciation item. ?

[@JonathanTracey]

The data suggests they’re good for about 10 years that is also the warranty period however if they drop below 75% of the manufactured capacity they get replaced under the warranty. Like everything they will depreciate over time however in 10 years they will have more than paid for themselves, so even if the warranty is expired and I have to replace them it won’t be too much of an issue

[@shazmalik1]

Thanks Jonathan. For someone considering an Octopus heat pump this was valuable. What wasn’t so clear was when do you actually have the heat pump running, both for hot water and for heating? Assume heating (say now in winter) would be during the day running off the battery? And for hot water, do you have it set so that the water is heated overnight for a few hours using low rate? If so, does that give you enough hot water for the day in your experience?

[@JonathanTracey]

I have mine set to heat hot water as soon as the temperature in the tank drops below 35 degrees, so basically if someone has a long shower it will start heating the tank back up.In my head this will be more efficient then letting it all get cold then do one big heat cycle. Doing it my way its using between 3 and 4 kWh per day for hot water heating.

[@jamesjoyce5611]

great follow up - especially the 3rd party consumption monitoring nearly wobbled back to the intall idea, i have insufficient additional storage to warrant excessive deep cycle use for the finacial return. in winter my 10kW does 2 charges daily and only retains 60% SOC, giving only 4kW to export. vid made me think , taa

[@JonathanTracey]

it takes a little mgmt and on some days I have nothing left to export. But on days like today when octopus are giving me free power from 3 to 5pm I am exporting 15kwh right now so I ready to charge up with 20kw at 3pm when its free :-)

[@mbezik]

e.on drive v4 is a good option at mo 12-7am 6.7p and the export is 16.5p

[@JonathanTracey]

Yep, there are some great deals out there at the moment. I’m happy to stay with octopus because they’re smart tariffs work for me but you do you and all credit to you :-)

[@MegaDeano1963]

Could i also the dates of the week involved , and you calculated cop over the time scale , water + heating combined, cheers

[@JonathanTracey]

Yep didn’t think it was worth adding COP at this stage need more data

[@gavinparker5429]

How have you connected in your Eddi, is the heat pump boost heat relay output (230v) connected to the esense input on the relay board ?

[@JonathanTracey]

yes it’s wired through the eddi, so it can still boost and use excess solar, however starting to think the eddi may be redundant, makes no sense to use 1kw of spare power via eddie, when 1kw via the heat pump would give 3-4x the hot water

[@naxxtor]

Im getting a heat pump installed next week 🎉 i have been writing some code to figure out how much the past year would have cost had i had a heat pump using my consumption data from the Octopus API. As well as the standing charge for gas thst id save, it was a good 10% less than the gas cost, based on a pessimistic SCOP (and adjusted COP throughout the year).

[@JonathanTracey]

i’m doing something similar in home assistant, once i have enough data plan to automate changes to the heat pump via that. did consider going starting to the API but my python is a little rusty 👍

[@DanielEarlester]

Good start especially since it was much colder this last week. Let's get some more figures to get a better picture over the year. Does the heat pump cool too for the summer?

[@JonathanTracey]

Yep, data is going to be our friend for the next year. No, for reasons but I don’t really understand the UK government will not give you a grant towards your Heat Pump if it has the ability to call your house in the summer. Basically, I think they’re worried that all the gains from moving to low carbon heating will be wiped out if you use it to call your house in the summer. For me that’s not too much of a problem we generally only have one to 2 days a year that it really needs air-conditioning and I have a portable unit that will work just fine for those days.

[@leslieburrows5293]

Hi Jon Les here just back from holidays and you now have your HP installed so I have some catching up to do but I Agee the Dailkin app is not as good as it could be and I think I might get one of them energy monitors things into mine, so was it a DIY job ? Or expensive? How you a video on how it’s fitted.i have no gas now but my consumption has shoot up for electricity but not had time has yet to have a good look at the set up as I have been away for 3 weeks. Thanks

[@JonathanTracey]

Hi Les, hope you had a good holiday. The Shelly should be installed by a qualifed electrician, and although I am capable I would not do it myself. I used a local company called Artisan Electrics who I get in to do anything that involves the consumer units, that way I can be sure its done properly and to code. Small things i do myself but not that.

[@paul_null]

We are having a Daikin 8kw installed next week. I'd like to get a Shelly installed by the installers to monitor the heat pump. How many circuits does the heat pump have and which Shelly's do i need to monitor them? Is there a circulation pump circuit? Presumably the hot water tank has it's own back up heater as well.

[@JonathanTracey]

The heat pump has three circuits, but only two need to be monitored. One is the heat pump itself, the second is the booster (immersion heater) and the third which does no need monitored is the emergency pump. I used a Shelly Pro EM 50, it can monitor two circuits. Here is a link to the one I used. For full disclosure this is my Amazon affiliate link. Won’t cost you any more but I will earn a small commission if you use it. amzn.to/3CJgfOa

[@bozwellboyce8364]

Quick question if I may. I've not given up on Heat Pump just yet, but not with Octopus. If I can get a design under 9Kwh and avoiding noise issues and I swapped out the gas, I'm wondering what peak demand would be for running the heat pump and having an electric Hob, or Oven etc. at the same time. I'm limited to 3kwh due to inverter on GivEnergy AC Coupled (this can be up to double if panels are producing c3kwh through inverter at the same time), but that won't be the case in Winter. So I'm wondering if I will end up with a much higher electric bill as it could/would be coming from peak period/tarrif. I don't mind using more electric, its how much will be drawn at any one time I'm concerned about. Any thoughts on this JT? Thanks

[@JonathanTracey]

My 6kw heat pump drew 3kw on a -2 day for about an hour, then the load lessened, single oven will draw another 3kw and no idea on a hob but say another 3, so hour at 9kw peak load. This was why I upgraded my 3.6kw inverter to 10kw, as I was always blowing through the max the inverter could supply

[@bozwellboyce8364]

@@JonathanTracey I knew the answer, but had to ask. That might be the nail in the coffin for my attempt at a heatpump. Thanks for the reply, very appreciated.

[@JonathanTracey]

Anytime.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

​@@bozwellboyce8364if your oven/cooking use is predictable, you could set the heating temp slightly lower for the period you cook (so it is unlikely to come on)?

[@ldm3027]

your external fan unit is pouring out a plume of cold air into an enclosed space whic h compromises the HP efficiency . It is better to raise it up so that it doesnt suck in its own exhaust

[@JonathanTracey]

We did a smoke test and coupled with the prevailing winds. There is no issues. The cold air is being evacuated away and not being pulled back into the evaporator even when there is zero wind there is sufficient space that nothing is getting pulled back in.

[@ldm3027]

@@JonathanTracey Im surprised by that - I am fitting an air to air only aircon heater unit and am raising the external fan more than a metre above my small enclosed back garden in London to prevent exhaust recirculation

[@JonathanTracey]

i have about 3-4 meters either side of the fan and 1.6m in front, with prevailing wind (we have 5 miles of flat fields begin our house) it has no problems circulating. the guys used a small smoke pellet, that shows how the air is moving, on the day we tested it was a close to still air as possible and there was still a circulation

[@ldm3027]

@@JonathanTracey ok you are in a fortuinate location and have done a lot of homework but this is a poorly understood area - I have even had an installer say that it didnt happen Basically the fan outputs X kw of cooling power (heatpump in heating mode) where X is the COP-1 which can be a very significant effect depending on the design of the whole physical layout

[@IM35461]

Very interesting, I was wondering on how the payback and running costs would compare for a similar size house with no solar or battery storage? I also suspect off peak cheap rates will begin to disappear as electricity demand over night must be increasing all the time with more EV's both commercial and domestic, ASHP and batteries being charged. One day off peak demand could be greater than daytime command especially with the reduction of industries in the UK.

[@JonathanTracey]

not sure i can answer that without more data, but don’t think we’re in danger of seeing cheap rates disappear anytime soon. The last 24 hours as a good example, when the wind blows we have so much excess power in the grid we have zero or negative prices. just today we had free power from 7am to midday

[@AlanMacleod-hv5ee]

@@JonathanTracey Recently the wind didn't blow for nearly two weeks and the contribution from wind fell to 3% of our total demand. The electricity came mainly from nuclear, gas and burning dirty woodchip. I'm on a tracking tariff and today I also had cheap electricity all day (40% below the Ofgen cap for standard variable) and tomorrow it's not as cheap but lower than the cap by around 20%. BUT during the winter months when most people use most energy for heating this situation is not common. You really cannot assume that cheap off peak energy is here to stay when the Government targets are for nearly 1 million ASHP per year and us all driving EVs in the next 10 years. The true economics of a whole electric household being cheaper than a hybrid gas and electric household really depends on a crystal ball prediction of what energy costs will be in 5 or 10 years time.

[@AndyKennedy]

Please could you do a video on how you set up the Shelly? Was it easy to do? Just pop the section out and replace it? That's my main concern, I can probably get it added to home assistant myself. Currently about £64 to buy is that right?

[@JonathanTracey]

you need a qualified electrician to install it unless your happy doing it yourself. i won’t do an install video as it may encourage people to do themselves , when they really shouldn’t.

[@AndyKennedy]

@JonathanTracey thanks for the quick reply, just to confirm you did yours yourself?

[@JonathanTracey]

No I had it done by a qualified electrician

[@gavjlewis]

How close is the heatpump app compaired to the energy moniter on the other days? Is it in your example reporting 18kwh and of that 18kwh 4kwh was used for water. So actually 18kwh reported isn't actually far away from the real figure of 18.51kwh.

[@JonathanTracey]

So just to be clear my energy monitor is the combined power of both the hot water and the heating system. That’s what showed 18.51 kWh the Daikin app reported 18 and four for a total of 22 kWh that’s a significant delta. Unfortunately the app only gives you two days to compare before it defaults to weak and year so there’s no way to step back day by day however yesterday which was very mild in comparison showed 15 for heating and 4 for hot water on the app for a total of 19 kWh and the Shelly showed a total of 14.99 for both, a difference of 4 kWh. I double checked to make sure that the hot water wasn’t being recorded on the booster side of things, but that showed a total consumption of 3 W for the whole day so there is a disparity in the data in the app. I really think this is down just to the way that they are rounding up the numbers into whole numbers over a period of time this is causing the discrepancy.

[@_Dougaldog]

@@JonathanTracey If you look at the Daikin MMI unit information/energy usage you can see up to seven days for 'this week' (Mon-Fri), and the seven days for previous week. The data can be for heating (Sun symbol), hot water(Shower symbol), or the combined total (Sigma symbol). The 'Produced Heat' can also be viewed similarly. Unfortunately both are still to that 1kW resolution, although totals for each since installation can also be seen and over time may give better accuracy as to SCOP to date.

[@JonathanTracey]

thanks will take a look, i can’t believe there isn’t a web interface for data nerds on these units, i almost feel daikin are trying to hide something

[@derekpaisley620]

Good concise video. Are you happy with your COP at the zero or nearly zero outside temps ?

[@JonathanTracey]

Yes seems to be around 4, will need a little more data to get better numbers, the install team suggested waiting for a few months before measuring its COP, to average out the warm and cold days

[@derekpaisley620]

@JonathanTracey currently on cosy tariff, and exploiting the 3xcharge at 12p , the additional investment for more than the 15kwh battery was too much. So effective 45kwh on a 7kw arotherm. Looking forward to the data.

[@Lewis_Standing]

One way to correct for the short data period is to look at degree days. Ie. The colder days you use more energy. A degree day is a whole day where the temperature difference between outside and inside is 1c. Ie you want 21 but its 20c out. So 1 degree day. But if its on avg 0c and you want 21c , that's 21c etc for all in-between temps. So if you look uo your annual degree days for your area then compare that vs your week. You should get some good figures. Saw this first on Tom Bray's channel if you want to get a better explanation

[@JonathanTracey]

Thanks will take a look, as I said this is just week one data, once i have more and a full winter under my belt it will be much more accurate. Will checkout Toms channel, thx

[@Pav_1983]

Can you share the cost of the battery install? Although this works for you for an average Jo, who pays 24p kWh, savings won't be that great. What is the payback time including batteries. I'm getting ASHP installed (hopefully) in January. i was thinking about solar PV, but with smart tariffs, batteries look like better investment. Even if you have solar, you still have to pay standing charge. Our energy use is very predictable, so having batteries and charging them over night woudl make sense. Thank you!

[@JonathanTracey]

the solar and batteries are paid off already, had solar for 14 years and batteries for 5 so have recouped the cost already, so they have no bearing on the costs of the ASHP. today they would be a lot cheaper than i paid

[@JonathanTracey]

adding batteries allows you much more control over the cost of your energy, add more solar and you can get to a point it’s a net zero cost. you generate enough in the summer and export it to cover your entire winter running cost plus the standing charge. remember you don’t have to ge there on day one. i used the savings each year to re invest into the system

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

For us, solar has a shorter payback than battery, due to battery having a shorter theoretical lifetime, limited by cycles.

[@AndrewSmith-ih7sl]

Helpful video. As you already had home batteries installed I guess its fine to discount their cost from the payback period. But someone getting this installed from scratch would need to spend how much on 37kwh battery storage to run the system all day on stored energy?

[@JonathanTracey]

Battery prices are coming down, but when I had mine installed it was about 24k for three 9.7 and the other 7kw was about 5k

[@AndrewSmith-ih7sl]

My wife's family live in Sweden. My farther in law heats his whole (super insulated) house on 1 air-to-air heat pump, and my brother in law has a ground source heat pump that has saved him a fortune. My rough calculations suggest I'd need 2 of GivEnergy's 13.5kwh batteries at £7.2k a pop on top of the heat pump install. I'd do it tomorrow if the sums added up.

[@JonathanTracey]

The difficult calculations is, should I buy now what does it add up to, what if I wait for battery prices to fall,how much would I have made if I bought when I originally looked at it. Sometimes you just have to go for it

[@jfinnie78]

@@AndrewSmith-ih7sl I suppose it needs some careful calculation as to what level of batteries really makes most sense. 100% battery shifted heating which is only required a few months of the year might take a very long time to pay back. On the coldest days I need 70+kWh of gas for heating, and my electricity load is something like 15kWh. Say COP of 3.5 on coldest days , 90% gas efficiency would be 18kWh of electricity for the heating; so 33kWh total. Say 28kWh capacity if the charging is being done overnight (while charging use grid electricity in the house). But 2/3 of the year 12kWh would do. In round money that would be 2 Tesla powerwalls instead of 1; how many years would it take to pay for the second one when it's only actually used a few months of the year?

[@AlanMacleod-hv5ee]

@@jfinnie78 Bear in mind that for longevity of the battery you may only want to charge it to 80% capacity and never take it anywhere near zero charge. Efficiency may be as low as 90% - more energy to charge than you can get back (lost in heat etc.). Also building regulations have changed as where you can now install a battery. No longer in the loft space. No-where in a house where a battery fire would become a problem. Possibly OK in a garage.

[@MagicianMan]

Thanks Jonathan I was particularly concerned to see the significant difference in the measured Electricity used between the Shelley and Daikin. It leaves me wondering how accurate/inaccurate the Energy Out numbers are!! And makes a mockery of calculating accurate COP/SCOPs for Daikin. I have to wonder whether this is even legal or not. . So the first point I should mention is that MCS advise installers to Under Estimate the COP's on the paperwork to limit, as much as possible, legal action as the quoted COP's form part of a legal contract. . Another thing you may not be aware of is that it is reported that the LED light on the Daikin Thermostat (used with the Midoka MMU) actually distorts the reported/measured temperature by 0.5-1.5'C! . I don't remember seeing what COP you were quoted from Octopus for your Heating and Hot Water. We were quoted a 4kw Daikin with Flow Temp 46'C, 3.65 Heating and 2.69 Hot Water Our friend had a 6kw Daikin installed with Flow Temp 46'C, 3.65 Heating and 2.69 Hot Water. We have been using the Daikin supplied numbers for Energy In and Energy Out (we were aware of the rounding issue) and measuring the Total, Heating & Hot Water COP's Weekly and Monthly. The idea is that the monthly will be less affected by the rounding issue and once we have a full years numbers (excluding the first 3 weeks post install whilst it was getting up to temps) we will use this as proof..... . What we measured though has been interesting. In the summer months (Heating off) Hot Water schedule to Heat the Joule (EKHWSU180D)180L HW Cylinder, once per day @ 1pm to 48'C and a 30min, 60'C Anti-legionella cycle on Sunday immediately following the hot water schedule the COP never went above 2.49 (August 24). Typically the HW COP has been around 2.3. However once the weather started to get cooler from October, and weirdly, the HW COP increased to a high of 2.63 but now that temps have dropped dramatically is trending down. The only thing we can attribute this to is that the Heat Pump effectively starting up and then running for 1 hour (1.5hrs on Sunday) is grossly inefficient and now that is running constantly those startup losses no longer impact the situation. . We haven't got anywhere with Octopus Aftercare raising this issue other than some very spurious, verbal, statements. a) We had to change your cylinder from the Daikin brand to the Joule brand so that is why your COP is below the projected. The Joule is actually a better spec. b) You requested a larger cylinder 180L vs 120L which is why your COP is lower. This was known and changed at the outset. All of the primary pipework, valves, HW Cylinder, filter etc etc are all brand new installed by Octopus. We also told them that the Fernox Filter installed reduces the primary pipework down from 28mm to 22mm and is not a Heat Pump Specific Filter but the same as would be used on a Gas Boiler designed for flow rates 1/4 of an ASHP. This will impact efficiency but not by a crazy amount. It looks like they are now fitting Adey Heat Pump Filters as shown in your installation. . Low Hot Water COP of 2.69...... Obtaining the actual specs of the Joule (slightly improved over Daikin) spec cylinder was ridiculously hard. But we finally discovered the spec of the UK.EKHWSU180JE/TK = Coil Surface Area 1.7m2 (or 27kw) & Standing Heat Loss 1.39Kwh/24h. With the Cylinder being installed in the Loft he is losing (measured start of November) approx 10% of heat energy every day. When compared to a Heat Geek Super Cylinder of similar size they have coil of 4m2 (235% larger) which would offer a better COP for Hot Water due to larger surface area. . We are left with the following conclusions: 1) The Filter is impacting the combined performance 2) Something is wrong somewhere and is dragging the entire COP down of the HW and Heating? 3) That the HW Cylinder is insufficient in Coil Size to adequately supply hot water at the quoted COP? Or a combination of one or more of these factors. . Finally coming back to your calculations for heating Hot Water being more efficient than with gas. Obviously you are correct it "should" be "X" COP versus 83-93% efficient. However you also have to remember that Gas is 1/4 the price of electricity so would in theory need a COP of aprox 3.32 to break even (4 x 0.83%). . I have included the data log of the information if you, or anyone else, would like to see it. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VMg808SWmwFH6wfb5I6VyU6HPDVI2CoMMngo0goJoHg/edit?usp=sharing

[@JonathanTracey]

Wow, congratulations on earning the award for the longest comment I’ve ever seen-thanks 😊 Regarding the discrepancies in readings, I’m actively gathering more data to get a clearer picture. It’s a fascinating (and slightly concerning) observation, and I’ll definitely report back once I have a more robust dataset. Thank you for mentioning the potential issue with the LED on the Daikin thermostat affecting temperature readings-that’s not something I was aware of, but I’ll investigate further. As for the design flow, mine was set at 50°C at -2.5°C, with a SCOP of 3.43 for heating and 2.69 for hot water. Like you, I’ve noticed that the observed performance seems to be better than these quoted figures, though I plan to give it another month of monitoring before considering any adjustments. For now, everything is performing well. On your final point, I agree with your take on the lower COP being quoted-it’s likely a deliberate approach to manage expectations and avoid legal challenges. If they quoted above the cost of gas, there’s a good chance people would cry foul. Thank you so much for your detailed reply and for sharing such valuable insights-it’s a fantastic contribution to the discussion!

[@janetmorris6792]

Just waiting for the Octopus Survey, Have had the quote of £3000 for our small bungalow, Have a10kw battery and 4Kw of solar along with 2 EV's . I keep our Snug nice and toasty as I make use of the night time GO rate to charge our Storage Heater which will last all day keeping the room warm, the other item keeping the room warm Is an Oxygen Concentrator (300) watts running all day as I am on Oxygen and that's free to run as the installer pay back the electricity costs for running it (Free Heat)

[@JonathanTracey]

What model of storage heaters do you have, thinking of one for my conservatory as we can't extend the wet system into it.

[@janetmorris6792]

@@JonathanTracey Made by Newlec, 3kw with 2 controls heat in and heat out when needed, Has large silica bricks inside and weighs about 120kg, size is 800 x 600 mm also put one in our conservatory a 1.7kw model these were used on the old economy 7 tarrif and are about 15 years old but still in good order, Don't waste big money on the latest one's as they don't work as good (Clay Filled)

[@ChrisSmith-up8nk]

How easy is the energy monitor to install?

[@JonathanTracey]

Get a qualified electrician to do it this is not something you should be watching a KZbin video and doing yourself :-)

[@ChrisSmith-up8nk]

@@JonathanTracey Great, thanks. Octopus heat pump install scheduled for Feb. Your videos have been great thanks. My quote a touch over £2000, with new tank and radiators throughout.

[@JonathanTracey]

That’s a great price, hope it all goes smooth for you

[@greyfornowgames9590]

Can I ask how much battery capacity you have? I have a similar battery+ev+octopus go set up but if a air pump uses 15kw per day then my battery is nowhere near big enough.

[@JonathanTracey]

We have 37.5kwh of storage

[@greyfornowgames9590]

@@JonathanTracey 😮

[@JonathanTracey]

Ye my name is JT and I have a battery problem 😜

[@greyfornowgames9590]

@@JonathanTracey😂😂😂

[@JonathanTracey]

don’t tell my wife but i was looking at another ecoflow battery in the black friday sales 😇

[@alanbutterworth4219]

Ive just changed to Tomato Energy....5.5p off peak per kWh

[@JonathanTracey]

what are they like to deal with, always a little suspicious of new small companies after they all went bankrupt a few years back

[@alanbutterworth4219]

@JonathanTracey I've no idea really. I signed up, they informed Octopus and within a couple of weeks I had moved. Just with Octopus for gas. I don't export so maybe they're not for you. If they go bust, I'll be put back with Octopus. At the moment, it means I'm saving over 3p per kWh which akes a big difference over winter when I rely on the grid to charge up my batteries.

[@JonathanTracey]

Sounds good, my worry about them going bust is because you end up on a standard tariff until a new company takes you on, you can’t switch until you have been processed. My neighbour was stuck in a standard tariff or 4 months.

[@alanbutterworth4219]

@JonathanTracey I was with O tops in the beginning g, around 2017. I then switched to one of the sm Aller companies, I forget who because Octopus was too expensive. I enjoyed lower prices for a few years contacted in for a further fixed price in July 2021. In September 2021, the company went bust along with about nine others. I was eventually moved back to Octopus on their standard rate (I had no smart meters or solar). Eventually, during the price hike especially of 2022, I was paying 17p per kwh for gas and 60p per kwh for electricity. This was supported by the Govt cap of 33p for elec and I forget what for gas. It wasatthis stage that I decided to get some panels, inverters and lead acid batteries. A smart meter came next so I could get on Octopus Go. I am in no doubt that all this was Govt led to get Joe Bloggs to pay for infrastructure to support net zero. Those who can afford to invest in new technologies will do so, as I have done. My system provides hot water and elec for about seven months of the year, with the overnight grid top up doing the other 5months. A heat pump would be next on the list, but I'm not sure I'll be staying in the UK so have held off on that investment.

[@lerx75]

We had octopus survey our home and said we couldn't have one as it wouldn't be able to heat the space. We use 1000 litres of oil for heat and hot water every 18 months so the oil and house insulation is very economical?

[@JonathanTracey]

Wow do you live in a very old property with poor insulation?

[@lerx75]

@JonathanTracey sort of, we have an old cottage but it's been insulated throughout (50mm Celotex wall insulation) We have a large kitchen extension built this year with 150mm cavities, 250mm roof insulation yet its 13x5m and vaulted roof which was their worry. They said it wouldn't be a good idea to use a heat pump, we would need the largest Heatpump they do and would need to change all the plumbing and Rads so they won't be offering it to us. Location of the HP was also a worry as it would be a long run to the only location they would fit it.

[@_Dougaldog]

@@lerx75 Sounds like it was beyond their scope to do the task and turn a profit. Did they provide heat loss calculation figures from their survey ?

[@lerx75]

@_Dougaldog they never provided the heat loss survey, just said they wouldnt advise installing a heat pump over the phone the day after. Now he did say he could alter the figures to make it work as we were just on the limit but said the Heat pump would be a 12 or 17KW I think, but with the prices at the time being 43p/kw hour he said oil would be cheaper, as we would need to make alterations to the heating system, and dig a trench through the garden to the location of the heatpump. Oil seems to be so far really economical compared to our old Gas boiler. In winter with the house set to 19 degrees and heating the 230 litre water tank for 2 bathrooms we use £20-50 oil per month .

[@deekireland3682]

Usually people ask me first how much is your electricity bill, I ask them how much is your heating oil bill (it’s rural ireland no NG) I can tell them my bills they can never tell me their oil and electricity bill. Basically data is King, measure it graph it analyse it. Then install a heat pump. NO BRAINER. Great videos thanks.

[@JonathanTracey]

To be honest I never used to look at my gas bill, just paid it, but I poured over my electricity usage, as you say data is king :-)

[@slihaven675]

I’ve only been in the business 50 years. Only an amateur 😂

[@JonathanTracey]

You know what they say you spend your whole life trying to become a professional and it happens the day before you retire

[@deekireland3682]

@ in fairness I have been in the business of reducing energy and monitoring systems for over 50 years in the UK and Ireland and got very well paid for it. I’m retired now but still offer advice and assistance to anyone that needs it and charge a coffee and a pastry.

[@JonathanTracey]

sounds like an interesting way to spend your retirement. I’ve been on this path for a few years as I’m trying to reduce my expenditure on energy to as close to 0 as possible as I’m probably 3 to 4 years away from retiring and I don’t want my pension being at the mercy of global energy prices

[@danfrench2008]

I’ve just moved into a house with 2 Dakin ashp units, so I’m guessing total 6kw for hot water and heating. It’s got to winter and I reckon it’s costing like £5-6 a day to run the house. Don’t know if the setup is wrong but it’s appearing to costing more than Gas central heating so far

[@JonathanTracey]

If you didn’t set them up, I would get a heat pump expert to come look at the setup. It’s possible the config is off. Also are you on a tariff that is designed for this kind of usage?

[@danfrench2008]

@ I’m on octopus intelligent go. Cosy and Agile forecast to be more expensive. I have an app that tracks and compares. I’ll get the company round who installed it, they serviced it just before we bought the house.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

​@@danfrench2008perhaps a second opinion might be worthwhile? Two heat pumps seems a bit odd unless the house uses a large amount of heating?

[@danfrench2008]

@ there’s two as one can heat the water whilst the other does the underfloor and radiator heating. My house is fairly big as well which is why, it’s a new build that’s well insulated, with MHVR system also in each room.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

@@danfrench2008 generally one heat pump would switch between heating and hot water? If you have two, they would be chained, so that one is used most of the time, but when necessary, the second kicks in. You could ask for advice on a Facebook heat pump group? £6 per day seems okay for a large house?

[@ballathiam9486]

For those that think that heatpump are a scam, they should look at Norway. 60% of houses there use heatpumps. Sweden 43% and Finland 41. Surely, it is impossible to scam that many people in those countries?

[@BenIsInSweden]

But the UK has a one of a kind climate that happens nowhere else which means heat pumps for some reason don't work. At least that's what the KZbin comments keep telling me. 😂

[@JonathanTracey]

They all say its a scam with no evidence, just their own "research" which when confronted with cold hard data shows they are just being foolish.

[@pmac6584]

@@JonathanTraceyI wonder how many of these nay sayers are working in an office with warm air blowing, not realising that it is more than likely a heat pump. Commercial buildings have been heated/cooled by heat pumps for decades.

[@AlanMacleod-hv5ee]

@@JonathanTracey It's different types of heat pumps for different climates. Scandinavia has more stringent building regulations for insulation. It's possible to fit a heat pump in all types of buildings in the UK but in general the older the building the greater the cost as older building have a greater heat loss and often do require greater modification of existing heating systems etc. In many houses a place has to be found for some form of hot water tank, which is not required with gas combi boilers and is a popular method of heating hot water in the UK. Add batteries to the cost of installation and in a fairly modern house the overall pay back may be 5 to 10 years. In a older house the pay-back may be closer to 20 years by which time many components may require replacement hence no savings at all. Also factor in annual maintenance checks which appear to be more expensive than those on gas boilers. This is also assuming that when enough people adopt electric central heating and millions more are charging EVs overnight that there is going to be a 4:1 difference in peak and off-peak electricity. There may be no such thing as off peak electricity. It all really comes down to the house and a trustworthy heat survey from a reputable company. Do your own research and avoid the companies set up to scam the grant money available. I see from further comments that there is also solar installed so some of the figures quoted for the pay-back are not just for the installation of the heat pump alone but actually rely heavily on the investment of a battery and solar. No battery and the cost of the electricity would be the peak time cost when the heating was on and not based on overnight costs when the battery was being charged.

[@SlowhandGreg]

My brother lives in Norway thier houses are insulated to within an inch of their life, he has a single air to air heat pump. It gets to -40 Our houses are drafty s holes with inefficient water based convection systems​ Simples @BenIsInSweden

[@mentality-monster]

Once you're on intelligent you can just override or ignore it entirely. I got signed onto it for the lower price but it doesn't work with two EVs, so I just disconnected the car from it. I didn't get kicked off. Worst they can do is move you back. I still tell the charger to favour green times, so my conscience is clear.

[@JonathanTracey]

for the very small increase i will probably just stay on go. i did as you describe last year with. no issues but i don’t want them suddenly saying i’m breaking the T&Cs and drop me on a standard tariff #thatwouldbebad

[@edwardbyard6540]

What charger have you got? We have 2 EVs and it works fine with our Ohme Home Pro. I don't bother to change the cars over in the Ohme app, so our Zoe always goes to 100% whereas the Tesla gets to about 80%. Remember that the intelligent sessions are billed by the half hour, so if the car finishes charging at 2 mins past the half hour, you have until the next half hour on cheap rates.

[@edwardbyard6540]

Forgot to say we also have a 13 kWh battery and ASHP!

[@JonathanTracey]

We have two Zappies and they will only support one, so we have to do it via the cars, and only one is supported

[@JonathanTracey]

how are you getting on with your ASHP, how long hav eyou had it?

[@gmuzz]

Great to see it's making a difference already. It would have cost you 2.5k ISH to replace your boiler so your return should factor that in. Also Intelligent Go would let you get the cheaper rate till up to 11am in the morning. Might be worth having a second look as we've not noticed any real problem with charging our 2 EVs

[@JonathanTracey]

to be honest extra hours won’t really help as my batteries and evs charge in about 3 hours, so extra hours cheap rate don’t really add much to the equation. wrt the boiler yes our plumber friend is going to give me a quote for would have done it for at mates rates, because that’s what i would have actually paid. will factor into next set of numbers

[@zedman442]

Does that monitor you plugged in monitor the elements on the cylinder as ultimately that is what will kick in when the heatpump can’t generate the heat required to warm the cylinder.

[@JonathanTracey]

yes the Shelly Pro has two CT clamps and can monitor both. not run into a situation yet it’s been needed, at least-3c outside our hot water was 47 degrees more than hot enough for a good shower

[@zedman442]

That’s good to know. Many horror stories you read is that the heat pumps are not enough a the heating elements are always on to top up the hot water/heating.

[@JonathanTracey]

if setup right they work (from my 1 weeks experiance) mine is designed with a flow temperature of 50 degrees, I like my hot water at 43, so its more than enough.

[@zedman442]

It would be interesting to see what octopus recommend for the temp of the storage cylinder especially with the risks of legionella below a certain temp.

[@JonathanTracey]

So mine is set to 43° with a recommendation that at least every two weeks you boost it to 65°. I currently have a schedule set to do that every week.

[@timfontana2769]

I'm going to pick the why not Intelligent Go fight - agree that having Octopus choose when to charge the car can be a little annoying. It used to be possible to limit the Ohme charger I have to only charge in off peak (effectively it was using a rigid price cap and not letting smart charging override it.) The issue I have is that my charger is wired to take power from the battery if the inverter is in 'discharge / self consumption' mode. I've been caught out a few times and woken up to a battery that's only 80% full because Octopus have decided to move my early morning charge back by an hour or so. However, I still think it's worth it. 300kWh a week is 12-1300kWh per month. That's £18-19.5 a month difference, or £230 a year. I've yet to have my car refuse to charge during the day AND if I find myself low on battery, it' generally possible to force a 'smart charge' by being creative with your targets. I'm hoping to have a heat pump installed in the Spring, and I'm hoping that between the batteries and slightly manipulating smart charging, I should be able to get good results. If you're adamant on not having Intelligent Go, you're probably better off with another provider. Eon Next drive do 6.7p/kWh overnight for an extra hour over IOG and Tomato have various tariffs as low as 5p/kWh overnight.

[@JonathanTracey]

So i am on Go just not intelligent go. The difference is only 1.5p a kwh and one less hour. Makes maybe a two pound difference over the course of a winter month, in the summer will go back to Agile. I know IOG gives you one more hour than standard GO but I have no need of it, my batteries and cars usually are at 100% by the end of hour 3 or 4 at the most, so having 6 vs 5 hours makes no differnece to me. As you say one of the downsides is the extra hours that IOG offers if you have hybrid batteries as there is no easy way to stop them discharging, as i have a 10kw inverter that means the car would just empty the entire battery in those extra hours. So to prevent this and keep control I chose standard Go. Hope this makes sense

[@rogerweller-i3d]

Thanks for a great insight. We've just had a Adlar heatpump fitted 14Kw . Seems fine except very high daily cost, £15! We are on the Octopus special heatpump tariff ( 3 cheap sessions a day ) Do you keep your pump all the time, do you adjust the TRVs to suit each room and what storage battery do you have and how much did it cost ? We have a large detached 5bedroom house with 10 solar panels and one electric car. Thanks for your super easily understood video. Roger

[@JonathanTracey]

we are still in the experimental stage, seeing what works best for our home. today was the first very mild day and the heat pump consumed almost nothing so far. we haven’t adjusted our trvs as the installer said that could make the pump cycle on and off more often, so trying to find an even temperature that everyone likes

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

Heat Geek tend to suggest leaving TRVs fully open for heat pumps

[@MegaDeano1963]

Thanks for the video . Couple of questions . Why not tabulate and display your numbers , whilst stating assupmtions . During the summer months my gas for water and cooking is around £10 Month ( excluding standing charge ) so i find £2 a day assuption interesting. Why have you not included the battery in your assest list /cost ( as i think it was part of the advantage you declared ) . As you also have differing figures for the amount of electric used , why not show the figures using both measurement methods ? . Also it would maybe drop out if displayed but how much of your saving relies on a cheap tariff for electric . Also i know for certain i wont be saving £600 plus as my yearly gas bill is less than that including standing charge . But cheers for the obvious effort involved in presenting this project.

[@JonathanTracey]

Thanks for the feedback, will try and improve it when I have more data to report. My savings always rely on cheap electricity but these type of tariffs are common in the uk, and have been for 50 plus years so don’t see them going away any time soon. In the summer I don’t use the grid hardly at all, we generate huge surpluses. My yearly gas bill was about £1000 so that will go away fully by middle of next year. Will see if I can Improve the numbers for you next time.

[@MegaDeano1963]

@JonathanTracey again those electricy surplusses , will be associated with a asset cost . At 15 p /kwh equates to £150 / mw considerably in excess of commercial power producers. Thanks for the response

[@JonathanTracey]

I'm not sure that level of calculation is somethign I am capable of, I'm a tech guy not an accountant but will try and do my best to cover all aspects.

[@ram64man]

John did you get the snow today? If you did please post your results for that day specifically, I’m trying to compare it against the r290 Mitsubishi multi split in -5 c temps , granted my one was two 11kwh but I got a kwh usage using ct clamp monitor of 26kwh to heat and warm 200 litres of water , my Panasonic branded Ono was a a rated and had a heat loss of 3kwh a day , it kept us in hot water for the 3 days without power , and a Panasonic air to air unit same condition when the power came back used 23kwh to heat for the day . Using 34c air

[@JonathanTracey]

no nothing had a mild day around 14 right now, very windy but no snow

[@ram64man]

@ oh ok if you do get a snow drop please record the details for that day 24 h period specially . Now I’m back in the U.K. most of the time I’m trying to size up if it’s worth it , as I haven’t had much joy us side with my troubled institution so an really trying to find worst case scenario as described above to compare it too.

[@jonathanallen985]

That's exactly the same way I would set our system up. Large battery, import all the energy at night and then run the whole house through the day. One question I have is this. Imagine the grid goes down and you have a huge amount of battery stored energy, could you switch off the grid, plug in an EV to any socket- set it to discharge (I have an MG4) - would the car make the house inverter "think" the grid was still up and then allow the whole house to continue to run off the batteries. That would emulate a V2H set up from a V2L EV...The car might also take up any demand spikes the home inverter and batteries could not cope with? I know you could have a automatic isolation switch - just wondering if there is another way to use the car battery if there is a prolonged electricity outage

[@JonathanTracey]

So we can run off grid with our batteries but our cars don’t support V2G or V2L so we can use them to supply the home. But two,of my batteries are mobile and can be charged from a ev charger, so in a real emergency I would goto a public charger, fill the batteries and bring them home and plug them into the house.

[@_Dougaldog]

@@JonathanTracey What's the make/model and capacity of your mobile batteries, would it be feasible to use them to charge an EV for those with no home charging available ?

[@JonathanTracey]

abosolutely, we have 3 x 9.7kw SolarEdge batteries and 7.2kw of Ecoflow Delta Pros, all feeding the house. in teh summer we regulary charge the cars from them, the thing that stops most people doing it is the inverter. Lots of installs only have 3.6kw inverter. We made that mistake a few years ago but swapped it out this year for a 10kw beast.

[@rugbygirlsdadg]

It's potentially extremely dangerous to "fool the system into thinking it's still powered from the grid". If it starts exporting when the grid is down, the DNO engineers trying to fix the problem will get a very nasty shock, and once they trace where the current came from, you'll finish up in court. 😐

[@JonathanTracey]

I have box called a backup interface that physically disconnects the grid, it then operates in island mode, using an earth we had driven into the ground. So no danger to anyone downstream

[@SoullessAndSynthetic]

It will depend on the ev charger you use and your cars, but I have a Zappi and two EVs with intelligent octopus go. The real benefit of that is that Octopus turns on the cheap rates and the car charger even if the car is already charged and I can get as much as 10 hours a day of cheap rate electricity. I only have 12.6kw home batteries, but with the cheap rates and some clever home assistant scripts I can top up the batteries during the daytime cheap periods. You don’t get them every day, but probably 4-5 days a week and that all adds up. Plus I got my solar first, so I get FIT payments even if I don’t export any solar so I’m currently using around 5.2Mw py, which at peak rate should cost around £1352, but I average about 10p per kWh so instead only about £520, and with about £380 a year FIT payments my electricity for a 4 bed house, 2 EVs costs me about £140 per year! Just shows how much investing in renewables pays off. Just need to get the heat pump in now to get gas’s turned off and make sure real dent in my energy costs.

[@JonathanTracey]

It’s the same for octopus go, you get 5hrs instead of 6, but can go gang busters using a s much as you can at the low price.

[@SoullessAndSynthetic]

The intelligent tariff gives you additional charge periods during the day though, but only if it thinks your car is plugged in….that’s my magic sauce to maximising the battery usage.

[@alanpark9670]

Outdoor consumer unit 😅??

[@JonathanTracey]

No issues have a few of them, enclosures are weather proofed to ip68 standards. They also allow isolation close to the device if work is needed.

[@simonpickard5791]

How do you manage to change your home battery and Ev at the same time off peak,doesn’t the battery charge at only 3.5 watts an hour not leaving enough time to charge the Ev in 5 hrs as you can’t charge both together as I was lend to believe?

[@JonathanTracey]

I have a 10kw inverter so it can pull in 10kw every hour. You can charge both at the same time but you need to be aware of your incoming supply fuse size. Mine is 100amp which is 24kw. I did a video a few weeks ago about changing tariff where I listed all the things we charge together and how much power they use.

[@pmac6584]

I have an 80amp fuse and charge my 18kwh battery and EV every night no problem. Great video btw the internet needs more facts about heat pumps to battle the FUD.

[@JonathanTracey]

Glad you found it useful, the number of people posting comments saying it’s a scam is unbelievable

[@gerryking4346]

@@pmac6584that’s interesting. Do you have solar? I’m planning to get a heat pump from Octopus. I’m wondering about the viability of getting battery storage as well and getting rid of gas i.e. heat pump + battery

[@pmac6584]

@@gerryking4346yes I have 4kw solar, ev, lux/hanchu battery, ripple shares and fully electric kitchen. I have my name down with octopus for a heat pump. I have been running my gas boiler at 45 degrees to prove to myself that I can heat the house with low temperature flow. So far it is ok.

[@Glyn001]

👍👍👍

[@JonathanTracey]

Appreciated

[@OldeJanner]

Energy prices just keep being driven higher by the net zero zealots and 22Kwh per day is massive amounts as we only use 150 per month + approx 12 cheap rate, in October as no more recent readings are available on my Eon account. 22Kwh × 30 days = 660 × 30p = £198? Ours is £97 at the moment and £250 in credit.

[@JonathanTracey]

The net zero zealots sounds like a club. I should be a member of I use nearly 3 times as much energy as you do running to electric cars charging my batteries and the Heat Pump and I pay about 1/4 of what you do, so does that make me a zealot?

[@steviec1871]

Did you factor in the annual service cost of servicing plus the full replacement cost of batteries and solar panels in ten years and possibly the heat pump itself..I will never be convinced this is ever going to be cheap energy for the average hard up family..

[@JonathanTracey]

No one is saying it’s a solution for your average hard up family as with most things in this life those that can afford it are able to do it. But because of early adopters the price will come down and it will be then become affordable to those on lower incomes. To your other points, I’ve had solar panels for 15 years now and never had to replace one. They’re still continuing to work, I’ve run an electric vehicle for 10 years never had a problem with the battery so I think a lot of of the scare mongering around what are these things gonna cost to replace are just that,scare mongering. Ultimately my solar solution paid for itself in about nine years, the Heat Pump will probably pay for itself in about five years but a gas boiler will never pay for itself and it will continue to output noxious gases while it’s running. Where is my heat pump puts out nothing but clean air, while most of the year it’s running on free clean electricity.

[@chriss4949]

Thanks Jonathan. This is our first winter with our Octopus Heat Pump….so far so fantastic 👍

[@JonathanTracey]

Glad to hear it, were lovely and warm and have no complaints at this point

[@StephenButlerOne]

Id cook in your house. We fuxualte beween 16 and 18 in our house. The nest has been trying to cook us the last few days, its a bit to clever for ite own good.

[@JonathanTracey]

I like it cooler (sitting here in tee shirt) but wife and mother in law like it warmer

[@UpsideDownFork]

You're clearly just a shill for Octopus Energy! 😂

[@JonathanTracey]

Absolutely 💯

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

Big Octopus?

[@davideyres955]

Wow. Your kWh is more on average than my usage. On my absolute worst day last week was almost 1/10th of your average daily usage and that day I was running dehumidifiers.

[@JonathanTracey]

yes we’re a heavy user but there are a few reason, every day in winter we charge two electric cars, plus we fill up our grid charged batteries for the home. this runs the house all day and we export any excess we don’t use. this gives us a bit back each evening.

[@danfrench2008]

Your comment about intelligent go forcing you to charge when octopus want isn’t correct. Intelligent you get 23.30-5.30 a longer period of time to charge, and you can fill your batteries up and run ashp during that time for 1p a kWh less. I’d definitely recommend you look at switching as it will make a difference to your bills

[@JonathanTracey]

What I was saying is that on the intelligent version of go, octopus defines when your car will charge even if it’s just between the six hour period that you mentioned. Because at max capacity my house could draw more than 100 A, I want to be in full control of that schedule and having octopus decide to extend it which they did last year when I was on intelligent could mean that too many things are pulling power at the same time. I’m currently on the standard version of octopus go which gives me five hours instead of six and it cost me 8.5p per a kWh instead of 7 per kWh. We fully charge our home batteries in about three hours so having an extra hour would make no difference to me whatsoever and the very small decrease in price would also make next to no difference maybe a £ across the whole month.

[@danfrench2008]

@@JonathanTracey they only extend it for the car hooked up, that’s why you go through the setup. And you get charged the 7p during that extended period just for the car being charged. You still have control over the draw of all the other appliances in the house, and they would be charged at the day rate outside of the 6hr night period at 7p. I’d suggest you get the octopus compare app and it’ll show you how much on a day by day basis you would save. I’ve had various diff versions of octopus over the past 6years with solar, and 2 teslas, and now a powerwall and heat pump.

[@olly7248]

We need everyone in UK to do all this… after the National Grid has been updated with billions of £ of taxpayers money … 🤬

[@JonathanTracey]

Ah yes, the crumbling grid argument. Funny how companies like Octopus manage to give away free energy during peak supply if we’re so strapped for capacity. Turns out, the grid’s fine-it’s smarter use we need, not billions in taxpayer panic money.

[@mikthomas]

Once the government discovers its loss of VAT once everyone rushes to save money by installing heat pumps, you can bet your life in 10 years or so they will recover that lost VAT another way. So when everyone says in 10 years we’ll be in profit, I would not be so sure, as there is no way the government is going to let you get away with cheap energy - not going to happen.

[@JonathanTracey]

So, no crystal ball then? Governments adjust taxes all the time, but the VAT exemption exists to drive adoption of beneficial tech like heat pumps. Maybe spend less time guessing doomsday scenarios and more time learning how tax incentives actually work.

[@mikthomas]

@ It’s called being realistic. Look at EV cars 😂

[@JonathanTracey]

“Oh no, 12 years of driving EVs without a single problem? Clearly, I’m doing it all wrong! I should ditch my reliable, efficient cars immediately and get back to the glory days of oil changes, engine breakdowns, and gas station queues. Thanks for enlightening me-I’ll start looking for a horse and cart to avoid all those ‘failed’ modern technologies!”