Off The Rails: British Rail Class 13

Off the Rails: A series diving into the history of lost & forgotten parts of British Rail.
This time, we take a quick look at the unique Class 13, a class of 3 locos based at Tinsley Marshalling Yard.
NOTE: Whilst I make every attempt to locate the source of the videos and photographs used in my videos, many are taken from other websites or KZbin videos were sources are not cited. If you are aware of the source of the 'unknown' photos or videos then please do not hesitate to comment below.
Thanks for watching!

[@jeanbonnefoy1377]

An interesting fact is that this combo sort of unit (a 0-6-0 coupled with a cabless truck dedicated to manoeuvres in hump marshalling yards) had an almost exact twin on the other side of the Channel, dedicated to the exact same use in the guise of the French railways C61000+TC61100 (initially 030DA+030DTA) double units. First diesel locomotives built after ww2, those 030 - European for 0-6-0 - locos with connecting rods were equipped with an electric generator on the sole main unit. On the truck one, not only the cab had been removed but the electric generator too, allowing a drastic height reduction of the motor part for a better visibility from the driver's cabin.

[@NewController01]

Thinking about it, if someone WANTED to make a working replica of one for a preserved railway, they would just need to find 2 second hand 08s to build one

[@c2757]

Love the subtitles - "Tinsley martian Yard" - I'm still chuckling.

[@TTXV]

Nice one Jack, lucky enough to see all 3 as a kid spotting at Tinsley its nice they are remembered

[@The8224sm]

Thanks for the great video. The 08 Class and the later iterations and variations is a great example of a design that has stood the test of time, along with the 37 Class and the 47 Class created in the days when designs were created on a draughtsman board with a pencil and set squares etc.

[@wilberator9608]

I can't think of a more fitting number than 13

[@ant6695]

Brings back great memories of spending a Saturday or Sunday afternoon watching these locos doing their stuff. I remember once, a wagon being sent over the top of the hump and as it manoeuvred across some points there was a load clanging sound and it had presumably jumped the points and derailed, I remember there was some liquid spuirting up from the trackside and someone came out of the signalbox to investigate.

[@stephensmith799]

Not ‘a bodge job’! Class 13 was an excellent, cost-effective design solution. What would have been the point of developing and building three totally new locos to a totally new diesel electric design specific to hump shunting?

[@user-ie1lz4oi3o]

Class 13 ,is what Britain has always been good at ,making something work with what you ve got .

[@jeanbonnefoy1377]

Just discovered your channel. Excellent job, carry on! I love the rare footage, the comprehensive and straight to the fact comment and the absence of superfluous soundtrack or sound effects.

[@MrJimbaloid]

Never understood why they took a cab off. Just leave it as it was so it could be put back to an 08 if needed.

[@cwt5654]

Presumably it was due to impaired vision when used in the original back-to-back configuration.

[@eddherring4972]

So why not couple nose to nose like a flexible 12 wheel class 58? Then you have a cab at each end.

[@cwt5654]

@@eddherring4972 Had they realized the back-to back wasn't going to work well, they may have opted for this solution from the outset.

[@MrJimbaloid]

@@cwt5654 That makes good sense.

[@archstanton5603]

@@eddherring4972 You would have to keep changing ends else suffer significantly impaired visibility.

[@southsidediy]

These remind of a home brew version of the American EMD TR series cow and calf switcher sets.

[@harpic4]

It would be good to see a replica or modern equivalent built for the NRM. Take 2 redundant 08s in the same way and make a new class 13 in a similar fashion to Tornado, numbering it 13004 accordingly.

[@hoagy_ytfc]

I don't understand the comment at 0:25 about "a single Class 08 ran the risk of grounding". Any 08 behaviour would be replicated by two 08s coupled together, which is what a 13 is. Basically, this video is just misunderstanding what's reported on Wikipedia. What's reported there is about a single "locomotive" grounding, not a single "Class 08". It's saying that two articulated short locos (2 x Class 08) was better for a hump than one long loco (it doesn't specify what loco, but it's basically referring to one larger, more powerful, machine. Say, a Class 20).

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

A Class 08 can deal with convex vertical curves down to 3 chains, whilst a Class 20 couldn't pass over anything tighter than 9.75 chains.

[@beeble2003]

Yes, the grounding comment is a total misunderstanding of something that's completely obvious. Anything bigger than an 08 risks grounding, so you use a pair of 08s to get the power you need.

[@archstanton5603]

Remember these well - thank you! 🙂 Significant weight was added by the extended buffer beams on both the inner and outer ends of each power unit. The cut-down cab of the slave unit was to improve visibility which wasn't good (particularly on curved sections of track).

[@darylcheshire1618]

The VR had converted 5 T class locos for hump shunting and were the H class, they carried concrete ballasting and had special gear to run under 5mph. The H classes ocasionally ran outer urban passes to Bacchus Marsh or Sunbury. They still do to this day although more DMU sets were introduced. I never knew if the hump ballasting (concrete blocks) were removed after hump shunting was ceased. They never ran very fast, seldom more than 80kph. I remember going to Sunbury in wooden cars and pulled by 2 H classes on a really hot day. Another passenger commented on the slowness of travel even if it was double headed. The Sunbury line is now electrified running sparks.

[@70sVRsignalman]

Dear @darylcheshire1618, actually H1-H5 were delivered new by Clyde with extra weight and creep control, initially numbered T413-T417, though quickly renumbered primary due to their additional weight., which restricted their route availability. (The T class were intended for light lines use.) The current T413 was second hand xFyansford cement

[@metropod]

There is at least one know version of this kind of configuration that actually added an extra cabless unit. It’s from the Chesapeake & Ohio, and being a North American Railroad, we use the term “Cow and Calf” instead of that phrase we will not touch with a 1865 foot pole… The EMD TR3 (based on the EMD NW2) which had one “Cow” and two “calves”… and as such was nicknamed a “Heard”

[@JSmith19858]

On ships we called it "Father and Son"

[@ukmoshinist4595]

I would question the reason given for their construction.ie. Grounding on the hump, as the conversion does nothing to mitigate this. At Temple Mills, pairs of class 08s were also used in tandem, for power reasons, but they were both manned. My guess would be that the class 13 was developed simply as a project to reduce manpower, and save money.

[@RJSRdg]

I suspect the reason was that single 08s weren't powerful enough to shunt long trains of wagons over the hump, and bogie locos like 20s or 37s would have grounded.

[@beeble2003]

He's just confused. Of course 08s don't ground, which is why they just stuck two of them together. The actual point is that a longer locomotive would have grounded, so that wasn't an option.

[@stephenwalker6823]

Class 08s originally had no multiple working facility, but it appears that blue star capability was added to some, later on, which would have reduced manpower requirements by itself. There is a bit more to a class 13, which is basically a pair of 08s, with permanent MU capability, but also with added weight for better adhesion and the cab of one removed to make seeing past it easier.

[@holmesjunction]

No idea what you meant by 'grounding' as they had no problems on the hump. Other, longer wheelbase locos DID have problems, which is why they used 08s. The locos were built as D4500/1/2 and wore those numbers for quite a few years.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

He read the Wikipedia article. A Class 08 can do a 3 chain vertical convex curve whilst something like a Class 20 can only cope with one over 3 times larger at 9.75 chains.

[@beeble2003]

He's confused, as usual. They couldn't use something longer than an 08, because that would ground. But an 08 wouldn't ground over the hump, so they basically created a permanent double-headed 08.

[@whitesapphire5865]

I had heard of these, but always thought it was a myth! My dad worked as a shunter ay York South from 1954 until he retired in 1987. He mentioned these engines, and the characteristic "chopped off" cab. Though none were ever used or needed at York, he was among a group who went to "look and learn" about them. I still was never really sure if these things existed or not, and never having seen one, not even a picture of one. Then here we are looking at them. I guess by the time they were scrapped, there'd be little or no point in rebuilding them back to 08 specification. As I recall, shunting at York was well in decline by 1985. Still plenty going on, but only a shadow of what was there some twenty or thirty years previous. A pity that no one stepped up to save at least one of them.

[@teeny61]

I did see one at Swindon awaiting scrap but was always curious why they were sent that far just for scrap and how they got there. Presumably very slowly as part of a freight train, rods removed too

[@22pcirish]

Likely recovery of parts.

[@emjackson2289]

"Hump Shunting" at Tinsley was required right until the Soviets blew it up during the events we saw during Threads.

[@Shelfandtabletoplayouts00gauge]

Funny interlude 😀 Another nice vid👍

[@AJsBusVideos]

I saw a pic of these on Wikipedia. This is one of the most unusual diesels I’ve seen BR create. And I’ve seen the GTELs (also on Wikipedia)

[@stokes8626]

Went to Tinsley from Derby in 1882 with my brother as kids trying out Ian Allen's Locoshed directory to get there, I still remember Brinsworth three Magpies being mentioned in the route planner from Sheffield station but anyhow when we got there we only saw 13001 and 13003. Never realised at the time that 13002 had been scrapped. Annoying at the time lol

[@petercollingwood4108]

Yes, went there from Harlow Essex in 1974 as a kid with my mates, with my Ian Allan loco shed directory. The three magpies pub was where the bus took us. Great days. Still remember the three magpies all these years latter.

[@joshuaW5621]

The Class 13 is certainly a weird type of Gronk. Shame there weren’t more shunters like them or that they weren’t still around.

[@user-gk8gg1zt7l]

Nice video, Like !

[@amazi6542]

Hey, the audio is only coming from the left speaker! Overall, really informative and well done video!!!

[@thedave7760]

I hope you are aware that you only have your voice over on the left hand channel, I think you did that on your last video as well.

[@garethmatthews7939]

would have been nice if one would have been preserved

[@richardpicking4459]

I though I saw a class 13 at Temple Mill hump yard in the early 80's? Is this possible or is my memory playing tricks?

[@ronnieg6358]

The shot at 2:12 looks like Deltics being scrapped.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

The Class 13s were created because a single Class 08 didn't have the required traction and braking force to handle the loads going over the hump. A Class 20 would have had the power but would have been operating at high power and low speed and would have been a maintenance nightmare, plus its length would have put it in danger of grounding unlike the diminutive Class 08. The Class 20 can't handle a convex vertical curve of less than 9.75 chains (196.14m) for the Class 08 it's mere 3 chains (60.35m) vertical convex curve. This is the danger of grounding that the Wikipedia article refers to.

[@peterjohn3180]

If 2 class 08 (13) won't risk grounding, then a single one surely won't? Plus with 6 coupled wheels what is there to ground? Potentially the opposite perhaps, the centre wheels could be over loaded. Also as far as braking goes, all the braking is done by track retarders and the wagons are not coupled to the loco: it pushes to the top and gravity does the rest, thats what made a hump useful for mixed trains, faster than individually pushing every wagon to each train.....

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

@@peterjohn3180 it's not the braking on the sorting end of the hump was the problem, but holding a heavy train of the way up the hump from the approach side. The Class 08 has a brake force of 19 tons and the Class 13 has double that at 38 tons.

[@stephenwalker6823]

@@peterjohn3180it is not grounding of an 08 that was the problem, but that an 08 was not powerful enough alone, two 08s gave visibility problems past the second cab and alternatives that were powerful enough (such as the class 20), risked grounding.

[@peterjohn3180]

Wikipedia used the term grounding meaning minimum curve radius?! When the subject is the hump suitably? The video was talking about the hump not curves, as hump yards don't use tight curves, they are long and straight aside from shallow points, I hadn't watched the video in a while, but it went over the reasons for creating the 13.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

@@peterjohn3180 please go back and read my initial posting and not that I am talking about convex vertical curves ie curves between one incline and another. This means in the case of a hump the curve between the input side and the output sides, or in other words the curve at the peak of the hump. The horizontal minimum curve for a Class 08 is 3 chains whilst a Class 20 is limited to curves of not less than 3.5 chains. A goods wagon with a 9ft or 10ft wheel base can go around a horizontal curve of a mere 1 chain. I don't rely on Wikipedia for detailed information like this I go straight to the BR diagram books.

[@michaelcampin1464]

Wasnt Thornaby the biggest marshalling yard in Europe at one time although now it is a shadow of its former self due to the closure of both British Steel and ICI in Teesside

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Not sure if it was the largest in Europe but it did cover over 200 acres and had 95 tracks at its widest point. It was designed to handle 7,000 wagons per day but never got above 6,000 wagons per day.

[@hoffwell]

Wasn't the largest Kingmoor, Carlisle?

[@andrewbennett7756]

That's wen BR had gre ides a great idea

[@jcabral6231]

join the movement, return the much beloved pacers #blovedpacers

[@stuew6]

Hey I got info about this class 13 was on Thomas tank Engine name 'Arry and Bert

[@davidparry1968]

Quirky if nothing else.

[@panchorgo269]

Spanish 7768 intro???

[@shopdog831]

I dont really think that creating a yard slug variant of an existing class really deserves the title of a new class

[@jimbob4472]

The BR Diesel classes are set by horsepower outputs of the locos on the TOPS system and not just added randomly gifted. A single class 08 is 350hp. Two permanently coupled doubled the output and therefore could not be defined correctly on the TOPS computer system. The class 13's are not simply 2x 08's coupled together, but a new output class all together.

[@beeble2003]

It's not a slug. Slugs have no diesel engine and take their electrical supply from the mother. The class 13 is a pair of permanently coupled locomotives, each with their own diesel engine.

[@pollyjackson-dzacchaeus1342]

im getting no sound

[@DrRock2009]

Sound is only in the LH channel…😡

[@charliemartin1400]

If you want to see a model of this, Echills Wood Railway has had a 7 1/4 inch gauge version visit regularly, (as can be seen in the link below) kzbin.info/www/bejne/gH3EqHZurbxrnqMsi=MpVkP0QmOWaGFyJt

[@abloogywoogywoo]

(sees Deltics getting scrapped) OOF

[@ANobodyatall]

Slave and master? Would be 'problematic' in our age of stupid.

[@bingbong7316]

The were indeed called "Master and Slave" units, but that terminology was given up by the early 1970s, from what I remember.

[@SeverityOne]

In other countries, they call them cow and calf, which is a bit friendlier than master and slave.

[@ramblingrob4693]

Political correct

[@SeverityOne]

@@ramblingrob4693 A friendlier expression would have been 'kindness'. Notice a pattern?

[@johnhenfrey5936]

Another extinct class of Loco, more of out Heritage thrown away.

[@petersmith4455]

its a pity the clowns didn't save any for others to see in years to come

[@WhiskeyGulf71]

How stupid ! I get that they didn’t need a master slave loco but that aside, the two parts were still 08 locos so why did they scrap the cab locos ? Once detached from the slave, it was essentially a class 08 again. I’m sure the other part could have been used as well as a remote shunter of some kind. When it’s public money there is never any consideration to waste ! I find it to be very frustrating.

[@stephenwalker6823]

The cab was removed to aid visibility, so that the driver would not struggle looking past the cab of the slave loco.

[@22pcirish]

At the time they were withdrawn there was still a huge pool of shunters to shuffle about so the cost of de-conversion made it pointless.

[@ianhudson2193]

Had to stop watching by 52 seconds due to the repeated occurrence of utter nonsense in the narrative!!!

[@JackStackhouse]

I know Tinsleys a bit shabby now, but it was never utter nonsense!

[@beeble2003]

@@JackStackhouseEr, he's accusing _you_ of being nonsensical, not Tinsley.

[@ramblingrob4693]

@@beeble2003 Lol

[@22pcirish]

@@JackStackhouse Just as busy today with container, aggregate and steel trains.

[@Scots_Diesel]

First