Origin of Tibetan Script and Shangchung ཆོས་རྒྱལ་ནམ་མཁའི་ནོར་བུ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ལ་དམིགས་བསལ་བཅར་འདྲི།

In an exclusive interview with Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, Spiritual Head of the International Shangshung Institute, Kunleng discusses his research work on the origin of Tibetan scripture, impact of Shangshung on Tibetan culture, and his books covering Bon tradition and Dzogchen practice.

[@myutubelib]

My deepest homage and gratitude to you, Rinpoche, for your gift of unparalleled openness and wisdom shared through this interview. This is truly an eye-opening event for Tibetans who have been brainwashed as kids through school textbooks still used today: That Tibetan civilization does not go beyond 2000 years, that entire Tibet was filled with a huge lake before that, and that Tibetans descended from union between a monkey father (acclaimed as the emanation of Chenrezig) and a demon mother. Hopefully, this interview also gives a "wake-up" call to many so called Tibetan scholars that flagrantly promote the narrative that Tibetan religion and culture are all rooted in Indian culture, and chose to never give an honest look into Bon perspectives. Guru devotion does not mean you should put a blind eye to the truth contradicting your guru. Not only do we have China to destroy our culture, but many Tibetan scholars and lamas have systematically kept us in the dark, robbing Tibetans of their right to know the truth. Those scholars chose silence over truth, and lies over honesty. Lastly, thank you VOA for conducting such an important interview. Here is what I gathered of Rinpoche's interview responses (interview questions omitted to prevent this post from getting any longer): 1. The great motivation behind Rinpoche to dedicate his life researching Tibetan literary and religious history is this: Back in the 60's in Italy, Rinpoche learned that his study on Tibetan language and literature had a limit of 2 years compared to students from China and India in comparable studies for 4 years towards a degree. The reason for this limit was based on misconception that Tibetan language & literature were based on other cultures, namely India and China. Although Rinpoche could not do anything to have that limit removed, he became determined to study further on Tibetan literature to find an answer. He then came across several Shangshung and Bon texts revealing existence of rich literary culture having originated in Tibet through Shangshung. 2. Beyond so-wa-rig-pa (science of medicine), there are 5 sciences known as 'rig-pi-nay-nga' (science of language, logic, medicine, arts, and spirituality), and these have originated in Tibet through Shangshung influences, not spread into Tibet from India or China. And we need to pay great importance to these sciences especially to the science of spirituality, art, and medicine, as they can benefit not just Tibetans, but people throughout the world. Rinpoche researched for many years and published 3 books on these sciences. First two were translated in many languages and the third one is being translated. Just because Tibetan sciences originated from Shangshung does not mean that other cultures had no influence. Of course they did in many aspects, but not to the detriment of it. Instead it flourished. 3. Tibetan scholars throughout the history have made great mistakes crediting India and China as the source of Tibetan cultural heritage. In addition, those scholars have been preaching that the Tibetan race started 2000 years ago with union between a monkey father (considered as an emanation of Chenrezig) and a demon mother, and that Tibet was filled with a lake before that. How is it possible while human beings in all neighboring countries have greatly evolved into sophisticated societies, and yet the Tibetan civilization hasn't even dawned yet? Conversely according to Bon, the Tibetan race descended from one of 3 evolutionary eggs (called 'Sidpe Gonga' - when earth became hospitable) which branched into mankind; the other two branched into gods, and nagas. 4. Before Bon Buddha Tonpa Shenrab, teachings were transmitted orally, but during Bon Buddha Tonpa Shenrab, Shangshung script known as 'Mar-yig' was created and used to transcribe rituals, astrology, etc. Tibetan script known as 'U-Chen' was adapted from Hindi in the 7th century by Thumi Samboda under demand by King Songtsen Gampo who wanted to have a script that is distinct from Shangshung based scripts used by Bonpos. Between king Nyatri Tsenpo and Songtsen Gampo with a span of thirty-two kings, there were writing systems derived from Shangshung, most notably the ancient script known as 'U-Med'. This script is most uniquely common in Bon texts. Shangshung had several scripts known as "Mar-chung", "Mar-Chen" etc. Rinpoche has published few books such as "Zi-Yi-Treng-Wa", and "Nor-Bu-Do-Shel". Rinpoche holds great respect to the reknowned Tibetan scholar Gendhun Choephel. However, Rinpoche believes Gendhun Chophel's conjecture to not be true that U-med was born from U-chen written fast. 5. Further proof of preexistence of Shangshung script before Thumi-Samboda's 'U-Chen' script is that there are only 5 'Del-Dra' (kyi-gyi-yi-he-gi) (grammatical constructs), but in Shangshung script there are 11 'Del-Dra', many of those were even found in ancient Tibetan texts. Songtsen Gampo's intention behind having U-Chen with introduction of Buddhism was to depart from and weaken Bon and Shangshung influences in Tibet. Bon was so influential that even the names of the Tibetan kings were given by Bon priests during Songtsen Gampo. 6. Songtsen Gampo killed the last Shangshung king Ligmincha conquering Shangshung rule. However, Songtsen Gampo soon fell into a life-threatening illness believed to be caused by the curse from Lingmincha's root lama (Nangshed Lhopo). Desperate, Songtsen Gampo had to seek help of Ligmincha's teacher to remove the curse and cure him. When he was cured, Songtsen Gampo permanently offered a part of Tibetan land in central Tibet (Tsang) to the Bon master to show his gratitude. This became the land of refuge for many Bonpos and Shangshung artifacts because most Bonpos were persecuted at the time. The land, later in centuries, became home of the Menri monastery in Tibet. 7. In terms of Dzogchen, it is not unique to Bon. However, Ligmincha's teacher (Nangshed Lhopo) was a great Dzogchen master, Dzogchen teachings was transmitted orally at the time known as "Shangshung Nyen-gyud". There were no written texts on Dzogchen and nor were texts allowed as Bonpos were persecuted. As such, oral transmission was used. Another great Dzogchen master was known as "Garab Dorje" also based his teachings orally. A clarification Rinpoche made was Dzogchen is not to be understood as religion specific. It is not a tradition. Dzogchen is means to achieving enlightenment. Lord Buddha is considered the 12th Buddha in Dzogchen belief which said there were 11 prior Buddhas that existed in different eons (Kalpa). 8. Rinpoche emphatically stresses that Tibetan scholars and people in general should have a mind-shift to recognize that Tibetan civilization is very ancient. He has written several books on this, and based on various astrological calculations and cross referencing historical events, Tibetan literary history is 3,931 years old as of year 2014. This means Tibetan civilization developed in parallel with Chinese and Indian civilizations. This knowledge should come as a great source of pride and encourage everyone to research and study our ancient heritage. If we continue to live in ignorance with belief that Tibetan civilization is only 2000 years old, then our culture appears very shallow to our own detriment. 9. Rinpoche has found great interest in Tibetan music in recent years. This was because Tibetan musicians in Tibet show great resilience promoting their cultural identity, and communicating through lyrics their hardships and degradation of Tibetan culture. Those messages came to Rinpoche's attention, and he saw a need to educate Tibetans and non-Tibetans alike about the ongoing situation in Tibet, not in terms of politics (Rinpoche doesn't involve himself in politics), but from the standpoint of cultural degradation. Rinpoche has so far collected 108 Tibetan songs so far and enjoys sharing it with his disciples. Rinpoche concludes that if Tibetan culture is to flourish, its language and literary sciences must flourish. 10. As an example of diminishing Tibetan culture, Rinpoche shares a story about his visit to Tibet. As he stopped his car to give some pens to school kids on their way, and asked the kids what grades they were in etc., the children only spoke in Chinese to him although they perfectly understood Rinpoche's Tibetan with Khampa dialect. Rinpoche advised those kids they should of course learn Chinese, but they should know the difference between Tibetan and Chinese. In response, the kids spoke in Chinese again. This struck as a great astonishment to Rinpoche, and saddened him. He felt that if within one generation such a dramatic change could take place in young Tibetans, then within few generations, Tibetan identity and culture would be greatly diminished. This concludes my translation of Rinpoche's interview. This interview is so precious I could not simply watch, and not share it with those who do not speak Tibetan.

[@user-xb4pu4gr3q]

This is extremely compelling information. I have before written down as many Tibetan scripts or Tibetan influenced scripts I could find online (Uchen, Ume, Chukyig, Drutsa, Khamyig/Peyig, fast Uchen, the Phakpa script of the Yuan Dynasty, and the Soyombo script of Mongolia), and it seems so unbelievable that fast Uchen could've arisen a hundred or so years after Uchen's creation, yet Ume is said to have arisen simultaneously to Uchen. As a new arrival to this cultural debate, I fully agree with Rinpoche and the Bon-bloc on this front. Ume very clearly could not have possibly arisen from Uchen, at least not without several hundred years of evolution, which we don't see. Do you know how Rinpoche got his calculation of ~3,940 years? I get that there are 60 year cycles and 180 year cycles based on astrological combinations for dates by a dichotomy of animal, gender, and element. However, where did he base the information from to get that specific number? Also, what is the total number of Shangshung scripts? I want to find a formal consensus but there doesn't seem to be any. Collectively, I've found Marchen, Marchung, Pungchen and Pungchung, as well as a script called Drusha. There also seemed to be a script for the country where Tonpa Sherab was from (Takzig). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang-Zhung_language#Scripts I would love to learn more about these ancient scripts so critical to our culture and share them with other Tibetans. Do you know where someone who knows written Tibetan could learn them? Also, personally I think that 2,000 years for a civilization is quite ancient and doesn't diminish any pride we should have for our Tibetan heritage. Hell, other High Asian nations that branched off of Tibet such as Ladakh (since the 800s) and Bhutan (since the 1600s) have relatively short histories. I don't think that should diminish any pride Ladakhis or Bhutanese people would have for their civilizations.

[@jimmytopen2459]

LOVE IT.

[@Bardo0012]

Thanks to your incredible write-up of Rinpoche’s points. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

[@nyuszk]

Thank you so much for interpretation of CHNNRs precious words!🩵🙏

[@dreamadventure8220]

Thank you so much as a Person from Darjeeling who have little comprehension ability on standard Tibetan this has really been helpful in my own personal research on my tribe departure from from Tibet and unique ritualistic and linguistic traits that we still hold which can't found in any of other Tibetan groups.

[@karmarakagme5069]

Very informative and important to know. Thank you. Great program. Love it.

[@HarmonyInTheSpace]

Full translation in English is available here melong.com/origin-of-the-tibetan-script-and-shang-shung

[@jimmytopen2459]

THANK YOU RINPOCHE LA, VERY PRECIOUS INFORMATION LOTS OF US NOT AWARE OF.

[@tashidelek5793]

Thank you Rimpoche for taking the time to do this interview. May you live long and continue to benefit all people.

[@tseringthup2648]

ངེས་པར་དོན་མཁས་པའི་དབང་པོ་ནམ་མཁའ་ནོར་བུ་མཆོག་ལ་བཀའ་དྲིན་ཆེ་ཞུ།

[@taidelek9994]

Very enlighting information. Chaktsal 🙏

[@taktsen8864]

👍👍👍

[@Droghba]

Tibetan should learn real history from such scholar.thank u for reminding.

[@pemajikmey4006]

བླ་མ་ནམ་མཁའི་ནོར་བུ་ལ་ཕྱག་འཚལ་ལོ།

[@introductionaboutthebon3255]

Bon gyaloབོན་རྒྱལ་ལོ།

[@user-wp1od9nw6w]

Много лет назад, когда единственный раз приезжал в Бурятию, великий учитель Намхай Норбу Римпоче, мне посчастливилось присутствовать на его лекциях. Судьба подарила мне такой счастливый случай. Премного благодарна была.🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💖💖💖💖🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥💥💥💥💥🌼🍀🌺

[@Gyurmey]

Wonderful talk.

[@456inthemix]

Please to all venerated Lamas, Teachers and Tibetologists: Please update your knowledge and correct. Thank you Rinpoche -^-

[@christianefiorito6684]

it woould be wponderful if one of Dzogchen communities great Tibetologist wpuld take the time and subtitle this video on this very interesting topic. I know that Rinpoche allways encouraged us to learn Tibetan writing and the phonologie but unfortunately I never made it. I would be very greatful and offer a nice Italian Dinner in return.

[@myutubelib]

I have translated the interview. See my comment. I hope you find it useful.

[@dreamadventure8220]

​@@myutubelibCan you give me Runloche Instagram account? Or any medium to connect with his work

[@nepalibuddhist7114]

Wonderful

[@tomtso5720]

Pay yakpo du 👍🙏

[@tongnyidhontokrinpoche2122]

I am lagye Namchak Dong from amdo zachukawa ཕྱི་ཡི་དགྲ་བོ་འདུལ་བའི་དཔའ་རྩལ་གནམ་ལྕགས་མདུང་ཡིན།། ནང་གི་ཉོན་མོངས་འདུལ་བའི་ཉམས་ལེན་གནམ་ལྕགས་མདུང་ཡིན།། གནའ་དེང་ཤེས་བྱའི་གནས་ལ་བློ་རིག་གནམ་ལྕགས་མདུང་ཡིན།། མདོར་ན་ང་ལ་འཚམ་པའི་མིང་དེ་གནམ་ལྕགས་མདུང་ཡིན།། གནམ་ལྕགས་མདུང་གིས།❤❤❤❤❤

[@tseringthup2648]

བདེན་❤

[@dawalama7919]

བཀའ་སློས་དཔེ་ཡག་པོ་གསུངས་འདུག།

[@anitenzin7724]

.

[@456inthemix]

A real "Kepa" 2 tumbs down by follower of :"I am the Damsi of Gyaluk" who else ?

[@tulkudawa1969]

456inthemix ཡིད་རངས་ཞུ།། བཀའ་སློབ་དོན་ལྡན་གནང་ཤག།

[@HarmonyInTheSpace]

Dear VOA Tibetan, we (Dzogchen Community, ChNN students) would really like to make English subtitles for this video. We already have translation text published as an article. If you could enable "community contributions" function for this video, we can then create draft subtitles that you can review and publish. We hope this is possible. Thank you very much in advance! Elena Dumcheva [e-mail] melong.com/origin-of-the-tibetan-script-and-shang-shung

[@tianyinjia]

Thank you Vajra Sister, I didn't know this was on Melong.com

[@tsetanwangchuk8710]

He was a big liar so far origin of Tibetan script is concerned There is any single good evidence existence of Tibetan script before the Tibetan king Songtsen Gompo VOA interviewer was simply being fooled along with listeners who have limited Tibetan knowledge