One D&D Wild Shape changes are BRUTAL

[@remyb6854]

They should have several categories, absolutely. Like Predator, Herd, Game, Bulky. Etc. So if you see at least some distinction between like smaller game animals like raccoons and possums vs herd animals like deer and horses vs predator animals like wolves and hunting cats vs bulky animals like elephants or hippos. Etc.

[@matthewconlon2388]

Pls see my comment above where I break these out into traits. Moon Druids choose 1 when they Wildshape. The capstone I came up with at 14 let’s them take 2 or be huge

[@rodrigom7686]

I agree. The animal forms looks like blend.. Would be so cool to choose the features for the transformation.

[@ryanconnor3480]

Yeah. I like druids, if it looks like this in the final version, I’ll just stick to 5e.

[@EventyrGames]

It's just... bland, this version of Wild Shape.

[@AoAD]

Maybe the ability to choose traits. Like running animals, climbing animals, etc. Have differing attack options to mirror these too. Like claws, teeth constriction, venom, etc. Alternatively, why not have them transform into a statblock that those Tasha Summon spells have? Those have the differing options and such. Use those.

[@EventyrGames]

Yup, that's it. More choice and versatility.

[@wadeall8998]

As a druid main I am not a fan the wildshape is limiting in utility and the cool abilities you get from being a certain beast like the web attack and spider climb from a spider wild shape plus one of the worst things is the loss of the ability to tank that was the moon druids big thing being tanky and able to take the hits they basically took away my favorite thing to do as a druid

[@DudeMan1620]

Ya this is now a were-wolf class not a turn into snakes class

[@EventyrGames]

Yeah. It's the lack of versatility and creativity that hurts, not the lack of power.

[@madelainea6314]

I don't get why they didn't do with Animal of the Land what they did with Find Familiar and Steed. Have 3 options, like Speedster, Bulky, and Climber (ok, something better than that), and make variations in the stat block. Of course it's not the MOST customizable, but at least it's close to what they've already established they're willing to do. Yes, it will drag out a druid's turn a bit more as they select which one they want, but choosing 1 of 3 is quite a bit different than it was before.

[@snobgoblinDK]

I really dislike those honestly, I think they are sometimes overly confusing

[@mirageowl]

they either needed to make the stat blocks as you said more customizable, or don't restrict our access to other features completely. As it stands it feels unfun to use Wildshape. Tabletop RPG design should prioritize fun over balance imo

[@AmideusTV]

@@mirageowl If you read the wording on a lot of the playtest material it's clear that it's a very early draft. Wild Shape even removes saving throw proficiencies and skill proficiencies entirely, which for saves doesn't make any sense. This seems to be a test of the stat block template specifically. And if you're looking for a lot of flavor in an early draft playtest material, you're going to be disappointed. Playtest stuff is usually pretty barebones at first. Like the early drafts of the Astral Self Monk looked pretty odd and now it's one of the more interesting of subclasses.

[@steven_r33d]

Everyone's talking about Wild Shape... nobody's talking about all the spells that druids lose with the new Primal spell list. No more Charm Person, Blight, Geas, or Plane Shift among others. In the final version they need to fix that as well as the wild shape issues.

[@EventyrGames]

Yeah, I really wanted to get into the spell lists too. Arcane spell lists have, from what we're seeing so far, like 2x or 3x as many spells as Divine and Primal. I know WotC is biased towards wizards, but really?

[@Oneofthecoments]

Wow, as written I just wouldn’t ever use wild shape in combat. You even lose a lot of the out of combat/RP elements… Not being able to be tiny until high levels for instance and not having unique beast abilities. I mean you really want my d8 hp Druid with now a max ac of 15 to be next to an enemy!? Pffff yeah like never… Druids are just bad clerics now, sad.

[@apoclaydon]

Moon druids later in level wasnt great the low ac meant the extra hp soon depleted and its no different than having polymorph cast upon yourself as that provides the hp of the beast can can be for higher cr beast that you havnt seen and most casters get access to it.

[@EventyrGames]

I agree somewhat. Broken at levels 2-3 and level 20, and just strongish at level 10 with elemental form. So it was just a lot up-and-down in term of power.

[@DudeMan1620]

Seems like thr current 5e druid rewards smart play and this new 6e tells you how to play

[@AmideusTV]

I do however greatly appreciate the fact you kept the actual pages up during the review process and showed all the information. Very important part of direct comparisons with visual methods since both are formatted the same.

[@FlutesLoot]

While they're emulating the Tasha's Beastmaster with this, I have yet to see someone play the Tasha's Beastmaster :P I think we all knew they'd change Wild Shape, but they seem to have a lot of work to get it right as they move forward.

[@EventyrGames]

Yup and that's what I don't like about it. It just doesn't feel finished, like at all.

[@devildham]

Totally agree with your suggestions about Wild Shape. A simple way to address the HP is to give you a Temp HP amount that is Proficiency Bonus times 10. That would give you 20 temp hp at low levels, which is good but not massive, and at higher levels, it's 60, which won't be massive but can still be the difference between surviving a big attack or not. If that doesn't feel like enough, you can increase it to 15 instead of 10, which will max out at 90 Temp HP. That sounds high, but the Wooley Mammoth (a common Wildshape choice) had an HP of 126.

[@hinzkunz2431]

I would stick to somethin level base like 5 times level to make it a bit smoother in scaling. 20 hp at level on tripple your effective hp and that seems unreasonable. it would also be stronger starting with level 7 and scale much better into later levels 100 hp at level 20. If you restrict it to druid level it would also nerf multiclass in case they reenable class features being usable in wild shape (not likely imo).

[@youtigee]

As a 5E GM who has a druid in group they are simplifying the shape change rules for VTT , using shape change in fantasy grounds is an absolute nightmare

[@the_peoples_arm]

One DnD Proposed Wildshape Nerfs: • Do not take on the abilities of the beast; • No webs, grapple, swallow, blindsight, pack tactics, pounce, charge, poison, etc. • Do NOT take on the beast’s HP, or get temp HP; • Can’t climb or Multiattack until level 5; • Can’t swim until level 7; • Can’t fly until level 9; • Can’t transform into tiny creatures until level 10. • Only get 1 wildshape back after short rest. • Land animal attack starts at 1d8 + WisMod. Can’t multiattack until lvl 5. Sea and Sky animals are even worse. None of that was designed to help, just cripple. So sad.

[@ryderrr08]

I guess I will work on a homebrew between One and 5 with my GM Something like adding WIS scaling on AC, using WIS for damage roll and temporary health : Mastery proficiency × Creature Size × Wisdom mod (size from 0 to 4, extra small, small, medium, big, enormous) : 2×2×3 =12 at lvl 2 as wolf, 3×2×4=24 at lvl 4

[@matthewconlon2388]

Here’s my proposed fix: 1a. Fix: Add the following text to Combat Wildshape: “In addition, when you assume an animal form you may add 1 of the following traits to your form granted by your deeper connection to the fauna of the Multiverse. Stalker. Like great cats of the savannahs or jungles you have advantage on stealth rolls and deal an additional 2d6 damage to a creature that has not taken an action during the 1st round of combat. Crusher. Like the claws of mighty crustaceans or coils of great serpents, when you grapple a target it is Restrained instead of Grappled. The target remains Restrained until the grapple ends. Venomous. Like vipers and vermin your attacks can expose your target to potent toxins. Once per turn when you hit a target with your bestial strike and deal piercing damage, it deals an additional 1d10 poison damage and the target must succeed on a constitution save vs your spell DC or be poisoned for 1 minute. The target repeats the save at the end of their turn, ending the poisoned condition on a success. Pack Lord. Like the wolves of great forests you can lead allies in the hunt. When you hit a creature with your bestial strike your allies have advantage on attacks against that creature until the beginning of your next turn or the creature moves more than 5 feet away from you. Herd Master. Like the great beasts of the planes, once per turn when you hit a target with your bestial strike it must succeed on a strength save vs your spell DC or be knocked prone." 2. Complaint: Resilience is nonexistent. No buffer HP, terrible AC, like maybe the worst in game when you get the subclass. Feat Patching or multiclassing are not acceptable fixes. But I have a one step solution. 2a. Fix: Change Barkskin to Abjuration. Done.

[@hinzkunz2431]

Fix 2a doesnt seem that good honestly. Having to use an action to make moon usable in melee means you don't contribute anything first turn of the combat. Also with low ac and no proficiency in con saves that Bark Skin spell won last long means you have to use additional actions to keep it running in combat. I Like the idea of more templates to facilitate different combat archetypes just add survivability into the templates as needed. Base druid should instead get a Control focused use for channel nature like: grasping vines restrain up to wis mod creatures i an area 15 feat around you until the end of your next turn if they fail a reflex save against your spell dc. Maybe also scale healing blossoms and the controll feature at levels 7, 11 and 15.

[@originalpleb]

The lack of medium armor is a small thing but it was always exciting and fun (you know fun, the thing games are for right?) to finally get your hands on dragon scale (which isn't metal) to beef up your ac, but hey who want gear progression anyway >

[@EventyrGames]

I can agree with that!

[@Oneofthecoments]

Honestly hate to be a nay-sayer but one D&D looks bad… I think I’ll just keep playing 5e lol.

[@detecus1863]

Yet another dull and uncreative One Poop addition to 5e, thinking whether I should simply ignore it, or just fully turn towards pathfinder

[@EventyrGames]

Unfortunately I kinda feel the same :/

[@MaMastoast]

As Long as find familiar exists as a low level spell there is no reason to not allow for druid to feely become tiny. Specially now that find familiar doesn't have a max range.. familiars are just as good at scouting and doesn't risk your life

[@samflory]

Honestly the thing I hate is how they nerfed non-wild shape druid. Nearly everything core Druid's get leveling is wild shape. This combined with wild shape being far weaker than just using a cantrip means a lot of Druid don't get very much useful from the base class.

[@DudeMan1620]

Druid got nerfed into the ground. Thans VTTs for making the next version of a pen and paper rpg into simplified trash. This is not a shapeshifting druid. This is now a flavorless werewolf character. That CLEARLY tells you exactly how to run your character and that you are NOOB for even spending any points in physical stats on a druid. I look forward to playing black flag for years to come.

[@EventyrGames]

It is really disheartening :(

[@ZombieBraintrust]

I think they should let you choose a proficiency from a list and a saving thrown on wild shape. List Acrobatics, Athletics, Perception, Stealth, or Survival. Saving throw would be Dex, Str, or Con. This would let you be a stealthy panther, a pushing elephant, or a jumping tiger. Let the base animal form do a unarmed attack as part of the multi-attack.

[@EventyrGames]

There's a ton of ways they could have made this exciting. I wish they'd done just any of them.

[@galacticfork]

I think you misread alternating forms. You can't wildshape into a dog, then change back, then turn into a bird. It says "and then switch BACK into THAT Wild Shape form." Also, they took out the best part of arch druid. Verbal, somatic, and non consumed components are IGNORED. It was an unlimited subtle spell that also ignored materials.

[@EventyrGames]

You are right, caught that after. So even less exciting (although I like that particular feature fine, it was kinda needed).

[@sortehuse]

The DM determine when you roll initiative, so I don't think that the DM will let you abuse Archdruid ability.

[@EventyrGames]

True enough. Not a huge concern either way. Just not necessarily great game design ^^

[@valeclaw1697]

Mfw even moon druid won't wanna wild shape lol. Honestly, they should look back at the Lunar Mend Feature, and the UA for Circle of the Primeval, and just give Moon Druids way to burn spells to augment the form. Spend your spells doing what you picked the subclass to do, instead of the fantasy being held back by it.

[@EventyrGames]

Yup, not a whole lot of vision or creativity here.

[@neurolancer81]

Yeah, the animal forms are blah, I’m not a fan. Thanks for covering this.

[@jiml8582]

Druid - least played class. WOTC - Can we make it worse? I didn't mind dealing with the various stat blocks. Picking the right form for the right situation is what made druid wildshape fun imo.

[@EventyrGames]

Yeah, they made have made it simpler, but they sure didn't make it any more fun :/

[@samflory]

Even worse they said why don't people play casty druids then made sure the core class gets almost no features other than wild shape. Then nerfs wild shape so hard that literally it's a debuff. If it was a spell NPC could cast on PCs nearly any player woudl be pissed.

[@robmongar7933]

After spending most of the OGL saga defending the designers as they obviously didn't have anything to do with that... this is just embarrassing for me, for them. But mostly, for the druids! :O In their attempt to fix a balance issue, which is for the most part problematic for 1 druid subclass between levels 2 and 4, they have completely gutted one of the druid's most fun, flexible and creative features.

[@EventyrGames]

Hard agree.

[@mirageowl]

while the animal forms are bland, I don't think they are the issue. The issue is the lack of features and all the weird restrictions as you mention: Wildshape going away when Incapaciated for no reason, every other feature being inaccessible etc. If we can't have access to those features those forms need to be customizable via Druid feats, or subclass features, but the way I see it Moon is just not enough and there will not be any other subclass that interacts with Wildshape. Addressing the issue of level 4 druid being overpowered in completely the wrong way as well as not fixing the level 7+ druid having no reason to Wildshape ever. (In fact removing the only reason to wildshape at high level, the hit point buffer)

[@EventyrGames]

Issues all over, as I see it. For those who wild shaped for funky features and out-of-combat shenanigans, there's nothing there anymore. For those who wild shaped for combat, well, you don't want to do that with this kit.

[@MrTea_7]

Love the thumbnail ;)

[@archersfriend5900]

The shape change in 5e makes the druid an amazing tank. I think they balanced it against martials. Don't forget this is a new edition. There will be crazy changes.

[@EventyrGames]

They balanced it - it's just no longer fun. Or viable in combat at all, really. Which might be okay - but why then give it stuff like Extra Attack?

[@AmideusTV]

The framework they are using for wild shape is perfect, and WAY better than current. The current wild shape mechanics are awful. It's the only 5e class I can think of where a primary class feature you get at level 2 is not actually explained in the class description section, but also changes in complexity with each new monster added that fits into the categories. That level of confusion is just not present for any other class, so scaling down and standardizing the wild shape into an easy to check one size fits all mechanic is great. The trade off is you don't get a billion features, which honestly should have never been a thing in 5e anyway. I wish there was a bit more to the wildshape, and that it offered some greater variety, but there's nothing stopping them from doing that. Just imagine additional shape options or class features from more book resources. If there's a standardized framework for it, then you can go wild, instead of having to scour through the DMG for the right creature (or what most druid players do, look it up online). Are the levels at which different effects get added or the current restrictions lacking? Sure, but that can change over time. The entire point is that druids are too complex and too much of a headache as they are now. And also lets be fair, while wild shape works on a massive range of creatures, everyone is always using the same handful of them anyway. I think a heavily overlooked aspect of this change is the fact that the druid uses their own HP and AC, and also stays in the form for an extended period of time. You're going to leverage that to get some more mileage out of these forms.

[@hinzkunz2431]

But you don't keep your own ac that is one of the problems you nerf your own ac in wild shape by a significant margin. Druid starts with light armor and shield so with studded leather armor, a shield and 14 dex you reach 16 ac at level one with potential upgrades through magic items. Wild shape starts at 13 and scales up to 15 at level 8 with point buy if you choose to increase wisdome instead of taking feats. There is no reason to assume players are going to choose to stay in these forms, you loose ALL your abilities including but not limited to spellcasting and in return you get 10 ft movement speed and blindsight if you didn't have it already. Druids were too complex and moon druid was all over the placer in power levels and they successfully fixed that by making wild shape bland, boring and unexciting to the point were your best option is to just transform into a humanoid just to keep your opposable thumbs because what form you choose just doesn't matter anymore besides your ability to grab onto things. The power level of moon also is fixed its not all over the place and show stealing but instead constantly on the floor. Even moon druids have better survivability and damage OUTSIDE of wild shape

[@EventyrGames]

I get what you're saying, and I agree to an extent. My issue is that they don't show us this now. We can't playtest what's not there. What they've shown us here - and that's the core class plus what we'd expect to be the most wild shape focused subclass - is really, really uninspiring. So if they have ideas for a pick-and-choose-your-feature system or additional stat blocks, they should have shown us them. This is half-baked at best - and doesn't show a whole lot of vision or excitement. That's the real issue for me. As you say, we can always talk about balance, but this has no flavor, and that, to me, is much worse.

[@samflory]

The problem is the template sucks. If you are a Druid in armor you'll have better AC out of wild shape. The wild shape damage is in line with cantrip damage. But you can't cast spells, use items, feats, or racial abilities. As it stands now the template is literally a debuff. So there is no reason for a non Moon Druid to wild shape, but every Class ability is wild shape. The Moon Druid just gets one more attack and an ability to heal themselves. But the damage from that one attack is far less than if the Druid stood in the back cast a long term damage spell and used cantrips. Meanwhile the Moon Druid has a 12-16 AC and a d8 hit point total. Without more HP or abilities to avoid damage melee is a death sentence. The more I look at this I feel like they should remove wild shape from the Druid class, and make it a ranger sub class. Then figure out how to make a druid work as a spell caster.

[@Spartacus547]

Just dont play this edition its total crap not worth the time or money

[@tormunnvii3317]

I disagree. The Druid changes are great as they are, perfect for my Druid players who need a simpler way of playing their class. Very fun and exciting changes, please keep them as they are, Wizards!

[@hinzkunz2431]

it got very easy indeed. Just ignore wild shape completely berceuse it is useless anyway. You just should tell your player to delete all references to wild shape to avoid them making the mistake of using it.

[@EventyrGames]

I honestly can't tell if you're being serious, but if you are, hey good for you - it's great that these changes work for someone! :)

[@samflory]

Yeah it's really easy now just avoid Druid completely. Wild shape is a debuff for non-moon druids. You'll have better AC, damage, and get to freely use spells, feat, racials.... Yet the entire Core class is focused on wild shape despite it being a bad idea for non-moon druids. The moon druid is better, but I struggle to understand how a moon druid survives in melee with a low AC and low HP. Also even the moon will likely do more damage with spells and cantrips.

[@solaries3]

5e Wild Shape has always been super broken. I'm glad they're looking to balance it.

[@EventyrGames]

I don't disagree, it was way too good. But they can nerf it while keeping it fun. As described here, I don't see many use cases for Wild Shape.

[@damaark21]

It's not bland, it's gutted. What is the point of WS now outside of RP? No health Lower AC Lower damage There is little difference between picking your shapes ahead of time with their stat blocks on hand than a spellcaster not knowing their spells or having the details on hand. The class feature is now actively worse than your normal form and significantly lower than a barb/fighter/monk/warlock/everything. The original balance was in the shapes themselves. There was huge gaps in between shapes and dropped off significantly at hogher levels. Bear, scorpion.... and then? Those stats didn't increase when you levelled so yeah, bear is strong but only for 1-2 levels then it lagged behind. Tl;dr: What is the point/role of wildshape now?