On the Worship of Saints (Augsburg Confession XXI)

[@caleboswaltguitar]

I find a channels like Pints with Aquinas do a good job of hiding questionable practices and interpretations within catholic doctrine. Tradition and order are very appealing to me, especially while I'm trying to escape my rock and roll evangelical church. Guys like Matt Fradd almost have me hooked, that is, until I deeply dig into catholic soteriology

[@dave1370]

Well stated.

[@colinjames7765]

The Lutheran church is Catholic and evangelical. Frankly it’s what a lot of people are looking for when fleeing a modern evangelical church. The customs and practice of the ancient church tied to biblical truth and the Gospel

[@charliek2557]

They do a “good job of hiding questionable practices and interpretations within catholic doctrine”? 1) Do you have evidence they are purposefully hiding things? I think they’ve been pretty open about Catholic doctrine. 2) Has it occurred to you that they are not hiding things but: a) his guests don’t always teach Catholic doctrine perfectly b) Fradd himself is not a trained theologian but more of an evangelist c) because of the evangelistic nature of PWA, the lowest bar is often presented to accommodate those outside of Catholicism so as to “reason together”, that commonalities may be found, which oftentimes can sound like dumbing things down at times (maybe this has gone too far at times?). 3) I’ve heard Catholic soteriology defined by a number of Catholic apologists in various ways. Some definitions given emphasize grace more, some emphasize “faith working through love” more, and some emphasize the sacraments more. I think sometimes the reason it sounds like people are trying to “hide” Catholic soteriology is because sometimes Catholics will try to emphasize the part of soteriology that best helps their audience understand the area they need explained, and thus the reason for the appearance of trying to “hide” a full orbed treatment of Catholic soteriology. Perhaps this is an area all Catholic apologists and theologians could work to be clearer on. PWA has some episodes that go somewhat in depth on Catholic Theology, but it’s more about laid back interviews with a variety of guests with very different backgrounds and specialties. If you’re looking for more in depth treatment of Catholic doctrine, reading PRIMARY SOURCE Catholic theology is going to be the way to go. If you have time constraints, KZbin Channels Reason and Theology and Scholastic Answers go deeper in theology. Also KZbin Called to Communion with David Anders and even Catholic Answers are both very good as they are apologetic focused 100% of the time.

[@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool]

Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". . .

[@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool]

And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19 :) .

[@thinkforchrist]

Jordan, I love what you are doing here. You model the kind of thoughtful and reflective faith that is so desperately needed in the Evangelical Church today. I recently started my own channel to serve a similar purpose. Keep it up brother.

[@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool]

Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". . :)

[@karlkunze7172]

In response to this short video, here is a few excerpts from the article, by Neal Behm, entitled: "Speaking The Truth In Love To Catholics." Neal Behm is a teacher in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. The church today is fortunate that the early church fathers dealt with such heresies and came up with the term “hypostatic union” to properly define the two natures of Christ. Yet the ancient church fathers did not have the liberty to use such a term in the early centuries of Christianity because it wouldn’t have worked. "No such doctrine existed in the first century." The reason I have chosen my topic is to help lay people and pastors to get past that view about Catholics. We have books such as Speaking the Truth in Love to Muslims, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, but we don’t have one for Catholics. The Pseudepigrapha refers to books written after 100 AD. People wrote these books and falsely used a name of an apostle to give their work more credence. One of the things that led to the elevation of Mary in early religious thought was the New Testament Pseudepigrapha, specifically the Proto-Gospel of James. The writings[of the Pseudepigrapha] are another important window for discovering the ethos of early Christian people as well as their disposition to create imaginative theological ways of probing what was left unsaid about the persons who surrounded Jesus. The Proto-Gospel of James introduces new teachings about Mary that are not found in the Bible. The origins of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, the belief that Mary was born without original sin, can be seen here. In the Magnificat, Catholics have elevated the song not only to be a song of praise to God but also to be a song of praise to Mary. On the contrary, Luther said that Mary only sang this song of praise for God. “Mary indicate[d] what her hymn of praise is to be about, namely, the great works and deeds of God, for the strengthening of our faith, for the comforting of all those of low degree…for she sang it not for herself alone but for us all, to sing it after her.” Also: “She does not say, ‘My soul magnifies itself’ or ‘exalts me.’ She does not desire herself to be esteemed; she magnifies God alone and gives all glory to him.”Luther showed how Mary was not full of grace as in someone who deserved to receive this blessing from God. Rather she was full of grace because God has blessed her. “Thus what the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God…You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor…But we can use the Hail Mary as a mediation in which we recite what grace God has given her.” Luther said When God’s Word had been silenced such a host of un-Christian fables and lies were introduced…all of the festivals of saints are to be discontinued…The festivals of the Purification and Annunciation of Mary may be continued, and for the time being also her Assumption and Nativity, although the songs in them are not pure. The Four Official Doctrines About Mary In The Roman Catholic Church are The Immaculate Conception (Celebrates Mary’s conception), Mary’s nativity (Celebrates Mary’s birth), the Assumption (Celebrates the bodily ascension of Mary), the Annunciation (celebrates the angel Gabriel’s message to Mary that she is pregnant with Jesus - Luke 1:26-38 ). The Visitation celebrates Mary visiting Elizabeth (Luke 1:39-56). Her Purification celebrates when Mary and Joseph bring Jesus to the temple (Luke 2:22-40). The doctrines about Mary’s Immaculate Conception and her Assumption are not found in Scripture. The Immaculate Conception, the belief that Mary was without original and actual sin, is contrary to Scripture. The Assumption, the belief that Mary ascended to heaven, could be true since Scripture describes Enoch and Elijah ascending to heaven. Yet Scripture is silent about what happened to Mary. However, parts of the Assumption are contrary to Scripture since Catholics believe Mary ascended to heaven in order to defend us. Some people view Mary as the co redeemer and co-mediator. So far the Roman Catholic Church has not made this an official teaching and does not condemn those who do not believe this, but that could change in the future. The deceased Pope John Paul II was a huge proponent of Mary as the co mediator. On March 25, 1987 he wrote an encyclical called Redemptoris Mater, Latin for Mother of the Redeemer. In this encyclical he wrote, Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs, and sufferings. She puts herself “in the middle,” that is to say she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider. She knows she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she “has the right” to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary “intercedes” for mankind. Not only does the Roman Catholic Church just have four official doctrines about Mary, according to their teachings they do not worship Mary at all. The following beliefs were around for centuries before they were officially adopted by Catholic theologians. First, there is latria which is adoration only reserved for God. Second is dulia or veneration which is only for angels and saints. The third is hyperdulia or hyperveneration which is only reserved for Mary. Although Roman Catholics make these distinctions about devotion, there are countless problems with these distinctions. “While in theory these categories are intended to prevent idolatrous worship of created beings, in practice they have little effect on the religious feelings of the masses.” Most lay Catholics do not understand these different forms of devotion, and in the end they do end up worshiping Mary in an idolatrous way. Luther took advantage of the different worship services that focused on Mary in order to instruct and educate the people on how to view Mary properly.

[@aperson4057]

Hello Dr. Cooper. What do you think of an argument that praying to departed saints could be considered necromancy? Scripture has a strong prohibition to necromancy, and necromancy is simply defined as making contact with the dead. The argument that Catholics will respond with is that since the saints are in Christ, they're not really dead. However, it seems that even Jews (of which many believed in an afterlife) defined dead as being physically dead. This is consistent with the biblical prohibitions and so can translate today to seeking and speaking to dead saints.

[@georgefantazia1274]

im not christian but i enjoy your channel

[@Charlllot]

May God bless you and draw you into His Kingdom 😊🙏

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

What is enjoyable to a non-Christian in a channel about different church doctrines?

[@fernandoperez8587]

May God bless you and reveal Himself to you

[@collettewhitney2141]

@dr Jordan Cooper Another enlighten content every thought provoking material to think over and very educational God bless you brother. Looking forward to seeing your next video 🙏

[@edwardluth7740]

No worshipping of Saints. However as a very traditional Luther Lutheran oh the old LCMS, I do believe the Saints keep watching and ask how long and do pray for us along with my dear beloved Grandmother and Great Aunt and others. We pray directly to The Holy Trinity only.

[@Mygoalwogel]

You have to believe that to participate in Lutheran liturgy. "Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify Your glorious Name."

[@Liminalplace1]

@@Mygoalwogel as an Anglican we say the same in liturgy, but no one is thinking that

[@Mygoalwogel]

@@Liminalplace1 Really? I was taught from a young age that the angels and people in heaven are praying for us and worshipping with us. I've always pictured Grandpa walking (Never bowing. My imagination is too protestant, I guess.) with Jesus and reminding him to help me.

[@Liminalplace1]

@@Mygoalwogel Hebrew 11 says we have a great cloud of witnesses, scripture is silent about any prayers made in heaven. I just see the liturgy as creating the heavenly picture (as in a poem) that's all.

[@Mygoalwogel]

@@Liminalplace1 I agree that the perpetual praise of the seraphim in Isaiah and the prayers of the martyrs in Rev 6 translate better to what the liturgy says than to my wishful fantasy. I can't agree that the liturgy is poetic fiction. That would violate Lex orandi, lex credendi.

[@gagegarlinghouse258]

I am going to consider you citing Christ the King as you being on my side then, lol. Great video Doctor. I always enjoy the AC series.

[@alpha4IV]

(At least in English in the US) Tan Publishing puts out many prayer books, devotionals, and Novenas that are questionable of rather they cross the bounds of acceptable Catholic practice or not. Just in the same way you can get an “edgy” priest or bishop to sign off on an imprimatur or a nihil obstat. Just as you can have Eckhart or Kierkegaard along the the Reformers or Doctors of the Faith, and you can have Origen at the base of the tree of the Apostolic Church Fathers, and you can have Gnostic text like the Gospel of Thomas along side the synoptic Gospels. That does not delegitimatize the Gospels, or the Church Fathers, or (in your case) Historical Protestantism. The Line, the rule still holds, in The Catholic Church you can not worship a saint nor the BV Mary, and be in communion or in good standing within the Catholic Church. You can make all the accusation that we (Catholics, Orthodox, & Coptics) all cross that line at an individual or corporate level at some point or another but that doesn’t change the fact that the line and distinction is there. In Trent, directly following their break to address the consequences/scandal/controversy/war that resulted from the AC they (TCoT) & then later Vatican One do directly address these concerns and make the punishments for the professing Catholic who knowingly & purposely cross that line Harsh. Not just Anathema on paper, but legal corporal, temporal punishments including excommunication in the Medieval sense. (I’ve been doing a study through these three texts on my channel, so I’m not being defensive or talking hot air.) It is addressed by the council and the counter reformation.

[@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533]

If there is no sadness in heaven, could the saints really know we are struggling on earth?. I know in Revelation they seem to know about martyrdom, but found they actually know my personal problems?

[@tookie36]

Jesus shows that god loves creation. He showed that he suffers with us when we suffer. God’s creation is heaven and earth. They are connected. The saints aren’t omnipotent but they in communion with God. And god is reaching out with love and grace to us and so are the saints. Jesus shows us what all powerful and all loving looks like. God, the heavens, angels, saints are all reaching out in love for us. We should reach out to them and not the temporary goods presented to us

[@tylerstewart7699]

What do you think about this quote? "We should seek the intercessions and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special 'boldness' (parresia), before God." - Saint John Chrysostom

[@Mygoalwogel]

No mention of whether these saints are alive or dead. This quote appears exactly as you've pasted it, parentheses and single quotation marks and all, on many websites. No citation at all. This quotation does not appear in the works of St. Chrysostom archived on New Advent. So what I think is I want a citation so I can read the complete letter/sermon to determine what he means. If you can't provide that, then I charge you with quote mining like the worst sort of protestant.

[@tylerstewart7699]

@@Mygoalwogel I was hoping someone would know because I can't find a citation for it either

[@tylerstewart7699]

I can find similar quotes that do have citations though.

[@tylerstewart7699]

Here's the Saint John Chrysostom quote I found that did have a citation: “He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead” (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

[@Mygoalwogel]

@@tylerstewart7699 Thanks for the citation and for more than satisfying my challenge to you. You've earned respect. The Golden Tongued is not here *prescribing* anything. He's *describing* "the zeal of those who frequent [the tombs of martyrs and Apostles]." Our Confession does not expressly forbid such _individual_ devotion as these kings offer. The Defense of the Augsburg Confession (Article XXI, Of the Invocation of Saints) clarifies our position in such regards.*"Although also this new invocation in the Church is dissimilar to the invocation of individuals.* Again, the adversaries not only require invocation in the worship of the saints, but also apply the merits of the saints to others, and make of the saints not only intercessors, but also propitiators. This is in no way to be endured." In other words, individuals may express their devotion in ways that make me personally uncomfortable, but I am forbidden to judge. What we Lutherans are forbidden to do is institute the invocation or propitiation of saints into the public, liturgical, divine service, i.e. require it. This makes good sense in light of the "Lex orandi, lex credendi" principle. If we cannot say "Credo", we must not say "Dona." For example, if you pray, "O Lady, save me in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices" (Bonaventure's Psalter), you are open to charges that you _believe_ that the Blessed Virgin saves you in her name and delivers you from your injustices. If a sect *requires* such prayers in publicly liturgy, outsiders are justified in calling it polytheist, having more than one Lord and Savior.

[@MortenBendiksen]

Reading Dante, purgatory seems as a beautiful pilgrimage that to me seems like necessarily something like what dying as a faithful must be, as persons can't just be instantly changed, and still be who they are, nor are any of us able to actually join most of our brothers and sisters in eternity when we die it seems. Is that vision of Dante in any way compatible with the actual RC view of what goes on? Or is this vision of Dante perhaps a perspective on the actual truth that then the corrupt church used for their own purposes? To me the purgatorial aspect seems to already be part of our souls right now, so I don't think of it as a sort of after death thing, nor do I of hell. They are instead how we deal with things, either through escape, blame, hate and defensiveness (hell) or by actively seeking the good and beautiful in everything, forgiving, loving repenting (purgatorial). Time and thus life here seems to me a projection of these realities, and not something these realities exist within and bound by. Dante is so popular, especially in RC circles, and yet their doctrines seem so at odds with his visions, having indulgences and all that, that something more must be going on than the official Rome doctrines. Perhaps the heart of the RC isn't defined by Rome at all, and Rome is just allowed to exist as a sort of honey pot for the corrupt?

[@magnobraga4619]

Somewhere on Internet I Heard from Catholic Academic about invocarion of Mary came from heterodox groups. I think in the east. Maybe syriac / assyrian language.

[@Mygoalwogel]

That would be really bizzare if true. The Assyrian Church of the East are not Nestorian. But they were the first Church in history to caution against frivolous innovation in liturgy regarding the Blessed Virgin.

[@obscuredictionary3263]

I don’t think this has much backing behind it. Maybe extremes veneration for her came from heterodox groups but she was always venerated and viewed highly.

[@magnobraga4619]

@@obscuredictionary3263 that develop. But he was talking about that in context of patristic. There is a BC and AM in the fathers. And others feminine figures were Very generate too. Magdalene, Tecla, etc.

[@savedbygrace8337]

Praying to the “saints” Is attributing the characteristics of Omnipresence and Omnipotence characteristics of GOD and GOD ALONE.

[@tookie36]

The saints are in communion with god. God/saints are reaching out to us to help us at all times.

[@joshuanolllong]

Great video! Even though this video was directed against the RCC's teaching of the saints intercession, I've been struggling a lot with this idea as I've been debating whether I should convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, and this video has helped (along with that 4 part playlist on this issue you mentioned). There is another idea that I would your input on, penal substitutionary atonement, and whether it's actually Biblical, b/c if it isn't, how can I, a Protestant, stay Protestant?

[@TheologyNerd777]

Mike Winger does a multi part video series on PSA. The atonement is multi faceted and the church fathers used terms of recapitulation, substitution, satisfaction, ransom, moral example, penal language, healing physician language etc. All are found in Scripture and used for a more complete understanding of the atonement. Over emphasis of any one area is the problem. I would say look into the Anglican church if you want the ancient church without the idolatry. The apologists for EO and RC may sound good, but the reality of their beliefs and practices are another thing. They are not found in the first several centuries of Christianity. Read "Akathist to the Most Holy Theotokos" and Palamas' "Dormition of the Theotokos." If you agree with that level of Marian "veneration" so be it. I could not. I would be happy to discuss with you anytime.

[@hjc1402]

Joshua Noll-Long Read the letter to Philemon. I’ve heard many people wonder why this short, seemingly meaningless, letter is in the Bible. It was in the context of a discussion with a Muslim that I heard a Christian point out how this letter actually encapsulates the whole good news of Jesus, including substitutionary atonement. Please take a minute to read it, it really will only take a minute. Now reread verses 17-19. Paul is truly demonstrating the heart of Christ here. Paul is offering a penal substitutionary atonement for Onesimus to Philemon. It perfectly mirrors what Christ does for us. Jesus meets us as we are slaves to another but in meeting him we are set free. Jesus sends us to the Father. The Father receives us as He receives Jesus- blameless, righteous, as His children. We would have been received and sent to death for our sins (Rom. 6: 23). Jesus was sent to death in our place. All of our wrongdoings and debts to God are charged to Jesus’ account instead. He pays the debt on our behalf- Colossians 2: 13-14, 1 Corinthians 6: 19-20. God no longer counts our trespasses against us, we are now reconciled to Him (2 Cor. 5: 18-21). One of the most clear passages about the penal substitutionary atonement is Isaiah 53, specifically verses 4-6 and 10-12. Jesus substituted himself for us. He takes the punishment for us. This atones for our sins so we can be reconciled to God. In substituting himself for us, not only does he take responsibility for our sins, but we are received as if we are Christ. Check out these links that give the meaning of penal substitutionary atonement or vicarious atonement and a thorough look at the Bible to see what it says on the matter. www.gotquestions.org/substitutionary-atonement.html www.gotquestions.org/penal-substitution.html www.gotquestions.org/vicarious-atonement.html www.gotquestions.org/how-does-God-see-me.html

[@moiseybeliy5458]

I would _highly_ recommend watching some of the videos on Joshua Schooping's channel. He is a former Eastern Orthodox priest who is now a Protestant pastor. He will outline _many_ problems with Eastern Orthodoxy, regarding theological and ecclesiological matters that they simply do not tell anyone who is looking to convert (issues ranging from problematic to horrifyingly idolatrous and un-Christian). I say all of this as a former Eastern Orthodox convert who, upon learning the actual deeper doctrine and theology and decrees of Eastern Orthodoxy, and upon reading the first 300 years of church father writings fully and in context on my own, _promptly_ left Eastern Orthodoxy and returned to the Gospel. I feel so horrible for having dragged my family through all of that, and introduced them to such practices and doctrines of men contrary to the Gospel, and have since repented. It is truly a source of shame for me. As for penal substitutionary atonement, it truly is _all over_ the church father writings, since essentially the very beginning of the church. It may sound like I am being hyperbolic, but I am not when I say that is simply a lie when modern Eastern Orthodox claim that penal substitutionary atonement is some new, false innovation. It is not, at all. It was believed throughout all of church history (as well as being spoken of plainly several times in Scripture). To say that PSA is the only aspect of the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection is not necessarily accurate, but it absolutely is, and always has been, true Christian doctrine.

[@pete3397]

Jack Kilcrease has a good Lutheran overview of the doctrine(s) of the Atonement which amounts to a defense of penal substitutionary atonement against certain modern views.

[@TheologyNerd777]

@@moiseybeliy5458 I would be very interested to hear about your journey sometime.

[@joelhaas765]

As a self-identified “Anglo-Catholic” I have explored all sides of this issue and largely agree with what is said here. In my experience, the Eastern Orthodox do a much better job of distinguishing dulia and hyper-dulia from latria as compared to Rome (either modern day or circa 1500 AD). In my experience there are large swaths of Roman Catholics, especially in Latin America, who do in fact, worship Mary. I feel that this is due to poor catechesis resulting from institutional problems within the Roman church. This is one reason that I haven’t “swam the Tiber.” Anglicanism, especially “Anglo-Catholicism”, is generally more tolerant of veneration of the Saints than Lutheranism is, but we are still technically a “Sola Gratia, Sola Fide” tradition. Granted “the prayers of a righteous man availeth much”, etc. but if we can’t approach God directly as we do in the Lord’s Prayer/Our Father and Jesus Prayer then perhaps there is a faith issue. Rome ultimately de-emphasizes faith (especially by suggesting officially or un-officially that non-Christians “invincibly ignorant” and/or “of good will” can be saved) and that is why I personally can never of good conscience become Roman Catholic. Ultimately, I believe that Luther was correct when he said that justification by faith is basically the cornerstone by which the church stands or falls… It has just taken about five centuries for this to be realized.

[@Mygoalwogel]

I'm still curious to clearly know a distinction between hyperdulia and latria in Eastern Christianity. Historically, the Assyrian Church of the East first objected to exaggerated veneration of the Blessed Virgin in the East long before Huss, Luther, or Cranmer objected in the West. Recently, I'm playing with the idea that 'Lex orandi, lex credendi' is a helpful rule for determining if a public liturgical prayer strays too far. I've summarized this into the following syllogism: Major Premise: Lex orandi, lex credendi. Minor Premise: *Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* _On the awesome day of judgment, save me from eternal punishment and make me an inheritor of the ineffable glory of your Son, our God_ Conclusion: Orthodox believe and publicly confess that Mary saves them from eternal punishment on the Day of Judgment. So far, the worst replies to this syllogism have been along the lines, 'Of course we don't believe that. You are ignorant and spiteful.' The best reply I've read is that I may have a fallacy in my understanding of Lex orandi, lex credendi. The literal meaning of the words of the Compline prayer today may not be the literal meaning of the words at the time of its composition. I'd like to know what the literal meaning was at that time.

[@joelhaas765]

Various Orthodox will seem to pray very directly to Mary-i.e. "Theotokos, save us!" but what they really mean is that they are asking Mary to save them through her intercessions. They will compare this to the way Paul and the apostles "save" people through prayer, preaching, etc. in the new Testament. At least this is the way that Orthodox clergy explain it. I'm sure that on some level the same "errors of Rome" go on and Mary is essentially worshipped by some but than again Orthodox aren't afraid to reach out to God directly in other areas of their prayer life, e.g. the Jesus Prayer. Although the title "Mother of God" as opposed to "Mother of Christ" supposedly led to the separation of the Assyrian Church, it is my understanding that the Assyrian Church does indeed venerate Mary, at least in modern times. In my experience Orthodox will interchangeably refer to Mary as "Theotokos"-God bearer- or Mother of God.

[@joelhaas765]

I should also mention that in Orthodox theology (as within the RC tradition also), Mary is an icon of the Church. So in a certain sense by invoking Mary you are asking for the prayers of the Church. Orthodoxy can, just like Roman Catholicism, make Mary the meek and mild intercessor and Jesus the angry judge. This is apparent in Orthodox accounts of the lives of the Saints, especially St. Catherine of Alexandria. While this is clearly something that Luther and the other reformers were (in my opinion rightly) trying to curb, many modern "progressive" (liberal) Christians might do better to think of the fearsome judge side of Jesus more often... especially when condoning practices conflicting with the plain writ of scripture and nearly 2000 years of consistent church teachings..

[@Mygoalwogel]

@@joelhaas765 Thanks for your replies and for your parent comment. All good things to keep in mind. Confessional Lutheranism or Classical Anglicanism are as "progressive" as I care to be. I think there's real value in the Roman and Eastern traditions. But I'm finding it easier to get accurate, reasonable information about them from unbiased non-members like you than from their adherents and apologists.

[@joelhaas765]

@@Mygoalwogel You bet, thanks for the kind words. I took a very serious look at both Rome and the East as alternatives to conservative Anglicanism when I was looking for more "universal" churches with more vibrant, younger membership a few years ago. I have attended several Orthodox liturgies and have spoken in person with priests, and other clergy, who I would consider personal friends. My sister converted to Eastern Orthodoxy about two years ago. I've attended Catholic masses. Nearly two years ago, I moved to a town that was nearly two hours from the nearest "orthodox" Anglican parish. I ended up attending a LCMS church as this was theologically the closest thing to Anglicanism (in my opinion at least) and because I was baptized as LCMS. My recently converted Orthodox and Catholic friends will somewhat rhetorically ask me why I'm not part of their churches based on my knowledge of their theology and church history. Inwardly, my answer would be the doctrine of justification by faith (alone) based on Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3 based on personal experiences of my own life. Ultimately, I don't believe that any one denomination of Christianity is "The Church" but rather all denominations are part of the Church as long as they keep the Bible, creeds, etc. I'm not saying that all denominations are necessarily equally valid, though, as I personally believe that conservative/traditional Anglicanism and confessional Lutheranism are the best modern reflections of the early Church, or at least the Church in the late patristic era.

[@tookie36]

44:33 the major problem of this whole debate. You obscure Christ by the constant use of antibiotics in the body of Christ. People take everything away and are left with an idea in the mind of what Christ is instead of the direct reality which is composed of the saints

[@ATrustedAuthority]

I wanted to make a one time donation to you. I have been helped in my understanding of Lutheran Doctrine vs Catholic and Baptists. A lot of questions answered. I firmly believe if you benefit from someone's work, it should be paid for. But as I do not intend to go much further, I don't want a monthly patreon subscription. How do I make a one time donation?

[@lukasbeier8338]

Dr Cooper, I am wondering what the AALC’s views on evolution and the age of the earth are. Are AALC members able to accept theistic evolution? Thank you and may God continue to bless your ministry

[@Mygoalwogel]

He has a video explaining why he won't make a video to try to answer that question. Even LCMS lay members are "allowed to accept" theistic evolution. The restriction is that pastors are not to teach it. I don't really want my pastor to get into biology, anyway. I want him to preach the text on its own terms.

[@dave1370]

Darwinian Evolution is terrible science, for starters.

[@Mygoalwogel]

@@dave1370 St. Ephraim the Syrian responded to terrible Manichean "science" in his literal interpretation of Genesis. They believed sticks and rocks could turn into snakes and turtles spontaneously. They reasoned that this proved that the demiurge (false god) is an arranger rather than a creator. St. Ephraim showed that "Let the earth bring forth creatures of every kind" refutes this foolishness _even if_ the theory were proven, which, of course, wasn't.

[@GK-ku8yj]

@@Mygoalwogel I believe the creation story, but man oh man... there must have been some major morphing after the fall/flood to get some of the vicious venomous and murderous creatures and insects that exist today. Or just look up the parasite leucochloridium. Wowza. Did God create that to zombify its host and then to reproduce inside birds? Since it's obvious there's been "some changes" happening over time, whatever you believe, have humans morphed much from their original form?

[@Mygoalwogel]

@@GK-ku8yj My point was not to defend Ken Hamism or anything. I just mean the Early Church had a number of honest ways to read and preach Genesis, both literally and spiritually. So we don't need to excommunicate Christians who believe fully in the 21st century mainstream understanding of evolution. I don't really have an opinion on the relationship between apparently cruel animal behavior and the fall. I do find your question, "have humans morphed much from their original form", quite interesting. The mainstream biology community silenced all creationist voices of every stripe in the early 2000s. After that, they began plainly admitting that all early to modern humans are objectively different from all extinct apes. Modern humans reproduced successfully with Denisovans and Neanderthals beyond reasonable doubt. There's good but less certain evidence that they interbred with Homo erectus and Homo habilis. This being the case, biologists either need to admit that all of these breeds are the same species or change their definition of species. It shouldn't be controversial to say they're the same species. A malamute and a chihuahua look completely different, but they're the same species, different breed. So why not Neanderthal and modern human? Christians can safely assume Christ died for all breeds of human and not worry about defending the Bible's insistence that humans are different from animals.

[@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533]

I don’t think baptizing believers with the immersion method is radical. Anabaptists and Baptists just baptize like John the Baptist did.

[@kjhg323]

Interestingly, Luther agrees with the idea that there are finite punishments for sin for Christians (though his understanding is different from the medieval Roman perspective): "I have not denied that there is such a thing as penalty, or satisfaction, for sin. I say that there is such a thing, but that it cannot be remitted. That which is remitted has been devised by men without the authority of Scripture. Therefore I hate the word 'satisfaction,' and wish it had never come into existence. The Scriptures call it 'penalty' and 'chastisement' for sin. No one can make satisfaction to God for daily sins, but he can be punished for all his sins, either graciously in this life, or wrathfully to all eternity." (Argument in defense of articles wrongly condemned; article 5) "But God is nearly always satisfied with a contrite heart and with the punishment of the third type ["The third punishment is that voluntary and evangelical punishment which is put into effect by spiritual penance in accordance with I Cor. 11"]" (Explanation of 95 theses, thesis 5) "For when a man through the remission of guilt... has found peace through the acceptance of faith in absolution, every punishment is to him as no punishment at all. For anxiety of conscience makes the punishment harmful, but cheerfulness of conscience makes punishment desirable." (Explanation of 95 theses, thesis 7)

[@savedbygrace8337]

A saint is one who is sanctified,saved by the blood of JESUS ! IT IS NOT AN APPOINTED OFFICE. Paul used it as a salutation 2 Corinthians 13:13 “All the saints salute you.” on his letters To the early CHRISTIAN churches . I.e. Philippians 4:22 “All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.”

[@hcantarero]

First!

[@Charlllot]

Unrelated question: Is there a symbolic reason you haven't shaved your beard since your children were born? Or is that just how your style has been throughout your children's lives?

[@troyschuler186]

Protestants exhaust me with stuff like this.

[@Mygoalwogel]

Protestants exhaust you by explaining their historical documents?

[@kevinmc62]

Will Lutheranism survive woke? Every other major Protestant brand has nearly worked their way into irrelevance.

[@Mygoalwogel]

Woke isn't killing us. We're becoming more isolationist than I'd like.

[@Dlee-eo5vv]

Just a reminder, the Saints are not of your church nor protestant.

[@j.g.4942]

I suppose St Ansgar, St Sigfrid, St Bruno, St Brigit, St Canute, St Olaf, and others of northern Europe (the 'Lutheran' lands) were defeated by the gates of hell then? Or surrendered to demonic powers for around 500-1000 years?

[@Dlee-eo5vv]

@J. G. ultimately, Saints are God's purview given to the Church. The East doesn't recognize any as reflecting Christ after 1054 for obvious reasons.

[@j.g.4942]

@@Dlee-eo5vv so we can still claim the Nordic and Baltic saints, and the German mystics from whom we come? Just not that "we teach nothing new", and we should resubmit to our historical bishop in Rome?

[@Dlee-eo5vv]

@J. G. Short answer, obey the oc and counsels.

[@j.g.4942]

@@Dlee-eo5vv cool, already obey the northern Germanic orthodox church in Australia, the ecumenical councils and our local councils.

[@johnnyg.5499]

Come on, Jordan. At 3.33 you give the CORRECT teaching on veneration of Mary and the Saints. I'm a Catholic who has listened to you for years and profited greatly from you presentations. But when I saw the title of this talk, I was stunned. HISTORY (warts and all) can't be changed by Catholics or any other branches of the the Christian church. So don't play the cheap trick of giving FALSE titles to your talks.......you above that sort of thing!!

[@Mygoalwogel]

The literal title of Augsburg Confession Article XXI is _"On the Worship of Saints"._

[@michaeljefferies2444]

The most common “prayer” to the saints, is “St. So-and-So, pray for us”

[@savedbygrace8337]

Saint so and so cannot hear you Because he or she is dead !

[@michaeljefferies2444]

@@savedbygrace8337 Scripture teaches us that they are alive with Christ, so I don't think that's a fair critique. Dr. Cooper also affirms that this is a fair distinction in the video. I commented what I commented because he said that if prayer to the saints was something as simple saying, "St. Francis, pray for me", he probably wouldn't have such a big problem with it. That is the most common prayer, and the fundamental structure behind all intercessory requests offered to the saints, regardless of any flowery language that is added.

[@savedbygrace8337]

@@michaeljefferies2444 catholic propaganda to the core.

[@savedbygrace8337]

@@michaeljefferies2444 did you know that Catholics have a patron Saint of computers? His name is saint isadore of Seville. And his feast day is April fourth.

[@savedbygrace8337]

@@michaeljefferies2444 oh!there bringing out the big guns !

[@stormchaser9738]

Why would you title this video “on the worship of saints” when in the description you use the correct term “veneration.” I’ve watched a lot of content and really appreciate your work, but this title seems needlessly confusing/inflammatory.

[@vngelicath1580]

Because that's the title of the article in the Augsburg Confession (Article XXI), he explains this at the beginning of the video.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Right, these are all just the titles of the articles as contained in the Augsburg Confession.

[@lesliepage5154]

@@DrJordanBCooper Are you going to do an exposition of the Apology?

[@MrPeach1]

I guess the document itself was written by a man trying to strawman the Catholic position...

[@stormchaser9738]

I’m sorry Dr. Cooper, that’s my fault. I take full responsibility for the mistake. God Bless you sir

[@JA-in3hw]

Christian belief is wretched. The fact yall cant see how horrible your doctrines are with hell is something else. Must be fear on your part.

[@jeremygr82]

What religion are you ?

[@dave1370]

Horrible based upon what reference point?

[@JA-in3hw]

How bout this. I’m in constant pain right now till the day I die. Ruined spinal cord. I know what it does to you. I don’t care what half ass justification you tell yourself to sweep it away. Hell is an evil doctrine and it’s disgusting you even reply like that but it’s expected. There is no good answer why a god needs to reconstitute someone and burn them forever. It’s just evil and if you can’t see that you’re either sick or just so afraid of it that you have to justify it and hold your nose and carry on like you aren’t disgusting calling it love when some god plans to torture 90% of the population for getting an esoteric philosophical question wrong. I’m sorry you can’t see that

[@JA-in3hw]

Take a look in the mirror if that’s really your response. You’re a human being. I don’t need to explain to you why eternal burning of most everyone who’s ever been born is the most vile thought to enter religious thinking. Shows how man made it is. The vile anger at everyone else. Waiting for god to come kill all the people outside their little bubble. Probably resentment from being conquered. Maybe justified but it’s the petulant wrath of a man wrote that nonsense. If you can affirm such degenerate behavior then your religion has reduced your humanity significantly. Good thing you put a bow on the dung pile and say it’s all love. Seriously the way you people respond to this is always terrible. Like you’ve never actually grappled with the nonsense you espouse.

[@JA-in3hw]

That’s a good joke.