Overdue Doctor Who Review: Army of Ghosts/Doomsday

[@SuperTopgearstig]

My favourite bit was the Cybermen and the Daleks playing off each other: Plus, I think the Daleks have the best comeback lines, Dalek, "Identify yourself," Cybermen, "you will identity first." Cyberleader, "Daleks be warned you have declared war upon the Cybermen," Dalek Sec, "This is not war, this is pest control." Cyberleader, "we have 4 billion Cybermen, how many are you?" Dalek Sec, "Four." Cyberleader, "you would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?" Dalek Sec, "we would destroy the Cybermen with one Dalek" That last line is badass for me and the battle between the Cybermen and the Dalek is interesting to watch it think

[@scaper8]

Yeah, but Rose had the topper. "Four million Cybermen, no problem. But one little Doctor and you're scared." That or, Dalek, "The female's heart rate has accelerated." Mickey, *scoof* "Tell me about it."

[@Silverwind87]

"YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO THE DALEKS IN ONE REGARD." "WHAT IS THAT." "YOU ARE BETTER AT DYING."

[@tomkenning5482]

'This is not war, this is cyberbullying' (From the Bitch Fight of Canary Wharf, do yourself a favour and watch it)

[@louella72]

That whole scene is now ruined by The Bitch Fight of Canary Wharf.

[@LydiaTarine12]

Link! kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3TWiYJtp5tgsJY

[@Phil_Hill]

The look you gave after the line "when Clara passed away... the first time".... Was just awesome lol

[@Daelyas]

yeah... but then I got confused with the "in face the raven" bit. THAT was the first time? It was the ... let me count here: 6th time? Granted four of those were "fake out" deaths/exits with the "it was just a dream" solution and the like, but regardless. If you count all the episodes were she wants to/has to leave and then doesnt it even totals up to 9. At least Rorys constant deaths were played as a farce later on - but after tearful goodbye number 3 for Clara I just couldnt be bothered to care anymore. Ah well... its over now... moving on :D

[@tomkenning5482]

@@Daelyas 'Rory, you're gonna die' 'WHEN DON'T I?'

[@jonsnor4313]

Did clara even die the last time?

[@quinnsinclair7028]

Jon Snor No she turned into an immortal with an even better Tardis than the Doctor’s.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Yeah, I don't know how to even say her name without either a glare or a heavy sigh happening.

[@danielsleeper2307]

I just love that you have all three main Tennant companions actors in this. Billie as Rose, Freema as Martha's cousin, and Catherine as Donna at the end

[@Mgooy]

I never got how Pete knew to teleport in and save rose, or how he didn't get pulled into the void when daleks were whizzing past at mach 10

[@quinnsinclair7028]

Given that all the dimensional tech was developed in Pete’s World it seems reasonable to assume their Torchwood had some kind of device for monitoring the other side. I always assumed that since he’d just blipped in from the other dimension the void needed a few seconds for the void stuff particles to attract to the void and a few seconds was all Pete needed.

[@thhunter]

Shhhhh. Don't think. Just sleep.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Yeah that's a big leap, but the thing is I always forget it about 10 seconds after it happens because the emotional punch doesn't let me dwell on it. Unlike the "Doctor teams with Cyberman" thing, which I feel like lingers just long enough that I fixate on it. That doesn't make it not a plot hole, but it slots into the "emotional payoff papers over many sins" thing I mentioned.

[@apexa903]

Maths

[@booradley8895]

It is called science fiction

[@wizzy2201]

My favourite parts: Dalek- The Doctor will open the arc! Doctor- *snorts and laughs* the Doctor will not OR Dalek- A sonic probe? Doctor- That's screwdriva

[@SweenyTodd98]

This is still one of my all time favorite two parters from this show. It had the daleks, the cybermen, 10, and Rose, it was just pure awesome! Plus the Daleks and Cybermen trash talking each other has to be one of the greatest scenes in Doctor Who history.

[@leahsmith2923]

I loved that short stern pause after you mentioned "the first time" Clara died haha

[@roxxychik06]

This hurts sooo freaking bad. Rose will always be my favorite companion.

[@concernedcitizen6313]

Honestly, while I appreciate your opinions on this two-parter, I wasn't bothered by the things you found troublesome. I liked the way the "this is the day I die" was resolved, since there isn't much of a way for that to make literal sense anyway, being that if she was saying it, she wasn't really dead. Knowing, though, that Freema was supposed to be here own cousin, which I didn't know (or had forgotten) was kinda silly. Overall, I thought it was a really top-notch ender, and with all of the suspense, action, and heartbreak that made Davies's run so good (and far superior to Moffat's poor long-form storytelling). My biggest problem was more of a stylistic thing, and that was the fact that after the head of that branch of Torchwood, or maybe the whole thing, was made into a Cyberman, she still had her own voice, just modulated, as if we wouldn't have known it was her. If a regular Cyberman voice was saying "for Queen and Country" while turning on the other Cybermen, I think we would've been able to follow what was happening. I just thought it was a bit insulting, like, "In case you couldn't already tell this was her and she was too strong mentally for the Cyberman conversion to fully take over, we'll thrown in her voice." Like, okay? Would've been better with a regular Cyberman voice.

[@stayforthepeelpronpls4774]

4:25 there was a cut scene of the doctor talking to the cyber leader

[@MrMaster7112765]

One thing I never understood. Wouldn't Pete have been pulled into the void along with rose?

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Well, realistically he also shouldn't have known that 1) Rose was even in danger and 2) when and where he needed to stand to save her. It's a plot hole nightmare that I have trouble dwelling on because I'm too busy choking back tears 10 seconds later.

[@muklowd]

Yeah the Doctor and Rose completely brought this ending upon themselves ... right back to the fact that it was because of the Doctor that Torchwood was created in the first place (back in Tooth and Claw)

[@chanceneck8072]

I loved this Yvonne character, the leader of Torchwood. Her going against the Cybermen at the end with that single tear in her eye was quite something new back in the day and got me VERY amotional and I'll never forget it!....

[@Lahey3]

I adore this story

[@alyssashane5569]

i think that this finale, like you said, isn't the most amazing one. but because it is really the first big emotional moment people get out of new who, it tends to get the deservedly overblown treatment. it always has that spot in my heart as the first 'holy shit that hurt' wound, which is what makes this finale so memorable and great to rewatch for me.

[@TheConfessionDial]

I’ve always thought the ending would have actually been better if Rose had been sucked into the void. I know that seems pretty dark (and I do still really love the beach goodbye scene), but I think there would be a really profound sense of irony about Rose having to choose between her family and the Doctor - she chooses the Doctor, but it kills her. The way Pete just randomly appears and catches her (which makes no sense) makes me wonder if that was originally the plan., but it was changed because it was thought to be too much.

[@thegamingninja3578]

I know I'm really late lol but this might be one of my favourite finales just because the doctor was able to save the day with a solution that didn't feel like it was cheap or came out of nowhere.

[@thegamingninja3578]

I still love series 1 and series 3 but they both ended with rose and the doctor basically becoming a god and fixing everything. Series 4 ending wasn't perfect but I still liked it.

[@thegamingninja3578]

I know in each season the ending for the solution was set up to some degree but for me it worked the best in series 2

[@chrispalmer7893]

The end of Army of Ghosts caused my wife - not an especially committed Who fan - to gasp really loudly. We then heard our neighbours (both in their sixties and neither of them Who fans at all as far we knew) make the exact same noise. Made for a lovely moment (only slightly spoiled by the realisation that our joining wall seemed to be made of tissue paper...)

[@ThePeter444]

The Moment when the daleks come out of the sphere is my favourite cliffhanger of all modern/classic who

[@xyroscreator]

So i rewatched series 3 recently in preperation of your upcoming videos and for the first time i noticed something. The foreshadowing i remembered was the mr saxon name drops but now i noticed how many episodes used the word master in it which makes the reveal so much less surprising. Loved your views of series 2 and you opened my eyes to themes that i missed for example the toxic fandom theme of love and monsters

[@tomchaney6085]

I think a big reason behind the identical relatives thing in the UK is that we're a small country, we only have about 7 actors and we've got to get the most out of them

[@ellieward2567]

With your point on Jackie saying “why can’t this just be real” and believing the ‘faith’ of it. I feel that is exactly what Davies was trying to do. That was the whole point of The Impossible Planet/Satan’s Pit. Davies wanted to see the Doctor questioning the science. So I definitely think that could have been his intentions here too.

[@markh2960]

I always found the finale with Rose on the beach and the hologram Doctor to be unintentionally funny with how it ends between them

[@TheLegendaryGerbil]

The doctor walked in with the flag saying that he surrenders information; not just surrendering. So yes he did talk the cybermen into doing stuff

[@MrRjhyt]

Your review reminded me why it's so important to renew the creative team behind the show as well as regenerate the lead. It does cause, and solve all kinds of continuity problems. But it also allows the exploration of other aspects of the Doctor.

[@mel646]

Hi I just wanted to say I found your channel today through your Rocky Horror video and I was so happy when I got the notification for this video lol, you're awesome

[@chrispalmer7893]

For what it's worth, I knew a guy at college who had what we all called an identical twin cousin. They were very hard to tell apart - much more so than either one was from their real siblings, so it can happen...

[@lwaves]

I was with friends in a bar/restaurant and we all saw a person we knew well eating a meal over the other side of the room. Given that she was my work colleague of 9 years (at that point) and her husband and brother were sitting with us it was definitely weird. The husband even called home to tell his wife about it. The only real difference was hair length.

[@uscman]

The Doctor said to the Cyberman "I surrender to you... A good idea."

[@zakjaggs9761]

I've always found the white flag = team up to be a really small leap. It just makes sense

[@jenniferconstantine9041]

So one thing I realized watching Doomsday this time around was that initially, when the Doctor explained they would all be sealed on the other side of the wall, he had no plans to go with Rose. But she was determined to be with him at all costs. Then when she list her grip, he was willing to watch her get sucked into the void and didn't let go so he could get sucked in with her. I'm pretty sure you don't die in the void, so at the very least they could have been together. But he does neither, which to me undermined the great love story they were shipping. It was clearly more so on Rose's part, which I guess makes sense since he was far beyond anything she had encountered in her 20 something years, but she wasn't the first or last person he would love. I know that sounds cold, but it's the only thing that would explain why he wasn't willing to trap himself with her.

[@M-E_123]

I enjoyed this with one exception - having 2 double episodes with the Cybermen in one season (especially this season which already has a lot of modern day episodes) is a mistake - the season just lacks variety when watched close together. I generally agree with your nitpicks on this one but also agree that I am very willing to overlook them due to the story managing to land the emotional gut punch at the end. There's a strong argument to be made that this is one of the best series finales in New Who.

[@PatrickSpelman]

Always a favourite story, Tracy Ann Oberman as the head if Torchwood was phenomenal. Billie Piper was phenomenal, basically the acting is all round great in this episode. It's also one of the few episodes I where one of the first memories that hits me is the music, it's just beautiful.

[@LydiaTarine12]

My mind draws so many parallels between Tennant's Doctor and Capaldi's Doctor. They're very different, but there are also a lot of parallels. In this video, you address one of them. It is especially those two (whom I tend to think of as more tragic) Doctors that make me wonder if the writers have a tendency to alternate the general tone of the Doctors. Eccleston and Smith both strike me as generally chipper Doctors. Yes, they have some heavy moments (even very heavy moments since Smith, for example, has Devil's Run and he's eventually cut off from Amy and Rory), but they're not framed as tragically or darkly as the worst things Tennant and Capaldi's Doctors go through (compare the departure of Amy/Rory to those of Donna, Clara, and Rose, for example; Bill too, from the Doctor's perspective). And 10 and 12 go through some _awful_ things, if you think about it, even outside of the actual depature/death of a companion.

[@rogerlynch5279]

2:36 Nice Freudian Slip FORSHADOWED AND FOR SHALLOWED both is right, yeah.

[@Lil-Dragon]

I admit if they left Rose be I would have been happy them bring her back in season 4 as a huge surprise without teasing it in the series. The story is fun and interesting so it doesn't get boring on a rewatch.

[@martynstembridge7714]

Remember really enjoying this climax to the series ... (even though I was convinced Davros would show up) ... and the emotional impact it left on the Doctor and the viewers just elevated the show to even greater heights. This was a golden age for the show imo ... where it perfectly balanced being 'popular' with the general public, while still being a show the long-term fans would love and respect. The RTD finales were always a bit crazy and overcooked, but you never felt shortchanged. Everything was on the screen, and it felt epic and always exciting. Losing Rose had a lasting impact on Tennant's Doctor, and his anger would steadily grow over the next 3 years until he became REALLY dark.

[@mayotango1317]

Sorry but the Long-term fans hate the Rose/Tennant soap opera.

[@kristienwhitneyjohns2215]

"I surrender, unto you.. a very good idea" this is what the doctor says to the cybermen before they team up

[@isorivers3590]

Really love the way you have pulled this apart. I have always thought the foreshadowing of death was a little weird but I agree it makes up for it with the emotional stuff at the end. And who doesn't love 2 supervillain races sassing each other and watching the Daleks get owned?

[@drphil9085]

"They come back every single friggin' year!" Except for 2019 apparently. *EVERYONE STARES AT CHIBNALL*

[@lwaves]

Oopsie. Edited for my own stupid date typos. Except they have appeared in 2019 but didn't appear in 2018. Just to be accurate.

[@k.stewart007]

Loved this story on 1st watch. Left half way through a england game to watch this and wasnt dissapointed. Had the volume so loud that you could here it at the top of my street i was that exited. Now on rewatch a few things bug me. Im happy with the memories it gave me though. Ive always thought that scene with jacky and pete was overlooked. I always thought it was great. Think i mentioned it on your most emotional scenes video. For me this is story is when tennent became the doctor. If i remember rightly there was a cut scene from that eppisode that involved the dr and the cyber men, just after he waved the flag. Basicly him ranting at them. Might be worth a look for you though see if think it would have better keeping it and chopping somewhere eles.

[@justkerowen3191]

Let's see: I agree that a good emotional payoff can paper over a multitude of minor sins. The Daleks and Cybermen smack talking each other was a highlight for me. Speaking of snark, I see I'm not the only one who noticed your pointed look at the camera when referencing Clara's fate in Face the Raven. It was good to see Mickey reappear after he'd taken a level in badass. Jackie and Pete's reunion - oh, my heart... Comeuppance seemed to be a theme in these two episodes overall, given the head of Torchwood also suffered the consequences for being cavalier about things. I found her conversion override both touching and prophetic, foreshadowing similar actions by Craig, Danny, and The Brig. While I mostly find Rose being trapped and the climax on the beach impactful, it has been blunted a bit in retrospect given how she came back so often she entered "how can I miss you if you won't go away?" territory. Speaking of the climax, one of my Unpopular Opinions is that while it's irritating he blew a lot of his limited time in leadup, I'm glad Ten didn't get to say what everyone expected him to. I feel those three words would've been a bridge too far. Overall, I still really enjoy these episodes and they're pretty high on my rewatch list.

[@celinathommesen-kahler2142]

For me, the ominous Rose intro, since it uses a similar shot to the one of Rose crying at the very end, makes the part of the ending where we see Rose crying a lot worse than it already is. For me, I have always cared about the Doctor's emotions exclusively, so I've had to close my eyes or fast-forward, while watching, until I see the Doctor in the TARDIS. With respect to the Rose-obsessed, what Rose feels in that moment will never interest me. So I agree that melodramatic "the day I die *not really*" nonsense was really not necessary. Thank Rassilon scenes like that don't show up again..

[@Ben-vf5gk]

While I have some misgivings with Doomsday the initial scene of 10 and Rose being separated by the wall was very good. They played it very well, Tennant just looks so broken and defeated when he walks away. I wish it ended on that note rather than the beach scene.

[@superraegun2649]

The issue with Rose’s death isn’t necessarily that they foreshadowed it, but that they foreshadowed it with the same subtlety as a carpet-bombing campaign.

[@ghlmk5931]

I have the same feeling after I watch this two-parter. Lots of inconsistencies but they don't really bother me. I do like the beginning, it works for me. Rose was never my favorite companion, but Billie Piper acted the hell out of those heartbreaking final moments. I liked that they allowed her makeup to run all over her face. Though ultimately sad, it's always fun to rewatch these episodes.

[@rowanc88]

Will you wear a black suit and tie when you get to the 'Voyage Of The Damned' review?

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Probably not. I don't have a black bowtie.

[@brendy4546]

And until next time, this Council is... _Heater explodes_

[@wendyheatherwood]

On the subject of identical cousins, I have a friend whose cousin looked almost identical to her back when they were both in their late teens and early 20s. The first time I met her was when we both bumped into her by chance. It was a very confusing experience.

[@owenwildish331]

Is it me or does it seem a little odd that, even with their sense of superiority over and hatred of others, the Daleks just flat out refused an 'alliance' with the Cybermen (using/ manipulating them to their advantage) it seems the Daleks have had prior dealings with them in the past, leading perhaps to a double, double cross or something, maybe Doctor Who could have a multi-Doctor story (featuring Paul McGann & classic era, 60s/ 80s Daleks & Cybermen) where we see this happen (I've often speculated that the Dalek's Robomen could be reversed engineered Cybermen technology?)

[@dubbingsync]

Ahh Doomsday... the first episode I paid attention to. Shame I came in half way through the episode itself and didn’t really have a clue what was happening. I remember my mum walking in the room and asking what I was watching, I couldn’t tell her as I didn’t know. But I started watching just before the Cybermen and Daleks starting fighting in the giant room and that caught my attention in a way that said, “this is cool! I want more”

[@knoxmcwhorter9314]

My dad was actually the one to first point it out to me. David Tennant’s Doctor has a crap-ton of Christ parallels to the extent that they couldn’t have been coincidence. Davies definitely wanted to make his version of The Doctor a messiah type figure. Granted, The Doctor has a lot of traits that, regardless of the writer, appear to portray an otherworldly savior. It’s just interesting to analyze the comparisons

[@lwaves]

Well, just look at The Waters Of Mars for the culmination of RTD's arc regarding that. He basically becomes a god-like figure without any one to hold him in check. In the past there has even been speculation as to whether he is a god playing as Timelord. Never went for that myself but it is an interesting point of pure speculation.

[@callumdalton9560]

I think the line when rose says this is the day I die is because she's on the death list

[@tcshack701]

Someone probably asked this all ready, it might have even been me on another of your videos, but would you consider reviewing Torchwood or Sarah Jane Adventures?

[@dcsignal5241]

Everyone seemed to love this, but all I can remember thinking was "So Why isn't she dead?" at the end of it.

[@clara_bandicoot]

The Daleks appearing shocked m as a kid, but on a rewatch of Fear Her they are revealed in the next time trailer for a split second I think. Not the Daleks themselves, but someone being shot by one

[@lwaves]

Which is why I stopped watching those trailers after the first couple. I hated it when they put them right as the credits started, it didn't give you time to switch off and sometimes I wanted to see who an actor was. The recent trend of putting them after the credits (or part way in) is much better.

[@kristienwhitneyjohns2215]

My big question is, why did the Doctor pick up 2 magnets? He only needed one..

[@TheMarcHicks]

That said, I won't pretend-I bawled my eyes out when The Doctor & Rose got seperated!

[@highvoltage7797]

Like the episode. Legit cried when Rose left back in 2006 (feel so old) They do butcher the Cyberman though.

[@DPS31762]

Yeah, I don't get why scriptwriters want to put in opening narration that function as spoilers. Same thing happens at the start of "Name of the Doctor". I kind of figure it's just padding, but why give away the reveal in padding?

[@beautifultragedy1644]

My favourite part was all Jackie scenes 😂

[@wizzy2201]

ThisIsHow WeParty her reactions to any piece of dialogue are hilarious

[@historymysteries4134]

I’ve never realise that Adeola would have worked as Martha’s twin not cousin!

[@DsRelaxingSounds]

I think sometimes people tend to forget young kids watch this show and it's broadly aimed at kids. It would be really harsh for a child if a character was suddenly taken away without any warning. At least with that introduction they could prepare. I do think the 'I died' part was a bit overdramatic, but they couldn't spoil what happened of course.

[@lwaves]

I agree with you, although sometimes the harshness of reality can be best expressed through a child's favourite show. I always thought that line might have been better stated as "This how my life ended." Meaning her life on that Earth ending as she started a new one elsewhere but still implying her death.

[@WiloPolis03]

Stuff like this needs to appeal to a wide age range, some other examples include Disney animated movies, Star Wars, Marvel movies, etc.

[@DsRelaxingSounds]

@@lwaves Yeah that would have been better! Imo plenty of sad things do happen on the show, but it's never _too_ overly harsh and I'm fine with it. It's nice to have a show that's mainly optimistic.

[@andrewwebb7584]

To be fair, Karen Gillan and Caitlin Blackwood are fairly identical cousins!

[@theeorigin4651]

From your reviews, heres my prediction of your season 2 ranking Impossible Planet/satan pit Army of ghosts/doomsday School reunion Girl in the fire place Rise of the cybermen/age of steel Tooth and claw Love and monsters Christmas invasion New earth Idoits lantern Fear her Be interesting to see how accurate this is

[@CouncilofGeeks]

You weren’t too far off.

[@LydiaTarine12]

Poor Martha. The Doctor doesn't appreciate her enough.

[@karenlarkin3786]

I love all your reviews but I have to say one thing. I have an identical(ish) second cousin in all but the hair (I am that shitty mousy ash-blonde colour I hate so much that I dye red and she is a blonde). This might be because our family is from the west coast of Ireland and we are all closely related (though her grandfather is English). Apparently one of my first cousins also is a doppelganger but I can't be sure as my mum doesn't talk to that sister...so cousins can match closer than you think. I worry about my family...xxx

[@Thunderwing88]

You didn’t have a pair of 3D glasses to see?

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Sadly, I did not. And it didn't occur to me to get some until I sat down to shoot this.

[@eleven5885]

were there daleks in season 6?

[@elri8792]

Nope!

[@CouncilofGeeks]

The Wedding of River Song opens with the Doctor taunting a Dalek.

[@lwaves]

The Daleks have appeared in new Doctor Who footage (not necessarily an episode) every year since the restart - except for 2018. The less obvious ones being a cameo during Waters of Mars to cover the year of Tennant's specials, The Wedding Of River Song (as mentioned) and a teaser trailer featuring Bill that wasn't part of an episode, although it was referenced. They've already appeared in 2019, when we aren't even getting a series, thanks to the New Years Day episode.

[@elri8792]

Oops. I didn't realize that

[@emilymorano2923]

Weird coincidence, I'm just about to rewatch these episodes myself🤣 Edit: my older brother hadn't seen these episodes and my younger brother spoiled the daleks for him😂

[@TheMarcHicks]

Best season finales for new Doctor Who was Season 4 & Season 5.

[@marvelboi3416]

The showrunner did that because what the Beast predicted about Rose death in the previous 2-parter episodes of the Satan spit thing..... If that wasn't in the episode theb a lot of viewers will asked when is Rose going to die why did the Beast predicted that...... So in the finale they wanted to sike the audience and put it there.... I think that wasn't stupid but it's your opinion..... To me if you think about it that wasn't a big leap of how The Doctor talked to Cyberman to join up with him.... David Tennant's Tenth Doctor is very good at talking his way out of things... Did you notice the importance significance when Rose and The Doctor on the opposite side of the wall..... If you think back to the werewolf episode and The Doctor was on the other side of the door along with the wolf... I see they was trying to do in the finale because Rose was known as the Bad Wolf... Hey btw no spoilers for future episodes okay just stick to this one.... I didn't need want to know who passed away or who's this character was.... This was supposed to be review/ opinion only on this episode!!!!

[@artemusmusic]

Disappointed you didn't mention my favorite part: just how bitchy and snarky the Daleks were to the Cybermen. It's gotta be my favorite Daleks gender

[@DrT999]

On the whole, I liked these episodes, but I really think of them now as a collection of great moments connected by an ok plot

[@louella72]

This episode has a weird moment of pop culture referencing, i.e. the Ghostbusters stuff. I feel like this has only ever worked once in Dr Who, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances.

[@iamtheecho]

The big problem for me with this story is that the emotional ending is completely gutted by series 4's ending. The way Rose leaves in this story is perfect, it's such a unique and tragic way for a companion to leave. And then series 4 spoiled it. Best way to say it is Doomsday is a tragedy like Romeo and Juliet. You don't write a sequel to Romeo and Juliet where they both wake up having faked their deaths and then Juliet runs off with Romeo's twin brother Shakespeare just pulled out his ass.

[@shanewright2772]

AOG was fine - we'd gotten used to a lack of original ideas by the end of Series 2, but like a lot of second parts of two parters, "Doomsday" let the deal go down rather badly. Apart form being trite, mawkish, dumb and obvious, of course, the worst thing about it looking back as it paved the way for the Donna era and the near ceaseless road of new lows for companionhood that opened up.

[@mayotango1317]

The whole Torchwood existence is a big plot-hole, why the third Doctor never meet them when he was traped on the Earth.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Honestly though, that's the kind of plot hole you need to be willing to just roll with when it comes to anything that's been going for as long as Doctor Who has. Why do you think comics keep resetting their timelines?

[@ThatGirlWithTheCoffee]

Misheard you when you said "Nicky back" and thought you were saying Nickleback was awesome, and wasn't sure how to feel...

[@chanceneck8072]

I don't think, it was about instilling a sense of dread. I mean, what would you say, if you were trapped within another universe, but you get the chance to narrate one last introducion to the incident, which caused this thing to happen? I'm pretty sure, I would phrase it exactly like Rose did there. It just comes across as totally overdramatic and pointless, but if you think about it, from her character's standpoint, idk maybe explaining it to all her friends, family and neighbors, we as an audience didn't get the chance to see, it totally makes sense imo!

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Well it doesn't help that she's not narrating any other part of this story. It's only this cheesy "hook" and the coda at the end that she narrates. So I can't lend a ton of credence to "her perspective" because it's not at play anywhere else in the two parter.

[@lwaves]

I would have said "This is the day my life ended." Which is true as her life on that Earth did end but it also keeps the implication of death, only without the overdramatic side of stating it directly.

[@daniellasmith7348]

The movie and TV thing making cousins looks similar. Amazingly enough, its a real thing. Me, and my cousin, look INCREDIBLY similar it's actually scary. That's my female cousin anyway, and people even say they can see bits of me in my male cousins, too. It's not a myth, people!

[@andrewbowman4611]

I look like two of my cousins, who are each other's cousins as well, but neither of them look like the other. It's an odd genetic quirk, it must be said.

[@rhetro777]

This is what happens when the family tree doesn't branch 😜😂

[@warriorcatskid003]

I’m here and ready to be sad

[@Yk-mm6xt]

I actually cried at the end of this one

[@lwaves]

I didn't. I had something in my eye for about 5 minutes. Honest.

[@paulmarx7345]

My issue with this one is the complete mismatch between the Daleks and Cybermen. I get that the Daleks are the bigger bad but the disparity was too great to make the fight in any way interesting.

[@theeorigin4651]

Cybermen couldnt put a scratch on any dalek. If there were some cannon fodder daleks we see die until its just the cult - then the arc opens are your just like ok we screwed

[@andrewbowman4611]

Regarding RTD's position on faith, he's atheist. However, I don't think the line in question has anything to do with that - it's more Jackie's disappointment as she realizes it isn't true.

[@ericjohnson9623]

RTD talks a lot about in this in The Writer's Tale, that he can't help but subconsciously put atheist elements in his lines because it is his worldview. He says his favorite line of his was from Tooth and Claw, "It is said whoever possesses it shall die." "Well, that's true of anything if you wait long enough." Cute, throwaway line, but he said beneath it is basically RTD saying a lot on the subject of religion and superstition and the supernatural. He even cites Gridlock as deliberately trying to write a more positive faith story but afterwards realizing their faith also keeps them trapped in the cars, because subconsciously that's just how he views the world. So I think on the surface this is a line about Jackie's disappointment, but even if Russell wasn't aware of it, there is absolutely an undercurrent about how some people feel about the actual afterlife. We don't have Ghostwatch or ghost cameos on EastEnders, but there are many a household conversations across the world about the afterlife that have gone the route of the Doctor and Jackie.

[@andrewbowman4611]

I have yet to read The Writer's Tale, but I've nothing but good things about it.

[@modmaker7617]

Davis vs Moffet vs Chibnall

[@otterhero6229]

Wait till chibnalls done at least three seasons, then judge him.

[@lwaves]

For me: Moffat, then RTD and it's too early to add Chibs in yet. Whilst both Moffat and RTD had their ups and downs, their strong and weak points, if you look at RTD's era, then at his stronger episodes - they were mostly penned by Moffat. That alone is enough for me to put him a little ahead of RTD.

[@jasonconway1842]

Absolutely hated all the ghost stuff (seriously dampens my appreciation of this two parter) . Pretty good episodes otherwise with a great reveal with the daleks.

[@englishgiraffe2124]

Y'know, I'm actually surprised that this is the only RTD finale that doesn't necessarily have a Deus-Ex Machina (Series 1 being the Bad Wolf Entity, Series 3 being words and Series 4 having Donna save the day). Besides that, the more that I watch this story, the more I tend to find more problems in it. There's definitely great stuff in it such as David and Billie's acting, the idea of the Ghosts and the Cybermen correlating is pretty imaginative, and the Daleks are seen just as threatening as they were in Series 1. However I'm not big on how the Cybermen are so easily defeated by Daleks, I know Daleks are much more powerful than Cybermen, but they should have least destroyed one. And oh my God, do I hate the melodrama with 10 and Rose at the beach, this is not how I want Doctor Who to be at all. They should have said their goodbyes when they were hugging the wall, that would have been a much better departure. Overall, a decent finale to a pretty mixed series, this is easily the weakest RTD series, I much prefer Series 1, 3 and 4.

[@quinnsinclair7028]

English Giraffe Technically speaking it does. The void lever fixes all of the immediate problems. Though the difference is this one had a serious consequence: the loss of Rose and a traditional Deus Ex is supposed to fix all the problems leaving the heroes unscathed.

[@k.stewart007]

I agree about the cyber men. Should have been a Bit more nailbitting over who is most powerful. Like one minute it seems like the cyber men are winning, then the daleks and so on.

[@theeorigin4651]

Two best thing about this story are bitch fight of canary wharf and rose going into the void - so happy she was gone for nearly two seasons. Didnt like her

[@pillowcaseface5945]

Army of ghosts & doomsday > bad wolf & parting of the ways

[@jakerockznoodles]

No.

[@WiloPolis03]

I must be the only one who really liked Bad Wolf

[@mammutbrot9230]

@@WiloPolis03 I did too

[@WiloPolis03]

@@mammutbrot9230 Yeah, I liked Captain Jack, the Satellite 5 reveal, the stuff with the girl hooked up to the wires, and the reveal of the Daleks

[@pillowcaseface5945]

@@WiloPolis03 Doesn't beat Daleks vs Cybermen and Rose's goodbye

[@simonshurville612]

Nice 🇬🇧 🕶 🇬🇧 !!!

[@sacredslash2014]

Good not great finale

[@EraNex97]

tap tap tap tap

[@ralfphelps8365]

First

[@johnmoraites6020]

Dude. GET OVER THE WHOLE CLARA THING ALREADY. ITS ANNOYING