Here Are The Benefits Of An 800 Volt EV Architecture - Is It Really That Much Better Than 400 Volts?

[@RivianDad]

Hey Kyle, I’m always impressed at your amazing ability to talk for 15 minutes (or more) without stopping to gather your thoughts. And all the while educating and being very cogent and detailed in your descriptions. Thank you so much. I learned a lot.

[@MrZimmmy]

I refreshed my understanding of basic electrical terminology. What Is a Watt? Watts are units of electric power. Think of wattage as electricity at work when heating or illuminating a room in your home. Take a portable electric space heater rated at 500 watts. The space heater consumes 500 watts of power when it’s turned on. What Is a Volt? Voltage is the pressure that forces electric current to flow though a wire. In North America, utility systems typically deliver electricity to your home’s service panel at 240 and 120 volts. Major electrical appliances like ranges, clothes dryers, water heaters, air conditioning and space heating systems typically operate at 240 volts. Everything else runs on 120 volts. What Is an Amp? Amperage measures the rate that current flows through an electrical circuit. If voltage is like water pressure, amperage is like the rate of water flow. “Amps” is the common shorthand for this. Now, I'm going to listen to Kyle's minilecture again about I^R, and the pros/cons of 800V v. 400V architecture

[@Jeff-wb3hh]

Kyle, there are a lot more advantages to using a 800 volt architecture. I just read an article titled "The 800-volt evolution that’s reducing EV charging times" February 17, 2022 by Justin Mulfati. He mentioned thinner wires are need meaning less copper and lighter weight. Also, smaller motors are required that give the same power, which would also reduce weight. He said, "Smaller motors can also be used without sacrificing power. In fact, more power can be transferred with less loss, and space gains can be used to add more battery cells.". Reduced weight, of course, means an increase in range.

[@samdcbu]

I would love a more in depth video about 800V and electric vehicle architecture more generally. Really get into the electrical engineering.

[@johnpoldo8817]

When Kyle refers to P= I ^2 R, he refers to power loss in charging cable and vehicle’s charging system. You are paying for that power loss. It’s the primary reason why kW on charger display are higher than vehicle’s display. There’s much less heat generated and wasted when you reduce current by 50%. Therefore, a 900v system is more efficient.

[@e-redj]

At last, a balanced opinion on system voltage. Yes, you nailed it very much. If you want to really have high power charging with really short charging times you need to go up with the voltage. BTW, the cells have their own chemistry defined voltage, the current they see is dependent to the amount of cells you have in parallel. With a 1p connection all the cells see all the current with a 5p connection the cells only see a fifth of the current, but always referenced on the total current the system is getting. And one last thought, the smaller the cells the more cells you need to achieve the total capacity you want. The more cells you have the more variability you get to achieve a good balance between system voltage and current per cell. The downside, small cells have worse volumetric energy density, they can be more expensive per kWh of capacity and you have a more complex battery because of the higher amount of parts. Sorry, but today I did wake up with the nerd hat. 🤓

[@shep64]

I’m far from an EV nerd but my feeling on any camera, computer, tablet, cellphone is to get the best technology you can afford at the time because sooner than later there will be technology advances that you will make your equipment obsolete. With that in mind - I bought the Ioniq 5 SE in May for less than $50,000. I can live without all the luxury add-ons in the other models but I wanted the best battery pack I could afford. Actually with my trade-in, federal rebate, deposit and no sales tax it was around $27,000. I’m hoping it will last at least 10 years but I’m sure there will be plenty of advances in new batteries and charging equipment in the next decade.

[@rcpmac]

$27,000 doesn't mean anything without identifying your trade in. Was it an Audi A7?

[@tomm5936]

Scott I’m with you. I chose the EV6 for the same reasons but could have taken the Ioniq 5. I’m becoming the EV nerd and still believe it was the right car.

[@shep64]

@@rcpmac Toyota RAV4

[@johnpoldo8817]

If new technology, including bells & whistles, is very important to you, I think you will want to trade in that EV after 3-4 years. Newer models will have so much more technology whether it’s range, charging speed, acceleration, comfort, styling, etc that you will want something better. Forget about 7-10 years for how long you hold onto an EV.

[@shep64]

Bells and whistles aren’t important to me but batteries and charging are important. You can have sunroofs, automatic rear gates, chilled/heated steering wheels, Bose surround sound stereos, large frunks, doors from Back to the Future, etc. With that being said I’m sort of fascinated by the Aptera!!! Really hope they can make it into production and add a 3rd seat (they can do away with the “knock” door opening). Also not sure how it would drive in the snow.

[@andrewoneil8535]

Good video and would love to see more stuff like this.

[@zenxyphen4443]

I work in Electric Transmission, great analogies and info! I appreciate you keeping us up on the new things in the EV world!

[@tazeat]

Depends on the car and it's purpose. For a bigger battery, high consumption vehicle, it absolutely matters. As we go forward, trucks like the F-150 Lightning are going to have to move up in voltage to bring charging times down which is absolutely going to be a competitive feature against competitor vehicles. It's the one thing they can do to make EV towing doable, going up in battery size can only scale so far. And as they scale to F-150 volumes, costs will have to come down as well.

[@TheAdventureAuto]

Personally I think 400v is fine. My car is usually done charging faster than I anticipate anyways. Whether it's worth the extra cost to have it just slightly faster...who knows.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

Personally i think a working vehicle, safe, cheap, swift, sustainable is fine. And i am a electrician working with low and high powered, low and high voltage etc. pp.

[@TheDanishSpaceman]

Today’s cars do not benefit from 800V. The limitation is coarsely how fast are car makers ready to degenerate the battery by pumping 250+kw into the battery. When 350+ becomes a norm due to better and maybe bigger batteries, then 800V+ may be the best way to go.

[@davidcottrell570]

Where I live, there’s a handful of high speed chargers. Most level 3s are 50 kW - roughly equivalent to a 200 amp service at home per charger. The reality is that servicing 350 kW chargers takes far more power infrastructure than there currently is available except in big places like Walmart, so it takes a while to upgrade services without a big investment across the board. Like you, I’m happy with what we have - a half hour is plenty of time to use the bathroom and grab a snack. Even topping up on a 50 isn’t so bad, given the charging curve above 50% on my Volvo. Five years from now, maybe we’ll be able to take advantage of 800v systems like they do in Norway, but the big thing at the moment is being able to get an EV!

[@andyfeimsternfei8408]

KW = volts x amps. If you have a 250KW charger the current is 250KW/400v = 312.5 amps. At 800v the current is half or 156.25 amps. Amps determine the cable size while voltage determine the insulation rating. Losses aren't really an issue as the cables are short. There is an increase in shock and arc flash hazard at the higher voltage. Finally 800v semiconductors are readily available, and there is nothing special about them over 400v rated ones. I routinely work with such devices rated over 1500v and they cost no more and are easy to source.

[@mrhickman53]

My premise is that the designer maintains 500 amps as the target charge current in order to maximise charge rate (minimise charging time). Since lower charge times minimises the disparity between BEV and ICE I submit that manufacturers might shade toward optimising the charge time in order to get the vehicle sold at some expense to the battery lifetime. If the charging current is constant between 400 and 800-volt systems, my assertion that, for a constant battery pack energy capacity, the current doubles for each cell in the 800-volt pack is valid. I am not asserting that manufacturers of similarly-sized vehicles will automatically double the peak charging power for the 800-volt vehicle. I am only pointing out that shortening the charging time relative to the 400-volt vehicle that is limited by the 500-amp limit of the charger cable can come at the cost of a lower battery lifetime.

[@davidbaker9943]

Ah makes sense 800v would be much better given everything. Just wondering how much the parts actually cost.

[@andyfeimsternfei8408]

@@davidbaker9943 800v is not better and may actually be more dangerous and harder to deal with. And parts are readily available up to 1500 volts.

[@omelborpon3159]

As you say, doubling the voltage can half the amperage. Half the amps can mean less heat losses in the same size cable. Heat loss may be negligible to you, but any heat loss is a waste. And yes, there is heat loss as shown by Kyle in other videos. Why do you think that charging cables are actively cooled? In another video Kyle actually put a damp washcloth around a Tesla connector to cool it, and the Supercharger responded with higher charging rates. Andy, seriously, if you think heat loss is not an issue, please stay well away from designing EV charging stations.

[@andyfeimsternfei8408]

@@omelborpon3159 Sizing cables properly and cooling them deals with the heat issues. Going to 800v introduces many safety issues. 600v is the limit for most AC circuits the public interacts with. 800v will led to many new regulations and safety requirements. The added risk and cost is not worth it. I have worked in the power industry for over 40 years.

[@mhsohel47]

Tesla model S plaid can take 5-33% at 250kw flat. That's unbelievable with 400v tech. How do they do it? It's great engineering. And heat loss is around 10% which is in line with 900v tech like lucid. And their cable is thinner than any 800 changer (like electrify america). And the interesting thing is that, their v3 (250kw) charger's cable which has a higher ampere is thinner than v2 (150kw). How? I also thought that higher amperes need thicker cable but tesla defying something? Its great engineering and innovation. Hands off. Tesla is really years ahead.

[@lucistnik]

700 amps and really short cable attached to the stall

[@mhsohel47]

@@lucistnik yep that impressive

[@johnpoldo8817]

V3 is a thinner cable because it is water cooled. You can hear the Supercharger pump and radiator fan come on when charging at high current. That sound is absent at V2 chargers.

[@johnmarkowitz8087]

I heard the consensus among component suppliers is 800V is the future and higher voltage parts will cost less in coming years.

[@gregkramer5588]

I agree completely. 480 volt components were relatively common before the advent of EVs.

[@ladonnalewis4296]

This was a great video, loved it. I love learning about things like this so keep these videos coming! Thanks!

[@Hotrod66100]

your comments are right on the mark. 400v architecture is great, and works well. The GMC with Ultium tech and switchable charge structure to 800v will work awesome when the infrastructure for charging electric vehicles catches up. Most of North America is behind to have available infrastructure to easily change from I.C.E vehicles to electric. And speaking from Vancouver island BC Canada where we have a lot of Teslas we still struggle with high end charge stations. Still we have to keep in mind we are at the beginning of this evolution. Love all your shows keep up the great work.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

Great discussion! Kyle, please do an in-depth video with charging station tests including E-GMP cars. I really want to see the difference between a paired and solo configuration ChargePoint CPE-250 DC fast charger. Don't forget to use an ODB2 adapter for all the battery data. So far, I've only found videos from Bjorn showing this in-depth.

[@Dive-Bar-Casanova]

Thumbs up Kyle. Outstanding video.

[@cordkretzschmar5693]

I sold my Kia E Niro a great Car except of charging. I was going to the EV6 and I would do it again. In the Niro it needs about 45 min to get 50kwh into the batteries. In the EV 6 it needs 15 min for 50 kWh. And in both cars you can drive 200 km with 50kwh on the Autobahn. With 130 km/h . ( 81mph) So for roadtrips it is far better. Drove 6000km since July. Trips of 700 to 1000 km a Day. No Problems. Good charging infrastructure in Germany and north of Europe. Ok Tesla with 400 V can do the same. But I think 800 V is the future.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

Cool, ID Buzz needed 24 min for 50 kWh

[@Pneuma40]

.Seems that if you double the voltage - you half the amperage for the same power....allowing for lighter wiring, smaller motors You could go with 1200 v but there is the issue of insulation and shock......

[@PassportBrosBusinessClass]

I subscribed to your channel weeks ago. You're doing a great job with these videos - explaining and real world Testing EV.

[@2011ppower]

Good video, clear explanation 👍 I agree for most 400volt is fine better to concentrate on efficiency which needs smaller batteries and then you don't need high charging rates. Also as lot of us will mainly charge at home at 7kW!

[@TalismanPHX]

Great information Kyle 👍 A deeper nerd-ier dive into high voltage ⚡️ charging would be awesome

[@garyulwelling7675]

Love it. More please.

[@jai.shah007]

was this a full one-take, no cuts video..?? I didn't see any cuts (except intro/outro)... if it was, then that's superb production quality.. very few content creators can do it.. kudos..

[@frodemarkhus3692]

Thank you Kyle.Good to know all this about 400 ore 800 volt

[@__DexJames__]

I pull into a gas station, I put in 93 octane, easy peasy. Now if I charge an EV I have to calculate if I should go to a 400 or 800watt, level two or super charger and so on and so on. Makes my head spin. Good to know that the car and charger can communicate, but still, mind blown. Glad you have a handle on all this. BTW, good to have met you this week end at Fully Charged.

[@Jeroenneman]

You don't "need" to know any of this. I've had slow and fast petrol stations in the past as well. Besides, who cares when your car is charging while you sleep. I couldn't fill up my car while sleeping, now the EV charges while I do other stuff.

[@ouch1011]

I disagree with the statement that 800V architecture components are harder to manufacture. They just aren’t as widely available. The lower amperage is actually easier on most electrical components because the higher amperage requires wider tracks on PCBs, larger wiring, larger conductors overall and more cooling for the same power. Higher voltage requires better isolation but can use smaller conductors and less cooling for the same power. Higher voltage can also help to reduce the size of motor components as long as they are also running at the higher voltage. Again, less amperage means smaller conductors. Since electric motors are basically electromagnets comprised of several wiring loops, smaller wires means smaller and lighter motors. You also mentioned DC fast charging, but I think that is a substantial benefit to the higher voltage. My Ioniq5 charges 230kw at 300A. Something like the BMW iX charges 200kw at 500A. There is a HUGE difference between 300 and 500 A, especially considering that the equation for resistive power loss that you mention squares the current. 300 ^ 2 = 90,000. 500 ^ 2 = 250,000. That’s not a small difference, and all of that difference is loss of efficiency. Even if there is no difference in the battery itself, there is a huge difference in the amount of energy lost in cabling, charging hardware, motor hardware, inverters, etc, plus the additional energy needed to cool components that are heated up due to that energy waste. I believe some EVs that charge at extremely high amperage (like Tesla, BMW, etc) have to limit their charging speeds specifically because the cabling and connector get too hot.

[@goldviper5280]

Thanks Kyle. I had no idea what 800v really did.

[@jpnw3272]

This was awesome! Thanks for explaining it so clearly! I was listening to Bjorn Nyland from Norway about this as well about 2 months ago. Sounds like the benefits of the 800V architecture is not there yet. Hopefully the future! Wonderful video!

[@Seitenwerk]

Why is it not there? 800V has multiple advantages: faster charging, less weight, less heat, more power, easier power output. You can see those advantages with the Hyundai ioniq 5, or the Kia ev 6 Gt going up to around 280 km/h

[@jpnw3272]

@@Seitenwerk Watch Bjorn's video on it 2 months ago. He goes on a rant for about 30 minutes. The name of that video is "Why 800 not in EVs makes no sense." On the photo, it states "The 800 Volt Hype." It sounds we are almost there, but not there yet. Bjorn explains in detail. And Ioniq 5/Kia EV6 doesn't have preconditioning, though the Genesis EV60 does. I heard those two will have it next year? I have no problems with 800V architecture.

[@David_L3]

Great video describing voltage current power and losses had a good level of detail.

[@tommckinney1489]

As you mentioned, E-GMP and GM have overcome the cost negatives of 800V charging by engineering better systems. That allows them to take advantage of the faster charging. My guess is other manufacturers will take the same route, either by licensing E-GMP or GM tech or developing their own. At the end of the day, 800V will be the superior charging system (IMO).

[@anthonyc8499]

Does 800v enable faster charging at higher states of charge because there's less overall resistance than 400v?

[@abraxastulammo9940]

Even chinese LFP battery cars like BYD Tang have the higher voltage. 🤷

[@StevenHoagland]

Great explanation! I love this stuff. Keep it up.⚡

[@ericcindycrowder7482]

The BMW iX M60 is a $110,000+ car with options…..it better be fine! Problem is, not all 350kW DCFC units offer 500amps, so its slim pickings for the BMW to get it’s full charge rate. And you’re right….the individual cells have no idea of the total pack voltage. Each cell is 3.7v nominal, so when 100% SOC cell voltage is about 4.25v and at 0% SOC around 3.4v maybe I’m not sure. LFP and different chemistry will be different I think. Every pack has their cells wired in a combination of parallel and series, so what determines the voltage is the number of cells and the combinations of parallel and series wiring.

[@jsigmon88]

Great video. Only thing of note that was left out is that Tesla somewhat cheats the system vs CCS by dumping crazy amps to reach max pack curent even when voltage is low.

[@jorgecintron9674]

Can’t wait to see the Lucid content!! Let’s go!

[@davidfulginiti5985]

Cool, thanks- -I’ve got a clue now.

[@thom-lov]

Great explanation Kyle, definitely learned some more EV tech details in this video!😊

[@MarkLLawrence]

Only a benefit if the charging network is up and running and not out of service 😉

[@hazmatt81]

Not sure if you e seen the article that came from an institute in Idaho claiming they’ve been able to test and claim that they’ve figure out though AI/algorithm to reduce charge time by 60% (10%-90%). This would get charge time closer the same time of filling up a tank of liquified dinosaurs. They’re continuing to test and prove it out but will be very interesting if this plays out and can be a simple software update to all EVs and continue this revolution. One of the last steps to help alleviate the range anxiety and complaint of charge times with EVs. Keep up the great informative videos!

[@USUG0]

I would say that the 800V system could potentially future proofing your car. If and when charging stations will be able to supply 300-400kW, you should be able to take advantage of it, rather than being stuck at 200kW. On the other hand, when that will happen, battery technology will have progressed quite a lot in the meanwhile. In the end, if it doesn't come at extra cost for the end user, why not?

[@smartroadtrip]

I think what GM is doing with switching parallel to series to get the higher charging voltage is a great idea and other manufacturers should do that too. It doesn't even need to be on a battery pack level - each battery pack contains a number of battery strings, each at 400 volts - you could have contactors that switch the connections between those strings from parallel to series in whatever configuration is necessary to get all kinds of multiples of 400V voltages.

[@Dive-Bar-Casanova]

Benefits to 800 Volt. Hyundai/Kia solved the EMF feed back issue with the 800v architecture. DC motor speed is proportional to voltage; you need higher volts to overcome the higher back EMF that you get at higher speeds. We EV6 owners have the volts. :)

[@AlexandreMoleiro]

I²R is not a logarithmic curve, it is quadratic

[@joseclaus7224]

He was trying to impress everyone!

[@HandyDan]

Ohms Law, Volts x Amps = Watts, 746 Watts = 1hp. So higher voltage equals less current, high current equals heat, heat equals thermal loss. So higher voltage can use thinner power cables and have less overall energy loss. But over 400volts has enormous spark gap danger so extra insulation, more thorough software engineering to prevent accidental possible contractors from closing if any part of the HV is exposed 😳 etc.

[@mhsohel47]

But my question is why is the tesla supercharger's (400v) cable thinner than 800v charger cable (electrify america)?

[@abraxastulammo9940]

@@mhsohel47 Good question, maybe they have a more clever custom solution vs standard cable or faster derating vs the thicker cable because of the typical falling charge curve of Teslas or they get away with it because of cable shortness.

[@mhsohel47]

@@abraxastulammo9940 Model s plaid can do 5-33% @250kw flat in 8 minutes 650 amps 400v. How is that possible with thinner cable where taycan can do 265 kw 5-50% with 800v 500 amps charger with thicker cable. 800v with 100kwh battery does not make sense now. Maybe a bigger battery pack is like 150kwh-200 kWh+ makes sense. But for now Tesla proves that with great innovation and engineering we don't need 800v which costs more. Don't complicate it when it is simple. 800v is complicated and not cost effective imo.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

@@mhsohel47 It does not really cost more, see the Ioniq 5 base price which is lower than Tesla I believe. Trucks charge at Ionity at full 350 kW speed till well over 90 %, maybe that is why the cables are bigger - or Tesla should sell their high tech cables to the charger industry. ;⁠-⁠)

[@HandyDan]

@@mhsohel47 shielding insulation

[@dfeick]

Kyle, This a bit off topic, but recently did road trip through Louisiana in my M3 - the superchargers charge by the minute in that state as do others and have different tier pricing. It is very confusing. Would love it if you did a video on how that works, clarify tier pricing, Pro and Con etc of price by minute v price per kwh.

[@justfadge]

I learned "West Virginia" as a good mnemonic long ago for "Watts = Volts times Amps", so if you've got double the volts that gives you more Watts (or watt hours charging) without needing crazy high amps.

[@AllElectricFamily]

Great topic, you should do more stuff on this. Thanks

[@mikebroom1866]

The Lucid deep dive in the motor from earlier today really sold me on them.... if only that car didn't cost more than my house (and I work from home and drive less than 10k/yr)

[@Ficon]

Great video, love the tech details. Hyundai has the advantage of being an industrial giant and not "just" a car manufacturer so I imagine their total R&D capacity and economies of scale dwarf even VW Automotive Group. It feels like car makers are trying to carve out niches because the EVs are turning out to be so similar - everything is a 5-second car with 270 miles of range that charges to 80% in 25 minutes.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

What has this to do with the batteries? Neither Hyundai nor Kia, VW, Ford, GM produce the batteries or charger, inverter, nothing. You must ask Samsung, LG, Northvolt, Schäffler, Bosch, ZF and others i don't know about. Just one question: Why does Tesla NOT use 800V Batteries? Because they are not needed in "normal" vehicles. Semi, farming machines, ships, airplanes are a total 'nother beast.

[@gregkramer5588]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 FYI, CATL is the largest followed by LG, Panasonic, Samsung, BYD and SK Innovation respectively. All these batteries use the standard 4.2V to 3.4V range from fully charged to discharged. The 800V part is all about how they are connected together and the charging circuitry. More voltage = less current for the same power. (V*A=W) The advantage of higher voltage is pretty clear for the automotive market. Including Tesla, I would expect them to change at some point. They are not needed of course but 800V is still desirable. Additionally the charging cable which is heavy and expensive can have half as much copper if you double the voltage.

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

@@gregkramer5588 i did not order them by size or sold cells etc. yes.

[@USUG0]

indeed, it might have something to do with their investment in Rimac. It would be interesting to know if that's why their cars have an 800v architecture.

[@gregkramer5588]

@@wolfgangpreier9160 I was just trying to clarify batteries vs packs and add some details. When 800V batteries was mentioned that could be confusing to some people. It is an 800V configuration, same batteries.

[@evmatt]

I caught a viewer at a charger and had a great chat about charging. The next 12 months will be really interesting with increased number of EV’s and the structure. Here in the UK it’s going to be a struggle and the consistency of charging has a massive effect on the que time. However I have noticed that the business cars allow time to catch up on work in your EV office. Have we created a new wave of mobile offices?????

[@newscoulomb3705]

1:49 Just dropping a nerd line here on LFP. While the voltage range is narrower than nickel batteries, that doesn't seem to be the main difference in terms of charging. LFP cells typically have a voltage range of 2.5 V to 3.65 V, while nickel cells typically fall between 2.8 V and 4.2 V. However, the difference appears to primarily be in the intercalation, where LFP appears better able to absorb current throughout its charging cycle and requires a significant saturation phase after peak cell voltage has been achieved. Thicker electrode nickel cells typically have similar current absorption as LFP initially; however, after ~50% state of charge, they start to significantly taper for the remainder of the charge cycle. Thinner electrode nickel cells, on the other hand, are capable of either absorbing massive current at low states of charge with a gradual taper for the remainder of the charging cycle (e.g., Porsche, Lucid, Tesla) or absorbing relatively high current until ~80% state of charge, followed by a sudden and significant drop off in charging current until the completion of the charging cycle (e.g., Audi e-tron).

[@teslatim78]

Nerd level follower here!

[@coolpix222]

Manufacturers need to all move to 800 V architecture. This is needed if mass adoption is the goal. At the same time, there needs to be a lot more DC fast chargers out there to keep pace with the number of electric cars.

[@Majorme2]

I’m impressed with your understanding of the systems..I got a better idea how this stuff works.. but it basically Greek to me

[@Timo-qb1gf]

You completely skipped the other aspects of the 800V systems in combination with SiC inverters. The SiC transistors enable you to up the voltage and switching frequency allowing different kinds of control strategies while bringing up to 5% efficiency gains. So even if for charging 800V is not really required it does bring efficiency gains for the powertrain.

[@joseclaus7224]

Plus a 800V inverter would be lighter (less copper)

[@gwieser]

CCS has no limits on current, it just ensures downwards compatibility. Tesla has more than 500A on their European V3 chargers. They know the charging curves of their vehicles and thus they know for how long they need to handle more than 500A. It’s all about cooling the cables (and plugs).

[@bobqzzi]

Excellent explainer

[@Paul-cj1wb]

800 volts (and higher) is actually cheaper to design and build once the manufacturing has been converted to it. It's only costly to those that designed everything for 400 volts architecture to begin with to now have to covert over to 800 volts. That's why Hyundai/Kia can start their Ionic 5 under $40k and the EV6 at $43k because their E-GMP platform was designed with 800 volts architecture from the start. Tesla has to be given a big pass, simply because when they began over a decade ago 50kw was considered "supercharging". So going with 400 volts was state of the art back then. No need for any higher voltage as no conceivable charger higher than 400 volts at the time would be needed even if that speed would be tripled. You mentioned the fact that it's why all high transmission lines use super high voltage -- MOST are actually at hundreds of thousands of volts high. But you left out part of the reason and just left all to "losses" but discounted the "heat" portion of it. A more illustrative example is to note that if that wasn't done, the cables would have to be a hundred feet in diameter. Another way to visualize it is, if instead of upping the voltage you up the amperage to get the same power, then those same thin cables used now would literally burn in less that one second. That's right, in LESS THAN ONE SECOND. That's how dramatic voltage versus amperage is. And that was the genius of Nikola Tesla to come up with transformer for upping and lowering the voltage that allowed him and Westinghouse to beat out Edison and his DC electricity network that could only go as far as 1,500 feet at the time. You mentioned the "I squared times R" equation, but the key to that equation is the "squared" portion. And what that means is if you double the amperage to get the same power without upping the voltage you don't simply double the losses, but you quadruple them. Therefore, you essentially also quadruple the heat. This is why current Teslas can only maintain that high rate of charging on V3 superchargers for a very short time before overheating, despite Teslas having superior batteries, cooling, and charging technology. Why do you think their cables are so short? Unlike what most people think, that it's for better aesthetics, and that's part of it, yes, however, it's actually for engineering's sake. The Cybertruck, (whenever it's released) will be 800 volts architecture, and the Semi will use even higher voltage. It will be using "mega-chargers" as in megawatt. It's why their 4680 design have all those little tabs -- so they can be cooled or heated from the inside, not just the outside as it's done now. That cooling (from the top and bottom -- ala Lucid) will be displayed/revealed on the Semi and Cybertruck. No need to tip their cards just yet.

[@mhsohel47]

Agreed. But model S plaid can take 5-33% at 250kw flat. That's unbelievable with 400v tech. How do they do it? It's great engineering. And heat loss is around 10% which is in line with 900v tech like lucid. And their cable is thinner than any 800 changer (like electrify america). And the interesting thing is that, their v3 (250kw) charger's cable which has a higher ampere is thinner than v2 (150kw). How? I also thought that higher amperes need thicker cable but tesla defying something? Its great engineering and innovation. Hands off. Tesla is really years ahead.

[@Paul-cj1wb]

@@mhsohel47 Yes, however, the 800 volts architecture Lucid models do it 0-46% at 290kw. And the dream edition has a proven range of over 500 miles doing 70MPH on tests performed by real owners and users, not simply a company's claim. Yet, as you said, Tesla has superior engineering, but is hampered by its 400 volts architecture. There's no better example for the superiority and efficiency of 800 volts than that on both charging AND discharging. Here's another example. If you were to charge an EV at home using the standard 120 volts that North American homes use, it would take 2 to 3 days to charge to 100% depending on the battery size. Yet, when a 240 volt plug is installed, it charges to 100% overnight. Yes, because you're forced to use two 120 volt cables the amps are also incidentally doubled, however, in Europe, which uses standard 240 volts, the amps are the same or lower than the standard North American 120 volt plugs and charge EVs overnight all the same. How is that so difficult to understand or not see the huge difference in simply doubling the voltage?

[@mhsohel47]

@@Paul-cj1wb Hmm, but do you know that, plaid is not actually not that far off of EPA estimate. Let explain: Plaid did 300 miles on highway test with 21 inch wheel which epa is rated 348 miles (highway and city combined). In highway, it is about 340. In 70 mph higway test it did 300 miles (inside evs) 100-0 but did not use boyond zero percent. There is about 20 miles of range beyound zero (indivual test). So actual range is 320 of 340 epa only 20 miles less where lucud is 15 miles less of epa. And tesla can also use 240v ac wall charger that can charge it to full in 8-10 hrs.

[@seacow2001]

Come on Kyle. Release that bmw ix road trip video already. Never before have I want to see a road trip video so badly.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

Fun fact: the MCS Megawatt Charging System is up to 1250 V & 3000 A 💪

[@biglee13m]

The EGMP is an example of Hyundai Motor Group has advantages over others. They do almost everything in house. Parts are coming from their own shelves. Yes smaller automakers do that too but Hyundai does it at a massive scale.

[@bradh6185]

I never knew there were these two versions of the Volt.

[@EVAdventuesRob]

I have a Lucid which is fast charging when EA can do it. I just ordered a Mercedes EQS which only charges at 200kw max, but, it seems like it maintains higher voltage longer and so is able to come close to a higher voltage system in the real world.... thoughts?

[@matthewspry4217]

MR MONEY 💰

[@djprojectus]

Why you ordered a EQS also if you have Lucid? Just curious.

[@EVAdventuesRob]

@@djprojectus I am selling my Tesla Mdl S. I trade cars a fair amount.

[@djprojectus]

@@EVAdventuesRob Ahh,ok.

[@noway6238]

Im wondering if there's a hidden buffer in the EQS pack that allows for a higher kW over a larger SoC curve like the Audi ETron. Im also curious how these battery pack will fare in degradation over 10 years

[@PeterGregg]

Since you didn't mention it I will make the assumption that my curiousness is a moot point. It the higher voltage car more dangerous in a varieties of accident situations. From spontaneous shorts, to actual collision accidents, a lightening strike, to anything that would put a person or persons in harms way? I know this is a very amateur question, but t was nagging me :) Thumbs up, great video 😊😊😊

[@jeeplife5262]

Once you go over 50 volts DC, you can be shocked just by touching it. So, safety wise, there’s really no difference between 400V or 800V. As this video explains, it’s more about reducing the current flowing through the wires, motors, etc so that things don’t overheat and likely will last longer. As electric vehicle volumes ramp up, the higher 800+ volt systems will become common place. Auto companies know how to drive down component costs quickly…

[@troosimimimmi]

ist actually safer because the cable takes less damage per charge

[@davidjohnson7633]

Excellent information, I really appreciate the deep dive! On the other end of the spectrum, I’ve heard there is a significant energy loss when charging a given vehicle with Level 1 vs Level 2. Why is that? Have you done any tests to quantify the discrepancy between energy from the home charger compared to battery uptake along various charging systems? That would be very interesting to me.

[@bob15479]

Doesn’t an 800v vehicle have dramatically less copper mass in its HV wiring? Isn’t there an argument I be made here for resource conservation? It seems to me that 800v should be mandated long term

[@Bud_Terence]

It also depends on the lenght of your wireings. An inefficient 800V wireing (cable across the whole car) can be as bad as an efficient 400V wireing.

[@joseclaus7224]

@@Bud_Terence but an efficient 800V cable is 4x as good an efficient 400V cable (cable CSA or weight wise)

[@brandenflasch]

high 400V is a great sweet spot. It’s a shame that Ford products are such low voltage.

[@anthonyc8499]

Ford definitely erred by going so low on the pack voltages. It's arguably why the Mach-E has its performance limitations and Ford is needing to replace first iteration high voltage junction boxes.

[@brandenflasch]

@@anthonyc8499 I agree - they made it that their higher power vehicles are needing a crazy amount of current.

[@dorhocyn3]

This discussion makes me think of the difference between diesel engines and gasoline engines, the diesel engine has very high compression. Yet to this day they are both being used and have found their purposes. Now one thing with Tesla, they have been making cars for a while now and I have figured out how to minimize the distances between contactors batteries and motors so running a lower voltage doesn’t give as much drop if the distances it Hass to travel or short and efficiently laid out.

[@Foersom_]

Many trucks and buses are already class 800 V EVs. Class 800 V is needed for high power charging but also for EVs with high power motors. This to keep loses low and hence significantly reduce waste heat.

[@sharmaanshul123]

Kyle: RJ said in an interview that Rivian was designed grounds to be able to upgraded to an 800v architecture. What was not clear from his comment if he was talking about making some changes to existing Rivians (Halving p and doubling s) or if it would be for new vehicles. Not much information online on whether Rivian is planning 800v for the Max battery pack and if that's what is causing the delay. An episode dedicated to that would be great.

[@larry4fire]

Ultium battery packs come in three basic sizes, 50, 66 and 83 kWh. I think the larger 100 and 200 kWh packs are multiples of the 50 kWh pack so that they can be split into dual 400 volt packs to accommodate 800 volt charging. Since the three smaller packs are 400 volt packs only, vehicles using these packs will be limited to 400 volt charging. I can’t think of any reason why the 66 and 88 kWh packs can’t also be doubled or even quadrupled to make a variety of battery pack sizes to handle a wide variety of applications, and support 800 volt charging.

[@markbishop1425]

There is a lot of talk about battery packs with 800 volt architecture being much faster charging than a pack with a 400 volt architecture. I contend if a DC fast charger, either 400vdc or 800vdc, is powerful enough, the limiting factor for pack charging time is the individual battery cell. In a pack, all cells are balanced, and are of the same size. They are all charging at the same rate and at the same time. So, the time it takes for a battery pack to charge, is the time that it takes for the single battery cell to charge. To take this to an extreme, it doesn't matter if they are all in series,( really high pack voltage with low current), or all in parallel, ( really low pack voltage and high current), it takes the same time to charge the pack. I consider " the much faster charging 800 pack " concept a myth. Mark Bishop

[@abraxastulammo9940]

We should test if EV6 GT can charge just as fast at SuC v3 because of their clever 400 V conversion.

[@anthonyc8499]

Great info and insight on why EVs are the way they are. I'm curious when 800v will become the standard, and is it obvious if higher voltage packs are still to come?

[@nikosterizakis]

When ICE manufacturers like BMW, Mercedes etc get their act together (or become irrelevant in the process for being too slow£

[@KhalilAmar]

In Europe, take a Taycan Turbo and visit a Kempower stall with 800Vdc. Charge from 5 to 90%. Compare the time and the curve on a Kempower stall 400Vdc. That would be really nice 👍

[@rudyyyxu]

There is 400v to 800v conversion happening in the taycans. They don't charge that fast on a 400v chargerr

[@newscoulomb3705]

10:02 Don't forget GM's strategy with Ultium, which is to split the pack so that when charging, the two halves run in series. This enables using 400 V or 800 V chargers without a voltage booster or wiring through the car's onboard inverter. And really, that speaks to the biggest issue with "800 V" EVs: All but Lucid are still using 400 V powertrains, so the only gains seen from 800 V batteries are with the charging. That's why GM's model makes the most sense to me because none of these other EV automakers that are using 800 V charging are pushing past the real CCS limitation, which is 500 A of current. The single-stack Ultium packs have a 500 A limit, so there's no need to push 800 V. The double-stack packs, however, could theoretically accept 1,000 A, which is twice as much as the CCS standard is capable of supplying. Even the 700 V nominal limit for the double-stack Ultium packs makes sense because the current crop of 350 kW CCS chargers can only supply 500 A up to a maximum of 700 V, at which point they have to start tapering the charging current.

[@newscoulomb3705]

12:34 *Edit: Okay, you didn't forget. 😀

[@LordStevie]

I'd be concerned Hyundai using the rear motor's inverter to make the electrical charging components play nice, might be putting additional wear on an expensive and necessary engine part.

[@troosimimimmi]

its already over spec / they left room for upgrade wattage

[@jameshoffman552]

What good is super-fast DC charging with 800V when it's a challenge to find chargers, especially working ones. Tesla's 400V architecture and supercharger network has an important advantage: It actually works.

[@TedKidd]

This will matter more for thirstier vehicles & towing to keep charging mph in that 500-1000 mph sweet spot

[@LinasR]

3 phase voltage is 380V x (square of 3) at phase peeks. So 400V battery isolation is well tested through many years and it is well known, I think

[@erichchan3]

Doesn't matter what it is now. 800V architecture is the future and needs to be the standard for EVs to provide the best efficiency with being able to supply the most voltage with current for efficient charging. Its just a matter of having that transition phase where you have 800V and 400V charging cars. EV charging infrastructure needs to be able to toggle between 400V and 800V charging which CCS standard and I believe EA chargers can support. The NACS connector can support 800V charging but it seems to be limited to v4 superchargers which have barely made a dent in the US market.

[@BillB33525]

My '22 Taycan with the 150/400 module can charge at 173kW on a 150kW EA charger up to 80% then it starts tappering. @88% SoC it's still over 50kW. in 19 minues the car took in 55kW. I would not be too bumbed out charging on a 400V 150kW charger.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

About cost it depends which is more expensive and to whom... Like a 400V car may save money from off the shelf parts making but will lose money in upping the size of every thing else. So if they could get off the shelf 800V hardware at the same price it may be cheaper then to stick with 400V at the same price.

[@AshlandBearCat]

Thanks for a great and informative video.

[@dh-1399]

I really wish the Tesla connector had been adopted instead of J1772 / CCS. Handling AC and DC through the same conductors is just so much more elegant but obviously that ship has sailed. I don't think the voltage of the battery pack itself really matters right now as long as the chargers being installed today are at least 1000v "ready". They will likely all be ripped out and replaced in the next 5 - 10 years anyway. I'm more concerned with station reliability and how the heck DC charging will scale once EVs hit true mainstream and we see hundreds of thousands of owners that don't have access to residential L2 start pulling 200kw a couple times week on similar schedules (lunch break / evening commute etc). Even with on site buffering, those numbers get real crazy real quick.

[@GarySBCA]

Agree. The Tesla connector is an elegant solution. The CCS by comparison is clunky and unwieldy. So unless you’re charging a semi I don’t see any benefit for the average motorist. In fact, it’s likely a disadvantage for having to us a bulky annoying plug just so you can say you have 800 volts.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

@@GarySBCA Should have opensourced the Tesla plug with no hooks.

[@joseclaus7224]

The Tesla connector is nice and compact, but it can't handle 3ph unlike the CCS.

[@geraldbegley]

Thanks for such an interesting video.

[@KhalilAmar]

Correct me if I'm wrong. AC to DC there's heat and loss. And then again DC to DC onboard charger, to spec up 400 to 800 Vdc, generates heat and loss again. It's best to keep the cars cheap and light. Invest in HV chargers rather than 400 Vdc standard chargers. Am I wrong?

[@u.wunschel7311]

very short charging stops are possible between 5 - 60 percent

[@steveroper8733]

Great video. Very helpful. Does this mean that the Tesla...which is known for its efficiency...could be even more efficient at 800v? Gross oversimplification, I know....but seriously curious.

[@joseclaus7224]

Yes because it would be lighter (less copper, smaller inverter etc) and probably less wasted heat for Amps squared X Resistance losses.

[@adulttoks]

8:28 I want to learn ALL about these boosters. Please :) How can this be implemented on a 800VDC battery if I am building my own battery bank for charging through a 400VDC charger

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

When correctly engineered it does not matter whether you have 400, 600 or 800V. It just gets more expensive in semi conductors. You have to balance the cost of the components. For small passenger cars 400V is enough. Even less for really small cars like the Fiat 500E. For larger lorries aka pickup trucks maybe 800V is more efficient and the cost justified. With semis its maybe even 1600V. With airplanes it may be even more, in ships maybe less. You always have to balance the amount of copper and fuses vs semiconductors and insulation.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

Nobody has been able to quantify the additional costs so far. Is it like going from a 11 kW AC charger to a 22 kW builtin charger?

[@ronb4633]

Kyle, do you have a recording of the EGMP platform car charging on that EV go charger that shows voltage and amperage for the entire charge curve? I would love to see it holding max voltage or how it steps. Nice video, I’m not sure I agree with you on speaking to Porsche with the 150 because of Tesla superchargers as I firmly believe Tesla will be upgrading to V4 relatively soon. And with the three years of free Electrify America people will avoid alternative chargers for three years.

[@peterjorgensen3]

Hey Kyle, are you going to test drive an Aptera?

[@janwartoday]

Lot of conversation around Cybertruck build on 48V architecture and Tesla sending the manual to other OEMs. Whats the difference?? Kias and Hyndai have been at 800v. I'm confused

[@kingawitek9402]

i have energica e-moto - it has 333V system (80S) - tesla is 96S (S stands for cells in series)

[@selbyjohnson5986]

So what does this mean for Tesla if they stay at 400v? They are saying there will be 350kw charging at some point. Is that the max they could do?

[@andrey_climb_bike_ski]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the drawback of 400V vehicles potentially being unable to charge at peak rates due to the charger having current limitations. All the 350kW DCFC near me also have a 350A limit.

[@Stefan_963]

so as you said main benefit is fast charging, but you can only benefit from that when the battery can handle it, and the most batterys are around 60-80kwh, so they physicly can´t handle charging power > 200kw for longer time. Talking E-GMP it´s really impressive how they handle > 220kW for relativly long time. I´m personnally not sure if this is really healthy for the battery. So 800V is reasonable for batterys > 100kW imo. We´ll see.

[@shellstud34]

Kyle the Cat mec500 charges 1000v 500 amp or 500kw, they put two in parrallel and can charge at 1mw they can charge the r1700xe is less than 20 min 0 to 100%

[@larryspiller15]

Current into the cell stays the same, the limiting factor to charging speed is battery chemistry which has nothing to do with being 400-800v pack voltage