On Writing: Dragons! [ Game of Thrones l Eragon l How to Train Your Dragon l Avatar ] PART 2

[@HelloFutureMe]

I NEED A HERO. I'M HOLDING OUT FOR A HERO TO COME SUPPORT ME ON PATREON patreon.com/hellofutureme Thank you so much to all the new people who joined up to patreon and the discord (seriously, we had to get new mods to support the growing community)! You guys make this more in-depth, longer form content possible. Re: ON SAPHIRA'S EMPATHY BOND - yes, I'll admit I somewhat purposefully overlooked that to make the point on word choice. I should have at least acknowledged it, but the point still stands. ~ Tim

[@pyeitme508]

Will u make a video about The Dragon Prince Netflex series?!

[@hanenlevet3672]

If u see this can you do another video on the connection between skrills and night furys and include something from https 3

[@superthorc6894]

Hello Future Me YASS

[@pyeitme508]

Or maybe make a video about the special forces operators from real life influence the fictional ones such as the Tom Clancy's universe?

[@Mussie099]

I suppose that is fair to say about Saphira from the inheritance cycle but I would argue that her personality changed over time mainly because she never really had any other dragon to talk to or interact with except for Glaedr who keep in mind was her teacher on top of that he was not a wild dragon he was bonded and also lived for a very long time not only talking to just dragons but other riders. We don't exactly know if the dragons back then spoke and acted like dragons, or developed/learned to speak and act like humans or elves. As a side note I would not find it unreasonable to think that the same happened for the human and elf riders to develop dragon like mannerisms in return. So following this I do not find it unreasonable to think that she would develop human like speaking. As to why she would be talking the way she was in the first book, as an educated guess I would say that she was trying to be different off of instinct because she knows that she is not human, so in her mind why should she talk like them.

[@LampShadeAffair]

I don’t NEED a dragon that can shoot saxophones out of its face, but I do want one now

[@Drejzer]

I recall hearing about one that shoots drills...

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

LOL 😂 😂😂 😂

[@coobk]

Thanks to furries theres probably even weirder dragons

[@alexanderglass2057]

Coobk165[GER] I have ,on fur-affinity, come across a dragon that eats love and has cupids arrow‘s breath. So yeah you’re right.

[@coobk]

@@alexanderglass2057 well i dont want to know what you can find on e621 then

[@abeingofpureenergy]

No Tim, I *do* need a dragon that shoots saxophones out of it's face.

[@creatressanna8714]

Louis from The Princess and the Frog? I mean, he's a crocodile, but close enough.

[@MmeCShadow]

I disagree. While Saphira has difficulty interacting with Glaedr, it doesn't feel like it's a result of her bonding with Eragon and become more 'human', it feels like a result of her being young and horny and Glaedr doesn't want to deal with her shit because he's old. The book *tries* to make it sound like Saphira just doesn't know how to dragon properly by having Glaedr take her out on private lessons while Eragon is with Oromis, but even though Saphira comes back all excited about them we're never shown how it impacts her or how she realizes how disconnected from her own culture (so to speak) she ever was. We're never even explicitly shown how she's been humanized... nor how this would even make her different from Glaedr, who was bonded to elves and raised in a society composed entirely of other dragons that were also bonded to elves. This is further exacerbated by the fact that, frankly, Paolini didn't actually think about this. It's mentioned that dragons actually have some kind of ancestral memory, so Saphira just *knows* a ton of things just by being a dragon-- one would think this would include dragon instincts and learned behaviors in the process, and in fact Saphira not having been raised among dragons is *never* a point of contention again. Additionally, when we start getting Saphira-centric chapters in Brisingr, Paolini makes an attempt to distinguish her as inhuman by having her refer to various things in staccato, hyphenated descriptions-- I can't remember the specific ones but a lot of nouns are replaced with things like hoofed-beast-good-eating or similar compound words, playing at being something bestial despite, previously and subsequently, just using the word 'cow'. It really comes off as less of an intended exploration and more that the characterization was being written 'as needed' in a very surface-level attempt at addressing particular bits of criticism (Saphira's human-ness was actually something the Inheritance criticism community called out between both Eragon and Eldest) without fully understanding the criticism and, consequently, how to address it.

[@phoenixsmith7648]

never needed anything more, exept maybe the communist dragons Wait... What if we COMBINED THEM.... THE RISE OF THE COMMUNIST SAXAPHONE DRAGONS HAS BEGUN

[@BisectedBrioche]

Maybe YOU don't need a saxaphone dragon. I've never needed anything more!

[@CH-nn1nf]

syaondri yes yes Yes YEEEESSSSSSS I NEED THAT IN MY LIFE NOW. I ACCIDENTALLY KEPT CAPS LOCK ON I DON’T FEEL LIKE TURNING IT OFF.

[@Bob-lr2xp]

The great beast opens its giant maw, Careless Whisper bellowing forth and echoing across the land. Sexy times were had by all.

[@davidgasiorek4134]

I gotchu fam i.imgur.com/EZddKi3.jpg

[@kbagel32]

I would like, but I can’t change 420

[@ninjafish6185]

I can’t believe you didn’t call them Prodragonists and Andragonists. Also, i can’t believe you only skimmed over wings of fire during the Dragons as Protagonists section.

[@williamsledge3151]

Wings of Fire in my opinion has the best written dragons in fiction, and I'm really disappointed he didn't mention it more

[@tacticaldroid9189]

@@williamsledge3151 WOOOO MORE WOF FANS!!!

[@pinkajou656]

I know right!!!! MORE WOF PLEASE

[@lemieux-z8933]

@@tacticaldroid9189 ayyy WoF gang

[@violetlavender5876]

yooo more fanwings

[@Coldyham]

I agree with the inheritance cycle being derivative, but Saphira's humanness is a specific plot point. As most of the time they don't meet any other dragons, and as far as they know she's the only remaining female. The dragons bonded to humans who live among humans would become more like those humans. Her actions in front of older or wilder dragons are difficult because of this. Eragon also becomes slightly more draconic, although that is less well explored

[@cass2239]

This is what I was going to say. I'd argue it's MORE interesting how her use of language changes because it emphasises her connection with Eragon

[@liammorris9372]

I have not read the book but from your description it seems very similar to how Toothless in How to Train Your Dragon behaves. Many of his actions seem very human-like in nature as there is no other of his kind to show him how to be a Night Fury. This is shown in the trailers for The Hidden world where toothless meets the Light Fury, the two are completely different in nature. You mention they don’t meet other dragons “most of the time” implying they do occasionally. Making Saphira’s behaviour seem completely alien to wild dragons she encounters and their behaviour seeming strange to her could be a really good way to emphasise how she has become more human and less like a dragon.

[@cass2239]

@@liammorris9372 she doesn't meet other dragons until she is atleast adolescent, if not adult (although this only takes a few years if I remember- it's probably been 5 years since I've read any of them)

[@cass2239]

I can't say much for Toothless as I thoroughly enjoyed the books and have no will to ruin that memory by watching films which seem to butcher a key plot point, though I'm more than willing to allow others to enjoy them.

[@Coldyham]

@@cass2239 I enjoyed the how to train your dragon books and the films, as long as you pretend it's an entirely different ip, they're fun in their own way

[@MavenCree]

I actually would argue that Toothless doesn't belong in the beast category. He clearly understands everything that Hiccup says and is able to respond with it. The examples you used of Hiccup Dragon-Splaining... if you hit mute, you would still clearly understand what Toothless was doing by his actions and facial expressions. A mute character does not mean they can't communicate. If anything, you could say that Toothless may be smarter because he understands Hiccup's language, but Hiccup can't understand dragon speak. And it's not like a dog remembering a few previously taught commands. They are actually communicating. Look at the begining of the second movie after Toothless saves Hiccup from crashing into the rocks. Hiccup slyly is saying that Toothless needs to work on his turns. Toothless side-eyes him and throws a stone at him. That was a nuanced conversation, not a command. And Toothless understood that.

[@crkt9971]

I applaud you

[@artiedavis799]

There’s a reason for this! In the actual books for How to Train you Dragon, they actually CAN speak. They are much more similar to the western thinker type, and Hiccup not only can ride the dragons, but speak in more than commands such as “go” or something- the dragons are actually written as sassy, showing that the speech isn’t just some kind of compulsion such as “dracarys,” they have personality, and overcoming their selfish nature is a huge part of the character arc!

[@couragew6260]

MavenCree It isn't about dragons, but a good example/comparison would be from the movie "Spirit Stallion of the Cimmaron" You don't understand the horses but you get a sense of communication. The narrator of course fills in some gaps but its mostly silence, stares, neighs, etc

[@lindenlynx]

@@couragew6260 Absolutely! The relative absence of real voices for the horses is what makes _Spirit_ so artistic. It's also similar to the robots from _WALL-E._ All they say is their names and a few lines relating to EVE's programming, but you still get a sense of them as characters just as much as if they'd had dialogue.

[@princessthyemis]

Yeah!!

[@GabrielRodrigues-ro1ep]

I think you kinda missed the point of Saphira humanness. She becames more and more like a human because of her bond with a human, just as Eragon becomes less and less human-like as the series progresses. In the forth book, they have a brief talk with a wild dragon, and he is much different. He doesnt have language, and he spends most of his time immerse in a state of meditation. (I forgot his name) Ps: keep up with the good work!

[@Windrake101]

His name was Valdr .

[@bluesbest1]

That was going through my head, too. As you spend a lot of time with someone, you start to emulate them. Kids that spend a lot of time at home act like their parents/siblings because of all the exposure and mutual genetics (both nature and nurture). Saphira has no one but humans to interact with and even shares a mental bond with one. The old golden dragon (can't remember his name) probably acted a lot like an elf because for a very long time they were his only company. His situation is most likely different because Saphira's developmental time was spent only around 1-3 humans because of the genocide and secrecy, while the older dragon probably knew other dragons and was able to live openly, widening his exposure.

[@bluesbest1]

@That one friend that genuinely enjoys Rick Astley And I haven't read them since Inheritance came out, which was 8 years ago. 8 years of High School, College, and all the drama that comes with it, not to mention too many fictional stories to remember, let alone count. I also probably thought of them the same way I think if the Harry Potter series: Good reading the first time as a kid, not so good as I get older, though I wasn't nearly as invested in the Cycle as HP.

[@iainhansen1047]

Gabriel Rodrigues exactly!

[@Syphr54]

@@bluesbest1 I do not agree, I read the Cycle at least once a year since it came out and I still enjoy the story very much. The 1st book is very clearly written by a 15 year old, BUT the more you read the 1st book you'll see there is a lot of underlying thought in the story.

[@graysonbaker1744]

Let me pose a question in regard to Saphira and her lack of dragon-ness; consider, for a second, that dragons in the inheritance cycle are immensely intelligent, cultural creatures, which they are. By anthropological standards, the dragons absolutely have their own culture separate from that of elves and humans, and we discover more of this in the later books when the characters encounter an eldunari of one of the wild dragons, and this culture of theirs is thoroughly different than the other humanoid cultures. Let's compare this to existing human cultures so that we have a frame of reference; Native American cultures, for example, are vastly alien in comparison to many western European cultures. Now consider this; would a child born to two Cherokee parents (I'm using a singular tribe, just for specificity), yet raised from infancy to adulthood by Spaniards in Spain, having little to no exposure to his or her "original" culture know much, if anything about Cherokee language, practices, or idioms? No, the child wouldn't. So would a dragon, raised for a majority of her life by humans, having only met another of her kind recently and for a brief time, know much of her "native" culture? Most likely, no, which is why Saphira is more likely to use human idioms, and this goes doubly so when you take into account her empathy link with Eragon. She has literally been sharing thoughts with a human since birth-- I mean, hatching. Therefor, I say Paolini is absolutely justified in making her thoughts and actions appear human, since, culturally speaking, she is absolutely human. Notice also that Glaedr acts far less human than Saphira, and we can attribute this to his time spent with other dragons when their culture was still preserved, a luxury Saphira never had. Glaedr thinks a lot more in images and sensory impressions, rather than words, and the wild dragon they met in book 4 doesn't use words at all. Saphira isn't so much a product of her blood, so much that she's a product of her environment, which happens to be all dirty, stupid humans all the time. This would probably even be different had Eragon been an elf, and Saphira raised on the outskirts of their domain. Since culture is defined as learned behavior that persists over generations, it makes sense that Saphira would act more human than the rest of her kind.

[@epsilon3569]

You might have been right, except Paolini stated in the first book that dragons have a shared racial memory, and that Sapphira was aware within her egg.

[@isitnotwrittenthat1680]

@@epsilon3569 that's partial though, she remembers some dragon culture, which is why she doesn't act in ways that are not quite human, but was raised in human culture and exposed in her egg to elven culture, thus mostly human with inhuman undertones

[@ZackTanTYZ]

If a dolphin, cat or dog living with human intelligence while growing up and living with humans all their lives does not simply make them act or think like humans. They are still limited by their bodies and inconveniences that are usually made for real humans. For example, an intelligent dog does not see or relate to a human sitting on a chair using a fork and spoon the same way as themselves do despite them having the same intelligence as humans or living up with humans.

[@dillonkury1666]

Paolini specifically stated in eldest that the longer eragon and saphira are together the more eragon will take on her more ancient nature and saphira will become more human as time goes on as they eventually become one mind(in a sense of how they act not actually becoming one mind) so saphiras more human actions later in the last to books are explained by their empathy link growing

[@jacksonfett3808]

Yeah, and then he criticizes it for doing this thinking it's unintentional and that the writer was just being lazy.

[@TaoScribble]

The problem was that it was stated that being so closely linked took a long time; over years and years. With Eragon and Saphira it was rushed and felt all of a sudden. There was nowhere near enough build-up to it; it arguably happened overnight. So while it was intentional, it could've been done much, much better.

[@clanduncan5547]

@@TaoScribble The first book and the travel to the elves were traveled in 5-6 months and it is my understanding by the "burning planes" battle the time that has passed was another 15-20 months and by the time of the beginning of the fourth book was around 2-5 months depending on how fast the varden traveled. There is also the fact that Saphira only contact with another dragon happens in the second book and he has been with his rider and the elves for a century with no other dragons, so it seems likely that the use of dragon-like descriptions will fall off more quickly than the would of in the time of the riders. but that's my opinion.

[@blacksarlacc91]

Also don't forget the magical ritual during which Eragon gets completely healed and reaches nearly directly his final elf like form. Nobody knows for sure what this does to saphira as they share a strong bond. It might have fastened both of their evolution. So while Eragon reaches the lifespan strength and speed of the dragons saphira might have become more human like in the effects. All the people who say that Eragon does not change towards saphira tend to forget that the lifespan and other stuff like that are all derived from the dragons as even the elves got them only through the bind with the dragons...

[@williamsledge3151]

I'm so glad you mentioned Wings of Fire, it's possibly my favorite depiction of Dragons in fiction

[@anniec1403]

If I remember correctly, Eragon discussed with Saphira how her behaviour was interpreted by humans and how it made her seem more monsterous. I'm not too sure about this but there were civilians that found Saphira to be scary and dumb due to her dragon like reactions and behaviour. I believe they were both educated on more acceptable ways to react and Saphira was taught humans customs in respect so she would not offend anyone and so she knew how she could shoe her respect. I haven't read the series for a while tho

[@mandyrobbins1041]

She was actually taught things like that, when she and Eragon became basically generals in the Varden's army. They needed her to be a symbol of hope, facing the terror of Thorn (Murtagh's Dragon) and Shurikan (Galbatorix's "stolen" dragon). So she was taught the social graces to make her less frightening to the humans they freed from Galbatorix's control. At the same time, in her personal chapters (she did have PoV chapters when she was away from Eragon in Eldest and Brisingr), it still showed she viewed the world differently, had more descriptive words for the different "Two-legs" races, for the shadow form of Eragon the Elven mages sent to look after them used, etc.

[@TheMoonShepard]

How would it work if dragons were perceived as just another race like Elves, humans or dwarves by the people in a world

[@marcosamen2231]

Check out E.E. Knight's Dragon Champion.

[@potentpotassium5776]

saphara? isn't it sa-fear-a (actual pronunciation guide)

[@hiimchrisj]

There would be an inherent difference just by virtue of dragons being massive powerful flying beings. Giving them human intelligence puts them at a point where there's literally no reason for them to see human-like races as equal to them (or rather, for it to feel natural for human-like races to see THEM as equals) if they do it'd be interpreted as them being a powerful benevolent figure as opposed to just another human-like race. Otherwise you can literally make them human like in stature and power and you basically just have lizard-men.

[@infinitethunder6184]

@@potentpotassium5776 I believe so

[@johan.ohgren]

@@hiimchrisj That sounds like TES: Skyrim dragons. All humanoid races nearly ended up as slaves to the dragons. Only saved by a few brave men and a dragon that changed sides.

[@nicholasmihu3]

Have you ever read fablehaven? The dragons in that are amazing. “Dragons see us the same way we see mice, we aren’t very tasty and they’ll kill us just to keep the area tidy.”

[@epauletshark3793]

Several dragons say they enjoy the taste of humans, but that they are too bony and don't have much meat.

[@pinkajou656]

There’s a similar comparison in Wings of Fire with humans (or “scavengers” as the dragons call them) being viewed very similarly to mice. Tiny, annoying, everywhere, they steal things and eat food.

[@dimensionalapprentice1379]

Come to Patreon to become Mishka’s sacrifice maybe

[@totallynotjeff7748]

How could you have posted this so long ago?

[@nirast2561]

@@totallynotjeff7748 Patron early access.

[@alexanderglass2057]

Behold the terrible Lord Mishka using clones of her favorite citizen to bring in sacrifices and tribute. She is truly the most terrifying cat Dragon

[@potentpotassium5776]

hahaha

[@epsilon3569]

I pretty distinctly remember in the Inheritence books that it stated a dragon taking on more human mental traits over time due to the link with their Rider just as the Rider took on the long lives of a dragon as part of that bond. Two becoming one. Glaedr and Umaroth both pretty blatantly alluded to that point on various occasions.

[@maximas95]

Paolini: *Writes a book with a major plot-point being that a dragon doesn't feel connected to her ancestors because she feels too human. She's only ever been around humans(because they're nearly extinct) so has disproportionate human characteristics than any other dragon in the story's universe* Tim: I don't like it, she's too human feeling. Paolini: Am I a joke to you?

[@jollyroger6660]

Came to the comments to point this out. Thanks for letting me write less words lol

[@pineforest1442]

Eragon Silvr context matters. Seeing this comment made me be like “oh. That makes sense.”

[@kelnmiirkageoni1667]

So much agree

[@ughitstravis9243]

Yeah I agree thanks for pointing this out. It's proof of true dragon domestication. Not being overly heavy with her human prose.

[@ianclouse5738]

I always saw her early language as that of a child. Children often use incorrect but in their minds correct language, and even understandable to us in most occasions their meaning. Children at funerals often have strange ways of trying to help and sometimes it's beautiful how their minds work. However they change more to social norms as they age.

[@kitdarwin9557]

"Dragons aren't human" Me, writing a comic with dragon shapeshifters: *chuckles nervously*

[@LuscaSharktopus]

My exact situation

[@minabecke9455]

there are so many mythologies and fairy tales of humans turned dragon

[@MinecraftxFan1995]

Your critique of word choice with Saphira intrigues me, but I'm not quite convinced it's Paolini growing lazy or apathetic. Given the attention to detail he initially showed, I could see this drift towards more human language being a result of her spending most of her time socializing or interacting with humans. There are very few dragon riders in her lifetime, so I could see her being more "human" than most dragons on average simply due to a lack of dragons to interact with and either learn dragon behavior and idioms from, or even simply keep them in use. It makes sense to me that, with few (if any) friendly dragons available for her to interact with at any given time, her mannerisms would slowly drift more towards human customs and conventions--as much as they can, at least, given her being a death-lizard.

[@ZackTanTYZ]

If a dolphin, cat or dog living with human intelligence while growing up and living with humans all their lives does not simply make them act or think like humans. They are still limited by their bodies and inconveniences that are usually made for real humans. For example, an intelligent dog does not see or relate to a human sitting on a chair using a fork and spoon the same way as themselves do, despite them having the same intelligence as humans or living up with humans.

[@nunyabizness4926]

How could you get bored of dragons? They're so friggin cool

[@JanbluTheDerg]

Spoilers for Wings of Fire, up till book 9 at least. Well Wings of Fire could have been used more for examples of dragon protagonists and showing differences between the dragon culture and our own human culture :The role of Queens as leaders of their race, with there never being a King as leader; The development of Aquatic as a language used by Seawings; The fact that dragonets become soldiers as soon as they've grown to a certain extent, and will be capable of fighting a full-grown dragon. It also has examples of dragons as antagonists: The role Queen Scarlet plays as an antagonist for much of the books and is manipulative in everything she does, as well as Morrowseer and the Nightwings; The legend of Darkstalker and the power he holds as an age-old animus dragon; The role of Blister and Burn in the first prophecy books and how they threaten the dragonet prophecy before the dragonets are even born. Wings of Fire has a lot of potential examples for writing Western Thinkers, even in how each dragon varies (Nightwing, Skywing, Mudwing, Seawing, Sandwing, Rainwing and Animus dragons).

[@pinkajou656]

Absolutely. Wings Of Fire is absolutely fantastic. In a bajillion ways.

[@icylynx6067]

This was really helpful! I have a story about an immortal dragon that is arrogant, pompous and self absorbed because of his power. He sees not only mortal dragons but humans and all mortals and specks of dust. While he is not an antagonist he's more of a semi protagonist dipping in and out of the main character's journey as he pleases. The thing is he can speak and this was really helpful in that category, thank you so much, Tim! ❤️

[@AeroplaneB29]

Enormous Immortal space pirate pterodactyl dragon cyborg that will tear you to shreds That’s Ridley

[@blackpowderkun]

How about a dragon society with the 3 dragon stereotypes or combinations can exist in their life cycles.

[@ginge641]

I'd go with the latter, unless you can come up with an explanation for why a society would allow members of said society to be primal beasts.

[@lindenlynx]

Ooh, I actually love that idea.

[@ginge641]

@@bluesbest1 If they're outcasts, they're not really part of the society, are they? Manual labour is a decent enough explanation, provided that the western beasts are weaker or less numerous than their counterparts. It'd fit with the idea of dragons being naturally dominant.

[@bluesbest1]

@@ginge641 So, keeping them as pets, lowest caste, or otherwise "sub-us"? Kings of old tended to have tamed beasts in their throne rooms to show off or be semi-bodyguards, so keeping the lessers as thugs or something?

[@blackpowderkun]

@@ginge641 the primal beast are their version of delinquent youth watched over by their elders, but manage to slip by and terrorised villages.

[@StarshipVGer]

around 10:55, you talk about how hard it is to have a novel with no or very little dialogue. One book I can think of that gets by with very little dialogue is White Fang, a book about a wolf dog in Alaska around the time of the gold rush. It's brilliant, and large stretches of the book have no humans and are just the actions of animals without any dialogue.

[@Moth_Maiden_Meggie]

Inheritance Cycle: Saphira and other dragons/eldunari that had bonded with a rider could articulate words and expressions like people because from the moment they left the egg THEY WERE IMPRINTED ON "HUMAN" THOUGHT PATTERNS. Shockingly enough their psyche were affected by this. When Eragon "speaks" to the eldunari of wild/unbonded dragons, he had a great deal of difficulty understanding their thoughts because they had no basis of language he could relate to other than the impressions of physical sensations. The series had flaws like any other series does, but don't leave out contradictions because their inconvenient to your point. Love the video, cant wait for more! Give Naomi Novick's books a try, the Temeraire series specifically.

[@ashbrea381]

I don't wanna bug, but I borrowed the Temeraire series from someone years ago, and I wanted to read them again.... do you know somewhere I can buy/borrow them?

[@eeveexgurl7871]

Most intresting dragons that iv come across in books (and loved) is the ones from the 'The Rain Wild Chronicles' by Robin Hobb. Dragons who hatch out first as serpants and live inthe sea before going through a metamorphosis to become winged dragons. Dragons that spit acid/venom not fire, a trait from their serpant part of the life cycle. intresting to me at least. And thats not going into the 'live' ships made from the 'wood' of serpant cocoons that are aware

[@shapecrafterstudios]

The reason why Saphira isn’t as mystical/acts more human is because she bound to Eragon. (who’s a human) Living ‘’within’’ society and without any of her wild kind around to guide and teach her the ways of the wild beasts she’s going to become more humanistic than a regular dragon. (Especially seeing as see has the intelligence) Same goes for the other dragons who where bound with riders. Seeing as we really don’t get to see a wild dragon in the Inheritance Cycle theres no way to compare them to the dragons we do see. Guess we’ll have to wait until the fifth book.

[@ZackTanTYZ]

If a dolphin, cat or dog living with human intelligence while growing up and living with humans all their lives does not simply make them act or think like humans. They are still limited by their bodies and inconveniences that are usually made for real humans. For example, an intelligent dog does not see or relate to a human sitting on a chair using a fork and spoon the same way as themselves do despite them having the same intelligence as humans or living up with humans.

[@antiochus87]

​@@ZackTanTYZ How many intelligent dogs have you conversed with?

[@ZackTanTYZ]

@@antiochus87 How many dogs have you seen stand upright, talk human, hold cutleries to eat at the same table? Yeah right.

[@antiochus87]

@@ZackTanTYZ When I meet a human-level intelligence dog I'll ask him. Until then your analogy makes no sense.

[@ZackTanTYZ]

@@antiochus87 Just like your question made no sense either. But it's good that you answered your question for yourself.

[@matthewmuir8884]

Thank you. I have a dragon protagonist in my book that I'm writing, and this'll help a lot with writing him.

[@alchemicpunk1509]

22:25 lol, Saphira is specifically prone to suggest just murdering obstacles and has at many times considered feasting on humans, at one time remarking that they tase just as well as boar or deer, only not doing so because she knows how much it would upset Eragon. And because their "steel shells" are annoying to pry open. XD

[@eoincampbell1584]

Hello Future Me: "They kill children" Me: "children plural? They killed ONE child, talk about prejudice"

[@starman2995]

Thanks for mentioning Eragon in the video, and great job on the video as a whole. I don't have very much interest in writing, but I still enjoy watching your videos!

[@sskhinata6613]

I really like the rhythm of speak on Tolkien's dragons as well, it gives them a certain charm. When I write dragons I try to give the such fluidity as well. “ Such is his ignorance that remains inert in the face of the suffering of his people, puppet and silent, without his own voice. Stuck in the lines of the superb nobility that usurps the right to live of the less fortunate. So please enlighten me, with what virtue you dare to enter my territory and address me?’’ The silence in the forest was deafening, I could no longer hear the birds singing or the humming of cicadas, everything was stopped in time where not even the wind dared to break its charm, whenever the being in front of me spoke the whole forest was silent and listened. The words eluded me and my knees struggled to stay upright, the sweat on my hand made the rings I wore slippery and my eyes were no longer able to hold his gaze, lowering my head to watch one of his supporting legs on a rock, it cracked before its weight moaning every time it re-positioned its claws. I took a deep breath, the air burning in my throat and opened my mouth, but no words formed and for a few seconds I repeated the movement, like a fish out of water, during the act the dragon remained silent watching with curiosity my lack of words. “ From what I observe, he is not even able to formulate a simple sentence. Becoming appalled by a simple question and has the courage to call himself king. It is nothing but a scoundrel, so much of your bravado in coming to the home of another to command him. I must advise, you do not exercise any command here, especially on me. I am detached from any human conflict or any other being, I am not interested in your culture, your wars, your beliefs and alliances. If you dare to come to my home to try to subdue me, you will not be the first or even the last. Dating back even before the outbreak of your race, many others tried, though, without a triumphant finish.’’

[@MalachiSouth]

Now that's some delicious dialogue there.

[@TMWriting]

14:45 it amuses me more than is polite that a paragraph touting the importance of word choice has a scripting error (Drastically different characterisation...)

[@HelloFutureMe]

Oh my gosh - this has been bugging me. What's the scripting error? ~ Tim

[@Svarzter]

Hey! Thank you for that video. I am myself a GM in a lot of RP PBF games and for a past few months I had some problems with my own-created species. Your video allowed me to realize that with time I've lost "beast" side of my characters for the sake of human side. And you - dear author - showed me again, that this is that one problem that I need to fix! Thank you!

[@pleaserebootkidicarus4089]

um, hey Tim do you have any tips on how to mix magic and technology into a story?

[@bluesbest1]

You didn't ask me, but my view is that the Avatar Universe did it well, using technology where magic is less viable and using magic where technology is less viable and even controlling each with the other to a limited degree. Think of the Harry Potter universe where the two are completely incompatible. It probably has something to do with magic interfering with the EM spectrum or something, but imagine that it didn't and they can coexist. Perpetual motion, frictionless apparatuses, unbreakable parts, or unlimited water would fix a lot of issues in today's technology. You'd also have to consider the rate of evolution for magic and technology, like how the bow and arrow were the state-of-the-art weapons since the dawn of civilization until less than a thousand years ago or the meteoric rise of technology in general in the past 200 years. Compare that to magic that, depending on your system, can be as ancient, unchanging, and mystical as the Earth itself. I hope my butting in was useful in some way.

[@pleaserebootkidicarus4089]

nah it k im good with any advice, also do you have any advice where both were separated, then recently they met. how do you make the interactions interesting

[@jascrandom9855]

I think he already did a video on that. search for "Magic systems".

[@bluesbest1]

​@@pleaserebootkidicarus4089 Maybe like how Howard Stark learned about the Tesseract? Poke it with a stick and record the explosion? Or, again referencing Avatar, have your magic streamline various processes? LoK has lightning benders working at the power plants, earth/metal benders throwing handcuffs at people, and gloves that give you firebending powers. I'm less familiar with Full Metal Alchemist, but I'm pretty sure their equivalent exchange works well with technology. From what I understand, you can put the pieces of, say, a clock in the magic circle, do the ritual, and a functional clock shows up. That would make a mechanic's job easier and a factory process downright OP. I guess the bottom line is: Have fun with it. If the author doesn't find it exciting or thinks too hard on it, that gets reflected in the writing. It's why some stories go on long Hiatuses: the author just isn't feeling it and they don't want to put out a half-assed segment because they forced themselves to write _something._ If you're depressed, you will write a depressing story, no two ways about it. If you're a newlywed in a euphoric state, you can't write a depressing story, no two ways about it. If you've just taken a vacation to an exotic foreign country, you'll probably be able to make up some fantastical world for your story. Art is an extension of the artist, whether it be colors, formations, or words on a page. Wow, that was even worse than my original reply.

[@lars0me]

The easiest way, one magical and one technological society, is mostly addressed with in his hidden world video. Second would be one society / caste / species / whatever oppressing the other or magic/technology being straight up better, which might lead to similar results because let's say, fay might not function well in a world based on iron. If you want seperate civilizations aware of each other, you would need some very good reasons for why this situation is stable and why they haven't mixed. My favorite and the hardest option by far would be a world which employs both, because you would have to think of every possible implication; think enchanted, portal based optical computer circuits inside an AI possessed by a spirit. Similar stuff goes for a futuristic magical world which uses magical "technology" not based on science fiction. Beyond that it's a little like juggling two distinct magic systems i suppose, with emphasis of finding ways to bring one or both to their a game if you're going the futuristic route. You would also need to put some thoughts in either way about how both interact (mutually exclusive, competing solutions to the same problems, seperate but usable in combination, symbiotic,...) and what possible consequences that might have. As an example, the Duranaki chronicles contain a fully developed fantasy world, with many species, cultures, conflicts, forms of magic and about 6 equally appropriate teleportation-like spells which all seem to obey the in universe laws of faster-than-light travel. Way later we discover this planet is actually just one in a region of space controlled by a vast sci-fi empire. This empire knows about this planet and others like it, but got their asses handed to them when they tried to conquer them in the past. So they just verified that magic is contained to these planets and quarantined them forever, keeping their population in the dark for propaganda reasons. Because magic is based on "form" among other things (e.g. the correct ritualistic words and motions), AIs make for amazing spellcasters. Other synergies exist as well, but the empire and "lorekeepers" make sure knowledge doesn't spread about the other society. Some artifacts of one world remain in the other, but they are generally explained away as a forgotten kind of magic / technology.

[@trevorx7872]

"There are dozens of you" *as names scroll up at one per frame for about a minute* That's 60 x 24 names (about) which means there are about 2880 names. That's 120 dozens, Tim.

[@andrewfrumkin9632]

The Age of Fire by E E Knight has an interesting was of portraying western thinkers by having them be able to speak to humans but have vastly different ways for thinking both about themselves and the world around them

[@Arcon1ous]

To bring up the inheritance cycle, in relation to your criticism to it, I think part of the mental word choice becoming closer to how a human would say things, and think is because of their mental empathy link, as they spent more time together, they slowly became more and more alike, with their bodies and minds melding. This question still doesn't quite fix the complaint however, since Paolini still uses human descriptions for the actions of Saphira, it would have gona long way in holding the mysticism in the scene if they had described how she had moved to emulate a bow, the way she moved, and the way she interacted in a physical sense would have gone a long way to bringing some of that back. Another criticism which is related, is that the elvish characters, and the elvish dragon, still feel human, you see a pragmatism in places, where they don't want to kill but are willing to do it if they feel that leaving something alive will not change its fate, but increase its suffering as it dies slowly, but we don't really see them act, or move differently than humans in most other situations. They just feel like humans that are a bit better than magic than most, you don't feel how their experiences that shaped the race would have changed their actions much. And as such, the elven dragon feels very much like saphira, feels very human. I would have liked to see more differences between elves and humans, like we had seen with the dwarves before.

[@HelloFutureMe]

Nah, you're totally right in saying this. I'll admit I somewhat purposefully overlooked the empathy link. I should have at least acknowledged it, but I do think the criticism is still right for the reasons you gave. ~ Tim

[@maximas95]

Are you trying to say that Glaedr was perceived/ acted similar to Saphira? Have you read the books? Glaedr is probably the most inhuman character we met throughout the first 2 books. He communicates completely different than Saphira. Eragon even complains about the way he communicates when he trying to "study" Glaedr's lessons to Saphira about flying conditions. "They just feel like humans that are a bit better than magic than most," that's because they basically are. They're humanoids that used to have a similar lifespan to humans and then became immortal after the bloodoath pact between the Elves and Dragons. They are not a completely different species, they can mate with each other. You have to focus less on differences in instincts and more on differences in Culture, because they're basically the same race. Edit; Paolini meant to write it this way too, we find out very early on that the elves used to basically be humans before the dragonwars.

[@ukahchiagoziem570]

@@maximas95 Thank you very much. Glaedr was the most dragony dragon we had met at that point until we saw the OG dragons which didn't even speak. It was intentional.

[@dismectionlol682]

Such a detailed video. The research and time spent making it is really visible. Keep up the great content, Tim.

[@HelloFutureMe]

Thanks man! ~ Tim

[@CricketTheHivewing]

I LOVE ERAGON AND HTTYD!!! :DDDDDD P.S. I say the Eragon movie is barely in resemblance of the Eragon book

[@Nukestarmaster]

There is no Eragon movie.

[@charizardio7636]

@@Nukestarmaster yes there is a movie but if you see it you would not be able to tell it was the same story as the inheritance cycle books

[@Nukestarmaster]

@@charizardio7636 There is NO Eragon movie.

[@BlaZay]

He's right, there is absolutely NO Eragon movie that exists. Definitively not a chance. The scenes shown in Tim's video are lies. Don't trust them. And above all don't check out the movie they come from. It does not exist.

[@mightyant4370]

How about the HTTYD movies? The plot has almost no resemblance to the books.

[@masterraven8959]

I love your video! This actually really helped me with how I plan on incorporating Dragons into my D&D adventure 😁 but if I can be nitpicky, mind if I point out that Alduin doesn't have any control over time. The only association between him and time is that he is the first born of Akatosh and that the Ancient Nord heros cast him adrift through time using an Elderscroll. Other then that Alduin is actually an ordinary Dragon other then the fact that he can't actually be slain.

[@woutert114]

Well Alduin does seemingly reverse time when he raises dragons from their mounds as well. The shout he uses (Slen-Tiid-Vo) means Flesh-Time-Reverse, implying that he reverses time to return dragons to their flesh forms. Take that as you will.

[@roblopezcepero8503]

There were so many opportunities to put in wings of fire

[@mackenzieh5645]

Rob Lopezcepero yeah SPAM HIM WITH WINGS OF FIRE

[@alipoosmom]

He at least put it in once, I’m mean he can’t add everything.

[@williamsledge3151]

I agree. It's an excellent example of dragons in fiction

[@pinkajou656]

he NEEDS to make a whole video about it PLEASE

[@fang609]

Thanks for teaching us Tim now we can write our own draconic story's.

[@HelloFutureMe]

Thank you for watching! ~ Tim

[@fang609]

@@HelloFutureMe No problem Tim we will always watch all of your videos. Although it does beg the question now that we have dragons how would we interpret other mythical creatures granted you can always create your own although with everyone posting there art in the internet that has become a bit difficult these days. Also I was rewatching your "Speed Stingers did fly" video and your voice was kinda different back then.

[@swine13]

@@fang609 has it really become more difficult to come up with original fantasy creatures because of how much fantasy art gets posted online? Or is that more of a convenient excuse to avoid it because its harder? 🤔 If you're worried about not standing out, then the less preconceived beast templates you use the better. From my own perspective, I dont care about trolls, elves, fairies, dragons or any of that stuff because I've seen that many interpretations of them and I also know I've seen probably the closest to "my favourite" of each of those interpretations that ill ever see, so for me specifically I almost want to say there is _no_ dragon story that I'd want to actually read more about, but obviously a good enough writer could change my mind. Its up to you, but if it were me id look up some "how to create fantasy creatures" guides. If nothing else they'll all tell you to take inspiration from nature, consider their evolution, environment, diet, predators, prey, are they nocturnal or something different etc etc. Its really not so hard once you practice a bit.

[@majingojira]

Though not a dragon per se, "Raptor Red" by Robert Bakker (which is about Utahraptors and other prehistoric animals from that ecosystem) is, to me, the go-to book when looking for examples of engaging non-human perspectives.

[@ericward8459]

Good point!

[@MalloonTarka]

Mine is the story of Tarka the otter.

[@anthonyeaton9049]

You've got some brass to talk about saxophone dragons. Even if the instrument is a woodwind. :-P

[@silver1021]

It's not the fact that the inheritance cycle got children into fantasy that should be praised. It was so popular because it focused on characters and attaching us to said characters rather than getting bogged down in world building and over explaining that like most, even acclaimed, fantasy series do, thus driving away readers, because there is no compelling central protagonist with a relatable goal that we attach to. There's just some super thought-out world building, which means nothing without a compelling story to pair with it.

[@CAInandAIbel]

I love the Temeraire books. I think Naomi did a good job of writing talking dragons who stay consistent with their non-human nature, even as they understand how things work in human society.

[@Engelsgebet]

I randomly found you and I did not regret it. Currently, am in a writing project myself and both your videos on dragons helped me a lot and send me right now in a frenzy on overworking the ones in my project. Thank you for the good work.

[@malady420]

Saphira having more human-like dialogue and actions as the story progresses is due to her spending more time around humans and being mentally linked to Eragon for a longer period of time. At a later point in the story, dragons that chose to remain isolated from elves and humans are discussed. They do not think in words and are much more animalistic. I cannot remember the exact wording, unfortunately. Your points are entirely valid and I agree with them, but I disagree that the example given fits said points completely. I do still love this video.

[@thehonk3899]

While I can agree to an extent with you on the derivative nature of the dragon riders in Paolini's series (as well as the derivative nature of it having the usual elves, dwarves, etc), what keeps me interested in that series is how he uses those basic building blocks to build a fantasy world that, while familiar, has a certain uniqueness to it. My favorite parts of the Inheritance Cycle are honestly when it didn't focus on Eragon and Saphira. When it focused on Roran having to save his village from great danger, rescue his wife and lead armies to victory. When it focused on the political pressures Nasuada faced being the head of the Varden, trying to gather allies and outsmart enemies. When it delved into the history of the races, how they lived, their societal structures, their architecture. Like I mentioned above: familiar, yet unique. The dragon on the cover of Eragon is what drew me to the series, but it's FAR from the reason I stayed :)

[@fishhead1137]

When you finish with this series on writing dragons would you do a series on writing speech patterns, rhythms, and languages.

[@ASH4Ix]

You mentioned Guild Wars 2 AND Wings of Fire... My life is complete. Also, you pulled up the best book in the series that inspired my writing.

[@deadmansled]

Your videos are always fun to watch thanks for all the hard work you do for us

[@abubnis4206]

Daniel Simmons nice stalinstache btw

[@deadmansled]

Thanks comrade its a stick on mustache

[@slavicspider7762]

14:53 ya he did mention wings of fire one of my favorite book series

[@BeyondTheReview]

I love how we can tell what toothless is thinking without him even saying a word.

[@dragoninthewest1]

Because of you, I picked up Temeraire. That's 2nd book series I've convinced to check out by a KZbinr. The first was Issac Arthur who recommended the Uplift saga. I now a sequel series set during WWI or the American Civil War. Imagine the kind of scorched Earth in Georgia Sherman could have done with a dragon

[@xay2valxd526]

I love your videos keep up the good work go crazy 🔥🔥

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

Ikr!!! They are super informal and awesome!!! :)

[@darksnakenerdmaster]

In the later books, my impression was the increasingly humanlike saphira was her learning how humans think after being bentally stuck to one for several years. The younger dragons in the later books support this idea as they also think as young Saphira did.

[@CaramelFae]

On the topic of how Paolini wrote dragons, I do want to address that there was a clear distinction between dragons raised by humans, such as Saphira and Thorn, who slowly acted less on impulse and more on human thought (which makes sense given the nature of their raising), and dragons who were either raised in the wild or in the traditional way of the dragon riders. The former were raised by a young human, and thus they way they acted is largely impacted by that fact. The older dragons communicate in non-verbal and vague ways, and the imagery used for them is much more mystical and non-human. If anything, I think the writing of Saphira as a more human-acting character only added to the depth of her characterization

[@MrMultiPat]

Eragon and the Inheritance Cycle is one of my favorite books of all time. I read it so many times as a kid.

[@papaf7558]

I FUCKING LOVE DRAGON!!!! So, continue this little serie. The video is really a great job.

[@Davisnacho]

Loved your video. It was extremely interesting. Have you read The Fork, The Witch, & The Worm? It is Paolini’s new book and is a collection of three short stories that take place in the inheritance cycle world. The third story was really interesting. It was a Urgal Legend of a wild dragon that terrorized a village when it decided to live on the mountain top. It was played a lot more like the earlier scenes in the series. There are a few scene were the young Urgal stares at the dragon’s eye and realizes that it doesn’t even notice her. She was beneath its notice. It was easily my favorite of the three short stories. It seemed like something you might be interested in if these videos are any indication.

[@vulpinedeity3379]

My dragons are manifestations of ambient elements. There is a rainbow/sunlight (I go back and forth) dragon in the skies above a desert, for instance; made of rainbows. Iridescent, serpentine, a breath that can steal or restore sight, as it whims it. I have ideas for dragons of grass, wind, wood/forest, mountain, glass, who knows. Some more serpentine, some more lizardian, mammalian, even entirely alien. It depends on the dragon.

[@ancalagonaidoni7425]

Here's an idea Maybe a huge dark dragon that spreads its wings over the sky to bring night?

[@vulpinedeity3379]

@@ancalagonaidoni7425 Well, there's already nighttime naturally, but if there's a dragon of sunlight (made of rainbows), maybe a dragon of moonlight? Or there could be a dragon of night, made of the night sky, so that in its glassy form, one can see stars appropriate to the direction of their gaze, except I already have something like that... hmm...

[@Rakaziel]

Interesting idea. I had ideas for elemental dragons but those were more an evolutionary adaption towards certain kinds of magic (dragons who live in vulcanoes benefit from pyromancy - and vice versa). Your dragons remind me of Japanese Kami. Do you also have dragons as manifestations of concepts (or more precisely massive amounts of the same thoughts and emotions concentrated in one place) e.g. a battlefield dragon is made of and attracted by the emotional* remains of massed bloodshed - they do not have breath but a warcry, whipping everyone who hears it into a berzerk frenzy, and the only way to kill them (so far as a manifestation of conflict ever dies) is to starve them**, usually by vacating the area, or fighting them off with other dragons (ironically, the fewer dragons the better, since it delivers less emotional energy for the battlefield dragon to feed on - more dragons increase the chance of survival for intercepting dragons, though) *Maybe also the physical remains - their body of fused undead flesh (if they are strong enoug it might even return to life, making the threat self-sustaining) and re-knit bone, often reinforced with broken armor and siege equipment. Their scales likewise consist of old armor and the odd leftover bones. While their body still feels pain, it bothers the manifestation less than the pain felt on the battlefield i.e. not at all. It is only a source of fuel to them. They also like to fuse the undead remains of mortal enemies directly together to feed on the maxiumum amount of rage. While their souls have long departed (if they are lucky - certain amulets to protect from death turn from a boon to a curse now) their undead brains remember plenty of things to be enraged about, screaming into each others skeletal faces (everything else has been bitten off by their opponents) if they still have lungs. **The smartest of them (their manifestation having grown wise and ruthless from absorbed tactics and statagems on the battlefield, and the final reflections of minds of many generals) even follow mercenary companies, often "adopting" them like a cat does (and eating them if they refuse - a living body needs food, an undead body needs new body parts to grow - they do not really rot, being a manifestation of warfare allows them to make all bacteria infesting them kill each other - likewise their living body has no immune system (they had the remaining immune cells kill each other to avoid tissue rejection) and instead relies on their powers to fend off infections). That would be my first idea, instantly inspired by Dragons-as-Concepts and the above video. What do you think?

[@vulpinedeity3379]

@@Rakaziel That's... a lot. There might be a blood dragon, but not a war dragon. There are gods though, which are shaped by human cognition of what they represent. The goddess of death is very human, because people think about death so much. She's very kind, and gentle, and instead of a scythe, she carries an athame. She truly loves humans, and longs to spend time with them, but can only be with them very briefly as they pass from this world to Otherworld. She exists in the space between those planes, you see. Most of the other gods are kinda... bizarre. The moon goddess has a very large, perfectly spherical head, and no face, her veil flows down around her as hair which becomes one with her robes. She has very long, thin arms with two elbows each, and her fingers are seven and a thumb to each hand, very long, with several knuckles too many, evenly spaced around the palms, like spider's legs. This is because she is also associated with time and fate, and so with spiders and their webs. There is also a time god, but I don't have a design for him/her yet. The gods have two bodies (with the exception of the gods of life and death); a physical body somewhere in the real world, and a body in the realm of dreams. There are also "gods" that are actually just high-tier spirits. Wolf gods, forest gods, and so forth. There is a society of people who live entirely at sea, never coming ashore, occasionally bringing their ships together to trade. One boat became becalmed for two weeks, and in that time, they were left with one option: kill and devour the local shark deity. And now they're mutant fish people who can't die no matter how much they want to, and their own people have forsaken them. I should probably stop here. I could talk about my world for hours. I really like your idea. It's very visceral.

[@barnowl6752]

All of your ideas are pretty cool! I tried to make elemental dragons that are that way because of where they live, but I stupidly made a fire dragon and have no clue how it would look. They basically live around volcanoes, with fire resistant scales and breath like a flamethrower. I guess their scales could look like various rocks? Like some shiny like obsidian or light as pumice? Oooh that gives me an idea, they could maybe have magma for blood and be able to melt and cool certain parts of their body to make their scales lighter or stronger or sharper! I should write this down now..

[@pedroscoponi4905]

I'm gonna contest what you mentioned about Eragon by positing this - As he grew older and less human Eragon himself distanced from the bright eyed farm boy he was. I think the same way the constant connection with her (as well as other things) made him less human and more magic, her being connected to him made her more and more people-like. Also I very fondly remember the few chapters in the latter books where she (finally!) has the PoV. Maybe it's more merit of the translators than the unfiltered author, but the word choice and the way she described the world around her seemed very odd. I liked it quite a lot... I can't say Eragon is my favorite story - not even my favorite story with dragons; It had lots of problems, specially the last book. But it had a lot of great, memorable things as well.

[@UnstopablePatrik]

You are doing the Nerd God's work.

[@mattyfox_]

This channel really helps me with my writing instantly subscribed

[@Xylos144]

I'm not particularly here to defend the Inheritance series, but complaining about Saphira sounding more human as time went on is a pretty bad example. It still let you make your point, so it's fine in regards to servicing your video, but the in-story logic acknowledged and explained it from the beginning. I don't think it's a fair example of 'lazy writing'. The Dragons as a race were explicitly portrayed as intelligent and cunning, but without language or other civilization trappings, which is what led to their war with the elves. The elves bonding their races gave Dragons the use of language and tempered them a bit, while giving the then-human-esqe elves magical power and immortality. The story also addresses wild dragons as being particularly vicious and bestial in an intelligent-but-foreign manner, while rider's dragons are tempered both by the bond itself - described as a magnification of the race-wide effects of the original spell - and from the constant exposure. Saphira is perpetually telepathically linked with a person from the moment she's born, and has no other dragons to interact with. Is it really surprising that she would become less bestial and more articulate when her personality and being is melded directly with a human? It would be weird if she didn't become less-alien over time. Overall Paolini did a decent job portraying distinct characteristics of races and issues of cultural clash, as well as fairly logical results of fundamentally mixing the races to share in each other's traits. Great video as always - but there's plenty to criticize in the Inheritance Series. No need to make up criticism where none is really justified. Not exploring "what you wanted to see" isn't the same as it being bad or lazy writing.

[@Jona69]

I'll probably never write anything myself but I just love understanding what makes stories good.

[@blackstar184]

No Temeraire series? I'd love to see video on those.

[@lyn6010]

Thank you so much for crediting the artists!

[@Musikur]

Tim, have you read the Deltora Quest series by Emily Rhoda? It is a children's series, but I think there are many world building elements from it which I think might appeal to you, including dragons in the third series

[@jvanguarddragon]

I am glad to have read Temeraire series, but the most unique book related to dragon as subject would be A Natural History of Dragons and its sequel. The series' subject of dragon is put in perspective of a Naturalist (Biologist). I loved them both so much that I never tire of rereading them.

[@CricketTheHivewing]

Toothless looks really cute when hiccup bring him back from the power of the bewilderbeast

[@lindenlynx]

These have been so incredibly helpful! I've been struggling with making my dragon story unique. I can't wait for the On Writing book; I'll definitely be purchasing! I'd totally support you on Patreon too but I'm too young :') (no credit card yet). You're the best; all hail Mishka!

[@thegone7]

Let's face it, HTTYD is used because it's awesome.

[@Agateophobiadragon]

I'd love to hear your take on the Dresden Files' story from Mouse's point of view. Or just the Dresden Files in general

[@nyautotradersleasing7290]

If I did have a dragon that breaths saxophones Made my day

[@Alkusanat]

There's also another type of dragon... Western sage. The Dragon aspects and their consorts on the World of Warcraft universe fulfill that roll pretty well. They are created by the titans becoming almost divine creatures and protectors of different aspects of the world (Life, Earth, Dreams, Time and Magic). The dragons in the world of Earthsea by Ursula Le Guin also fit this since they are mostly the creators of magic in that world and their language IS magic.

[@lenastorm6280]

What about those weird dragons in "Disneys American Dragon"? Awesome Video! Could you do this with other fantasy creatures (Werewolves, Fairies, Vampires, ect.)?

[@RamBam3000]

An interesting book I read is Robert Bakker’s “Raptor Red”, which describes a year in the life of a female Utahraptor from her point of view. There’s no dialogue, obviously, and Bakker gives us only such thoughts as such an animal would have, such as finding food, the health of her children, and realising a potential mate is unfit because he’s diseased, albeit rendered in English. It’s a really fascinating book, and Tim mentioning how Paolini gave Saphira too human dialogue and mannerisms made me feel think of it. BTW Glaurung beats Smaug as an antagonist.

[@MegiMoon]

I won't agree that giving dragons in Spyro human intelligence was ,,lazy writting" because ALL creatures in Spyro no matter how they look were having a human intelligence (maybe beside sheeps and small animals). It would be more stupid to not let dragons talk in Spyro. So what leopard can talk? kangaroo? punguin? yetii? bear? Only faun can talk because half of body looks like human part? That was world with NO HUMANS existing so author could just forget about humans and decide that all bigger animals can act like human in animal body and still sometimes act like animal. That wasn't lazy writting.

[@thatnerdygaywerewolf9559]

I don't think he was saying it was lazy writing in Spyro's case, as he was talking about how making a dragon human-like isn't bad in every situation, then transitioned back into how having human-like dragons can be seen as lazy writing in general.

[@Spectyr333]

Thanks for making this 2 part video, you touch upon some many different different kinds and characters. It suprised me when you mention some less known series and it made me happy that they got some spotlight, though I can think of a few more, you didnt just talk about some of the most popular ones. Keep it up!

[@dimensionalapprentice1379]

Best thing ever again

[@bar0nv0nstrubel57]

One of the things I like about Paarthurnax from Skyrim is specifically about how he speaks. All the dragons can speak, but Paarthurnax has a unique characteristic where he tends to ramble, to indulge in speech. He mixes certain words from the dragon tongue into his speech more often than others, such as Krosis, a sort of apology. He still feels like a dragon despite speaking the player language.

[@Necrikus]

Wait, since when could Alduin control time? He was begotten (maybe sort of) from the god of time. His main gimmick was that he was destined to "eat" the world at the end of its cycle so that the new one could come and that when that time comes, defeating him is impossible (you could only win in the game because it wasn't that time yet). If he could control time, then the plot of the game kind of gets nonsensical.

[@Crawdithe98]

That part got me confused as well. Unless Bethesda reckoned and made him have the ability to control time (which I can kinda see them doing. Bethesda is quite infamous for not having any consistent lore).

[@nathanieldouthitt7180]

You're correct. Alduin does not control time. What makes Alduin interesting to me is he is a divine immortal figure who was corrupted by greed. This led Alduin to forsake his purpose of continuing the world's cycle. It wouldn't make since for Alduin to control time since, he was initially defeated during the dragon rebellion by using an elder scroll to send him through time. If Alduin could control time, he would simply travel back to when the elder scroll was used. Tim might have contributed some of Akotosh's powers to Alduin.

[@johan.ohgren]

My understanding is that Alduin and Akatosh is the same creature. Akatosh is credited as one of the first creatures to live and is worshipped as one out of eight divines (Gods). Alduin however is Akatosh under a different name after he got corrupted by greed and an agenda to enslave all mortar races. Akatosh can control time and is eternal. The Elder Scrolls doesn't simply moves Alduin to a different time but banishes him to an existence outside of time (and when he returns he does that at the same location he was banished).

[@DragonessYT]

@@johan.ohgren yeah Auriel, Akatosh, and Alduin are all the same being. They have a cycle they go through. Auriel creates the world Akatosh maintains the world Alduin ends the world and turns into Auriel at the end. Then again, Elder Scrolls lore is so screwed up that it's hard to have any concrete answers

[@frking100]

Alduin is time itself given form. In the cycle he is the end of all time fated to devour everything so the cycle can repeat and he can evolve into his other form which later becomes akatosh and after turns into alduin again. He does not control time but rather is time itself

[@minomerle9906]

Those were exactly THE "on writing" videos I needed, because I am actually writing a story about a Western Dragon as one of the main characters, so most of the book is written from his perspective and the book is much about the differences in dragon and human cultures, physiology and personalities. And I swear by the work of Tolkien that this is going to be a unique and (hopefully) interesting story. So lots of thanks on this! :)

[@fakjbf3129]

I feel like much of this video could apply more generally to just writing non-human characters in general. Just replace "Dragon" with "Alien" and boom you've gone from fantasy to sci-fi.

[@lilyminer9164]

I mostly watch these videos to think more deeply about my favorite series right now wings of fire

[@pinkajou656]

Yes.

[@sadlobster1]

In my fantasy works, my dragons are a tad different than the iconic image of one we've seen in a lot of Western fantasy. Yes; they can fly, they're incredibly strong and when provoked, they can be dangerous. BUT...here is where I try to make them different. At least; to a certain degree, I try to. 1. Unlike most dragon icons; which are seen as savage, greedy and lack any form of human level of intelligence. The dragons of Overon (the world of my first fantasy series) possess vast levels of intelligence. They are capable of speaking all manner of tongues and languages, possess great knowledge of the realm and all its races, have shared their language to those whom they've deemed trustworthy. But most of all; through the use of their elemental powers, they helped create the realm of Overon itself. The Earth Dragons shaped the mountains and hills. The Sea Dragons created the oceans, seas, lakes and rivers. The Fire Dragons helped teach the other races how to use their flame to benefit their own lives, the Wind Dragons gave life to the breezes and crosswinds. But most of all, the Light Dragons shared the gift of healing to all who wished to use it for the greater good. On the matter of their elemental powers, while dragons are more commonly known for breathing fire. Other dragons within Overon possess different varieties of mystical abilities. For example, the Sea Dragons' breath creates either a fog-like mist or is capable of entrapping their foes in thick layers of ice. 2. The dragons of Overon are capable of taking on alternative forms (human, elf, dwarf etc.) They take on these forms in order to not feel quite so imposing, when visiting other kingdoms. This was a gift shared by the Light Dragons, the first breed. Through the power of their natural light energy, the dragons can assume whatever form they think of. But it takes a great deal of focus and practice to achieve this. 3. Unlike typical dragons; which desire only to plunder, burn down villages and eat humans. The dragons of Overon took a solemn pledge, to protect those in need and never harm the innocent. Much like the dragons of HTTYD, they have a natural desire to protect those they consider most important to them. Those who've deviated from this pledge (those we've seen in our most iconic of legends) were but younglings who were corrupted by their own pride. 4. While the dragons of Game of Thrones are shown to have only two sets of limbs (two wings and two back legs.) Those that live within Overon have three sets of limbs (wings and four legs.) Furthermore; when underwater, the Sea Dragons' wings take on the form of fins to help them move about. Finally; while not invincible, the dragons of Overon are capable of leading immortal lives. Some of their kind of lived since the very beginning, when the realm first took shape. That is like, several million years; for us humans. So, I hope I'm on the right track with MY dragon characters

[@axelpetersson5787]

sadlobster1 not really unique... but it sounds good!

[@sadlobster1]

@@axelpetersson5787 One other thing I forgot to mention is that along with their intelligence. The dragons also possess the same understanding of right and wrong as other races would. More commonly known dragons are often depicted as vicious, brutish animals who kill relentlessly to survive. But in Overon, the Dragons are neither born inherently good or evil. They choose which path to take, later in their lives. Although...why ANYONE, dragon or otherwise, would deliberately CHOOSE to become evil is beyond me

[@globin3477]

Basically, that’s the eastern sage archetype mentioned in the previous video.

[@homebrewedthoughts2033]

In the third book in the Inheritance cycle Brisingr there is an entire chapter that shows that much of her humanness is do to Eragon's perspective translating her Dragonness

[@onyx2787]

What about the dragons in Wings of fire?. Nevermind

[@mackenzieh5645]

Red X Yeah I reeeealllly wants him to mention him

[@YukihyoShiraki]

3:31 idk if you left it out for spoilar reasons but the whole motherhood aspect is anothing amazingly unique angle imo

[@zionthedragon8866]

I will argue with you about adding human natures, as dragons, while not PHYSICALLY human, in a LOT of cultures, had human characteristics, a play on what humans can become, or in some cases, it's HUMANS that are copying dragon nature and not their true nature. Spyro, ALL series, even the at best ok skylander series, has good use of it's dragon in human like nature, and unlike popular beliefs, while insomiac claimed he didn't have apposible thumbs, he actual did, and everyone saying reignited NOW gives him them is wrong, reignited just made them more prominate in the design. Plus, I believe the story doesn't NEED to revolve around humans to have a impact, and sometimes it's good to have animals, ESPECIALLY mythical ones, portray human emotions, because it's a little more easy to portray human emotions, hence why things like fables, and anthro cartoons are/were popular as we know/knew them. While I still keep to the orginal origin that fafnir wasn't a dragon, fafnir literally represents what humans can become through certain actions, this case, greed. Fafnir could have been easily removed from the story, because like smaug, he never leaves his den, until he need to go take care of something involving water, but other than that was relatively peaceful and didn't really add much to the story, other then to prove how heroic the hero was and give him powers. Fafnir wasn't unique in design, yet his human like nature to reason and feel human emotion made special. If anything, the DIVINE creature, and western beast are over done and get really bland and unoriginal. Sure there ARE orginal ways to approach this, but it gets repetitive at times. Also, shocker, you ready? The world doesn't revolve around humans, so it's nice to see a story from the dragon's point of view and have humans MAINLY take a back seat for once, like in WoF. Also dragonriders of pern popularised good dragons in MODERN media, but not the first to have good western thinking dragons.

[@evannibbe9375]

That was lazy writing on the part of the lesser bards of ancient cultures, who to get their meals must form stories that their listeners can relate to.

[@TheSuperRatt]

@@evannibbe9375 That's very reductive, even if it might be true, though perhaps not as true as you make it out to be.

[@finncedar7388]

I’d love to see a whole video about wings of fire. I think it’s a very interesting dragon role. And I think the magic system is very unique.

[@pinkajou656]

YEs!!!!! PLEASE!!! That would be the best video of all time!!!

[@bv657]

Just when I thought I was done getting saxaphoned

[@collinecoon]

A couple books that handle dragons and world-building with dragons are the "Joust" series and "The Year of Rogue Dragons" series. They made the dragons relatable and meaningful to the reader. They gave me a reason to want to know more and understand more as the books progressed. If anyone is looking for good examples, I suggest they read these books. One, "Joust," has a human character speaking to us about the dragons and making us part of his understanding. The other, "The Year of Rogue Dragons", has some dragons able to shape-shift into human form. These dragons talk to us, show us their emotions, desires, fears, etc. while still retaining the wisdom we come to expect in such fantastical beasts.

[@julespowell8906]

Question: must a dragon have an otherworldly quality to itself? What if I wanted to create a story where dragons are very much like humans or perhaps through Evolution in a world where dragons and humans existed there became a hybrid species? Or what if there was a dragon society that became intertwined with a human society that by merging the two cultures wouldn't it mean that dragons would have some human characteristics and mannerisms overtime as they lived among the humans in peace? I am asking this because why must dragons be otherworldly why can't they be on the level of humans or humans to be on the level of dragons?

[@evannibbe9375]

Our customs as humans are immensely influenced by the simple fact that if a human in the Stone Age wanted to fight another human, the fight that would be entailed would be mutually destructive or be ineffective by virtue of our hands not being all that efficient at being knives, and thus the fighting of humans (as well as the short lifespan of humans) would rely on forming communities of people to collectively kill our enemies very quickly and have large enough families to not be eliminated entirely. From these Stone Age cultures came the coordination necessary to create food faster, and thus have more ability to let other members of society invest in making technology, and from that, our modern world Dragons start from entirely different first principles, even if they are created with the ability to communicate with each other with a language capable of philosophy. The first dragon fights would necessarily be rather quick battles where advantages quickly stack up for the dragon currently winning, leading to a rather quick death for weaker dragons. Once knowledge of this feature of individual dragons in dragon society being capable of Subduing many dragons on their own, the ordering of society would never be in the form of mutually beneficial cooperation so much as it would be an extremely long lasting absolute monarchy-type hierarchy, made especially long lasting via the first monarchs being able to outlast the existence of their thrones, rebuilding the kingdoms they themselves built several times over millennia. Once these dragons discover the technology of humans, this will form the basis of factions of dragons who know they cannot defeat the original dragon monarchs even with 100 such lesser dragons, but who can easily buy the favor of humans to use their technology and armies to defeat the prior thrones. Of course, this is all based on dragons being more like the Tolkien mythology of dragons as having a pretty clear reduction in power going from older dragons (who live indefinitely) and younger dragons (with a slight transformation in that I am allowing these dragons to reproduce (albeit slowly) and not necessarily requiring dragons to be evil (the story I gave above is more about the realpolitik that must form the basis of dragon culture, as per CGP Grey’s 0th rule for rulers: “without power, you can do nothing.”))

[@julespowell8906]

@@evannibbe9375 that is a fairly in depth response and I love it! That is most certainly NOT a perspective I would've thought of. However, as you stated "Of course, this is all based on dragons being more like the Tolkien mythology of dragons" and my whole argument was based on the idea that you would have dragons that were NOT based on Tolkien dragons. In fact there are as many ways to portray dragons as there are cultures and peoples and in several of those portrayals there has gotta be plenty examples where Dragons as just as normal as the baker down the street. I almost wanna point to the Dragonborn race from DnD as a prime example. So yeah, all I was trying to say was that dragons don't have to be grand or epic or mysterious, they don't even have to be large in size, they can go all Mushu and be tiny! I hope I am making sense. Thanks for the reply!

[@outsideaglass]

This really helped my writing my dragons, thanks! I hadn't considered that I should add in factors of their culture that only dragons could do, like whether or not they would feel guilt for stealing and so on. Very helpful!

[@armorfrogentertainment]

I really don't get why Eragon has such a rabid fanbase. There's not much abysmally bad about the series (except how the books handle Eragon's feelings toward Arya despite her having no interest in him at all), but there's also not a lot of good things, either. And it certainly has no deeper meaning or lessons for the readers.

[@metaruSaifa]

Probably for the same reason a lot of not-actually-that-good stories/games/movies have rabid fanbases. They experienced it when they were young and that feeling they had just sticks. At least that is the case for me, Eragon will certainly always have some place in my heart.. although I am afraid of rereading it because I don't believe it will hold up to my nostalgia at all. Also, the entire way the series ended was a disappointment in my eyes, even back then.

[@armorfrogentertainment]

@@metaruSaifa It was as I was finishing Eldest that I realized just how much Inheritance conformed to the fantasy genre's tropes. I remember as a twelve year old thinking, "wait, this plot is Star Wars. Let me guess, Oromis will die in book three after Eragon returns to him."

[@AeroplaneB29]

It felt unfinished

[@acua3]

@@metaruSaifa It's still pretty good. I think if you really want to look deeper you could find a lot of problems, however it's remains a fun read overall. A series doesn't need to avoid tropes or be unpredictable to be good.

[@InSpades0]

One minor thing is that Alduin cant control time hes said to be the first born of akatosh the god of time and is therefore not able to directly control it but is just extremely intune with the flow of time. Hes more so just a force of nature whose primary function is to bring about the end of the current world which would in turn bring about new one. Even though you defeat him in soverngarde paarthurnax reasons that he most likely didnt die (which is supported by the fact you dont absorb his soul) but will reappear again in the far and distant future.