Judge Bartles - Motion For Visitation - Did Grandma Cover up Harm to a Child?

[@KB-90]

A child tells you they've been sexually abused and you don't immediately call the cops or take them to the hospital... you don't need to have children in your care. I'm glad the maternal grandma reported it, unfortunately the paternal grandma let time go by and evidence was lost, so the little girl won't get justice but atleast she knows her maternal grandma believes her even when her paternal grandma didn't.

[@-HeyLyd-]

I'm surprised that nobody, especially the LGAL, suggested that any contact with this grandma be driven by recommendation of the child's therapist. Even supervised phone contact could be harmful to this child's sense of well-being at this critical time. It's SOP in these cases where no one is sure how a child may be affected by visitation to defer to a professional therapist. He/she would likely have strong opinions and important input, while the other advocates here are kind of waffling.

[@nopenoway9875]

A pedophile doesn’t have to be able to walk to cause lifelong mental harm on a child, especially when it’s their own parent. Grandma needs to wake tf up and realize her son is a monster if she cares what happens to them

[@PFMediaServices]

Yeah, when she said he was immobile and stated the injuries, I said out loud, "But do his arms work?! How about his brain and mouth?" That's really all they need. 😮🍍

[@thomasdalton1508]

Why didn't we hear from the caseworker about the grandmother's claim that she reported the abuse to the caseworker? (I know it is a different caseworker, but something like that would be in the handover notes.)

[@Strawn149]

Even if you buy that the grandmother reported the allegations to DCF she is a law enforcement officer and knows that she needed to to take her to the hospital so she can be examined in case there was dna.

[@monie2193]

Before the maternal grandmother testified, I was getting red flags from paternal grandma. When asked about the reason the children were removed from her care, she really attempted to downplay the situation. She started quantifying her knowledge regarding children sa victims before even disclosing what the child alleged. Then she quickly stated that the father was immobile at the time. She basically called her granddaughter a liar. She stated herself that she is not a mental health professional but at the same time stated she believed the child was experiencing repressed memories. Big red flags!

[@ccsorn]

That mother had a lot of "I" in her answers.

[@rebeccaporte3008]

I've been her grandmother from birth....oh my goodness. These people are too funny.

[@NurseKayP]

“Why did you feel hate towards mom? Child: “idk” Perhaps… because she abandoned her children for drugs. Maybe! Mom blaming paternal grandmother for broken relationship lacks insight and personal accountability. Perhaps gram was influencing child, but it is also possible mom needed to earn child’s trust again because she broke it.

[@Mewse1203]

Jennifer's testimony: "She said you won't let me see her. I said that's not true. I would never keep you from her" As she is actively testifying that she shouldn't see her. Also, literally all her testimony was how the kid living with her benefits HER. She put no focus on why she shouldn't see grandma. She said a lot that was about how she feels better now and how her relationship with the girl is better and how good it makes her feel. Those are all great things, but isn't a basis to keep her other grandma from her. Dod she ever think her relationship with her daughter was bad because of *her own* behavior. Edit: I'm with you. They're attributing to grandma things the kid may have struggled with due to the situation

[@Just_Boo]

I literally came to the comment section to say the exact same!!! Mom keeps going on about why she doesn't want her daughter to see this grandma and it's all me, me, me. u don't want to share her..I don't want her to feel certain ways. Again...me, me, me. Why not do what's in the best interest of the daughter?! I'm only like halfway where mom is telling why she doesn't want grandma to see the daughter, so idk anything said after this point.

[@kristakc1136]

So, a mom trying to rebuild a relationship without outside influences makes her a terrible person? The same people who also say that her being ripped from placement to placement is causing her trauma seem to be advocating for more upheaval. Just let them rebuild their relationship in peace in one stable setting for a while. Also, my take on paternal grandmother is that she is afraid she is losing control of the situation and her ability to influence/manipulate the child.

[@Mewse1203]

@kristakc1136 mom spent the daughter's Whole life letting the "outside influence" raise her. Now the grandma that helped raise her wants *some visitation* and that's "more upheaval?" No. Everything she attributed to "outside influence" could very well be explained by HER behavior and the daughter's reaction to that. And her testimony was ridiculous because was actively trying to keep one of the women who helped raise her put ofnhervlife while promising not to do so. Also, her entire testimony was about what was good *for herself* not for the child.

[@Cherilen83]

So far I'm agreeing with the comments that are popping up lol. The reason is cause I WAS THAT CHILD! These stupid parents have screwed this poor kid up, and the paternal gramma stepped in to do what she had to do. The maternal side is so full of shit their eyes are brown! Poor girl will learn later on and hopefully not keep tbis trend going. By trend I mean maternal grandparents make excuses for their druggy daughter so when history repeats itself (god I hope not, I broke that cycle), that poor girl will be on drugs and pregnant by 15

[@marlayneboblett1267]

Bless you for breaking a cycle that is extremely difficult. Proud of you!

[@kathleenmonahan1315]

Maybe if the child saw the family communicate, and be cordial to each other she will want to visit with them all.

[@ShoeChic5441]

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩how could the mothers mind go blank and not remember law enforcement having to intervene during the visitation swap??? Rightttttt

[@thomasdalton1508]

The lawyer's question when she said her mind went blank was pretty incoherent. I guess the lawyer was trying to avoid asking a leading question, but ended up asking a question that was impossible to answer.

[@QuintessentialUltimatum]

I don’t understand how the LGAL and Child’s lawyer can be the same person. Like how is that not a conflict of interest… literally makes no sense whatsoever.

[@OnTropolis]

It absolutely is a conflict and it's a huge issue with the system. You can not always, reliably, advocate for the best interest and the desires of the client at the same time.

[@QuintessentialUltimatum]

@@OnTropolis thank you! THE FIRST FREAKING QUESTION someone asked her there was a problem. Omfg 🤬

[@NurseKayP]

What do would be the difference in the role of the GAL vs child’s lawyer? I wonder. I would think they would be the same thing as the GAL acts as a non biased advocate representing the interests of the Chili’s. I’m not saying the comment is wrong because I have seen both titles. And if someone can be both they must be different roles, right? 🤔

[@OnTropolis]

@@NurseKayP the attorney ad litem represents the child's wishes, which is different from a gal representing best interest. Sometimes their client will want what isn't in their best interest, so it's up to the gal to advocate for what is.

[@QuintessentialUltimatum]

@@NurseKayP because the lawyer for the child is only going to say things that legally protect and are positive about the child, everything she will say would be through a legal lens, the LGAL is 100 non bias whatsoever, they are not on the kids side, either of the parents side, DCFS/CPS’s side, the courts side, nobody. And they tell the truth no matter what. Or they are supposed to. The lawyer only really talks to and deals with the child. The LGAL will speak with everyone involved.

[@kazrutch463]

Cannot believe the grandfather got a liver with so many other health issues

[@sprig.sprout]

“Describe your relationship for me???” She’s already been doing that for five minutes straight

[@chickenlittle5095]

Just because someone can’t walk, doesn’t mean they can’t SA a child. Wth woman? You apparently work within the same area but did NOTHING?!

[@Finallyretired2022]

I have concerns when judges make statements about time limits during hearings. Could that limit a persons testimony ? Could it change someone’s testimony ?

[@dknicely49]

So much heresay by maternal grandmother guess the grandma was okay when the mom was off doing her thing pathetic bunch of adults all of them using children as pawns in their game

[@ShoeChic5441]

How can the GAL have a dual role where she is protected against cross examination???

[@OnTropolis]

It's dumb. The attorney ad litem and guardian ad litem should not be one person. They can have conflicting roles. Often they align but sometimes the desire of the client will conflict with the best interest but an attorney ad litem has to advocate desire. It's a pet peeve I have in the system and rant about often lol

[@thomasdalton1508]

It makes no sense to me. Anyone giving evidence needs to be subject to cross examination. You can't have someone testifying and then refusing to answer questions about their testimony.

[@thomasdalton1508]

​@@OnTropolisThere shouldn't be a conflict. The guardian is essentially the attorney's client (the guardian takes the place of the children because the children can't participate themselves) and the attorney's responsibility is to their client. The attorney doesn't take instruction from the child. They take instruction from the guardian.

[@OnTropolis]

No you're incredibly incorrect. The attorney ad litem is a lawyer specifically for the child. I've seen several cases where the gal had to advocate against the aal because they do, in fact, have to represent the child's wishes if they're able to articulate them. GAL's duty is to the childs best interest alone. AAL has duty to the legal rights and wishes of their client, and to the court where the gal does not. The child's lawyer doesn't take instruction from the Guardian at all.

[@DocBree13]

Agreed!

[@Cannabidragon]

I pity those that judge or put down others by looks or appearance. So petty. What a life they must lead....

[@JoyJoysWorld]

Homebody next to mom is junkie. Nodding off lol.🤣

[@DocBree13]

Yep - I assumed that was the biological father at first

[@MarySmith-bc7mf]

Yes if that’s her boyfriend mom better get her life together.

[@albatraoz7045]

The commentary is really hit or miss & here it really missed. I've dealt with someone like the paternal grandmother. She tried being evasive about why the kids were removed from her but I could see right through her. When a child tells you someone has hurt them, you believe them. That comment about the child's behavior being the problem due to constant moving around is so sad. The person I know that was like the paternal grandmother, got their daycare shut down for failing to disclose child abuse. She blamed a child for being abused too. So gross to blame the kid.

[@NurseKayP]

The child was deemed safe to live with paternal grandmother on more than one occasion. Supposedly the child was acting out in anger? Now the child made a complete disclosure. I’m soooo confused.

[@amandacunningham3213]

Did you see Julie shake her head yes when they said that Harper said she wanted a BB gun to shoot her mom?

[@tylertucker6776]

The maternal grandmother is reading off a paper. Somebody told her what to say so I don't completely believe everything she is saying. I'm not saying the child didn't have anything happen to her but I don't know if the other grandmother whose house it supposed to have happened at, thatshe didn't do what was right after she found out she may have called the police. I don't know.

[@tylertucker6776]

I agree with your commentary

[@rebalspirit]

These grandma's are both manipulative; pots calling the kettle black. I would not allow either one to have custody. They both have a tenuous relationship to the truth.

[@NurseKayP]

Seriously, and the child can feel if they dislike each other and probably hears things that they say about each other. Mom is blaming gram about not having a bond with Harper when she broke harpers trust by using drugs. The child is 9 and she is just now getting custody back. That can make any child angry!! The child lived with paternal grandma for extended periods of time, and she’s had consistent visits with Harper but now she isn’t allowed to have any relationship with her. That is NOT healthy either. The child has already dealt with abandonment from her mother. I hope grammie gets at least supervised visits and I hope that everyone can put their personal nonsense aside for the children!!

[@lindacurtis1872]

The man that is sitting next to Mom, Jennifer seems to be strung out or medically fragile.

[@MarySmith-bc7mf]

Oh for sure, first thing I thought also.

[@molliedevenbaugh1986]

I was wondering if anyone else had noticed that.

[@Mewse1203]

Man...there's so many objections I feel could be made. From hearsay about what the daughter told anyone to speculation about the "rewards" for not going."

[@corinnesullivan8769]

I kept thinking the exact same thing. Especially when the maternal grandmother was testifying, I kept waiting for paternal grandma's attorney to object, but he just didn't. Before that he asked the GAL if she thought some visitation should be awarded and she basically said no. His question, which should have benefitted his client, should never have been asked! I'm not saying I agree with anyone in this case because the entire situation, and all parties involved, seem a little crazy. But come on! Paternal grandmother's attorney is not helping whatsoever!

[@QuintessentialUltimatum]

@@corinnesullivan8769it’s not hearse when the person your talking about told you something is a party in the case.

[@corinnesullivan8769]

@@QuintessentialUltimatum If the grandmother said something like "Harper said" that's hearsay because Harper isn't there to back up their claim. I was watching a video where a police officer was saying what the dispatcher was telling her and she had to stop because it was hearsay. That surprised me because 1, she's a police officer and 2, she has no stake in the case, but they still didn't allow it

[@PFMediaServices]

As this layperson understands it, the rules for hearsay are more relaxed outside of the criminal proceedings we tend to think of. With that said, I've got no idea what those rules are. Oh! Something else to consider, as pointed out by real lawyers when they're asked, "Isn't that not allowed?" is that it's up to an opposing party to raise that objection immediately and if they don't, it stays. ✌️🍍

[@Mewse1203]

@@PFMediaServices The rules for hearsay are basically the same for criminal and civil dockets. They both have the same restrictions, but they also have the same exceptions. The biggest difference is that in Civil dockets, it is two parties against each other as opposed to a criminal case being the state against a party. Because one of the exceptions is the party opponent exception which allows the put of court words of the parties to come in, that means in Civil cases you hear a lot more out of court statements between what *parties* say versus criminal cases where you only hear what a defendant says. So it's not that the rules are relaxed, it's that you have more opportunities for the exceptions to come into play in Civil cases. Often a case comes down to the word of one party versus the other and both of their out of court statements are allowed in. That doesn't mean other people's are, especially those who aren't available for cross examination like the daughter. And yes, if something isn't objected to, it stays unless a judge sua sponte disallows it (which often happens even without an objection). That was the point of my comment: there were a lot of things that should have been objected to and weren't, which means they are no part of the record.

[@tylertucker6776]

I think mom is full of crap.. you dont go blank during the most important questions of your life and grandma might have done things the wrong way but i dont think mom is as innocent as she is claiming

[@MarySmith-bc7mf]

Mom is still not right with a guy on her video that look’s higher then a kite.

[@tigressdivaroar9700]

I was all for paternal grandma until the maternal grandma set the record straight.

[@tylertucker6776]

Whoever that man is sitting next to mom, he looks like hes on drugs.. Just my opinion