Reviewing the first CONFIRMED Mythic+ Pug Leaver BAN...

[@damkina_ina]

14:32 I recommend havig a closer look: - many of the 10s / 11s include names of well known boosters - a quick look at wc logs shows that they likely bought a boost for at least the final boss too Just thought that might be some fun to know info :p You know what I see in 11s + more often then "bad" players? Obviously boosted players with an insane ammount of ego - thinking they are infinitely better then everyone else 90% of keys aren't bricked because someone died - but because one of your players decided to stroke their ego an leave right then and there

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@damkina_ina wow that's insane. Huge turn there if true! Great addition to this conversation!

[@andymars650]

For real, though. I used to feel like 9's were a lot easier than 10's just because of all the boosted people who had no idea what was going on.

[@dirusj4006]

Yeah his logs are wild. His raid logs are even worse. I would bet money on he has paid for boosts.

[@damkina_ina]

​@@heythereguysitsMetro I can't proof anything (obviously) but things like the final boss kill specifically being privated - meaning that every single person in that run must have decided to delete logs (or the player behind the character privated the entry) Missing gems and enchants (at least from my experience those are expected for final HC in pugs) - they also didn't clear with the guild they are in Only clearing the raid once - even though there are high value trinkets like Queens mandate etc In any previous season they ran at most +2 to +4 while they barely ran anything below 9s this season All of this together just feels off to me

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@damkina_ina ya I totally agree with all that. Looks that way!

[@DeDoubleDizzle]

In shadowlands, I played with some friends, who liked pushing keys. One time we had 4 group members for a mists run, so the leader invited a random to fill the group. We had summoned everyone when another friend came online. Within 5 seconds the random was kicked from the group and replaced with the friend, without a word being typed. They laughed about it and said, "people do us that way all the time." Crazy part is that right before this, they were on a long rant about how messed up and toxic it is for people to do that to randoms.😅

[@MeekoEdits]

Bro leaves 10 keys a day, judging by his own words. Let’s say he plays 5 days a week. That’s 1200 keys in a standard 6 month long season. And now wait for it…he calls the community toxic. You can’t make that up.

[@Wand422]

Very few people do 1200 keys a season, look up your own keys done on rio in a single season for reference, I highly doubt that number is accurate but it's still a problem even if scaled down

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Wand422 very few people also play 14 hours a day haha. He is obviously lying but why lie about leaving ten keys. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[@MeekoEdits]

@@Wand422 Yep, the number was theoretical napkin math. I really doubt that it's the actual number...but it had to be quite high, for Blizz to take action, anyway.

[@madDjakni]

I absolutely believe he's leaving 10 keys a day, he's probably not playing or doing keys every day (I mean if he's leaving 10 on avg every time he's pugging is he really playing keys?)

[@Wand422]

@@madDjakni Yeah getting banned for leaving keys is an extreme punishment, I'd imagine the misdemeanor was similarly extreme

[@reiikos]

after reviewing his rio page, he's one of those that are mentioned when people talk about players not wanting depleted keys on their io. he has 10 keys depleted for the season and all of those are ones that came down to the last couple of minutes before he could leave the key

[@knasbollolo]

Yeah a "clean" io page actually serves the opposite purpose to what they imagine. I see a clean page and alarm bells start to ring.

[@Frawt]

People like this are depressing. He's only 2.7k io too, so he's still firmly in the realm where a lot of people put very heavy importance on item level and not so much on the rio, and literally almost nobody in his 11s checks a rio page for the amount of depletes (at least I hope they don't, 'cause I wouldn't). Leaving keys just to keep a "clean record" is the most pathetically insecure shit I've ever seen. ...then again, he is a ret paladin main. Of course this isn't an absolute statement (duh), but I swear they have so many players who are so...pretentious about themselves. Think it's the whole "big, badass warrior of light" archetype.

[@dirusj4006]

Yeah there are loads of 10s on mine not upgraded. Someone dcs for a minute or two the key has a good chance of failing but most people are like me will take it as one of thier weekly +10s. Not going to waste the 30+ minutes joining and clearing for nothing.

[@manuelaidos]

@@dirusj4006 clap clap, This is want i want to hear

[@jgro9]

i have exactly 10 depleted keys on my page but ive only left 1 key....and that key was going to be ~ an hour *over time* - we had 20 deaths in NW +10 before even crossing the bridge and it was a 10 that i was baited into...nobody was kicking or stopping anything, 2 players werent even 1k so you know the second boss was going to be a crap show. just sayin...dont live by that rule. feel free to have a look Aeytro - mal ganis

[@faxxie9964]

This man has to had left couple hundred keys this season is my guess .. Which is wild rofl

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Pretty nuts.

[@ThomasBachler01]

100% agree He reached 10s 5 weeks ago and has 40 keys timed since then. 5 weeks x 7 days= 35 days, so he times roughly a key a day. How many keys can you leave in an hour? I would go with a conservative 2. If we conservatively assume that he is actually playing 8h a day (instead of 14 lmao) and we say the 1 timed key + finding a group + the little extra that is left if you divide 40/35 = 1h. That means he has 7 hours for leaving keys in which he leaves 2 per hour, so 14 left keys per day. Across 35 days is 490 left keys. Even if you think any assumption there is too high (I actually think I rounded down and took the lower value) than that only covers the last 5 weeks and he has been playing for 10 weeks and it only covers for 33% of his total timed keys (but I think its fair to assume he left less keys earlier in the season and also lesser so on very low keys). He might have even hit 4 digits if he even remotely plays as much as he claims to be playing 😀

[@Laptican]

@@ThomasBachler01 What's funny is the fact that he says at the start he basically only find bad groups. I have done around 300-400 keys this season, many timed, some not completed. It's wild that he has only timed like 45 keys because honestly the majority of the keys i'm in isn't that bad. In a +10 you can even easily time a key with 10-20+ deaths.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@ThomasBachler01 lol love this analysis

[@jackiethomas3301]

its incredibly funny to me that when you looked at his IO it was worse then my evokers and I stopped pushing past 11 a month ago

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@jackiethomas3301 ya it's particularly scary to hear this from some one with zero timed 12s.

[@ThomasBachler01]

"I am not leaving any keys, that is just unjustified" "every day I get insulted and called slurs when I leave keys, why are they not looking at that?"

[@manuelaidos]

Metro you answer to me but you dont answer to this guy that says the same thing in the video

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@manuelaidos which guy is that?

[@FrobiWan]

Not only did he get banned, he got on the fast track to a loooooooot of blacklists. He basically announced "HEY! I'm a serial key leaver! I will brick your key if I don't like you!"

[@mangomariel]

do a lot of players have blacklists tho? i don`t really care too much, like 90% of players are fine. at least at the keys I am doing.

[@FrobiWan]

@mangomariel Some players tend to have blacklists. Usually if they run across someone toxic or prone to leaving, they'll either insta-decline or block them.

[@Wand422]

Thing is every group you join you have to dodge 4 potential blacklists not just one, it pops up just enough for me to make me want to keep it installed

[@FrobiWan]

@Wand422 That is true. Sometimes someone in the group will say something if someone in the lfg list is known to be toxic or a leaver. Most times if the leader sees, they'll just insta-decline.

[@therightperspective8690]

So what. Can just change his name.

[@BriskWintun]

Even if theres one bad player usually the rest of the group can carry a 10 or below key. My guess is he leave 3-5 keys a day, if hes actually running keys maybe 10 which seems almost impossible to me.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Yup, absolutely. This idea that you should leave every key with some one not playing at a top level is just you making up excuses for being a bad person.

[@kelinoxx3469]

@@heythereguysitsMetro absolutely, yesterday i timed my fist 10 with my monk and we died 10 times lol, so this guy is straight up crazy

[@dirusj4006]

For a while my best timed key was a 10 dawnbreaker. We had a 556 ele shaman in the group.

[@wiecaszekpawel]

I can understand his frustration banging his head against the wall trying to break into +12s but there will be a lot of people trying to finish those failed keys just to gain experience. JUmp to 12's is still huge for average person and it's like re-learning all the mechanics especially on trash mobs. This applies to tanks and healers especially. It also seems he plays too much. When you get frustrated, just take a break for a day or two and come back with positive attitude.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well said all around.

[@Massive-rat-hypocrite]

A dps leaving that many keys is crazy. How privileged to even get a dps spot in the first place and then you leave 10 keys in one morning? Lol

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya really wild.

[@TheUnderJaker]

id wager a huge amount of the bans came from people like this. guaranteed he leaves a ton of keys before the first boss. like first pull, wipe, leave. and he does this alot.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's probably really easy to do this a lot if you believe it's justified and you get a lot of invites.

[@Tabriel01312]

You know what would be glorious for WoW pug community? Mod that would gather statistical data fro mthe runs and compile that into stuff like you have in League of Legends sites like OPGG or LeagueofGraphs. Not only Rio and item level but bullet point list about the player : This guy often leaves after first wipe, Statistically use Rebuke less than 89% of ret paladins with his Rio/Item level, Never casted Blessing of protection on other party member, freedoms himself, last known blessing of sacrifice 11.06.2021.

[@Thrasherbear]

That would be a cool set of statistics actually. I like making a competition for most kicks with my DK friend. During the interrupt orbs week i slam him with disrupting shout on Prot warrior, but on regular weeks him and I are neck and neck for interrupts.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya sadly a lot of that isn't allowed via the WOW LUA. They don't typically like this sort of thing.

[@Vis_Electra]

Being "bad" is not a banable offense in this game, otherwise Iasun would have been perma banned a long time ago. This guy is supposed to be an above average player, mind you. Just let that one sink in for a moment. xD

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Vis_Electra haha

[@kopitarrules]

To answer the main question you ask, I think this dude is both an outlier and exactly the type of person the system is targeting. My guess is that this guy leaves 10 keys per hour and that he is leaving a key after one death (whether him or another group member) assuming that the key wont be upgraded. I agree with the poster who had a vulpera icon. The system is working as intended. To the OP of that thread I say simply, "Get wrecked leaver. You earned your ban now own it or cry like a little baby. Either way Blizzard just made keys better for the next 7 days by banning you."I am loving this every bit as much as you are, Metro, and kudos to the "batman" of the forums for putting this dude in his place. Seems like by the time I get into keys the system will be running well and far fewer people will be leaving. Love it.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

LOVE seeing people get dispensed that sort of justice. Here, they are able to weasel their way around these conversations lying about who they are and what they do. On the forums, they can't do that.

[@metsfan1932]

A "score" is 20 so were probably talking about at least 40 keys, probably a lot more than that. I think it might be triple digits.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, probably.

[@nofoxgiven6561]

Well that was a rollercoaster to listen to. I know blizzard is intentionally keeping “leaving a great many keys” ambiguous but man imagine playing 14 hours a day for every group to be so bad as he makes out. Blizzards helped by giving him a forced break.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@nofoxgiven6561 ya it doesn't make a lot of sense. To say you play that often and upgrade that few keys and not even be doing 12s.

[@liamdavies2823]

I was just in my own +4 stonevault on my alt, it was going really well no issues, everyone was on an alt and everyone's main was 2.7k+. Tank randomly stops pulling and stands still at the anvil where you can get the buff then says "nobody blacksmith for buff?", somebody said "its +4 just go" and the tank straight up left. Now i have a +3 stonevault absolutely nobody will queue for and I might as well log off that alt until reset. I might just start playing classic, this is torture and it's been happening to me all season

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@liamdavies2823 wow that's wild. Wish you recorded that one I would love to show the world that idiot.

[@wiecaszekpawel]

delete your key, join other group and you'll get a new key

[@jigsaw6954]

Ill log me 631 dk and tank for ya ifya want

[@liamdavies2823]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I really wish I had recorded it - I might just start recording every run lol

[@liamdavies2823]

@@wiecaszekpawel pretty sure you haven’t been able to delete your key for a while :/

[@HimerosTeviot]

He left 40 or more runs. Inferring from the "scores" mention where score means a value of twenty and scores being plural thus, 40 or more runs.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya good catch.

[@Laptican]

"I may have called him a sub human illerate" 🤣🤣 that is on point

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha

[@oneman9620]

Judging by the bluepost it seems like the threshold for leaving runs is comparative, meaning that it would likely be higher for a player who does +14s and has to leave a lot of runs going badly and someone who does +10s where the likelyhood of timing the key is a lot higher. That’s at least some insight into how they determine who to ban for leaving.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I'd imagine at the highest level it would be hard to be an outlier given the failure rate.

[@Rylawler]

Let's assume he does actually play 14 hours of keys a day as dps. Roughly 30mins to find a group and 30 mins per run as an estimate assuming he doesn't actually leave. That's 1 key per hour and a total of 14 a day and he is leaving 10 of them. The maffs dun work.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, which is scary because these are HIS numbers. You would expect him to report on the low side if anything.

[@Stephain]

Would be interesting if Blizzard took it even one step further and put some sort of asterisk beside the name of someone that received a ban so people have a warning that the person is a habitual key leaver. Doesn't have to be permanent. Maybe 30 days or something like that.

[@lightner6924]

Him deleting the his posts shows you what kind of person her is.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I was wondering if it was the Blue poster who deleted it though. But if it wasn't, agreed totally.

[@DaveStarfire]

I think he was using scores as a synonym for "very many". I think it's old fashioned English, haven't really seen it outside of books.

[@ArquillWefronic]

I interpreted it as, Blizzard has some tools that assign a "score" to players around metrics pertaining to leaving keys. If they scored too highly on multiple metrics then they were banned.

[@birds-and-bones]

@@ArquillWefronic Yeah he probably meant "you scored highly", not "the days of our years are three score and ten" (bible verse that means to say, people live for 70 years)

[@dirusj4006]

@@ArquillWefronic Yup. Did you leave before or after the key was fully bricked? Did you leave first? Probably looks at total deaths and key level as well. Willing to bet my GB 8 we couldn't finish with 40 deaths doesn't have much weight.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's what I thought too, but who knows. Probably hanging up too much on a single word.

[@Aegea291]

That blue poster responded extremely professionally so props to them.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That dude is an absolute stud of an employee. If he is ever let go, it will be a major loss to that company's outwardly facing departments.

[@slb159]

Indeed they did..in bothe their responses. And in analyzing their responses (which I believe are purposely cryptic), I think there is some sort of algorithm where multiple categories are taken into account that they don't want to make fully public. Just my take on things: - When he refers to "action"...it is the actual ban that the team took against the player. Not the action of the player that resulted in the ban. - He mentions "scores" after referring to an occasional leave. I believe this is where he's keeping things in the dark intentionally. I think there may be a scoring system, where yes, the number of keys you leave matters, buy also when you leave the key, why you left and additional violations (insults, cursing etc) are taken into account to hit the "threshold" he speaks of. - Saying "your number was 'outstandingly higher'" than those in similar situation leads me to believe it's not just a ratio of how many keys you enter vs. how many you leave since many people do this. There's more to it than that. I believe he flagged a bonanza of categories lol And playing Devil's Advocate, if I'm correct in at least some of my presumptions, then maybe it's why Blizz took so long to implement the system. It's not just a willy-nilly number; they actually put some good thought behind the process which took some time.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@slb159 I think you are right about this honestly. Its far more sophisticated than I realized.

[@teqrevisited]

Amazing how he managed to find all of the toxic groups. I wonder who the toxicity came from? Maybe it somehow followed him? What a mystery.

[@deenman23]

amnesia the dark descent style lol

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Might be a bug, who knows. Blame the company.

[@johnlinks]

It's why i don't usually say anything in pug groups. If i do, all i say is "why?" or "stop doing that"

[@expOsiris]

"why?" is a common occurance

[@curtharakaly4620]

Yea, all I say is "please don't pull anything" really...or what I'm gonna do. I tank, and people will tell me to pull multiple packs but then send all their CDS the instant I reach the first pack and get everyone killed. PUG Tanking is the worst because you have no clue, or control, of how everyone else is going to play or listen to info. I can't pull multiple packs if the split second I reach the first set of mobs everyone is doing 2-3m dps lol. I never call anyone out or leave keys. Someone else will always leave. We had a dps leave before 1st boss of SoB and still timed it with 1 min left. Granted it was an 8 and I was just helping for fun.

[@Wand422]

@@curtharakaly4620 yeah people are scared in key levels where pulls last a minute that if they start late they'll lose a lot of numbers and enough people will judge them off numbers in those key levels. One fix I've found for it that has some success is I just say "going long" or "grouping far" and that generally makes them pause even if they're not 100 percent sure what that means it opens them up to the idea of I need to watch what this idiot is doing before I make my decision on when to start dpsing

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Same. All I say is "hey what you did there was unacceptable" as the guy is threatening to leave.

[@stephanlunden4318]

If you leave a key after the first wipe it's easy to leave more than 10 groups.... I would say he leaves at least 80% of his keys for various reasons (looking at Dmg Meter after 1st pull, not kicking mobs, pulling to small, pulling to big, picking wrong route from the tanks.... that and some more nonsense).

[@Konradical-py7wv]

Started m+ this season. I'm above 3k now. The only person in every key who is trash is me. Since I know the rogues (I play rogue) in 17 keys are out preforming me by huge margin. So I seek to always play better. Funny to see his mentality and checked his IO aswell. Sure it's everyone else holding him back LOL.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Great perspective there.

[@kondziofon]

I had a lock at this guys logged dungeons there is only few of dungeons logged by other people and what i am able to gather it that he actually may be the bad player in those groups. Only runs that ware completed and timed and he was casting interrupt less them 15 times overall (inc all times rebuke ware pressed not only successfully kicks) over entire dungeon that means those ware the other players pulling all weight in those successful keys. I also had a luck at his poison dispels in arakara where in both loged runs he only used dispel on last boss and exactly 0 times on trash in first part of dungeon. aditionaly in every single of the logged dungeons he was the person that died most times to mechanics. This short analysis leads me to believe that he is one of the players not realising that actually he is the player that is not puling own weight in those keys and living as soon as he is realising that other players are not strong enough to essentially 4 man the dungeon. I noticed this kind of leaver in my own keys that is players who only press DPS buttons and live grp as soon as somebody points that they need to contribute to groups kicks, stops, dispels and overall completion of dungeon mechanics. I am absolutely sure you have encountered this particular kind in yours adventures on azeroth.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya everyone has. Wild to hear all that but I'm not that shocked. I can tell by his attitude that he is a bad player. Glad it's confirmed.

[@user-jy8hz5tm1u]

Bring out the cups, we got some tears to catch for the next couple of years!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Its gonna be AMAZING

[@birds-and-bones]

Still thinking about the technical side: Their tool must be able to discern the following scenario: "This player leaves the group first and maliciously, while the timer is still going" from this scenario "the group had a discussion and is giving up. Someone has to be first to quit" - it might just be by reports? But just in case, if you are ever in the position to group-surrender on a key, maybe the best choice is to zone out, reset, *then* leave the group. Or to make sure *you* aren't the first one who quits the group so an invisible counter doesn't tick up? Because I doubt that the automated system that's looking at 100 000 dungeon runs a day is taking into account the content of chat messages (besides presence of curse words maybe).

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya well I think it should be assumed, based on that they are also now saying that they will compare people against averages. So if the average disband rate is 50 percent and you have 75 you are in trouble. Then the system kicks in past that to find out your behavior.

[@birds-and-bones]

The chances that you'll find someone who is *currently* this toxic *and* who comprehends their own situation is vanishingly small. They will always dispute, deflect, distract. Just think of serious, high-attention cases like famous people getting caught in crime or simply socially frowned-upon (but legal) misbehavior. We all learned as small children that the simple expected behavior is to say "yes, I did this. I am sorry" in a convincing way and yet, how often do you hear any of them do it convincingly? The only people I can think of are those who have expert assistants, who practiced a correct 'I'm sorry' speech with them. It's so rare. You almost never see individuals, on their own, make a recovery. When it's youtube personalities, it's most often a way too short delay, then they come out with a *deranged* victim-blame, or they try to deflect to their circumstances or what have you. And that's with people who can use editing, who could write a script, sleep on it, re-edit, whatever! So when it's gamers accused of being shitty on the internet, what chances do they have of crash-and-burning less than any James Somerton or [insert example here]? I'm thinking it's slim!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha ya you are right for sure.

[@Alex11554]

This is not a new policy. It has always been in effect. They are just finally enforcing it.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

No I would say it was a loophole. They have cleared the air on it now.

[@rodchester3]

I think it's pretty obvious that by the fact that this guy's most recent key for every single dungeon is his first completed +11 - is that he probably spent the last week before the ban joining 12's - wiping or having deaths pretty early on and then leaving. I almost guarantee you that he's not getting invited to 12's with a group who has completed 12's before so he's doing them with prog pugs and then raging and leaving at whatever the first sign of failure is.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya very likely the case.

[@Aegea291]

Wow, then they must be tracking keys left in X period for every player.

[@rango_wisely]

That’s my thinking too, the threshold has to be calculated based on leaves/timeplayed. Love it

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, they probably are.

[@VDHmain]

10 keys in a 14-hour session is a 35% leave rate. Out of 450 keys so far this season, I've left a total of 1 that was not a group decision, and it was because a weakaura was dropping my framerate from 70 to 1 fps as the key was started so there was no way I could tank this. That's a 0.2% leave rate. I like to think that's the average but I may be wrong. Maybe leavers are the norm? It's tough to say because it's a holiday weekend with tons of discounts on steam, but there does seem to be much fewer people listing keys today.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya? We will see when I get back to it Tuesday. They are the norm but it's not normal for one person to leave more keys than I have had disbands all season haha

[@marlonguzman2713]

It's always the easy to play specs that are the most toxic, somehow their egos are up to the stratosphere and are willing to brick any key the moment they don't like how a tank pulls an extra mob of a random pack

[@deenman23]

it seems that way because ret pally is played by a lot,its why you see the meme of huntards because everyone used to play bm,so ofc the data will the skewed in that direction

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya sadly it inflates the ego.

[@gageracer]

They probably check the average leaving rate and give suspension to the outliers. It's a good start but there are fundamental issues with M+ and the timing obsession.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya for sure.

[@Steinhagen75]

I love the comments trying to normalise leaving keys, it's not normal to waste people's time full stop. This isn't a single player game revolving around them, if they don't have time to commit to group content and the potential failures that come with it then they can find something else to do or do the community a huge solid and just quit the game. This 💯 boils down to their fragile egos not wanting the untimed key on their record, it's the likely same reason you get the gankers who phase out just before dying during world PvP encounters. I am very much looking forward to seeing the community finally be able to police this issue properly now that Blizz is taking reports seriously.

[@Allcadia]

A way to seen if ppl are leavers in some way is to check if every key they've done is time, many player leave key, Some player never leave the dungeon, it's not waterproof but it give a idea of the person. Maybe it's different this season, i don't really play but when i take a pick up on my group, i try to stay even it's not time, as such as when i came in the group. i play for fun not for score it helps maybe to :p

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Yup, been saying that for a while now. If they only have close keys or upgraded keys they leave every dungeon that looks over time. Meaning they also leave keys that they THINK aren't going to go well.

[@OneNvrKnoz]

The cups of coffee comment killed me. Christmas came early for Metro this year

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya man me too. These people really just make buffoons out of themselves.

[@bikers3989]

I wonder if a system like "vote to kick" would work in m+, as in "vote to disband"? Sorry if this has been asked, but could just time-gate leavers, and if they continue to leave then ban

[@Wereshaman]

If doing 1 group an hour, at 14 hrs with 10 leaves, that's quite a bit. Then add in days, weeks, months. So being generous, lets say he does on average 10 keys a day at 8 hrs, that puts him at 2 keys completed a day, with 8 leaves. 8 leaves x 7 = 56 leaves a week, now times that by how many weeks we've had this season so far and you can see how high his number would be. Outright crazy, which leads to the idea that the common issue with all his groups is himself. He is the problem, not the other 4 members. Probably gets targeted with a spell that he should be using a defensive on, dies, then blames the healer for not doing their job and drops group, when he could have stopped the problem himself by doing his job as DPS and using his skills to stop such attacks from either going off or that reduce his dmg taken.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya hundreds of keys a season at least. Insane that he would ever admit this.

[@vladimirdosen6677]

What he is describing is exactly my experience in 12+. You sink so much time into doing keys, groups don't work out, keys get bricked. 100% of my 12-13 keys got bricked by a leaver at first group death.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya such a shame. After the changes to the timers it should be much easier to upgrade 12s with some deaths.

[@vladimirdosen6677]

@heythereguysitsMetro My beef with blizz here is majority of players don't do these keys. We are clearly doing them because we want to push our skills and challenge ourseleves. I would make all the keys above 10 not reduce their level unless you want it to. If we are in a group with friends and we brick keys we gotta go back and play something that's clearly too easy for us again just so we can continue. I get the logic for casuals, but people that run keys all day are probably fed up of grinding something they don't need.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@vladimirdosen6677 Oh, well keys going backwards is obviously in place to limit the "infinite" potential of the system. I think if anything it would be removed for keys BELOW 10.

[@vladimirdosen6677]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I'd be happy with that. It would also remove emotional pressure on people knowing that if they have a leaver, they can still continue.

[@thereasoner9454]

After looking up his main/post toon, it appears he doesn't leave many on that toon. However, if he had a lot then he is doing it on alts too. His problem is they can see the whole pile of characters, and how many times they leave in total. He must leave a lot on a lot of toons, and I would assume he calls people out in the wrong way, and got reported by many.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Possibly alts too, didn't think about that fully.

[@thereasoner9454]

@@heythereguysitsMetro When you pull up his dungeon history on RIO you can see overtimed with score, and then some Zero score runs. Not too many zeroes on the main, so he might be running a lot of alts and bailing on those toons. Hey, push the limits and pay the price.

[@matrix255]

Today I was doing a Grim Batol +11. Our tank wasn't very good, we wiped once in the second boss because he accidentally pulled it with a pack, our fury warrior immediately said "gg" but didn't leave. Time was tight but we can still make it I though so we keep going, we made it to third boss with 9 deaths and 13 minutes, we did a clean kill and kept going. We were in the last two corruptors, when they were both 20% tank types in chat "we need % lol" and then he divine steed all the way to the dead dragon at the entrance of the corridor to last boss with the two corruptors still alive and I was like what the hell is he doing. Warrior dies and then I die because I ran out of healing and defensive cds. We run back and just when warrior charges in the dragon does the massive aoe and kill him again. He then procced to leave, with the dragon at 20% and just one step before last boss. I understand his frustration our tank was kinda trash but we're right at the end! I was so freaking pissed I end up reporting him. What annoy me the most is the fact he was the worst dps in the group doing only 1.2m with 636 ilvl, even with all our deaths and shitty tank we could've time the key if he could have had pull more dps.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya that's pugging in a nutshell. And a great example of a key fit for recording and review on this channel!

[@ProxyXIV]

Begs the question what this no-lifer is going to do for 14 hours in his day while suspended.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

hahaha

[@Dr0Damyen]

I think he was using scores to explain it not just one score like left dungeon x times. I think it's a set of scores, like played x dungeons in y time, left dungeons as first person z times out of x dungeons, completed w dungeons out of x dungeons. I think it's a matrix of different scores and if you are too high on all scores of a number of those scores you will be flagged or something like that. Similar to KPI's in a corporate environment. I hope that this is just a first step similar to with bods. In the beginning Blizzard didn't seem to care about bots and only handled when you reported. I reported a lot of bots and sometimes got the message they took action against a certain bod. Since than it seems they changed and are proactively banning bots. Or at least when I'm grinding herbs/veins I don't see druid trains anymore with like 10-20 druids following the same path and looting the same herb/vein at the same time. I hope they will proactively monitor behavior in game and take the necessary action. Albeit that they educate people what's expected from them. This example of leaving is maybe quite clear to most people, but there are other things that might not be as clear. Furthermore I hope they will investigate the origin of these behavioral problems and also look into preventing these kinds of behavior.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Maybe!

[@Cabersight]

Comeuppance is a helluva piece of entertainment, TY blizzard ive never had this much fun outside the game!😊

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, really good feeling to see this.

[@kfactor99]

whatever the metric is, it's good that they have it and can action against it. they don't have to action often for it to carry weight in the community.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

You absolutely. You see how resounding this is already.

[@darthenx2585]

Question. Would it make sense to make it so anything under a 9 gives no IO? This way anything under a 9 is just for us causual folk trying to gear up and farm crests.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

No

[@Slamdoxicalz]

The tier token at 2000 rating is very welcome, especially for non-raiders and definitely the first season

[@msscott22]

"Yea I leave 90% of the groups I'm in, why you banning me bro" 🤣

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

haha

[@christopherdaffron8115]

This post does start to pull the curtain back just a bit about these Mythic+ bands. It appears as though Blizzard is counting Dungeon desertions as part of this "score". Perhaps Blizzard's additional warning about griefing in Mythic+ PUGs has to do with their anticipation that some players will stay in a group to avoid being banned, but will grief the hell out of the group as a way to protest or even coerce someone else to leave the group first?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well either way that action is already bannable.

[@her0268]

If this guy plays anywhere near as long as he says he does, you can just imagine the amounts of keys he has left, and of course he is one of those people who expects god's gift to World of Warcraft M+ to play with him in 10-12s this late into the season. And to be frankly honest whatever the given threshold is at the moment needs to be lowered, because there are a lot of folk that play less then this dude and leave keys. But at the very least I'm very happy to see the system actually working, the post wasn't just a bluff to scare people off behaving anti-socially.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It's so good to see. I doubt this guy plays that much. Probably using that as another fringe exaggeration like a lot of these people. Saying they play 14 hours a day allows him to believe that leaving ten keys a day is not a lot.

[@sayris1764]

They added the ping system surely they can add option for disband group vote that replaces leave group button so while the timer is running ppl can only leave if its unanimous Didnt really get any "toxic" players this season so far but feels like there are way too many ppl leaving keys for very small time losses

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

They can but they likely won't without a system to back it up.

[@cheeks684]

Hilarious to see this guy complain about peoples skills, when you can go to his WCL page to see nothing but grey parses for raid. Then his logs from dungeons show him losing by 400k dps to people lower ilvl then him.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, he is awful. I didn't think to do that until people in the comments brought it up. Getting carried in every logged key. The kind of DPS people complain about tbh. Goes full dungeons without dispelling and struggles to interrupt 20 times as a melee.

[@xzalean]

I need a weekly WoW Forum Ban Review video Metro. Forum Fridays, lets make it happen

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

If you see it happen lemme know. I would make a dozen videos a week on this if I could.

[@cvilla1944]

I bet part of "the occasional leave" is if you leave a dungeon and start queueing for another. Not really much of an excuse if youre doing that

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

True, good thinking there tbh.

[@theoriginalzinng]

"Understand, the number wasn't small" Yep deserved. This is a prime candidate. The only thing that's unfortunate is that it's not for longer or permanent. Edit: answering your question i paused when you looked at his RIO and he only has like 40 keys above 10 timed so something doesnt add up, he's either not doing anywhere near as many keys as he says he does for as long as he does (most likely) or he leaves 20-30 keys a day

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, by his math he leaves like 90 percent of his keys entered. Which is staggering given how much that may add up to.

[@alexjay8257]

My guess is that he's leaving every key that doesn't succeed flawlessly, or about 90% of the way there.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

yup, seems so.

[@inovakov7174]

If he's playing "14 hours a day", that's something we should be able to see on his RIO page, right? A bunch of completes, one right after the other. Tons of them, since 14 hours is enough time for 20 keys and some breaks. Yet, eyeballing his account shows that his most active weeks lead to something around 20 *completed* (not timed) keys per week. That's really not all that many completed keys.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Right, and he confesses to leaving ten a day haha.

[@W3sR8kN1mL]

I think he leaves 75% of keys.

[@Lionelhutz-attorney-at-law]

I think closer to 85%

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Could be!

[@rayray0987]

Sometimes I just do one dungeon a day! Is it that crazy?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Honestly ya it kinda is. What happens if it doesn't go well, you are satisfied to just log off?

[@Googlrr]

Blizzard should have just banned him longer for posting this on the forum. Man admits he plans on abusing the report function and shows he hasn't learned anything. Cya later, get the perma. If he's truly playing 14 hrs a day (doubtful) then we could probably look at his completed keys/day and do some math and guess how many he's leaving, but based on this post 10 doesn't even seem like enough.

[@jeanlandry69]

This is a clinical case: 14hrs a day is clearly an addiction. And he's obviously taken the toxicity at a high level. The question is: what will happen to the big number of toxic players who's numbers will be less impressive than this guy but will anyway ruin the game for others?

[@christ.4977]

It's about time Blizzard started fixing the toxic culture in WoW.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Agreed.

[@fireraid9173]

7 day ban is generous for someone who collectively wasted more than that of 4 other players throughout the season.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Good way to word that tbh.

[@danoizedafunk753]

"Understand the number was not small" I died laughing lol

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

hahahaha

[@alonzofalls]

I’m thinking he leaves over 50% of the groups he joins. Probably closer to 75%. I imagine he finishes 1 out of every 3 keys he joins on average.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya basically meeting my seasons worst average all on his own haha

[@nuggieification]

I honestly deplete 10s VERY RARE and that includes doing boosts with one player no playing, or, worse, playing and dying or causing wipes.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, they are super easy. This guy is leaving easy keys that can likely still be successful.

[@FooX917]

Sounds like blizzard did this man a favor giving him a week vacation lol

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Did us all a favor tbh.

[@byucknahthered3914]

@6:20 Blizzard should consider making a report feature for people like this if this does end up becoming a thing of people just sitting in keys and doing nothing to avoid getting banned. @13:00 "one morning" "10 groups" how fast is this guy jumping in and out of groups? I'm trying to wrap my head around how long it takes as a solo DPS to get into groups, time for groups to fill, time to get into the dungeon, etc... how do you get in and out of 10 M+ groups in a single morning? How fast is he dropping these?!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya that last part really confuses me because everyone says it's hard to find groups. Maybe as a DPS paladin it's easy or something idk. But ya who knows. Crazy that he admits to it like this.

[@sirdiealott]

Imagine doing keys 14 hours a day and your best keys are 11s. I'm a M+ for the vault casual Andy and I'm not that far behind this guy. We might have our answer on why he is getting into bad keys. Also Tovi is a woman. Her toon is also female but the tmog doesn't make her look like one in the thumbnail.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, do you know her? I always just end up looking at the character and that is an unflattering picture haha

[@sirdiealott]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I'm on the forums enough we have interacted there on varius subjects. I've seen her mention it and a husband, but "know" is too strong a word. I just have a head for stupid details like this. I'd be a rich man if I could figure out how to apply that memory to stuff that wasn't stupid. :D

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@sirdiealott Oh cool, makes sense. She is insanely active.

[@FlippyDipDipper]

Lets say that he plays 8 hours a day ( I know he says 14 but lets take time off for restroom/food/getting into groups) if he's getting into 10 keys a day/playtime. I would say he's leaving 80% of them.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Good thinking!

[@kanoyu2204]

I honestly think that he's leaving 75% of the keys he starts. This whole thing reminds me of League of Legends way back in the day, when basically every other game someone just left because of a minor thing. Hope they weed these people out.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Sounds like it!

[@jonathanhines7733]

Some days I am reminded why I left retail for classic. This is one of those days.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Do you feel like Classic is better? I feel like its worse honestly. At least live wow has intentionally hard content that causes this. In Classic, its all easy and people still act like this.

[@jonathanhines7733]

@ I have found the community much less toxic and more welcoming. The game is easier but there are always ways to push yourself.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@jonathanhines7733 Like what?

[@gageracer]

About a month ago I grouped a GB 11. Resto shammy said if we get 2 wipes I will leave. I said fair. We had 2 wipes and he left. No bad words nothing. People gave their terms and we agreed on it. Simple when people just use their keyboards to type and communicate.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya well said there. Simple communication goes a long way.

[@oldmanbanjo]

This ladies and gentlemen is the face of a man with a giant weight lifted off his shoulders...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha

[@slingerland3g]

Lol. People like this really need to re-evaluate what their goal is in PUGn. Why can they not form their own M+ team that he has personally vetted to clear such keys? I PUG really to know the dungeon more and to get my rotation as tight as I can get it as DPS or Tank role.

[@taylorridenour5691]

For a hypothetical, not saying this has happened or expect it to happen to me but; if I join 5 +12s that are clearly untimeable before the first boss from excessive deaths and I leave, can I expect a ban?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Sounds like yes, but I think it depends on how many keys other people are doing at your level and leaving, based on this post.

[@dirkgoodman4282]

I've been playing this game since tbc. That's how long I've been paying a sub. I've bought every expansion. I've never been banned. But if I ever do get banned, that is the day I will quit for good. I don't leave keys unless we decide as a group it isn't worth the time, so I won't get banned for this, but let's say a massive report or something. I won't give my money to a company that doesn't want it

[@XAn0nymousX0]

This guy is playing 14 hours a day ? He must be spam leaving a ton of keys every single day if he's only completing 1 or 2 every few days. Then he complains he constantly gets flamed by everyone. Yeah no shit buddy, you're spam leaving everyone's keys. I'm glad he's been getting flamed by people. Thank god he caught a 7 day ban. That's awesome. Also, on his scoring comment. I imagine they're probably running their data based on some kind of rubric scale based on the average leaves a normal player does.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I think you might be right.

[@jani14jani]

Just as i started classic fresh Bliz is trying to pull me back to retail with this. Please bliz i don't have enough time to play both and now i have to make a hard choice.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya honestly I have struggled to even care about classic after this announcement. This is the best news ever in my eyes.

[@joshuahenning2118]

Blizzard needs to eliminate the timers and allow someone to come in to complete if a terd leaver leaves. I complete my ten keys but most times it's over by a few min and people are complaining towards the end making it uncomfortable to want to pay monthly for this stress.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Honestly just sounds like M+ is not for you. The system doesn't need to change.

[@joshuahenning2118]

@heythereguysitsMetro while I agree with your videos I was of the mindset you actually cared enough about all players to want to see change. The bans are a great start but remember this set up is almost a decade old and it's been considerably worse every expansion. Mythic plus is for me so I will say you are incorrect there, but for newer players who have a life they cannot be bothered with a system that makes it hard to fill a vault every week. That's like saying well since you don't like Milk maybe putting things in your fridge isn't for you. No, how about fix the system to update it for a happier medium across the board. This is the first expansion more keys got bricked then any I can remember and I have played since vanilla when it was just pugging dungeons via chat and if someone left, we grabbed a replacement.

[@TheGraveyarder]

I've probably left 20 keys due to bad players over like 3 expansions but this guy leaves 10 keys in a day 😂😂

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Insane right?

[@noxyoshi]

Oh i should be surfing these forums to add to my black list

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

If you run into more posts like this send them my way!

[@renc2930]

21:35 - 21:58 Had me laughing so hard omg oh god the automatic cooldowns ahhhahaa To answer your question I wouldnt be suprised if he was leaving keys within a few minutes of start, so much higher than what hes even saying. My final thoughts is I'm still so glad they introduced this lmao. Have you noticed less people leaving in your groups already?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I noticed one very specific case where it impacted the key. Video on that tomorrow.

[@Helixra]

So he plays 14 hours a day. Just 1 "morning" it took 10 groups to time 1. Lets say he left 9 of those 10 so he leaves 90%. If he proceeds to play the afternoon and evening, lets add another 20 runs. He would leave 27 out of 30 runs a day. Think he fits the criteria if this is the case, lol.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Certainly sounds so.

[@xSiLviCoOk]

people arent leaving my keys anymore so im getting a lot more experience tanking

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Glad to hear that.

[@halfsending395]

I think the op deserves his ban but I'm not sure when we started wanting others to hang out in keys for hours. I can't set aside 3 hours for each key because we need to finish to avoid a ban. In overwatch if I didn't want a ban, I would afk or do the very bare mininum, and in keys I would likely do the same. Was that better for my team? No, they had to suffer the same outcome without the ability to leave because I wouldn't. If this becomes the new trend in m+, I feel like it becomes an even worse time. People already do it in BGs when they start losing. I try to be a positive player in m+ myself, I'm not doing 12s but for after a handful of attempts on the duo boss in SV, I've probably spent the time I had set aside.

[@ingy421]

he said 1 key in 10 he timed. so 9 groups a day he leaves on average

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Seems so. Pretty insane. Higher disband rate than I have ever seen all by himself.

[@JGTheStorytime]

I think he leaves easily 70-80% of his groups.

[@mvpmew]

I still believe it has to be pretty extreme to actually get banned. I don't think it will stop people from leaving keys BUT i do hope it will improve it so people don't leave after a wipe or a mistake! BTW i thought it would be more than a 7 day ban xD I still think bad communication when making group is a bigger issue than realised. I do believe if keyholder or whomever list the group for the key actually used the tools in game to communicate the goal and intention off the key, it would improve the leaving situation as it puts people more on the same page. I haven't done keys in a while now due to working A LOT. But logged in last night just to check and everything just says +this and +that, Very few had completion or beat timer checked or any kind off note. I guess i'm just surprised considering how big off an issue leaving has become that people are so careless with their key that they don't even want to spend 2 seconds communicating to the community what they want to achieve with said key. The tools are there, are they perfect and 100% secure? Nope there will still be leavers ofc but i definitely think you could filter out a lot off them by communicating :)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya sadly it doesn't really help. The culture has gotten so bad intervention was needed. It's honestly too late, but better late than never, as they say.

[@mvpmew]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I definitely noticed a difference when i started doing it with my keys. It can't make it worse at least :) I'm in the greyzone on the matter as i can see both sides. Finding a sweet spot is going to be difficult as so much frustration has built up and tbh blizz did not help by nerfing score for depleted keys, just gave people another reason to leave. Dunno if they have changed that back but a depleted 16 was normally more score than +15. Actually gave people a reason to stay even if it depleted but now there is really no reason to stay if it depletes (Talking push keys here not +10 and below just to put it in some perspective) ^^ It will be interesting to see if this will be an end off season thing or if they will do it every month or something like that. I definitely think they will have to throw out those banwaves often and for longer. So they avoid people making second accounts to easily rotate between to avoid the whole punishment, for the community over all to notice the difference and to encourage people to not leave. I don't like it's forced tho, do think they should change it so loot is not affected from deplete as well as what i mentioned above. A depleted 12 should give more score than a +11 unless ofc you are an hour over time. People should be encouraged to stay even if it the key depletes and feel rewarded for it. I think that is a much healthier and better way to do it and then have bans on the side for the extreme cases as they will still exist regardless of encouragement :(

[@_AriseChicken]

God im so happy its a ret pally. Theyre the new hunters.

[@leooliveira4552]

It's kind of hard to understand the thought process behind a dude doing keys for 14 hours a day and complaining about wasted time on 'bad groups'. Especially puzzling when you consider that he's not even going above 11s. I have 91 timed runs above 10 while playing 4-5 days a week for around 3-5 hours. If he's really playing for 14 hours a day, while having less than half of what i have, he must've left hundreds and hundreds of groups.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, well whatever else, its REALLY sad that this dude says he plays this much and is still sub 12.

[@contrariankairos9845]

The guy probably left hundreds of keys this season but the most interesting for me is the following: the guy is basically saying : " I leave toxic groups" but he mixes too meanings for this word: 1-group with ppl insulting others which is actually toxic but must be rare and 2- groups with ppl not reaching his standard of gameplay which is not toxic and do not justify to leave. In the first case it can be justified to leave but not in the second case

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

At this point, it seems like Blizzard is saying ALL types of leaving is not justified if you do it enough. And that makes sense, because as you say, true toxicity must be rare.

[@knasbollolo]

If the system compares it against others in your bracket, pre-made groups might actually save pugging. I'd imagine non-pug groups have a lot less leavers, close to 0 even since you wouldn't disband in-dungeon like pugs do, which would bring the leave benchmark number a lot lower than you might expect, making it a lot riskier to "my time is worth more than your time" leave.

[@Thrasherbear]

Oh 100%, you've explained my experience entirely. I play 90% or more with guildies and friends. And that's for a handful of reasons, but one of them is there is no "my time is worth or than your time" because if they act like that I don't invite them. Tanking, or even DPSing keys I rarely participate in anymore because of how quick people are to leave and project blame, whether justified or not. Now I will admit I have left keys, but they have to be particularly atrocious groups which wipe 15+ to a boss. But, I haven't had keys quite that bad yet this season. I had one get close with about 7 wipes on last boss Ara'kara and I soloed the last ~40%. The only ones I've left were attempts at 12s (before the nerfs) in a premade of guildies and friends where we agreed to call it since we weren't going to time it, but that we didnt disband we just hearthed and did a diff key.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Very interesting thinking here.

[@hardtocarryharry]

Would be a rat paladin

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hahaha