OSR is the Carrot Cake of D&D

Carrot cake has changed a lot since it was invented, even if some people say it's one of the oldest confections still eaten today. Similarly, OSR gamers may have lead themselves to believe that this new moment has captured the D&D the way Gygax intended it be played, when in reality, they haven't.
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[@marktan3368]

I always liked the “renaissance” of OSR. Like the Italian Renaissance, it’s a bunch of folks trying to restore the values and aesthetics of a classical. But of course, one can not recreate the past, so a whole new ideal is produced. And it’s wonderful! What do you think the OSR’s Mannerist period will be like?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Wow...... That might be the most thought provoking comment I've gotten. Are we in that period now? Ultraviolet Grasslands? Troika? Mothership? Mörk Borg?

[@pensiv]

@@DungeonMasterpiece UVG: squarely Mannerist; Mörk Borg? Baroque

[@richmcgee434]

@@pensiv Accurate.

[@mrgunn2726]

This from the guy with the post-Impressionist avatar. Come back as Raphael or Jan Van Eyck and we can talk... 🤡🤪🤓🤣 art joke!

[@MarcosElMalo2]

This is a good take. A better take than the “carrot cake” analogy, tbh. Dungeon Masterpiece’s analogy skips over the fact that the original game by Gygax and Arneson was also carrot cake. WOTC’s 5e is merely the latest iteration of the “official cake”, whatever “official cake” means. (Another difference is that no one owns a trademark for “carrot cake” and can’t try to destroy their non-proprietary recipes.) One difference is that the renaissances artists didn’t have complete access to the classical sources. They were lost or destroyed. So the renaissance filled in the gaps, which amplified their contemporary sensibilities. We, on the other hand, do have access to the original game and the early games that came from it. If someone wanted to be truly old school, they merely have to acquire the original games and play by those rules. It’s like eating the original carrot cake. As I mentioned, 5e is also “evolved” carrot cake. Personally, I have no problem with others taking that original carrot cake of Basic and Expert rules and “evolving” those rules to suit their personal taste. I’m certainly one of many currently looking for an alternative to WOTC’s “official” game.

[@themcchuck8400]

OSR isn't a rule set, it's an attitude. It's the belief that the story comes from the actions of the players and the rolls of the dice. This is why reaction, morale and random encounter tables are so critical - they let the DM be surprised by what happens, while telling the players more about the world/environment they are exploring. To mangle a metaphor, the DM establishes the nouns, the players enact the verbs, and the dice highlight the adjectives.

[@mrgunn2726]

You summed it up!

[@anyoneatall3488]

So the story isn't planned by the gm like in most rpgs nor it is made as the game advances like in pbta?

[@TA-by9wv]

​@@anyoneatall3488 The story is generally emergent from play. It's not about the DMs novella or meta plot, but what actually takes place in the adventure.

[@devourlordasmodeus]

Isn't that just D&D tho?

[@ViviBuchlaw]

@@anyoneatall3488 So what you must understand is the loose ideas of "Play Cultures" Basically, 5e typically operates under what some call Neotrad, and that's where the GM has a rough story planned out, and might incorporate Player Backstories into said plot. Other Neotrad games are Lancer, PF2, Starfinder, and DnD 3.0+ definitely OSR is much more about letting the players do whatever they want. There isnt a BBEG, most likely, and the players can go whichever way they want. Old School Essentials, Into The Odd, Knave, Mauritter, are this. And in a story game, tracking details like encumberance is silly, combat takes a back seat and it plays like a story would, and usually generates story from its mechanics. PbtA, Fate and FitD are this

[@panelsofDOOM]

Love this channel and I've been an OSR gamer for some time so I have some things to add. 1. OSRIC and OSE are retroclones of 1st Ed adnd and moldvay-cook B/X respectively. Sword and sorcery is the most popular retroclone basic specifically on original dnd. Matt fitch, SnW's author, is a huge fan of 5e dnd, by the way. He's also considered the guy who laid out the definition of OSR in his now classic "a quick primer to old school gaming." Worth a read if people want to see how this all went viral, however I'd argue the concept has expanded greatly in the last decade. 2. From my experience most of us don't see the OSR as more pure or anything, just a selection of elements of play that have fallen out of favour in the last 30+ years of RPGs and we all pick and choose the ones we like the best and ignore the rest. (Overland travel, dungeon "turns",unleveled exploratory play, and so on.) 3. While traveller is old AF it's not typically considered "osr" largely because of the inclusion of a skill system. Is that a weirdly specific criticism? Yes. Do some of the best OSR "inspired" games like stars without number also take inspiration from traveller and that skill system? Totally. (side note, everyone should read Kevin Crawford's stars without number and worlds without number. Amazing stuff that belongs on every GM's shelf.) For the record I love all kinds of games and over the last year I've played mostly 5e, OSE, and powered by the apocalypse based games. I think we OSR people can be seen as hostile towards other play styles and "bloated" systems but I think largely we just want to play a different subgenre of DnD. Anyways. This channel is great. I'm super happy to be subscribed!

[@TaberIV]

1. Is an important point. OSE is a very faithful reproduction of B/X, so I don't really think the video is correct about this in some ways. I think OSR adventures have moved in a direction that's not the same as TSR adventures though, and I think _that_ is a lot like the carrot cake he is talking about.

[@priestesslucy]

Unleveled exploratory play?

[@sebm.5930]

I'm really uninterested in all of the "roleplay" espoused by popular tabletop channels nowadays. It all sounds like chaos gremlins trying to outdo each other telling quirky stories around a campfire, which is fine, but it makes for a weak overall game by my standards. Character development means so much more in the face of actual game mechanics and not just pandering to the GMs npcs and plot for two hours.

[@MarcosElMalo2]

@@sebm.5930 I don’t completely agree with you, but I see your point. I played AD&D in the 80s, though, and our group was very role play heavy-game mechanics were orthogonal to a lot of what we were doing. We weren’t bending our game mechanics to suit the play (and I personally don’t have a problem with those that do), the game mechanics just didn’t apply. We had a few entire sessions with nary a roll of the die.

[@MarcosElMalo2]

@@TaberIV If B/X Is medieval carrot cake, then 5e is merely the current “official” carrot cake. It’s no more authentic D&D than any other rule set. Dungeon Masterpiece’s analogy falls apart unless he recognizes this. Fortunately, no one owns the trademark on carrot cake, and therefore cannot try to suppress “non-official” carrot cake recipes. Unfortunately, WOTC owns a trademark on “Dungeons and Dragons”, and will try to shut down anyone that claims their rule set thing is “cake” that contains “carrots”.

[@freethrall]

I feel the disconnect between OSR and original D&D is less of a bug and more of a feature. OSR is born out of a romanticization of the past rather than a desire to accurately create it.

[@VengerSatanis]

Well said, hoss!

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

You're definitely right that it's entirely nostalgic rather than experiential. A lot of this has more to do with resisting modern DnD culture rather than specific objections to rules. The Jordon Peterson dig was spot on.

[@TheChoujinVirus]

exactly, folks may remember how 1e/ADnD was a nightmare due to things like how the modules encouraged the DM to be an adversary who will kill the party than the referee and guide. How your character is more or less a build and not your character how combat is meant to be avoided and not won (mostly because a goblin can kill you)

[@TA-by9wv]

​​​​​​​​@@TheChoujinVirus Almost everything you said here is wrong. Only tomb of horrors was really used as a adversial funhouse dungeon. And in that case it's important to remember that most old school games were sand boxes/hex crawls where dungeons can be abandoned for huge stretches of time and returned to when the party is restocked or higher level. The DM was a neutral referee in old school games meant to be impartial, whereas new school the dm is the storyteller and cheerleader of the party. In old school d&d after the first few levels goblins (unless theres scores of hundreds of them) arent a threat for mid to high level characters because there are no critical hits in the game. In fact fighters got a form of heroic fighting where they made 1 attack per level against less than 1 hit die opponents, so they swept through low level minions even more so than a fighter can in 5E. Characters in modern d&d are far more reminiscent of video game "builds' as well. Avoiding combat was a viable tactic, especially at low levels, but a casual glance at any TSR module would make clear that the bulk of content assumes encounters will take place, being either combat or parlay. Again, pretty much everything you claimed is wrong.

[@Sylentmana]

Old School Romanticism?

[@DungeonMiser]

If given a choice between carrot cake with extra sugar and a Hasbro cake with no carrot and all corn syrup and sprinkles, I'll take the former.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

*shudder* ....corn syrup.... Guh

[@MarcosElMalo2]

Prescient comment.

[@asdasd-di4zj]

a hidden truth revealed.

[@AlVainactual]

I think that, like myself, all (D&D) OSR gamers play a different version of D&D even if they use the same base system. With the emphasis on DIY and the "hacking" of rules and imports from other games, every OSR GM has their own version of D&D that they are comfortable with. The amounts of creativity borne from the OSR is truly amazing to see.

[@andrewhaldenby4949]

Great video! For me, I don’t play OSR because it’s how it was “meant to be”. Rather it’s an attitude about danger and player agency that just feels easier to run in BECMI for example. The hobby is now so big, there is room for everyone. I don’t like the more gonzo / outre style of some modern OSR but it’s great it exists

[@felisleo101]

I think the best part of the OSR has not been the mechanical systems, but the feel of the adventures that were made for those systems. Deep Carbon Observatory. Veins of the Earth. The Dark of Hot Springs Island. The hundreds of Dungeon Crawl Classics modules. These evoke a certain raw, visceral horror combined with wonder and reward for creative thinking and exploration that 5E often lacks. But the great thing is, the ideas from the OSR can just as easily be rolled into 5E, Pathfinder or any other broader system. I certainly have utilized these ideas (and creatures) and have not switched over to running my games to LotFP, OSE, OSRIC or DCC.

[@leandronc]

Agreed! That's how I got into OSR in the first place, the modules (you already gave some excellent examples). Took me years of reading modules and stealing ideas for my D&D 5e games before I embraced an OSR ruleset as part of my gaming toolbox (I am partial to Knave).

[@xdude736]

Good video. I think taking OSR back to 0D&D is a bit of a stretch, though. Most OSR retro-clones focus on B/X or AD&D which had a very distinct feel to them, separated by several rules iterations and design philosophy changes from 0D&Ds "character wargame" mentality.

[@priestesslucy]

I mean... Most OSR adherents I've spoken to online seem to have a character wargame mentality lol. Throw the pieces at the dungeon and see if they get lucky enough to survive

[@CrowePerch]

What I like most about the OSR is that it *isn’t* like how Gary played. Honestly the more I read about him, the more I think he’d be considered a bad DM by today’s standards. The Into the Odd stuff like Electric Bastionlands and Mothership are some of my favorite OSR games. Moving forward by looking at what worked with what came before, without just fishing for nostalgia.

[@wanderinghistorian]

Good point. I think labeling anything as the "gygaxian" way is laughable because, like all DMs, his views changed over time. He said at one point that campaigns should have a 95% survival rate unless the players do something intentionally stupid. Most "gygaxian" fanatics believe PCs should be dying left and right.

[@occupationallystrong1606]

I am really impressed with the work you have put into this channel

[@Marcus-ki1en]

As a player of both original D&D and Traveler, and being a Grognard, thank you. You hit the nail on the head perfectly. While there is nothing wrong with OSR, and it can be a great gateway to helping folks rediscover the originals, understanding history is important. I think the most powerful point to keep in mind is "nothing happens is a vacuum". (no Traveler pun intended)

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Haha vacuum

[@mykediemart]

Interesting take and a good history lesson. I have played a lot of rpgs OSR (and not just D&D retro clones) to 5e and even some with (gasp) narrative systems. I think the draw for OSR is not to play like Gary and Dave, but to play with rulings over rules.

[@PulpHerb]

Actually, it is a horrible history lesson given he claims a game published in 1990 was an influence on the version of D&D published in 1974.

[@Motavian]

So there has been a factional rift in the church of "OSR" for a decade, the incredibly doctrinaire adherents of TSR era D&D that you mentioned and the DIY'ers that have given you such gems as Veins of the Earth, FATE zones in games with Gygaxian time-keeping (Mothership, specifically Gradient Descent) & a wealth of great G+ era blogs dedicated to helping modern gamers appreciate the LBB, AD&D, B/X, etc but with "quality of life" improvements (mostly stolen from FATE, LOL). Your point on the anachronism of carrot cake is spot-on, but there is something particular in the kernel of what constitutes the carrot-cake that has made the recipe compelling enough to be reproduced, mutated, altered, etc and however different it is now from what it was before, it's the essence of what ties the two previously mentioned groups together. OSR play (not original, TRVE CVLT D&D or whatever) has a very specific playstyle that is informed by specific, often DM-gated procedures on one side and conversational language on the player side.

[@thedungeondelver]

Ew.

[@nicklikethesoup]

I just want to say that I started watching because there were interesting ideas about DMing from a perspective of experience of different editions. Now, I come for the historical facts as analogies because seriously, it's way more insightful in how one should DM.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Funny how that works out, eh?

[@Allvaldr]

There's a lot of discussion on what the R means in OSR, but to me, this is exactly why it stands for Renaissance.

[@BubbleoniaRising]

26 year old WoW players might struggle with it, but 10 year olds played it right out of the box with no issues in 1980. Cake for everyone!

[@GREENSP0RE]

Speaking of things evolving, I love Mothership, and can't wait for version 2 to come out. If you want space OSR without the horror or one that has already had two layers of polish, check out Stars Without Number. It's basically Traveler but better.

[@CrowePerch]

Stars without number also has a really good faction system that I’ve lifted for other games. Highly recommend

[@KnightKashmir]

I know it's a bit late - but for fantasy - Worlds Without Number is out! Fantastic. Currently my favorite "carrot cake recipe."

[@gradyelliott7594]

I would also recommend Dead In Space if you like Mothership.

[@creaturescavernscrafting2929]

A very thoughtful and well orchestrated video. I also have a desire to eat carrot cake now. Subbed.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Thanks! If I'm ever in r/d I'll look you up! We can snag a beer! Across the mountains from you!

[@creaturescavernscrafting2929]

@@DungeonMasterpiece that would be awesome!

[@vandenburg123]

Not sure thoughtful is entirely accurate.

[@nicolmiller5641]

This is why I use the Rules Cyclopedia. A very early, but not the original. Works quite well and I find easy to run. Also still available in hardcopy, which is not always possible with OSR books.

[@patkelley8293]

I think what drove early DnD success is what's drives OSR. Simple rules with emphasis on innovation and personal preference. Good DMs and engaged players make for good gaming with fair and clear rules.

[@Barquevious_Jackson]

That thumbnail is a beautiful reference to Questing Beast thumbnails.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Here's hoping he doesn't hate me! 🤣

[@Barquevious_Jackson]

@@DungeonMasterpiece He presented your channel and map crows channel at the same time, so I guess he likes you. However, since then map crow has been unfortunately featured again while you haven't. I think map crow is a good artist but a modern puritan knob who has bad takes while you haven't missed with a single video. I'm hoping that you end up the more substantive of the two.

[@QuestingBeast]

I thought it looked suspiciously yellow!

[@glacier68]

Or Professor Dungeon Master.

[@willmistretta]

It really is true. I've supported clone games like OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, and Swords & Wizardry since the very start. Played and enjoyed them. They still can't quite supplant the original texts for me, though. The distinctive voice and presentation, the heart and soul if you will, of tomes like the '70s AD&D hardbacks is a special kind of pen and ink sorcery unto itself. Fundamentally irreplaceable.

[@craigwatkins3569]

Me and the early arrivals will play OSR until everyone else shows up. Then its either pathfinder, starfinder, CoC, or new thing that was brought.

[@Barquevious_Jackson]

4:00 - He made D&D for experienced war gamers and not 26 year old WoW players who watch to much Jordon Peterson. Now that you mention it I've never seen a OSR fan with an unclean room.

[@CrowePerch]

Watch out for lobsters 🦞

[@spacelem]

I'm 40, my first D&D was 3.5e, I'm not a WoW player or a war gamer, I've no interest in Jordon Peterson, and my room is cluttered and untidy. Still a big fan of the OSR though!

[@franklyanogre00000]

@@Barquevious_Jackson Hail Hydra!

[@iantaran2843]

OSR birthed Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. It was worth every trip and fall along the way.

[@Wheggi]

Matt and Stuart created OSRIC as a vehicle to allow the legal publication of 1E compatible material. That’s pretty much it in a nutshell. For that reason alone it is amazing. If you get a copy, make sure to get the version published by Black Blade. It’s a thing of beauty.

[@RawPaint]

A friend recommended your video in a tabletop discord I'm in, and I'm so glad about it!

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Oh nice! What discord!? Tell your friend thank you!!

[@grumpygrognard7292]

Yep, I keep saying that after i got into wargames, i better appreciated the early Gygax rules. I recommend players of TTRPGs play a few old wargames just to appreciate the development of the hobby. As an aside: OSR authors adding optional rules for Ascending AC, is like sneaking the sugar back into the carrot cake. ;-)

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Well said!

[@euansmith3699]

I love how this discussion diverges in to the history of carrot cake.

[@tomydrazenovic7556]

Very sharp analysis! It's so important to take historical context into account. Thanks!

[@joshjames582]

I read an interview with the guys who did the Basic and Expert rules back in the eighties, and one of them (Zeb Cook, who also wrote 2nd Edition AD&D) mentioned that there's really not any one true Old School method because everyone was kind of doing their own thing back then, and what we call the Renaissance kind of glorifies one perceived method of play that doesn't necessarily represent that diversity of styles. I actually really like the Basic/Expert rules and enjoy using them as a chassis for campaigns. They include clear and succinct procedures for both dungeon crawling and hex-crawling and they're simple for new players to comprehend quickly. I kind of do my own thing with them, though. XP for roleplay? Sure. I'm all for it. Milestone XP? Even better. It's a simple little system. I'm not gonna break it by tinkering.

[@nyankers]

Just reading through the different editions, the various rules they have, and how they evolved... before 3e, D&D seemed largely cobbled together through house rules becoming good enough to merit inclusion in a canonical source. Only as of 3e can you really feel the effort to design an overarching system to lead play.

[@pikkumikko9029]

6:05 ''IT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME, NOT THE LETTER OF THE RULES, WHICH IS IMPORTANT.'' p 230 of the 1sr AD&D DM's guide. So in fact taking the old rules and making them what you will of them IS the way gygax intended it. So when OSR re-formats and changes the rules it is more gygaxian in spirit than the original game :^)

[@tkc1129]

I look to OSR for good ideas, not to play D&D the way it was. I like modern carrot cake, too.

[@Hdhdushzhz57743]

I would argue that in a way, use of the OGL is like carrot cake made to counter the exorbitant sugar prices of old, out-of-print editions. Retro-clones were made not only to clean up old school rules, but also because of the exorbitant prices of old editions of the game. The white box edition you often display in this video sells online for easily over $800, whereas I can download Swords and Wizardry PDF for free. As a side note, I do not think the purpose for most people I talk to about OSR is to recreate 1974, but to use a rule system that favors different elements of the game, styles of play and genres of fantasy. Whether using a retro-clone like OSE, or a new game such as DCC, Mork Borg, and Lamentations of the Flame Princess, I think the purpose remains creating new experiences using a rule system or setting that fits the tastes of the table.

[@noffpoppin]

The carrot cake is a good metaphor! In the book The Elusive Shift, I got the impression that different approaches to the RPGs have been around for a long time. Old, new, mainstream, underground, I don't care I'm just looking for good ideas

[@captainnolan5062]

As a wargamer from the 1970s who was there for the creation of D & D and other roleplaying games (like traveler) you make some good points. For instance, there are no rules for wilderness travel and survival in original D & D because it was assumed you were using Outdoor Survival (which I see on your shelf behind you) for those rules.

[@lockstepsavior]

Sorry, being pedantic: You keep saying 'First Edition' and then flashing up a picture of the white box, or the three brown books, both of which constitute 'Original Edition' or 0E. 'First Edition' is the one that came after that with the cool art hardbacks. Yeah, I'll go back to my hole now. Sorry.

[@Eron_the_Relentless]

This video would have sorta made sense if you'd have produced it in 2007. I mean, kinda. There was a larger contingent of "In Gygax we trust" peeps back then but haven't seen them around lately. This just watches like a response to a bad experience with one person or small group, whom you're now attributing values to an entire, much larger group based on said experience. If you're saying we're all like the BrOSR or TSR Purists, well congrats you've met a tiny faction within a tiny faction. And no, we're not. The catalyst for the OSR was "Screw WotC/third edition, let's just play and support the old versions instead using their own OGL against them" It has nothing to do with the sanctity of how grandpa played. OSRIC was initially just a rules reference meant to be easier to look stuff up than the actual books for AD&D (because the prose was impenetrable), it even left out rules that "nobody uses". You can't tell me that's the product and decision of somebody who worshipped the original author. Labyrinth Lord mostly existed to get adventures/support for B/X, even though it wasn't very close to B/X itself. Things have changed a bit since the beginning of the OSR, but nostalgia in and of itself is generally considered a negative aspect of new products and has been waning in recent years. OSE is good because it's a good game that works, not because it's how I played when I was fourteen in '86. That's simply not replicable. Those years are gone. The OSR moves forward, not back. OSE is relatively identical to B/X, that just means B/X is still a good game that works. It being old is neither a benefit nor a detriment. It simply is. Some of us have been around since the beginning of the OSR. I'm in a weird place - I'm an OSR Grognard. Not old enough to be an actual grognard who played in the eighties, but generally older than everyone in the OSR nowadays having been through two and a half editions of official D&D playing OSR games instead. I talk like I know because I know; I was there.

[@SuStel]

The original purpose of OSRIC wasn't even to be an easier-to-understand rules reference for AD&D. The point of OSRIC was to give people a legal way to publish new first-edition AD&D adventures and supplements. They took the OGL and "rewrote" AD&D, just different enough to be able to claim that they weren't stealing any copyrighted text from the books, and then gave everyone permission to write supplements for their game. So now you could write an AD&D adventure, but instead of saying it's an AD&D adventure, you say it's an OSRIC adventure. Everybody knows what that means, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, and it's perfectly legal. OSRIC was released for free, but you weren't expected to use it at the table - you used your AD&D manuals with the new supplements. Just the fact that it existed was enough to make everything legal, and that's all you needed it for. Later on, more people caught on to the trick of using the OGL to create their own visions of perfected D&D clones, and the makers of OSRIC jumped on this bandwagon, offering it in fancy forms. But this wasn't its original purpose.

[@Eron_the_Relentless]

@@SuStel Yep. I guess this part I wasn't very clear about in the post I made several months back. OSRIC was not intended to be a game you play, initially.

[@Kconv1]

This is something I really experienced , they just rereleased 1983's bards tale. So I played it, and damn it... this is the game I remember, even though it is not the game I played, it has automap and save features the original didnt have, but it FEELS like what I remember.

[@SevenStarsandSevenStones]

I never knew that Phil Barker had a hand in D&D! His DBA is a fun historical ruleset, too.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

and was cousins with M.A.R. Barker of empire of the petal throne. Small world, eh?

[@TonyCrenshawsLatte]

Now I want a carrot cake. The modern variety, that is.

[@haveswordwilltravel]

If OSR games are carrot cake, is 5e high-fructose corn syrup?

[@JohnnyMayHymn]

Sometimes you just want to eat a good slice of home made carrot cake as an alternative to the shelf-stable name brand.

[@Arcanum1980]

A valid metaphor, in deed. I play an RPG set in a mythic iron age world with app. 100 pages in the rulebook, 80 of which contain a sentence or two about this system´s deep rooted affinity with the good old BRP system. So far, I have only identified two similarities between them: they both use stats and they both resolve things by rolling dice... the BRP babble is obviously there to attract these hipsters to the game. I.e. a "carrot cake", no doubt.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Funny how that works, eh?

[@georgelaiacona111]

Excellent article. I cut my teeth on D&D and Traveller back in the day. Definitely two different styles of games, but back then, those of us playing them blended a little bit of one into the other. D&D became a little politics and government for the high-level characters, and Traveller devolved into amassing tonnes of credits transporting expensive cargoes throughout the game session, with an occasional fight thrown in. Each fun in it's own way. Champions was another animal entirely, for a different facet of fun.

[@mythicmountainsrpg]

In recent discussions and blog posts I've started to see a spectrum within the OSR community between those that have a purist view of old school games, and those that borrow principles from old school game design and bring them into modern games. This isn't specific imo just to system. For example, although I like some modern gameplay culture like in-depth roleplaying and character development, I don't tend to play NSR games like Troika! or Into the Odd. I prefer retro-clones, OSE in particular. I prefer the old stuff wrt to system. I like them because of all the things you said the OSR has to offer, but find I am seeking something different than TSR die-hards. In TSR modules, life was incredibly cheap! As charming as B1, etc. were, they were very gamey. From a modern point of view, it really is hard to invest in a character the way a modern roleplayer might. I've heard TSR die-hards call my gamestyle "amateur improv" instead of roleplaying. On the other hand, Ben Milton's adventures like 'The Waking of Willoby Hall' and Gavin Norman's adventures like "The Hole in the Oak" use a retro-clone, that is, the very rules of B/X but presented well as you said. But they don't carry that same design intention shown in the B/X "example of play" where life is cheap. In most Gavin Norman adventures "save vs. poison" almost never means instant death, and usually means an interesting situation, like choking on a gas cloud, allowing for more choices. I've started to call this dichotomy in the OSR "Finchian" vs. "Miltonian" OSR. In the beginning of OSE the author recommends two seminal documents for the OSR community, the Finch manifesto and "Principia Apocrypha." In "A Primer for Old School Gaming" it's clear that Finch still wants a story, but his approach is very different. While most OSR people would still consider the examples he gives 'fair' they are nonetheless brutal and unforgiving. It's clear that player challenge is weighted heavily in his presentation of how to play in the "old school way." In "Principia Apocrypha" on the other hand another principle is offered beyond Finch's four zen moments: telegraph lethality. In later conversations with Ben Milton, it's clear that he doesn't just telegraph lethality, he *heavily telegraphs lethality* (see his video "stop hiding traps in D&D") Furthermore, the last line in the document sums up their vision of an emergent narrative: "You will make your mark on the world, be it an unkowingly misleading arrow scratched into a dungeon wall, or a crater where a city once stood." From Milton's perspective, D&D doesn't do as great a job telling big spanning epics as we think it does. There is always this tension between the DM and players trying to craft the story and still just experience the game. In frequent interviews, Milton talks about "diagetic interaction" that is, that the story is simply what happens in the game. Or to put it another way, it's about the shenanigans! Or to paraphrase him, "Let's find what makes roleplaying games special, and just do that." No one remembers the DM's amazing plot about the dragon cult. Everyone remembers stealing the baby dragon egg.

[@VhaidraSaga]

OSE is B/X without the rules and whys. Labyrinth Lord and Lamentations of the Flame Princess are B/X with admitted tweaks. OSRIC is 1e without anything copyrighted, and then there are admitted changed versions of 1e like Adventures Dark & Deep which admits it is 1e with Gygax's proposed changes to a 2nd edition. So, there are people playing the exact same games as before (and some do not even know that they are) and then there re people playing new "improved" versions of the old hame and they know that too.

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Nice video A little history a little humor I still like playing 1AD&D it’s not the original but I think it’s old school

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Adnd is what's up

[@dgthall]

Damn, now I am jonesing for carrot cake. I never heard of the OSR movement before, definitely something to check out... but your points about the historical context of those early games are all spot on.

[@bigbabydoof7657]

Holy shit, missed the Peterson dig the first time I watched this-we love it

[@jannebengtsson7338]

Cannot agree enough! Well said.

[@KnarbMakes]

So, uhh. You got any more of that cake?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Way too much. I was about to throw it out. Lemme know if you want to swing by. I'll save you a slice.

[@samuelskidmore2704]

Another well produced historical ttrpg video.

[@10urion]

I hope this blows up and the outro is perfect

[@BlackJar72]

I learned D&D in 1984 from Mentzer's basic set, so my games actually are typical of how the game was played at that time -- as far as there was a typical way before the internet allowed us to be aware of how those in different groups were playing the game. Of course, the game evolved a lot during the classic era, too. If someone really wants to see early D&D its far easier to learn than the 1974 prototype -- though you might see if differently if you have the mindset typical of current trends floating around your head. I can definitely see how some of the ideas that circulate in the OSR are romanticized, exaggerated, or just different. OTOH, the OSR does have some interesting ideas of its own; nothing wrong with a new style inspired by old ideas. I don't know if the indie game I've been working on would be OSR or OSR-"adjacent" as it goes for the same style of campaigns and adventures as 80's D&D but also the cinematic feel (and logarithmic scale) of Torg while keeping the rules simpler than either. To be fair, I think OSRIC was originally started a reference for those who never stopped playing AD&D.

[@HowtoRPG]

I look forward to chatting with you. A very interesting argument.

[@PichulRixth]

Paleo is apparently just medieval diet

[@mykolalabach2141]

Great quality video - helps people stop treating the OSR hobby like a cult. It's a living breathing game, not some mummified snapshot of rose-tinted glory days :)

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

So well said!

[@28mmRPG]

lol, sorry for necro commenting, I'm currently 57, and grew up with a wargamer group via jr high-school friends. Playing Avalon hill games and seeing D&D hit the shelves in those particular mini-books. I find it odd that some RPGer's out there claim that this version was played "Theater of the Mind". But we saw this as an extension of miniature wargaming, played with minis, and delegating heroes into the fray that did things other than fight on the table. It wasn't until AD&D that the role-playing game that somewhat looks like todays groupings attempt at it, came to be. AD&D was usually mini based but also had the TotM features. I know my 2nd Edition groups were more TotM. Though its funny to see it come back to playing minis on the table again, since the rules are geared that way now.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

THANK YOU FOR CORROBORATING MY OBSERVATION OMFG

[@28mmRPG]

@@DungeonMasterpiece hey... I get flak on this as well by the younger crowd. Keep on creating vids, Im enjoying them.

[@SonofSethoitae]

Jim Murphy has talked a little bit about how, even then, there was a disconnect between the wargamer D&D players and the Theatre of the Mind D&D players.

[@PhyreI3ird]

4:14 I narrowly avoided becoming each of those things and yet somehow still feel incredibly called out

[@percyblok6014]

I get the gist of the vid, but it does seem pretty much "cope". If you're interested in playing "old school" D&D, Old School Essentials will pretty much get you there. It encapsulates the mashing up what happened back in the day between AD&D and the BECMI system. BTW, most of the BECMI original content is out there totally free in PDF form. Sorry, if you like 5e, you do you but there's so much more to be had by going "back to the future".

[@CCMinis]

Look at this rich guy and all his carrots... Eat grass like the rest of us!

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Sugar is less than a dollar a pound!!!! 🤪

[@msouthard8144]

B/X DnD cleaned up a lot of the white box rules formed the basis for many OSR games.

[@shawnfisher9976]

He missed the point.

[@luthersmithers6052]

If "passing a wisdom check" were a YT video.

[@2copperpieces]

Those mouth squelches 👌 that's why you invest in good sound kit

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Mouth..... Squelches???

[@2copperpieces]

@@DungeonMasterpiece first five seconds for me was asmr of you chewing lol

[@hawkname1234]

This feels like fighting words with all the OSR grognards

[@dennislaffey]

Maybe for some. But this OSR guy found the argument interesting and well thought out, even if I don't agree with all of the points.

[@kyrnsword72]

Yep, for me what best brings it all together is Martin Knight's D100 DUNGEON MAPPING game.

[@evelk5233]

This guy is too young to know what actually happened back then. How would he know? I was there.

[@Aconspiracyofravens1]

you have no right not to have 3 more 0s on your subscription number, this is insanely high quality, fix your algorithym yt

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

It's comments like this that keep me going! It's a new channel still!

[@VentureFilmsJake]

Is that the font questing beast uses in his thumbnails? Nice nod if so considering the content!

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

It is! Lol

[@rynowatcher]

I mean, D&D had five versions of the game running parallel to ad&d which they claimed were two separate games. Even in the original version it was meant to evolve and change table to table, that is why there is a tongue in cheek warning for players to not read the dmg. OSR is more of a marketing tool than a guild line. It becomes very vague what is and is not OSR. Even old TSR Era d&d is not uniformly "old school."

[@Alex-sf5uz]

Yeah this video reminds me of a blog post from a few months ago that made a Similar point (that OSR and Old school play are distinctly different), the OSR has some great systems though most are made great by introduction modern innervations to improve on the framework created by these older games (Don't see alot of OSR games use THACO these days)

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Link me to the blog post! I'd love to see it.

[@Alex-sf5uz]

@@DungeonMasterpiece it keeps deleting my messages containing the link, must be an anti scam thing

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

@@Alex-sf5uz super lame! www will this link work com?

[@Alex-sf5uz]

@@DungeonMasterpiece any way it was called 6 cultures of play and was on the retiredadventurer blog im sure if you search that you'll find something

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

@@Alex-sf5uz thanks! I'll look it up!

[@jimparkin2345]

Marc Miller is my spirit animal.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Mine too.... Mine too....

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

I know I've spent too much time looking up obscure comic book lore because for a split second when Marc Miller was mentioned I heard Mark Millar and thought, "What the hell is that pervert doing dicking around in the OSR? I thought this hobby was safe from him!"

[@RanierMedic]

The carrot cake in the thumbnail looks like it came from HEB.

[@asdasd-di4zj]

It feels as if there were a sort of subtle pedantic tone in this video. I believe most of the people that plays osr is quite aware of this. Amazing content in any case

[@WesAllen]

I mean, yah. But most OSR games don’t claim to be OD&D. A lot are linked to Moldvay/Cook Basic and Expert, or AD&D. And the game had iterated from OD&D a couple of steps by that point.

[@WesAllen]

And I should add, “And yah, even those games are carrot cake.”

[@FablesD20]

LOVE THE CHANNEL

[@bellat.1377]

I'm not a wargamer, so I don't care what Gygax wanted. He did have some exciting advice about the situation side of the hobby, though. Good vid!

[@mrgunn2726]

Baron, an interesting and thoughtful video. Playing OSR RAW or as the great prophet Gygax intended is silly. I like what The McChuck said: "OSR isn't a rules set, it's an attitude." I think a lot of folks get that wrong. You are correct, originally OSR rules were created as polished versions of B/X and AD&D rules. But the goal was always to get back to gaming as it was in the late 70s and 80s. OSR wants a return to rulings over rules, where there was more theater of the mind play, and play where players are expected to use creative problem solving, and are not a zillion min-max furry feat driven options. In OSR, you want to be a swashbuckling, sword swinging fighter, ting, done!, in 5e you have to choose your furry, your class, sub-class, sub-sub-sub-class, your skills, and feats: Athlete, Lucky, Dual Wielder, etc. While D&D 5e is fantastic and has some of the elements of OSR play, which is why I think it has re-popularized D&D, however it lacks the depth and the umami of OSR play. Mork Borg, Deathbringer, Knave, EZD6, ICRPG are not retro-clones, but they are simple, fast, and encourage creative, narrative OSR style play. So hipsters will always be hipsters, trying to be cooler than everyone else, whether by wearing vintage clothes, drinking 'artisan cocktails', or making wild claims such as; they invented the question mark. It is not rules it is style and attitude that make a game OSR.

[@swordssolitude3861]

Love a casual Peterson burn

[@FrankyDCrafter]

Damn, I should have had breakfast first. This made me more hungry.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Go eat! Also, what are you having for breakfast? Can I have some?

[@FrankyDCrafter]

@@DungeonMasterpiece i always have eggs, I just mix up what I put in them. Although carrot cake sounds good too.

[@TravelswithRosie]

The edit game is next lever good :)

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

I'm getting better! It's a work in progress!!

[@alejandrogarcia6187]

Superb content here.

[@oldestmate5836]

Cool story and all but does anyone actually think OSR games are trying to be 1980s D&D? To use your WoW diss in the video as an analogy. Lots of people are enjoying Classic WoW but I'm pretty sure everyone accepts that it's fundamentally a different game.

[@Pit_Wizard]

This feels like tilting at windmills to me. I'm not super into the OSR scene, but from what I've seen of it nobody is claiming it's an "authentic recreation" of original D&D rules. My understanding is that it's a milieu of play that aims to capture the spirit of old-school gaming. Is hipsterish toxicity really a problem in the OSR scene?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

There is a sub-faction that can be

[@richmcgee434]

@@DungeonMasterpiece Yeah, there is definitely a part of the community who thrives on telling people they're roleplaying wrong.

[@lockstepsavior]

@@richmcgee434 Not just the OSR community, though. People tell me I play 5e 'wrong' because I won't optimize my character according to a build guide, and that I'm 'wrong' and 'stupid' and 'not a real roleplayer' for liking 4e 'which is an MMO not D&D' and I'm especially 'living in the past' for not even playing OSE, but actually still playing actual B/X with all of its descending AC and race-as-class warts. Everyone is a sinner in the eye of those looking for sin, and there are some people that would rather divide gamers into 'us' and 'them' than ever admit we may be more alike than not. Me? I just want to make it out the dungeon alive with some stories to tell.

[@richmcgee434]

@@lockstepsavior Oh sure, you get that all throughout the RPG community, and D&D has always suffered from edition wars - the 4e hate is mild compared to some of the opinions I used to hear about 2nd edition. Doesn't change the fact that the OSR crowd has some real poisonous folks in it - although I think I reserve the most dislike for the fanatical minimax-or-die folks you see in 4e and 5th. That's really pretty unique to the most recent editions iME.

[@Snyperwolf91]

Its actually not as toxic like in the D&D 5e communities . Especially the CR-fandom and the 5e Fanboys are the most poisonous Communities right now . OSR-communities are mostly chill and have much more interesting and engaging topics too that questions the design and philosophy of TTRPGs while being inspiring for people to make their own TTRPGs too . Its more a hobby-community and less a focused brand community. Thats what i see it.

[@boriscat1999]

I sense that you were really trying to get through this in one take to get back to the most important element, the eating cake.

[@philmitchell12]

Old School Essentials is based on the 1981 Moldvay D&D, not the original pamphlets… not really sure I understand where this video is coming from. Struck me as an argument against something else? Confused.

[@PulpHerb]

I guess those of us in the OSR who started playing in 1977 needed you to tell us what it was like in the years 1974-1976. Thanks for clarifying that for me. Also, it is "Outdoor Survival". It helps your credibility when you remember the name of the game behind you. DBA was not contemporary. DBA was a response to the over-complication of WRG Ancients 5th Edition which dates to 1976. It would continue to a 7th edition in the mid-80s. DBA would not appear until 1990, long after both Gygax and Arneson had left TSR and D&D was in the AD&D2 and Rules Cyclopedia era. A survey of Traveller adventures from the LBB era belies your claim that Traveller was about politics and culture. It was about heists, treasure hunting, mercenary activities, and attempts to make cash from the trade system to the patron rules to adventures like "Kinunir" which included industrial espionage and prison breaks, not politics or cultural development. You also clearly have listened to people who talked about how 3rd edition got back to the 70s in the use of miniatures. While, yes, Traveller did formalize range bands, that is actually an increase of specificity from the typical D&D game circa 1977, the year Traveller released. Measured movement, a la Chainmail, was rare. Many early D&D players never owned the rules and used the alternative combat system in the "Men & Magic" which would go on to become the standard. As for "OSR Hipsters who don't know any better" seems a much closer description to you than a good cross-section of the OSR.

[@sethtipps7093]

Thank you for saying this

[@vermisgood]

I feel this argument is true for 0e dnd and not adnd 1e and b/x dnd. Adnd is pretty playable as is, maybe requiring to use 2e intiative or houserule the initiave system but little else, no?

[@canaryinacoalmine1759]

I just run actual OD&D. I hate when people try to reinvent the wheel and end up just making a worse system (like Shadowdark or Knave)

[@hopefulhyena3400]

As opposed to "d&d as gygax intended" I think it's healthier to think of retroclones as "d&d as [author] understands it", which I think can still be valuable. I usually feel like the differences aren't as blatant as the carrot cake analogy suggests.

[@kevinerose]

This goes back to the concept of "having fun". Playing a game is more about the enjoyment of spending time together with friends. People who like OSR understand that they had much more fun playing the original rule set than today's 5e. It is no small secret that the more rules you have on you the less fun you are having. Plus, I think when OSR was forming, D&D didn't allow the original sets to be sold. So now a lot of people have invested into new OSR rules and these had to be different than D&D. OSR had to fight D&D every step of the way and it was only because D&D refused to release more of the original sets.

[@rolanejo8512]

Very interesting takes.

[@mgorsuch]

Great video, and I LOL'd at the WoW + Jordan Peterson comment.

[@MrPeterReyes]

Same. And when I was done I hit the Subscribe button.

[@StormofSteelWargaming]

Good video, I like the presentation, I'm guessing you're a fan of Legal Eagle? ;)

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

He was a big influence when I was trying to nail down my format!

[@Tysto]

The purpose of OSR is just to recapture the style of play in early D&D, not to replicate it. Modern D&D has strayed enormously from those days. Heroes start off quite powerful and only really struggle when a "balanced" encounter turns out to be imbalanced. The game assumes the heroes can kill everything they encounter, so that's what they do. They go from social encounter to combat and back with very little sneaking thru dungeons, hoping they don't attract wandering monsters.

[@HouseDM]

I love carrot cake. It's literally the best cake and I learned quite a bit from this shpeal, Baron. Thanks as usual!

[@simonacerton3478]

Old School was such a nebulous term that it included GURPS (first released in 1985 as Man to Man) the descendant of The Fantasy Trip as "Old School" Both of these games were carefully crafted with clear rules and in the case of GURPS a high focus on verisimilitude. Great games but "Old School" in the Gygaxian sense. In that context Old School is just "Old School D&D" and nought else. The other games are retroclones or in the case of The Fantasy Trip and GURPS, still in print with little change.