On The Ramp | WHEEL ALIGNMENT issues on a hydropneumatic Citroën - What NOT to do!

A public service announcement? A tinpot experiment? Art Attack?
Not sure. But, if you're tracking a hydropneumatic Citroën, don't be tempted to put the suspension in high-mode! Here's why...
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Did I mention I own an SM?

[@timstinson1]

Damn that’s a clean BX. I remember the Meteor was out at the same time as my Dad’s TGD. I always preferred the TGD’s 3D wheel trims though. Thought the Meteors looked like they came off a Montego!

[@martinwhitaker5332]

Never gave it a thought that this happens, might be best to have it checked in France during a nice summer holiday. Great explanation of how the suspension changes .

[@Scrubworks]

Regarding the track/tie-rod debate, I call the steering rack arms track rods. To me, tie-rods are part of the suspension. They're obvious on Morris Minors at the front, where you have two metal rods with bushes at the end that connect the lower suspension arm to the chassis rail to keep it located. That's British terminology of course, the Americans will call it a hamburger joint or something.

[@mrcogginsgarage7062]

This is why we kept our old floor mounted tracking gauges only work on the front wheels good for getting the tracking right but not for alignment check.thanks Rich.

[@x_x_x_x_x]

Brilliant video - love the detail and the tractiva has become useful

[@UPnDOWN]

It's nice that it has a use now.

[@scottishcarenthusiastsandtrain]

Great informative Video Rich, you have reminded me i need to get the tracking done on my Cactus.

[@jugostran]

Very informative video, and nice new haircut/beard. Anyway, this is quite a funky BX. Seems to be one of the "limited" editions they did near the end of the production run. However, what's interesting is that it exhibits many of the flaws mine has. Mine has a pressure regulator that sounds the same and engages just as much. My struts are also just as sticky as the ones on that. Seems to be consistent with lower mileage BXs. Mine has around 80k on the clock, but the last 18k were done in the span of three years. So it was definitely not driven much in its 34 years of existence.

[@bondbug73]

Nice BX. Interesting explanation and demo on this subject. I was surprised by the differences. Acetone with latex gloves should clean off those felt tip marks. Enjoyed the Royalty vid.

[@AJC508]

Alternatively, try scribbling all over those with an erasable marker. Works on whiteboards … corporate presentation top tip.

[@thisiszaphod]

Well played, Kitch!

[@jorgefernandez-mv8hu]

Thanks for the lesson. Sometimes you have to see it to believe it. You would be my mechanic if I lived anywhere near you.

[@peterriggall8409]

That’s a lovely example of a BX. I like the plain plastic wheel covers……plus the rest of the car of course.

[@nickfarrow9032]

Had the same problem on my slammed VW Beetle about 15 years ago. Used to take it to a local garage that still had the old fashioned Dunlop tracking tool with the mirrors. Not a lot of good if you want four wheel alignment though!

[@oojimmyflip]

on both of my BX's a 1400 RE and a 1.7 D tyre fit centres always adjusted the tracking on high because of the rear arch dilema it makes perfect sense now why you shouldnt, most of them complained that they had to find a very short spanner to adjust the track rods on the front of a BX.

[@davidsharp9166]

My BX has sticky front struts oh the fun

[@bazasulli4975]

That noise at 2:52. Spat my dinner out laughing.

[@UPnDOWN]

Sorry!

[@Pumaspeedracing]

Back in the 90s when I used to buy repair and re sell bxs I bought many with leaking octopus pipes and I struggled with getting them tracked correctly I found a local old citroen guy who would track mine using string and they always seemed ok

[@UPnDOWN]

String boxing is a bit rudementary, but it's probably no less accurate than the drive-over gauges.

[@SeasideGarage]

Great stuff this...!

[@UPnDOWN]

Cheers. Enjoying your Princess vids too!

[@AlexBarrettOWI]

> pointing to the right gReater. < pointing to the left Less

[@UPnDOWN]

Thanks. I will immediately forget this!

[@grayfool]

Good one. So, when you're up you're wrong and when you're down you right. Got it. So if you're only half way up, you're neither right or wrong. Also, we learnt that you don't draw on you Tracktiva. That would be silly.

[@UPnDOWN]

It would be dumb.

[@PaddyWV]

Is there a similar disagreement between front and back for cars with trailing arm rear suspension and a negative camber?

[@UPnDOWN]

Depends on the ride height & the extremities I suppose. Most cars have less suspension travel than a BX. Really depends also on whether it's trailing arm rear suspension, or semi-trailing, as the latter has a much bigger impact on toe due to its design.

[@PenryMMJ]

Interesting video. Just as a side point, why would a person want to suck an egg? Is it something people used to do? are they still doing it? I prefer mine scrambled.

[@UPnDOWN]

Don't knock it until you try it.

[@bryjan51]

Sooooo, when driving on high ride height, the tracking is out🤔.....or not?

[@UPnDOWN]

It would be, but you don't drive on high ride height, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[@knutarneaakra6013]

I am ,mad cars love them. Guess they are too advence for common garages.

[@littlealmcb943]

I would agree with you if the tie rods were straight. But if you watch you video your tie rods are more z shaped that pivot as the car moves up and down keeping the alinement the same (ish). But then again who knows with a shitroen.

[@UPnDOWN]

Shitroen? That's....that's comic genius! I've never heard that! Brilliant!! Also...the shape of the tie rods doesn't alter the distance between the two points.

[@littlealmcb943]

Just a thought. Interesting videos keep them coming.

[@tomcat7525]

You've had a haircut!

[@UPnDOWN]

Yes, I do it when the clocks change.

[@peterspiers2428]

A lot of up n down in that lesson.

[@MattBrownbill]

Can't Citroën quote the tracking on high? Or somebody work out the offset? Also, I thought I saw an SM in the background..... 😂

[@UPnDOWN]

Too many variables involved. Plus, Citroen will have their own special tooling for doing the tracking at their dealers. And yes, you did see an SM! Good spot!

[@lomofo3531]

Ooooh a meteor. Nice.

[@UPnDOWN]

Yep, it's a lovely car this one.

[@426baron]

23k miles ? No wonder it looks brand new !

[@UPnDOWN]

My mk1 has done 22k and looks brand new, too. Right? RIGHT?!

[@426baron]

@@UPnDOWN yes it does ! It may be the black car effect. I apologize.

[@ghaddon1701]

The lighting definitely does mine some favours😅. It's driving lovely Rich, thank you!!

[@UPnDOWN]

@ghaddon1701 - On the contrary, the fluoresent lights in here make things look worse than they are, so it's doing a good job!

[@Invisibleman7]

Almost didn’t recognise you, after a head n beard trim

[@UPnDOWN]

It's an annual thing

[@Invisibleman7]

@@UPnDOWN getting my head n beard trim tomorrow 😂

[@Wired_Mike]

​@@UPnDOWN like cutting my lawn, it's that time again 😂

[@isaacplaysbass8568]

A cool demo, but just a quick question: Would the tracking gauge show the toe-in/out actually changing if you roll onto the gauge at Normal height, leave the wheel on the gauge, then change the car to High ride-height? It might make for a quick YT #Short.

[@micheltebraake7915]

This is useful information, never knew.

[@EVguru]

The arc of the lower suspension arm should match that of the track rod, so that there is little or no change in toe, resulting in bump steer. It may well be that at the extremes of travel, you do get some bump steer, but you shouldn't be getting significant change in toe in normal travel.

[@Nino500]

Yes, I was just going to comment that the BX is pretty good in this respect and you can see in the vid, that the inner ball joint is directly above the lower arm pivot. But there is a LOT of travel on the BX so make a bit of a difference. Try the same thing on a Triumph Dolomite (just by jacking up and down obvs.) and you'll get a bit of a shock. The pivots are so badly placed that it'll toe in about 50mm when jacked up to the top of its travel!

[@UPnDOWN]

All true, and to be fair they've designed it pretty well knowing that the BX uses long-travel suspension. It doesn't really suffer bump steer too much, but for the purposes of a simple video it was easier to explain it like this. 1deg, at the extreme 'droop' position is actually not a lot, but the point is if you're 1deg out in normal driving, it can ruin the handling feel.

[@MrManBuzz]

Sounds like a bit of a pain to track correctly alright. Though, if they had that tool you had, they could measure the difference between normal and high and then compensate for it while they do the alignment on the high setting. Though, from my experience of places that do alightments there's no way in hell they'd go to all that extra time and effort.

[@UPnDOWN]

Too many variables to put it on high and guess, IMO. Maybe not with brand new identical cars, but 100k miles down the line with varying ride heights, tyre specs/sizes and welding repairs...lots of BXs are probably different shapes to each other now!

[@MrManBuzz]

@@UPnDOWN But if you used that tool you have to measure the toe, and calculated it from there, it'd be reasonably accurate wouldn't it? I know you'd have to do it on every BX, but still.

[@UPnDOWN]

If you took a pool of 100 cars with various wheel/tyre/ride height combos and then drew an average from those it'd give you something to work from, yes. Or you just do it at the right height haha!

[@davidwarren1315]

I used to track bx's with the super tracker by angling the rear flags backwards and I made a purchase of a short 13mm spanner to adjust the steering rack

[@marksntl7632]

Very Interesting! In total agreement with you on this subject!

[@johnwaga3702]

Very informative and amusing!

[@joopjansen9102]

Very informative, Rich!

[@stefencooke]

Didn't know that you had a SM

[@UPnDOWN]

This comment is going to appear in a future video, and there's nothing you can do to stop it 😆

[@stefencooke]

@@UPnDOWN fine lol

[@Wired_Mike]

Thank you! I've not got my bx now but I'm sure when I get around to even tinkering with my four sorned xantias, one v6, two activae and a td, I'll be thinking of this vid. Cheers, nice one!

[@UPnDOWN]

You won't have a problem with the Xantia as the rear wheel isn't obstructed.

[@wanderingorganist]

I wd never have thought of that. But so obvious once pointed out. Nice one. (BTW haircut makes you look younger.)

[@UPnDOWN]

Nearly 40 now, so I'll take that!

[@torresalex]

That's a very nice BX there. Reminds me of my own 1991 16 TZS that I miss so much

[@UPnDOWN]

16TZS is a rare one these days.

[@tomicarr90]

Interesting stuff, do love the way you explain stuff! Is that an SM in the background by the way?!?

[@MrManBuzz]

Must've been an optical illusion. If he had an SM I'm sure he would've told us about it by now.

[@UPnDOWN]

Why, yes it is! Well spotted.

[@murraygnz]

Very informative, and quite shocking how much difference setting it on high makes. My 2010 C5 Hydractive 3+ was aligned while set on High, and the results were terrifying. It was actually scary to drive on wet slushy surfaces. Realized I should NOT have told the garage (as I usually do) to put it on high and loosen the reservoir cap if they were putting it on a hoist. Forgot that alignment is done on a four-poster. Once redone, the car has been perfect and wear even. Had one more thought though, .. when the ignition is switched on the front of the car raises up slightly. Should the alignment therefore be done with the ignition on, or is the difference negligible ?? (In New Zealand, we theoretically never get to 110 kph, which is when the front lowers itself again.)

[@UPnDOWN]

Same with the 'CBX' car that was in recently - had been tracked on high (I assume, as it was MILES out!) The C6 does the same thing as the C5 with the key position, so when I did the C6 I did it with the engine running. My logic is that if the car lower slightly when the speed climbs (motorways etc) that Citroen would have factored this in. A smidge of toe-in can help stability, so I suspect it does toe-in a little more when it drops.

[@cme2cau]

As a fellow Hydractive3+ C5 owner, I have some sympathy with the tyre shops. Put it on high to fit the tyres, then on normal to align it! You have to pick tyre shops with care.

[@adventuresinrust1644]

According to citroen the hydractive c5 x7 should be set with ignition on (or engine running if it drops into economy mode quickly). The difference between ign on and off is surprisingly large for a small amount of travel on the suspension.