OSR versus AD&D! Who does it better?

OSR versus AD&D! Who does it better? OSRIC, Dungeon Master Guide, Players Handbook, OSR, TSR
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[@aaronsomerville2124]

There's something irreplaceable about the mystical ramblings of Gygax in the DMG. You'll just randomly blunder into sidebars about the magical properties of gems (that's a thing?) or advice on taxation. If you haven't read the 1E DMG at least once, you don't know anything about D&D.

[@mstephenjoy]

"If you haven't read the 1E DMG at least once, you don't know anything about D&D." Something in that rings very true for me. I think he conveys better than anyone else that this game is always a work in progress because there are as many possibilities as there are DMs.

[@blockmasterscott]

Omg, this is so true LOL!!

[@TheGreenKnight500]

At this point, I see the AD&D DMG as sort of a big box of tools. You'd never run AD&D RAW unless you were insane, but it's got a lot of useful things to extract out of it.

[@jimamos7984]

True that. And, yes, there's real world references to gems having magical properties. I even have a book originally published in 1987 that discusses such.

[@midnightgreen8319]

AD&D is legendary for a reason, it's awesome. That said, 30+ years of learning about how to layout books really helps playability.

[@midnightgreen8319]

I started gaming in 1994 with the Rules Cyclopedia. That's still my favorite game book ever.

[@archersfriend5900]

I think the Wotc books have gotten worse.

[@midnightgreen8319]

@@archersfriend5900 Layout wise, no. Absolutely not. Is the game shit? Yes, it absolutely is.

[@archersfriend5900]

@@midnightgreen8319 I think AD&D is kinda awesome. I think it's better if the rules are followed. I think the book layout has gotten worse in 5e. There are several campaign without indexes or glossaries. It's awesome when you need to look up something.

[@midnightgreen8319]

@@archersfriend5900 AD&D is a mess. Got a whole chart just for ability scores. I'm not a fan. The B/X game was so much better. Don't think I'm defending 5e. I absolutely hate that easy mode trash.

[@spudsbuchlaw]

Indeed, 3rd edition, or 3.0 as you say, AKA DnD 3e was where the Open Game License or OGL was created to make DnD "Open Source", as long as you abide by and append the OGL statement in your book. I say "Open Source" because they limited what you can use to a document, called Standard Reference Document. That's how Pathfinder 1e worked. ADnD is different enough to get around that a bit, so luckily we can basically make whatever DnD stuff we want, sans trademarks like Melf, Greyhawk, Beholders, DM, etc

[@9bitjim]

When I got the red dnd basic box set I thought the 2 books were the beginner version of some hard covers. So I got the 2 Ad&d books and didn't realize they were different systems. I was 14. We had so much fun.

[@zcmail99]

Same thing for me and my friends

[@Merlinstergandaldore]

AD&D 1e is certainly my go-to, but I appreciate what OSRIC accomplished. It's an extremely well put together reference document, but it did lose some of the nuance of the system it was fixing, things that I certainly miss in practice. I love Old School Essentials as my retroclone of choice, though, which takes it's place alongside pure AD&D 1e as my favourite.

[@mikep6263]

Your comment about being able to find rules in the DMG made me chuckle! We used to sit around the gaming table and quote page and paragraph about some obscure rule and how it was worded differently on another page or in some other book and then "calmly" discuss which version we should use. But this was half the fun of playing the game! I'm still running 1st ed. after 40 years, and I'm still finding things in the DMG that I never knew were there or just plain forgot about. But for new and/or younger players wanting to get into old school AD&D, OSRIC is the way to go.

[@mstephenjoy]

Wow, that brings me back. Thank you for the comment.

[@dsan05]

I love AD&D, but if I were to run a game now using this style, I'd either run Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy (Player's Tome & Referee's Tome) which is Basic/Expert but with AD&D separate race and class options (as well as AD&D monsters), or OSRIC which is just a fantastic piece of work. Back in the day, we "graduated" from Basic Expert, and if we didn't understand an AD&D rule (which was most of them as often they were hidden beneath several layers of Gygaxian verbosity) we'd just use the Basic Expert rule. Pretty sure that was most people's experience! Looking through the Combat section of OSRIC was great though. I had lot's of, "Oh, so that's how it was meant to work!" moments.

[@mstephenjoy]

That's awesome those are great rule sets.

[@dsan05]

@@mstephenjoy enjoyable video. Well done.

[@mstephenjoy]

@@dsan05 thank you :)

[@percyblok6014]

Yes, yes AND yes. I started with the red basic set and then went to Walden books and started buying the AD&D books. At the end if the day, trying to dovetail the systems together was half the fun. I still have the AD&D books (DM, PH, MM &FF), but have decided to use the OSE Tomes when running the game and of course reserve the AD&D books as the ultimate arbitor of D&D truth and guidance... LOL.

[@MarkCMG]

Thanks for the video! I dig deep into the DMG and other 1E AD&D materials on The Okay Grognard Show. I still run a 1E AD&D campaign in Lake Geneva, WI, birthplace of D&D.

[@ravenshadowz2343]

After years of not having the AD&D books, rebought them, off of Amazon, and Ebay, mine look almost as if they are still new. I would not try to use them to play AD&D with because of how old they are, and I would not buy the POD because the covers are just not the same and does not have the feel of the originals. I agree with you OSRIC is more well suited to to playing AD&D, because of how well organized it is. I enjoyed your video very much! :)

[@mstephenjoy]

Thank you :)

[@w0197]

I like playing Basic Fantasy Roleplaying Game. it is a generic osr based on the classic rules. it is also free but the books are super cheap if you want a physical copy as well. I love playing with my daughters who are both younger.

[@slaapliedje]

A whole lot of the flavor for the old school RPGs is simply the artwork. It just makes me happy for some reason. Also think the artwork is better in PF2e vs PF1e. Like you can feel they became 'safer' for some with 2e. In a similar fashion that 2e of AD&D 2e's artwork became less about demons and devils.

[@mstephenjoy]

100% agree. The older artwork gave the game a real sense of danger. I think the hysterical Satanic panic of the 80s caused the publishers to tone the art down - sadly.

[@slaapliedje]

@@mstephenjoy Ha, I still have an awesome story about that time... I was in middle school, and they had an after school thing for parents and students. I thought it would be hilarious to go, so my mom and I watched as they of course mentioned D&D as being Satanic, and then went on to talk about music. They said Heavy Metal music was Satanic, of course. And specifically mentioned Motley Crue and Depeche Mode as heavy metal... I practically fell down laughing... Best part was that when I got home to tell my older brother about it, he was sitting in his room with D&D books all over the table, and Motley Crue blasting on his stereo. That was before he turned into a dick, which is a story for another time...

[@garrick3727]

I always found the original TSR works, all of them, to be somewhat disorganized and confusing to use. The books improved massively with Wizards of the Coast, although they lost a ton of their charm. Currently I am using Old School Essentials because it puts ease of use above everything else. If I have a criticism it would be that they intentionally copy old school D&D rules, and explain them well, but they keep the rules warts and all. There's nothing wrong with that, but personally I would prefer something that is equally well written and presented but smooths off some of the rough edges. I have several other OSR products, like Basic Fantasy (smooths out rules, presentation basic but ok) and Dungeon Crawl Classic (way too dice/table heavy for my liking), but I've yet to find one that is well presented, relatively simple, and great right from the start of play (OSR suffers from low levels being a bit of a slog).

[@mstephenjoy]

Thank you for the comment.

[@anymajordude87]

I just got hardcovers of the Old School Essentials rulebooks. Love the presentation, but after decades of playing modern D&D, I am making house rules and putting them on book marks in the appropriate pages of the book. I might move on to concisely worded post it notes. Basic Fantasy is one of the sources for my house rules, also the single saving throw from Swords and Wizardry White Box.

[@mstephenjoy]

@@anymajordude87 I love the Old School Essential books because they are such high quality.

[@garrick3727]

@@anymajordude87 I pretty much did the same thing. I even went so far as to use the same fonts and presentation as OSE for my house rules because I liked it so much. This was during covid when I had way too much time on my hands.

[@SwordlordRoy]

General feel I've gotten was that OSRIC is the ideal for playing, it's the book you hand to your players and so on, but the 1e DMG and expansion books (perhaps even the two monster manuals and the fiend folio) are excellent DM resources...of course the Unearthed Arcana, dungeon survival guide, and Wilderness Survival guide have some player use as well (alternate races and skills), but that's up to the DM to decide.

[@BX-advocate]

My favorite is playing Basic/Expert using Old school essentials.

[@grymhild]

I started playing Moldvay basic and expert D&D in 1981, and started AD&D in 1982. I think OSRIC explains the actual AD&D rules a lot better than Gary Gygax's ramblings in the 1e DM's Guide, especially initiative. OSRIC has better rules reference, AD&D has more flavor

[@Fnordathoth]

I definitely do not like player info and DM info being in the same book. I have no problem with them reorganizing each to make it more accessible but it should have been two books in my opinion.

[@mstephenjoy]

The rules being altogether might encourage rule lawyers. It might also frighten away new players. I can see that.

[@9bitjim]

One of the upsides to 2 books is its cheaper for a player to get the player manual to start playing. I'm starting basic fantasy and it's 1 book but delivered is about $5. Super cheap You could literally buy 4 books under 20$ and hand them out for Xmas haha

[@Fnordathoth]

@@9bitjim I've got all the Basic Fantasy Books that are in print, and all the ones that are pdf only at the moment; I love them.

[@gmee123]

Nice thing getting the PDF, you could print your own parts and basically make your own player info apart from all the DM stuff

[@sophie9419]

Gosh, no wonder I had issues trying to set up a dnd game with my dad's old copies of ad&d dungeon masters guide and monster manual when I was 12! Literally didn't even know there was a basic version or that the players guide existed.

[@mstephenjoy]

I have such great memories of dnd when I was a kid. I had no idea whatsoever what I was doing either but somehow I think that made it more fun.

[@Phsstpok]

I always imagined that the AD&D dungeon master's guide order mirrored how Gygax came up with rules while questions and situations popped up in his game... starting with general thoughts... and character creation.... how many spells .... what is alignment...etc.. while later there are notes for npcs, building strongholds.. and arial combat... it always felt like some sort of printed journal...

[@josephmoreau9615]

Thanks for making the video! The OSR game I have found to be the most enjoyable for me has been Lord & Dragon.

[@mstephenjoy]

Something I really love about the OSR is that there are so many variations people should be able to find the rules that suit them best.

[@scottwarren3948]

Where did you get that OSRIC? Mines an A5 and that size looks so much more manageable.

[@mstephenjoy]

I think lulu.com but I'm not 100% sure.

[@TenchiBushi]

I started with the Basic Set in 1979. Then got introduced to AD&D in 1980. I played a few campaigns of 3.5 in the early 2000's. I just started a 5E game 4 weeks ago. It's different flavor from AD&D. Our DM has brought an AD&D flair to our game. Resource management, strategy & role play are key . I haven't played OSR yet.......

[@mstephenjoy]

That's awesome. I think 5e has a lot going for it especially for new players but OSR is my favorite :) But whatever flavor it's all good fun.

[@ryanthomasjones]

I played a little AD&D 2e back in the day, but I've played so much 5e now that I've completely forgotten how it worked. So I ordered my 1e manuals from DMsguild. I have had the hardest time getting my mind around why Gygax set everything up in terms of inches, like it was supposed to be played on a grid, but yet you don't have the gritty tactical decisions like you do in 5e. OSRIC has been really helpful for making down how combat was supposed to work in 1e.

[@mstephenjoy]

I was a little mystified by a lot of things in the DM's guide :) I'm glad you're trying out OSRIC, it's a lot of fun.

[@PirateMF]

It's in inches because Gary was a wargamer of old and D&D was, arguably, a wargaming supplement

[@ryanthomasjones]

@@PirateMF OSR people all say that. And yet as a 5e player, I come to AD&D and see zero reason for a tactical grid. Theater of the mind is difficult in 5e, while 1e begs for it. Where was the war game in AD&D?

[@PirateMF]

@@ryanthomasjones It's all over. # appearing in the Monster Manual, spell descriptions and a section on distances and ratios where he mentions using 1 figure as to creatures in combat. Using inches does not mean using a 1" grid. You just use a measuring tape. Interesting note, Gary said that if you do use grids, to use a factor of 1" = 3 ⅓' to fit three characters abreast in a ten foot corridor.

[@ryanthomasjones]

@@PirateMF Thank you , this was a very helpful answer. I appreciate people who know this stuff helping out. No grid. That alone helps me move past my misconceptions that I'm bringing to OSR. The problem is because of misconceptions I'm bringing from the modern version. In 5e, rounds are 6 seconds. Within that, each player gets a turn that is comprised of an action, a bonus action, and a move. We use optional rules for flanking, so position on the battlefield is very important. You choose exactly who you are trying to hit, and you will likely change position several times during a given combat. Ranged shots have a penalty for cover if shooting into melee. So when I come to 1e, I see a 1 minute round composed of 6 second segments. You only get one action for the entire round, so combat goes a lot slower. You only get one action. A move constitutes your action, unless you are charging. Once melee is engaged, there is very little movement around the battlefield to gain tactical advantage, and you cannot choose which opponent you are trying to hit. Ranged shots into melee are super dangerous since you can accidentally hit your own party members. I'm not sure I agree about the scale. DMG 228 and PHB 39 say that 1" = 10 feet in the dungeon, and 1" = 10 yards in the wilderness. Maybe he gave a different scale somewhere else? It seems like the inches were important to Gary, but not so much the actual scale itself? I don't know, I can't quite wrap my mind around it, especially in comparison with 5e, where 1" always equals 5 feet. So in comparison to 5e, the scale is confusing, the options for actions are limited, and there seems to be less tactical relevance to positioning. All the exact opposite of what I would expect from a wargame. Does it make sense why I am puzzled?

[@CDblade]

So I know Dungeon Crawl Classic is more OSR aligned and not true OSR but it's still a really fun game.

[@mstephenjoy]

I imagine it is. I love the idea of the funnel and I love the artwork. Thank you for commenting.

[@VMSelvaggio]

There is definitely something to be said for clean, methodical layout skills that somewhat lack in the meanderings of Gygax's PHB. The index could have been cleaner, especially when I was 12 and trying to dig through things to find a point of reference, or trying to search by "subject matter."

[@jjr6929]

Liked, subbed and of course.....a comment. I much prefer the older game style.....gimme a homebrewed sandbox any day!

[@mstephenjoy]

Thank you 😊

[@spaceranger7683]

My understanding is the OSRIC was intended to be a consolidation and clarification of the many years of 1E material that was conflicting, scattered, and at risk of being lost to time. While they had to omit copyright and trademark material owned by TSR/WotC/Hasbro, they essentially created the "final statement" of the 1E AD&D rules. While I have the old books from back in the day, I would likely give my players OSRIC to use rather than the original books if I were playing the 1E AD&D ruleset.

[@mstephenjoy]

Thank you for commenting. OSRIC does leave out a lot of material that was in the original but I think it was stuff most people skipped anyway.

[@andrewdestefano4143]

I don't know why I read the title as "OSR versus ADHD" and the whole video I kept thinking, "When is he gonna talk about which is better for someone with ADHD?"

[@mstephenjoy]

That's funny, now I'm thinking about that 🤔 which would be better 😅

[@parttimed.m.1111]

I love that you feature ose funness ;)

[@WarIsOver-ifyouwantit]

is the 2nd edition of the dungeon master guide easier to navigate?

[@mstephenjoy]

I would say so yes.

[@shallendor]

The 1E DMG is the best DMG i have ever seen!

[@gmee123]

How so? For its time when it released it was certainly fantastic, but nowadays, people have reorganized the content of the book and made it 10x more accessible.

[@parttimed.m.1111]

Loved your video. My preference is old school essentials

[@mstephenjoy]

Thank you :) Old school essentials is awesome.

[@michaelwallace6851]

OSE Advanced is basically how we, in my crew, played AD&D 1e. We did use the SM/L damage though, which I wouldn't use today.

[@yagsipcc287]

I am using Shadowdark to run a megadungeon made for OSRIC and it is going well :-) I am using OSRIC AC and XP I homebrewed Shadowdarks healing via sleep to make it less overpowered. I am going to order a Hardback copy of OSRIC for sure to use. Lots of cool stuff in it :-) One thing does it have the stuff needed for making strongholds/castles? Just curious thanks anyway

[@mstephenjoy]

I don't believe it does. I know Swords & Wizardry proper has 2 pages dedicated to construction. Blood & Treasure (available on Lulu) has a little more on the subject but it's still only 2 pages also. I thought I had something that went into a lot more detail but I can't remember where or what. If I find it I'll post it here.

[@yagsipcc287]

@@mstephenjoy Cool! thanks I was just curious I am in Ireland so going to order this on Lulu (much cheaper than shipping from the US) Thanks for your help :-) not a big deal to me tbh.

[@mykediemart]

The 1e DMG is the goto OSRIC is better organized and should be as its a reference.

[@donniejohnson7439]

Wonderful video I too have a fascination with white osr And although I do remember the old days of playing AT&t as the step up, or rather back from the Redbox given to me so I can stop bothering my father and his friends when they were playing white box so I was born in the trenches of the stuff and although I miss all the old editions, a tired old brain doesn't want to have to put up with all that paperwork anymore and it seems a bit harder to afford the old stuff anymore My only problem was not your your argument for I agree with it wholeheartedly but the choice of book you chose to represent the Parthenon of osr games White box is King! This is better than having my old white box d&d set back, my beloved thief has finally been given back to me There were three reviews I watched before I bought it and yours was one of them Words cannot begin to describe my gratitude for the world's greatest $5 book

[@mstephenjoy]

Thank you so much for the awesome comment. My favorite is White Box too. I used OSRIC as an example because IMO it does a great job of emulating the original AD&D rules really well. IMO White Box emulates the original D&D white box edition rules better. IDK just my opinion :)

[@donniejohnson7439]

@@mstephenjoy your channel is blast thank you very much

[@mstephenjoy]

@@donniejohnson7439 Thank you :)

[@donniejohnson7439]

I have to admit I'm a little lost on one particular rule and I've looked up and down for clarification on the internet but could not find it Maybe you can be of some assistance, sir Combat fury, The fighter ability how does it work? If a third level fighter was fighting three goblins Does the fighter get three attacks on the one goblin that he's attacking or does he get three attacks on each of the three goblins I was moving suppose he's actually engaged trying to pry open a stuck door when the three goblins attacked him, even though he's already engaged would he get the three attacks on the three goblins The wording is very simplistic and I'm not sure what they're getting at perhaps you may shed some light on it

[@mstephenjoy]

@@donniejohnson7439 I believe Combat Fury is a throwback to the original rule which was a fighter got as many attacks as he had levels against 1hd (or less) creatures. In this case I believe Combat Fury means the same thing. So against 1HD creatures a 3rd level fighter would get 3 attacks a round. Likewise a 10th level fighter would get 10 attacks per round. I like to think of this as a fighter's blender mode :)

[@percyblok6014]

You're not a D&D player if you haven't read or played AD&D og. Sorry, you just aren't.

[@mstephenjoy]

Powerful statement. I'm not sure I'd go that far but I agree there is something missing for those that haven't played it.

[@AAron-gr3jk]

I believe 3e (or derivative) will get a revival soon after 6e release. OSR already covered 1 and 2e, and others already did 3e (castles and crusades etc) Even 4e has seen an osr remake (13th age)

[@mstephenjoy]

I hope so that would be amazing

[@VengerSatanis]

AD&D is part of the OSR. So is everything before 3rd edition.

[@josephlawter2994]

Pretty sure OSR stands for Old School renaissance, not Old School Roleplaying Game

[@mstephenjoy]

You're probably right but I've heard it said both ways. The first way I heard it was Old School Roleplaying so it's what stuck. I think it's a little like how Shakers became known as Creepers in Minecraft.

[@josephlawter2994]

@@mstephenjoy fair enough :)

[@gmee123]

Here's my bottom line..I'm sticking with the older stuff because there is so much content and the feel and flavor of the play style is just so much more enjoyable. 3E+ just hasn't held my interest as much. All these new additions of D&D that come out are nothing more than the company trying to keep the doors open. If they would focus hard on content instead of feeling the need to hit the reset button every 7-10 years, the amount of amazing content would be endless, but I get it, have to pay the bills somehow and as long as us players / DMs see the next new and shiney, we're gonna bite.

[@TheJadedFanboy]

How about how one is original material and the other copy/pasted what was already written

[@mstephenjoy]

Your name suites you 🙃

[@TheJadedFanboy]

@@mstephenjoy Gotta balance all that Joy 😁

[@ancientvaults]

OSR= Old School Renaissance and was never meant to only cover D&D or even TSR. Tunnels and Trolls is OSR too, for example.

[@gmee123]

This concept is soooo hotly debated lol The original "intent" from everything I have read is it was referring to DND, then others started cobbling other things into the idea of OSR.

[@ancientvaults]

@@gmee123 the difference is: I was there on the conference calls, I created the TARGA YahooGroup, and I made the system agnostic game flyers for that group.People may debate all they wish, I was there. Raggi was also in on those calls, as was Victor Raymond, feel free to ask the people who know.

[@xxredjayxx]

OSR wins

[@kyrnsword72]

Yes OSR is a little better. If OSR and DCC had a baby it would be like a game system I really love called D100 Dungeon by Martin Knight which I really love now.

[@mstephenjoy]

Thank you for the heads up. I've heard of the system but haven't played it yet. There are so many systems right now it's hard to keep up :)

[@bobstevens4104]

AD&D played RAW is objectively better. Just ask the Brosr!

[@mstephenjoy]

You know, I have never played it exactly as written. I'm not sure I've ever played any ttrpg exactly as written. House ruling and making things up on the fly to keep the flow comes too easily for me. I'd love to play in an exactly as written AD&D game one day. 🤔

[@parttimed.m.1111]

Is that 3lbb real??? It looks way to good of condition but I need to ask!

[@mstephenjoy]

They are Real. IDK how they've stayed in such good shape.

[@parttimed.m.1111]

@@mstephenjoy that's amazing 👏 😍

[@tedskullhammer]

This is like asking, who portrayed Napolean better, Napolean Bonaparte or Joaquin Phoenix, lol

[@satturnine7320]

Tactical Studies Research That’s the name of the company It’s easier to recreate something than create it in the first place And we never got to see a Gygax 2e either OSRIC has a good layout but omits a lot of rules especially for combat which makes it easier to understand but lacks the depth of the original It’s a B/X clone with the advantages of AD&D 1e, yet simplifies combat to the redundant by eliminating Weapon Speed Factors, AC Adjustments and and imo a terrible interpretation of spell interrupts and missle fire ratios The fact of the matter is and always has been is that most players are not as imaginative as they think they are and AD&D exposed those wannabes, chewed them up and spit them out It was a nerds paradise Times have changed since then I remember when teachers would fail you for using adbridged references for book studies Gygax wrote comprehensively where everything today is a quick reference I get it and I’ve read countless posts online regarding the proper interpretation of rules but with it comes a lot of cynicism Proper understanding needs optimism and contemplation to follow his logic while also not taking discussions out of context by skipping over previous statements When you update something, you lose some of its original meaning Other the other hand, if you’re a noob OSRIC is worth the purchase

[@coldstream11]

What ? Osr vs ad&d lol this is non sensical

[@jiujitsuguy74]

Why not compare to 2e? Anyway, 3.5 is best. 😇

[@Shamefulroleplay]

As OSRIC is a take on 1e not 2e.

[@jiujitsuguy74]

@@Shamefulroleplay a decidedly inferior version, imo, but I can understand the appeal.

[@Qwerty95ish]

​@@jiujitsuguy74The problem with 3.5 is pathfinder 1e just did it so much better that there is no real reason to play it. AD&D was very diffrent from later issues.

[@user-pg3pe4gx4p]

3ed fixed the combat mechanism. Most OSR is based on 3e.