Optical Level vs Laser Level for Construction

[@stevenslater2669]

My first co-op job as an engineering student at Drexel Institute of Technology was surveying near the Philadelphia Airport. Our transit and level were strictly mechanical devices, and data was recorded in a surveyor’s field book with a pencil! It was winter and the ground was frozen. When the big graders and bulldozers were fired up and started moving dirt, we had to take a break because those precise mechanical/optical instruments just fuzzed! When I graduated in 1965, all the seniors were invited to a luncheon at the Philadelphia Engineers Society HQ. They had set a demonstration of a then-new gadget called a LASER. There were no commercial applications for lasers at the time. We looked at the demo and said, “Cool, that are they gonna do with that?” Within just a few years everyone knew what you could do with a laser.

[@snowgorilla9789]

Similar story and time frame our electronics teacher "borrowed" a new fandangaled laser after we spent a semester making a couple of secret circuit boards. We did not know what they could/would do untill the end he showed up with the laser pointing across the gymnasium with a microphone in one hand connected to one of our boards and way across was the other board attached to a speaker. He spoke into the mike and the laser "carried" his voice to the other side of the gym. To say we were impressed is an understatement we could not believe what we just witnessed. GREAT TEACHER

[@Caderic]

I dont do much (any) slab work. But I would like to add, what we called, a transit to my kit. Thanks for the encouragement. I was told, and I'm paraphrasing, "Aim for perfection. You'll never make it, but you will become excelent."

[@tonyn3123]

I have used all the levels you have shown in my career and even go back to the older Dumpy and Y Levels that built 90% of the interstate system in my state. I have to admit I like the new optical compensator levels (The Nikon) but they are delicate. To set grades, I was taught to always achieve level elevation from a proven known point, do your work and finish by checking in on another proven known point. Hard to go wrong that way. Regardless, always use your common sense and look back at your completed work and have a good feeling that it "looks right"!

[@raws69]

You can't beat the laser level for bulk earthworks; likewise, you can't beat the compensator/automatic level for accurate work. Keep that pencil horizontal and good work up!

[@jameskleist4019]

I was a rod and chainman working with precast concrete, and the auto level is what I worked with. I helped build the Limon prison here in Colorado, as well as a number of parking lots and other buildings. That was a great experience for me. Thank you for your video. 😅

[@jjackle6431]

The very reason I have both in my arsenal. Use the right tool for the job. Great video! I always enjoy your channel!

[@arkansas1336]

You offered great advice, hope viewers appreciate this video! A side note: regarding you loaning your laser to a friend. Two tools I used in my 47 year career that I would not loan to anyone!....A chainsaw and an optical level and/or [a 1942 Gurley transit, I still have it, in "ready to work condition." I last used it in the summer of 1998 for a state highway alignment, a project I had contracted to build.] These two tools I would not loan to anyone, unless they were professionals that had years of experience working with them and I personally had knowledge of their skills. ...Even my banker who I could tell was insulted when I told him, "no, I'll not loan you my transit! I'll come do the work for you free of charge but I'll not let you touch my transit as they are very sensitive instruments that I have to have 'lab certified' each year!" (He thought it was like asking to borrow a hammer to drive a nail.) As we did a lot of cross slope and vertical curves grade checking, I furnished my employees an automatic level with 26x power, (or better....about $2000 in 1988, probably only 25% of that price now). We often worked out to 300' in forward and backward conditions. I would always be on the job the days the Gurley transit had to be used to set horizontal curves. After 1998, I started subcontracting out the "ROADWAY CONSTRUCTION CONTROL" bid item on my projects as I didn't want to pay high dollars to update my survey equipment.

[@sheep1ewe]

I still stuck with the old scool optical tools for the farmwork construction, but on a payed construction work, you absolutely have a realy good point here, no matter how much i love those old optical tools, progress did indeed made them obsolete.

[@briantaylor9266]

I think all of your comments were really about the precision of the instruments, not their accuracy. Your instrument can shoot to within 1/32" (or submillimeter) all day long, but that doesn't mean it's shooting level. If accuracy is important, you need to learn how to field check your instrument, and if the field check reveals it's outside your accuracy tolerance, then it needs to be fixed (calibrated}.

[@Hoaxer51]

And who ever is holding the story pole (on either instrument) has to hold it perfectly plumb or your accuracy will be off.

[@gtbkts]

Thanks for all the amazing content and great videos!

[@WayneSmith-yf3fg]

Back in the 80s I was doing a large deck and was using a water level to set heights on the support beams (it was all I could afford at the time) Had to remember to put anti freeze in it for the winter as it resided in the truck tool box. Fast forward 30 years and the rotating lazer was used to set up footings on a 5 house project. So much easier.

[@tomcor2]

just wanted to let you know. several years ago about 2001, I was using a lazer level to shoot a level line on the side of a building. going across one 8' wide wall, the line dropped about 4" in relation to the block joint.Come to find out the lazer beam can be reflected from windows in nearby buildings it can also be a problem inside when metal studs are used. this greatly upset me at the time as i could picture setting grades for footers and not know that there could be a bad mistake. holding a piece of cardboard on the side of the instrument toward the windows solved the problem at the time, but i never trusted the lazer as much after that

[@bobireland1256]

That’s hilarious! Thanks for the story. Points to the fact that you’ve got to understand all about any instrumentation you’re using!

[@7.3powerstroke6]

the sun, and even now days the reflection off your phone sitting in your shirt pocket can screw it up

[@Hoaxer51]

I’ve been on bigger projects (mostly large road projects but also some big buildings and would do parking lot work) that would prohibit the use of stobe lights on your vehicles, you would have to use rotating lights instead so it wouldn’t throw of the laser on the job.

[@NickRgibbs]

The top of the line lasers have settings for this. My most expensive laser can be set to as narrow of a strobe as 5 degrees. So instead of spinning constantly 360 it will only shoot a 2.5 degree angle left or right from centre position. I was working in a barren field surrounded by rolling hills and 2 of the hills had major highways on them. Turns out the "invisible beam" is visible, especially at night. And they go like 1000ft even if though the one I was using said 300ft(probably only accurate to 300 ft). After a visit from the police about shooting lasers onto the highway I found more expensive lasers can control the strobe pattern

[@GK-gr2mx]

We use that exact laser all the time not most accurate but it has its uses !

[@badlandskid]

I ended up getting a PLS handheld laser that fit in the small pocket on my tool belt. It was perfect for checking plumb on corners when I was running a large crew. It meant I didn’t have to lug a large plate level around the site.

[@kansasscout4322]

I only used an optical level for setting a grade stake for the foundation crew off of a benchmark. Lazers just can't do it well enough for precision. IMO. I wish I had a total station and nearly got free training but that fell through.

[@kansasscout4322]

I did commercial buildings that were large. You could not use a Lazer at those distances.

[@publicmail2]

A "transit level" is a surveying instrument used to establish a horizontal reference line, but when considering the curvature of the Earth, it means that the line of sight created by the level is not perfectly straight due to the Earth's rounded shape, causing a slight "dip" in the line of sight over long distances, essentially following the Earth's curvature; this is why surveyors need to account for the Earth's curvature when making precise measurements over large areas. Looks like that would of been interesting to include in video, albeit negligible.

[@opmsmuT]

Flat earth.

[@joepaullawncare7222]

e = flat

[@SplashJohn]

Interesting and perhaps appropriate to mention in a 1-hour video, but not in a 7-minute video for a general audience.

[@publicmail2]

@@SplashJohn I just thought the flat earthers would have something to talk about.

[@stuartkorte1642]

True……over a long distance. Also, only as good as the set up and the process. Doesn’t impact a standard residential construction.

[@Bojangles149]

I remember seeing those on a tractor and it would control the grading of a field to dead level for allowing water to be aborbed as much as possible. It was interesting to me.

[@markcappiello2315]

thank you so much, i definitely learned something and thats the whole point of watching isnt it

[@bluesagebrett]

As a solo landscaper, the roto lazer is a good friend, but the optical is always a treat.

[@adnacraigo6590]

Always wondered about high tech levels. Thanks.

[@dougveganparadisebuilder5808]

Thank you for the great lesson!

[@slivers4007]

And both have to be sent in and be "recalibrated" and checked every so often!!!!!!

[@TheRealPlato]

I used an M12 laser and it was great to mark a reference plane on many posts in one shot. It's only visible within 10 feet, or in low light, or indoors. Milwaukee 48-35-1211 laser detector claims 1/32" precision at 33' and max range 165'. I haven't tried it and I've never seen one show up on ebay below $150.

[@doaimanariroll5121]

I have one it’s pretty good but you can’t beat a digital receiver where it actually tells you how high or low you are. Also, the laser on those types of lasers are leveled via a pendulum and that makes them very susceptible to vibration, even a big guy walking past might make it vibrate a bit which could mean 3-5mm over a 100meters. If there’s earth moving going on forget about it. You need a mechanically stabilised laser.

[@NickRgibbs]

@@doaimanariroll5121 Yeah exactly. The indoor type lasers are basically a plumb bob with a laser and mirrors shinning out of the top. The further you get from the laser the beam grows significantly. Even a good green laser at 150' the beam is almost 1/4 of an inch thick. They have their time and place. But a rotating laser is completely different technology

[@doaimanariroll5121]

@@NickRgibbs I think you can buy mechanically stabilised cross beam lasers, but they’re a lot more expensive. The laser on the rotating ones still grows in size with distance, but less. Basically, I trust my crossbeam laser receiver to be accurate to 3mm within a 30 meter radius and about 5mm within 50meter. Though I wouldn’t bother if there was a lot of vibrations on site And I trust our rotating laser with digital receivers to be acute to about 3mm over 100 meters ( I’m a civil concreter for reference) so we use laser screed a lot and 3mm over that span is pretty god dam flat, and the panners and trowel machines will sort the rest out. If we need more accuracy than that, which we do sometimes. We will have a surveyor using their jigger(Australian for RTS) with a bunch of datum points bolted onto surrounding buildings ect. At that point your accuracy is determined by thermal expansion of materials, shrinkage, compression ect.

[@snowgorilla9789]

As a shipbuilder am very familiar with both and both have their place.The laser is my go to is much more versatile a fast but for accuracy I agree completely the optic is the way to go and if you need proof back it up with the water level..

[@Hoaxer51]

The simple water level is a good, cheap way to check for accurate heights. A few bucks for some clear tubing, water and a few drops of food coloring and you’re set, maybe a couple plugs. Lol

[@trollmcclure1884]

The weak point with the optical one is the human getting it leveled. If the bubble is not dead center you indicate BS. I was hoping to hear how that works with the laser

[@ColeSpolaric]

It would be nice if it auto levelled

[@connorleon]

Most are self leveling

[@simonosiecki6788]

If the bubble is in the circle on an optical level it will self level.

[@AC.Prince]

The challenge with transit levels is that a person needs to be precise about the set up, where a laser's auto-sets on a gyro.

[@trollmcclure1884]

@@simonosiecki6788 I've never seen a self-leveling optical level. Does it have a battery?

[@906sisu5]

I've had plenty of discussions with guys over the years about the superior accuracy of an optical piece

[@royreynolds108]

I saw a laser level used by a contractor doing grading work in 1985. It was similar to yours and was accurate to 1/16" at 1000 feet. I have a surveyor's transit and wye level that are each over 100 years old and still are good.

[@kendavis8046]

If you are building a nuclear reactor, that 16th of an inch is likely critical. For almost any DIY project I've ever done, it hasn't caused a meltdown, or even a "fall-down". Thanks, as I now have an idea for a Christmas present for my son!

[@NickRgibbs]

I feel like even if you are building a nuclear reactor, the concrete itself is impossible to place and finish within a 16th of an inch. However, its better to plan for some tolerance later in construction and keep every step as accurate as possible

[@Sword_of_Laban]

A Ziplevel (water tube pressure) is also a fantastic tool to have on hand. Would love to have you review that! It has its own pros and cons relative to these levels.

[@nilsschear1095]

Laser level is great for rough grade, but you can’t beat the accuracy of a builder’s level. All carpenters should be competent with an optical and laser level. The sad truth is most guys can’t read stakes, use a theodolite or a builders level. I’ve solved hundreds of grading issues over the years by using a builders level. But I set elevations for all the trades, they use those pins to complete their scope. I have to have the accuracy, if I’m an 1/8” off they will use that to explain why they were two inches off.

[@AnarchyEnsues]

I remember your other video... Allowable tolerances... Laser is good enough

[@Ball_drips]

Have the guy marking for the transit throw his tape up and tell him the measurement in the cross hairs

[@sheep1ewe]

Yes, for things like fondation, roadwork fence and damwalls on my fathers farm i use a scale ruler, or diopter plate for one point lines, for the optical instruments.

[@diverdave4056]

my oh my ... I started using those EXPENSIVE Spectra Physics Laser levels in 1985 ... I was told then they cost $2,000 plus depending on which one you bought ! Sad to say BUT I know first hand on how to check a Self Leveling Laser to make sure its working correctly every time you turn it on ! I have been on many job that were using a Laser Level that was not accurate and needed to be recalibrated . There are plenty of youtube videos that can tell you how to check them . These days you can buy some Sweet Green light lasers that give many layout options

[@bartarkis]

I worked for a surveyor while in college. I worked with a Kern Microwave to measure distance. It also ran slope and direction. We also used a Teldyne Gurley optical. We had to drag a "chain" for distance. In both instances, we always closed the loop of a survey, then took a second set-up to re-check the numbers we gathered at the first set. Second set-up checks how level the instrument was the first time.(I think) We made surveys on properties that had been marked for many years. My boss referred to less precise surveyors as "pin benders" . Just beat it until it suits you.

[@devinsullivan7233]

“Aim small, miss small” Ted Nugent.

[@AC.Prince]

I believe that the accuracy of the transit level decreases with distance. Even if the laser is perfectly level, a discrepancy of 1/8" over 30" will still translate to the same error when measured 200" away.

[@raducristiandumitrescu1806]

From the beginning my gut tells me that Optical is the boss.

[@danthechippie4439]

Have you considered a " zip level "?

[@randomconstructions4513]

The whole thing with the error with the laser level I assume is because of the designers being a little lazy. I assume that they are using a simple 3 diode array, one above level, one below, and a thinner one between. I assume this since using even four diodes they could force the two center elements to have the same illumination and greatly improve the accuracy. I guess that assumes their beam is relatively thin though. Even then, using the same arrays that are used in copiers, fax machines, and scanners and using some averaging you could probably get a level that was good to sub thousandths accuracies.

[@Splatball]

What a day it is we live in that a carpenter and a blacksmith might say "Whatever you gotta do, you gotta keep a laser in the toolbox"

[@disqusrubbish5467]

You're not wrong, but... Most of us don't frame houses that are 300' long (or wide.) And in any event you can put the laser in the middle of the site and all four corners are exactly the same relative to each other - which means level. And you spend all day getting the forms level to within a millimeter and the concrete guys have no way of being that accurate. Or, your concrete guy is the GOAT of concrete and gets it unbelievably level (He'll be Japanese) and the sill plates aren't exactly the same thickness... So, yes, you are correct, but... Get a laser people...

[@dbevit]

In metric?

[@SplashJohn]

Make your own video.

[@100hollands5]

5mm

[@dbevit]

@@SplashJohn And the purpose of this answer is?

[@dbevit]

@@100hollands5 5mm is something the rest of the world understands...

[@SplashJohn]

@@dbevit You want an American carpenter to cater to the rest of the world? As I said, make your own video and cater to whomever you like, using whichever units you like. There are plenty of non-Americans watching this channel who choose to be thankful for Scott's content without whining about something that *will not change.* Also, I can easily convert to metric in my head, so I don't whine about (for instance) European content creators who post metric without conversions.

[@InkedCarpenter1776]

❤❤❤❤

[@disqusrubbish5467]

1/8 inch is 3.175 mm

[@smittywood-wp6he]

Oh yeah did u vote trump?