OK... It's Not ALL ARM | Rotation vs. Arming

[@the-tee-less-traveled-discgolf]

shoutout to coaches learning and having the humility to say they missed something!!

[@dierkens]

We have to. We’re not perfect and that correction is similar to what we expect of our clients.

[@lyonlawncare4145]

I coached/competed in gymnastics for 20 years, a sport that has been around for much, MUCH longer than disc golf. Gymnastics coaching techniques continuously evolve as our understanding of the mechanics of each skill evolve. Even in my 16 years of coaching, the things we understood and taught as a gymnastics community changed from even a beginner level all the way up to elite level gymnastics. There is a reason why gymnasts today can do so much more than those in the past. Disc golf is a new sport that until recently has had very little in the way of formal technique instruction. Of course the coaching is going to change, we don't truly understand what makes a good throw good, and add in the immense complexity that is individual physiology. Disc golf has a unique challenge because it is meant for everyone, young and old. The techniques and forms that will work for an athletic 18-20 year old are probably not the techniques and form that a new-to-the-sport 40 or 50 year old would use. I applaud your humility in making this video and admitting that coaching disc golf is not an exact science, but that you're trying anyways, and I really enjoy your approach to teaching. Keep it up!

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Thank you so much for this comment.

[@gabriellopez620]

Great comment! Well stated.

[@steveroberts9689]

Thanks for this! Great parallel!😊

[@michaelr1397]

But the fundamentals of the throw has never changed. Guys have thrown over 400 feet since beginning of disc golf. Only thing that's has changed is people still want to fight against what works and has always worked. The traditional throw that every pro does still gets the job done.

[@lyonlawncare4145]

@@michaelr1397 While I won't argue with you that the "fundamentals" of a throw remain unchanged, the manner in which you execute those throws does, and our understanding of those minute details is still foggy. If it was a clear cut as you say, every pro's throw would look exactly the same, and they don't. Is it because of their individual physiology? Is one form better than the other? There are a thousand questions to be answered, and (in my opinion), Josh and OT, as well as many other disc golf coaches, are trying to dig into the specifics and answer them. Heck, when i started two years ago everyone told me to "start the lawnmower" and that is now widely shunned.

[@Joeaxtell]

I love that you’re so open to learning more, challenging yourself and changing your opinions. Signs of a truly great coach

[@cbas_qc]

That's what a true coach does..he shows that everybody has to be open to learn, make mistake and get better..great video !

[@pathape]

Overthrow does dig too far into the weeds, but thats how you learn more about the game. I think Wiggins uses his legs more than Josh probably thinks. I come from a throwing background in track and was able to transition pretty fast into throwing far in disc golf. There is quite a bit of carry over from the spin in lets say discus to the xstep in disc golf. The power that is generated from your lower body is coming from the tension you create in your hips all the way down to your feet. The tension you build in your feet is overlooked. The push off you get from feet is very key into transferring momentum into the disc. The best way to build tension in the feet is to start slow and to speed up until the crack\hit point of the disc coming out of your hand. Thats really the only explosive part of the throw is the hit point of the disc releasing out of your hand.. Most of everyone actually throws faster with a slow walkup and possibly fewer steps because they can maintain more tension throughout their body during the course of their xstep. The more tension the faster your hips and arm will be.

[@michaelclarke1716]

So, I need to find a video on discus

[@MegaSydman]

Heracles started posting discus form videos 500 B.C.

[@_TDG]

Josh, absolutely love it! I dont think you were too too far off base with the Arm vid. Everything you leaned on was really pretty technically sound, it was just hyped a bit much towards the arm end of the spectrum. I totally over correct too, no harm done, glad you are starting the conversations. Thats more important than being right 100%. Really solid clarification of nuance and the spectrum of arm to rotation. This is the type of coaching we need! In the words of Seabass: only a Sith deals in absolutes. Great stuff, keep it up!

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Thanks. And Seabas22 would say that lol

[@markslempf9030]

As much as I complained about your last two videos, this is why I think that you're the best coach on KZbin.

[@MusicGW]

what di dyou learn

[@benharrison5816]

When you have something you're trying to change in your form, you have to over-exaggerate the fix. I think going through the arm progression drills is helping me get into a better release position since I'm an early rotator. Had a couple "grip lock" throws of course. Still working on it.

[@Corrigan65_]

Beyond 90 degrees would be a sledgehammer to my timing at this point. Is what I was thinking but I want that throw Josh. I want your linear throw, seeing a disc fly like that makes me happy

[@komarinth]

Don't worry about it! The arm video is probably what most who are struggling to get past 300-350 feet need to see. A video by Eagle where he talked about getting the elbow through first provided one of the best mental notes for me, personally. It resonates very well with your linear reasoning.

[@dgspindoctor]

The problem is: what you do consciously and how your body reacts to it, are two different things. As you plant hard, and brace, your body will start to rotate if your intention is to throw forward. And that is controlled with the neck. Wiggins looks back as he throws, Paul and Ezra look forward. The rotation will happen without you rotating intentionally. That will happen, trust it to happen even if you don't make it happen. Okay? If you don't then USE the arm, you will start rounding and the form looks bad, it is bad. Therefore, you have to use the arm consciously, but only if the brace is done correctly first and only if you don't lean over the brace with the upper body. This has to be done correctly first, and after that the arm is the most important part. I repeat: what you DO and what HAPPENS are two different things. And what you DO and what you LOOK like doing are two different things.

[@XJaylord]

Your arm video got me my distance form back that I lost by spinning my shoulders too fast for the past 6 months. I used to be able to throw 500' and then started spinning and lost it. Now I'm back.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Welcome back

[@dgshivler]

That's why we watch you and the Overthrow team vids. If you get it a little off kilter you go back and straighten it out. Good Job!

[@joebrannon8843]

Dude! I’ve never been more happy to see a linear approach!!!! This has helped me so much ❤

[@discbee9107]

Props for the humility and honesty instead of trying to spin it a different way. Respect and as always thanks for the awesome tips!

[@steveackerman5066]

Much respect to you and your leveling up as a coach. I appreciate your honesty and how you don’t shoebox people into a box that they may not be able to fit into.

[@ThePlanetNamik]

Thanks for getting the conversation started in the community about arming the disc. More times than not you guys are starting conversations about topics in throwing mechanics. Love the videos.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Thanks much

[@waynebrown8828]

I hardly ever comment on ANY thing related to social media. However, I felt I had to comment on the fact that I gained a1000% more respect for you and ,in my opinion , your credibility went off the chart as well . Thank you for being honest and humble and willing to show the “human” aspect of continuous learning. Your videos have always been great and informative, but in my eyes this video is what puts you on top of the entire bunch ! THANK YOU !

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Much appreciated Wayne

[@deakemarschall2992]

Quite an admirable update Josh. Most coaches ego won't allow them to admit they might have gone too far with their instruction. Kudos for recognizing you may have stepped over the line a bit and setting things back on the tracks.

[@jukkakymalainen]

Exellent video 👍👌 Finally clear video why some talks pulling and some rotation. Both can work, but you have to know what you are trying to do.

[@Griz313]

Much respect for having the guts to take responsibility for a mistake publicly. I like the channel. Thanks for the info! Always learning!

[@EdBeaudry]

Good stuff Coach. I think working as a spring has provided the 200 feet distance now, above the 150 distance now. Thank you as always. The old guy

[@nathanwilson7929]

All I took from the last lesson was adding the shoulder (like trying to slap/elbow someone ) to get the disc into deep pocket. there has been some trial and error as the rotation can putt the lagging shoulder in the way ( i have hit it a couple of times now pulling through) but by getting late int the pocket and getting as late of a release as possible with e forward momentum, i am getting so great added distance with less effort. Which is what i prefer for most of my throws for control, and now I am using mids because i don't have to put more into the shot to get them there, which means better accuracy. I think there is a sweet spot with the combination of the two, and it will be dependent player to player.

[@brettbuttars2792]

"Three of these kids" from Sesame Street would be a great song for this video. Switched to more pulling through form after watching your previous videos and it has really helped me hit lines in the woods much better. Thanks for all your help.

[@Richardgentile]

This makes total sense for me. I love how you teach.

[@drewbsn]

Great mindset, this is why you have so many fans

[@Corrigan65_]

It's taken 4 years of marginal LHBH training, but I'm confident in the last 2 weeks that there's a line now. Up till now playing holes where there were right dog legs or elbows where my RHFH flick couldn't make it to the turn; I would southpaw to the delight of my friends. The LHBH survived because it produced surprisingly good results. But there was no line. Best thing I had was hip tilt transferred nicely from RHBH to LHBH for throwing uphill. But every time I swear to god every time I was coming out of the X step I was thinking 'where the hell is this disc going to go?' I felt nothing; was kind of liberating in a way because I wouldn't feel upset if I missed the line. There was no line. "There is no spoon." right Mikey. Anyway I digress. But now out of thin air, I start to feel a LHBH line. It requires me lining up pre x step, So I take 2 steps. Mid range and fairway drivers are squeezing into the margins. Exciting times

[@AB8606SbG]

I for one am glad that you mentioned both techniques. I’m sure people have been helped by both. I personally like the arming method better. I’ve gained 20-30ft and I’m more accurate and consistent. Disc golf form isn’t an exact science and everyone needs to experiment. One thing I’m pretty sure of though, no matter the form, the disc has to out run the shoulders if you want distance and to keep from rounding.

[@conykrause513]

I really appreciate that Josh was willing to walk back a little on this topic. He taught us that maybe we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. By effectively re-visiting "start the lawnmower" for the past few months, we're seeing that old nugget has merit after all. But rotation plays a role as well. I think someone like Simon, who has broad shoulders and a long shoulder to elbow lever, with a relatively short forearm lever, is going to find a comfortable pocket position very forward, disc under right pec. But someone like Macbeth, with narrower shoulders and very long forearms, will naturally find his pocket position much further back, which necessitates different timing and muscle activation sequences to get the disc moving effectively. Its not just range of motion and athleticism, but the natural lever ratios of our body that shift our ideal disc path.

[@footfaultdiscgolf]

if you want to throw far the perfect formula is 100% arm, 100% legs, 100% hips, and 100% grip

[@dougieefreshiee]

Great video explanation!! Twirly bird ~ wide rail as we pull the ARM thru/in (whip) faster maintaining the 90; both combined 🥳

[@Balanceiskey-nd6el]

Nice video guys, thanks for always giving me ideas of things to think about / implement! Looking forward to seeing what the future of this channel holds. Even if some tips don't work for some people, these videos get the gears turning in a lot of disc golf players' minds. That's cool that a lot of people have been helped by this channel, and the comment sections are also micro disc golf communities where people can further enjoy other disc golfers' company and discuss form.. etc. Thanks for growing the sport!

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Thanks for being here

[@Corrigan65_]

2 min 49 sec. I want that flip up Josh. GIVE IT TO ME. and I want Simon's float like a ghost footwork. I still love Danny Lindahl for his coaching. I still rely on his techniques. Very much so.

[@JohnKelly6x6Design]

Perfect timing of this topic release. Thx

[@josephbudzinski4927]

i like to do the twirly Bird when I’m throwing upshot’s. the popping it up video has help my upshot’s a lot too!!

[@trevorquackenbush5]

For me, someone who was a spinny boi but recently started arming it after your other video, I've found that arming it is a tiny bit slower but so so SO much more accurate. No more crazy shank jobs so far, and fewer issues accidentally throwing 60 feet higher than intended. But it definitely requires more warm-up.

[@AlanS_DGC]

The arm your disc got me consistent added distance. I hit 400’ plus much more often now. So now I definitely know, I am that kind of thrower. Thanks Josh.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Congrats 🥳

[@citizenkang01]

I'd be curious to see if the two (backhand) bracing techniques you teach have any correlation with the wide-rail vs pull through. Also, I'd be interested to see what strains individual throws types put on various joints, so people can do proper stretching/strengthening for their form.

[@anderschristianhaldpederse8472]

Just returned to this video after som training and different "swingthoughts"... I can confirm the "feeling" of Keep you head down, focus on a spot with your eyes and "arm" this disc actually works - both with distance AND with accuracy as the body keeps still and stops rounding/laterelase caused by bad timing of the bodyrotation. The body does however rotate, but is does so subconsiously and later in the throw adding the "lag"... It all of a sudden just clicked for me - my thought was "eye on my toes" and get the disc deeeeep in the pocket before releasing.

[@mccsnackin]

My practice field flooded so I never had a chance yet to really try more arm. But I can testify that out-in-out has worked really well for me since I picked that technique up early-mid last year.

[@kyleweir689]

Paul’s form was EXACTLY what I thought of when I watched your other video. He throws from the trail shoulder.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I would say that Paul is in an unfavorable position with how collapsed his pocket is. Most amateurs aren’t making it out of that position.

[@NickCarroll]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf also to be fair to Paul, I don't think he does that often, maybe more recently, and perhaps that either contributed to his shoulder injury, or was a byproduct of it. He may be close to rounding by having a 90 degree upper arm to shoulder angle during the power pocket, but I think he's optimized the swing as much as possible and it just doesn't require a very wide angle during the throw.

[@Universal-Jack]

Well.. I think Im a fan. Love the honesty!

[@soranATK]

everything is on a spectrum (including mommies favorite) so i never really took the previous videos too seriously but it really helped to reframe a hole I had gotten myself in focusing too much on the lower body and reminding us that hey we are throwing something and of course that includes using your friggin arm people! as someone who has no idea what i am talking about the magic is when it all comes together; lower and upper, pull through and spinny, but it probably starts with getting the lower body in the right position which is the first biggest hurdle that most people face and why so many trainers focus on that. but lower body alone aint getting you 5 hundo. Maybe the throw is something like two parts step 1 get ur brace down and pull through with the ol' armo and then for the briefest moment you have a chance to explode the hips and spin with the shoulders. thats timing. i think. who knows i cant throw a lick past 400 because my body is dumb. gnight

[@jeffbursch2817]

Thanks for this. I would be interested to examine what the two approaches do to wrist position, snap, and spin. I would think getting the arm through quicker would keep the wrist cocked longer and contribute to greater snap, spin, and speed.

[@pixrguy]

wait , wait, wait. Are you saying that, "One Size doesn't fit all", "We're not all the same.", "If the shoe fits..." "To each his own". It's like we're all different, but the same. I knew this was going to happen after that last video, lol. Appreciate you as always Josh.

[@richardblake8123]

hope to see the channel at 500,000 by 2025. You guys are great

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

That would be mind blowing. I’d be shocked if we ever got to 75k!

[@brandynbeyer5130]

Ok I may resubscribe to Patreon to get some more guidance. I can throw more accurate with the pull-through method. I get plenty of spin but the shoulders I think add to the velocity.

[@merk345]

For me the arm throw changed my world. TY! However, I have discovered that if I add a little shoulder rotation just before the snap it comes out cleaner, faster and more on target. This is a difficult timing move to attain but I will achieve it more often with every rep. If you can please do a top view video of the throw. I think it will help all viewers.

[@goobiesgamegarage4517]

Its crazy that pros come in all shapes and sizes, throw all different ways, with great results, but amateurs dont get that throwing form advice is never going to be a one size fits all.

[@TwoOneSe7en]

I found out the hard way that I can’t pull through the pocket as much and my arm/elbow slot has to stay high. I can generate more force and speed. The lower my elbow gets and the more elbow pull I do… pains start to creep in. If I’m finding 414 on a good day, at 45yrs old, and pain free… I’m happy. I want to play for a long time. It’s about preservation at the end of the day.

[@cosmolean]

I've found the stiffness of your throwing arm makes a difference in your momentum style. If you can keep your arm relaxed, spinning and whipping the arm through with only enough tension to aim and prevent rounding is effective. I do reach out as you demonstrated. After playing a couple years with about a 50/50 arm to spin throw, I injured my shoulder and changed to the 80% spin to 20% loose arm technique to save wear and tear on shoulder and was throwing farther.

[@ToddsDiscGolf]

That’s what we all do. We are always tinkering, and when we throw a few bombs we’re like “I’VE FOUND THE SECRET!” 😂

[@dalebaynes3835]

Perfect explanation

[@christophertaylor3904]

Josh, to be noted, (1) your deeper power pocket throw was much better than your twirly, and (2) EVERYONE can can gain speed and distance by better utilization of the deep power pocket and better upper arm horizontal abduction. Even if they are not coordinated enough to implement it in the first week of trying.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I agree of course. I guess the question becomes how much and which students go for optimal form and the steps it takes to get there versus working within their framework.

[@letsgobrody5608]

Good work Josh. I was a little lost with the arm video. I'm a spinny boy for sure lol.

[@adamposselt7536]

Would you say you... OVERTHREW on that topic? 🤔

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Yes. Yes I would

[@thomaswiley4719]

Think Emerson or Antila! They both have an awesome blend of arm+ rotation

[@mikeforget3783]

Absolutely love the video and definitely dont think that solely arming the disc will get you elite distance, but I do feel like early shoulder rotation is getting phased out of the game. Pros like McBeth and Heimburg have early shoulder rotation with alot of counterbalancing to allow them to throw with a power pocket that stops near the center of their chest. Pros like Gannon Buhr and Eagle have deeper power pockets with later shoulder rotation. I feel like this makes the throw less timing based as the number of possible hit points shrink and allows full rips without worrying too much griplocks. Eventually, I think we'll see more pros with deeper power pockets and later shoulder rotation as courses become tighter and longer because of the lessened variability in release points when throwing full power. Thoughts anyone? Just my ideas and im always open to discussing and learning!

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I totally agree. I think guys are gonna learn how to aim distance mechanics

[@PastHisPrime336]

You've probably mentioned this before but I had a thought this morning. If you put your throwing arm in the power pocket position you want to get to, for instance 90 degree with elbow hand at left pec, center chest, or right pec. Depending on how deep you want the pocket to get. Then you do a full rotation with torso and shoulder, while keeping the 90 degree pocket. Once you're at full rotation you then extend (unhinge) your elbow. Would that be your "best" reach back position? I noticed if I didn't do that I would "reach" back and collapse the pocket.

[@Grannyknockers]

Pros are more closed off/less rotational in distance comps than on the course. If you watch AB in distance comps, his shoulders are parallel to the target at release, but when he’s bombing a nuke on tour, he opens his shoulders up quite a bit more.

[@elijahkeen93]

Ok. So I started out doing the loose arm “all in the hips” type throw, with decent success, but some struggles when it comes to timing and accuracy. So I’ve been messing with the more arm heavy technique, and it’s kind of blowing my mind. I’m finding when you actively drive the elbow, and let your hips passively do their thing as you weight shift, your hand beats your shoulders to the pocket, and it just clicks. But when I actively cue the hips I find my hand doesn’t always get to the pocket when it should and sometimes lags too much, throwing off my timing and release point. My question : Is cueing the elbow drive and letting the hips work passively kind of the idea behind correctly “arming the disc”?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Absolutely. You got it

[@guyincognito.]

'Arming' the disc means retracting the scapula which bleeds power from the throw. For pros who look like they're arming the disc, they're just allowing for a greater than 90 degree angle between the upper arm and torso but they're not actually 'pulling' their arm through which you can see because the scapula is still in protraction. Release speed comes from the thrower achieving maximum moment arm between body and disc at the point of release, i.e. the arm is extended so the disc is travelling at the maximum angular velocity given the rotation of the torso. This is why your first throw here went so far. Arming the disc by retracting the scapula upsets this motion partly because the moment arm is reduced but also because the core chain of rotational muscles is disrupted, allowing the weak and complex shoulder joint to interfere in the power transfer of the core muscles. The only limb joint that should be mobile in the throw is the elbow so the disc can 'whip' out at the maximum moment arm; this is why the power pocket exists, it adds the speed of the forearm extension to the rotation of the torso. It's nothing to do with 'pulling the disc' in a linear motion through the throw although if done right this looks like what is happening.

[@christophertaylor3904]

guy, sorry but you are way off. The shoulder is the first thing to retract on all power throwers. The upper arm abducts in all power throwers, some just much more than others

[@chazmac2677]

Do you see any relationship to these two different methods and the vertical or horizontal brace?

[@Mr_Ace_Run3000]

Only a real man admits like you did. ❤ We are all human, good stuff brother

[@hcrubjeff]

My initial thought was getting the elbow in a bad relationship to the shoulder increases the chance of injury. If you're ever talking to some of the pros that have an elbow or shoulder injury ask them what was the cause of the injury. Ideally you would teach mechanics that reduce the chance of injury.

[@jan6743]

I have two questions: 1. Which pro's do a linear approach/form? 2. How do you adjust hyzer, flat and anhyzer with a linear approach?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

1. AB, Adam Hammes, and Paige Pierce come to mind. 2. You can make adjustments at the hips and with forearm angle

[@joeillingworth1141]

Which is more consistent for hitting lines? Wiggins also pulls it into his chest and then pushes against that out left to create a deeper pocket and resistance to work against

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Depends on what you’re better at. Some people are super good at aiming with the hand via out in out. Some are better at aiming with the line.

[@professionalgiraffe]

For a beginner, especially a beginner who has not grown up doing other throwing sports, strong-arming the disc feels like the natural best way to get power, which is why it's such a common theme in people new to disc golf and new to sports in general. So it's probably not going to help a whole lot of people to encourage more strong-arming until footwork and leg power is solid, since it will probably make things worse before it makes things better. Once those fundamentals are solid, sure, try to introduce power back in with the arm. There's always some available power left on the table when throwing, and for 90% of beginner/amateurs, it's not in the arm.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Strong arming and using the arm are not the same thing. I’m not encouraging strong arming, but the proper use of it rather

[@chrism-zm8mr]

Josh has the best dry humor

[@fillid1361]

That twirl momentum throw is like matty-o😮

[@french1991toast]

What would you recommend for a shorter person with longer arms? More spin or arm??

[@henrymanahan2764]

you're twirly bird throw was worth the click. That was art.

[@MusicGW]

how wide is wide rail? are you like arms lenght wide or ois there a mark ou should hit?

[@Corrigan65_]

Wish I could go back in time. Start with angular and linear velocity separately and finding the balance. The optimal point where the tweens shall meet.

[@larryvaughn327]

What do you think about slingshot disc golf’s opinion that your arm should stay slack through the throw? Seems like if you could actually pull that off, hyper extension of the elbow would occur. Thoughts?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I do worry about hyperextending the elbow with any kind of forceful out on the backswing. Arm slack through the throw is interesting because you want the arm to be as loose as possible while maintaining correct positions. The question then becomes how loose is as loose as possible.

[@larryvaughn327]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf Thank you for such a fast response. Impressive! So, should there be muscle engagement of the tricep pushing the disc out of the pocket? Or, should a person strive for allowing the elbow to be more of a hinge that lets the forearm and hand fling out due to shoulder rotation? I personally find it very hard to have a loose arm and firm grip simultaneously. Might just be me though.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@larryvaughn327 EMGs show the muscles in the back of the arm firing (elbow drive) at that point the hand takes over the line forward. This is in power throwers. Personally I think the big throwers aren’t using a push out of the pocket but instead more of a pull past it.

[@larryvaughn327]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf Thank you! I was actually wondering if any actual studies had been done to see what is REALLY happening during a throw as opposed to what people think they are doing. That helps to know. Appreciate you sir have a great one

[@JustinHardyisbesthardy]

8:32 Only a sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.

[@babygrand2167]

Can you make a video introducing the disc golf throw so we can send it to brand new disc golfers?

[@luftisbollen]

finally got some sence 😁🙃and Thanks Josh and 66 (106 kmh) nice speed, btw what speed did you have at the start of the channel ?

[@FiyaEmblem93]

Now i have to go specifically do both types of form and see if it changes anything for me. Feels like im consistent at 280-300 feet

[@ortay3]

Could we get a short of you and Mikey showing a spinny boy and a throughy girl throw? With tech disc data?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Probably!

[@ortay3]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf I'd love to see if there are any noticeable differences in RPM

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@ortay3 there are significant differences. Mikey gets more RPM and mine drops a bunch with spinny form

[@ortay3]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf have you guys explored if certain upper body mechanics match with lower body mechanics? Like does spinny shoulders match better with a horizontal or vertical brace? It would be cool to see if some of these movements work better with each other or if you can mix and match.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@ortay3 I have theories and tendencies but I’m not sure how much of that I want to put out there yet

[@polecat3067]

When you talk about the wiggins style throw, how much does shoulder rotation play a part in the arm speed? My understanding is that the shoulders initially drag the arm for a very short time before slowing down and allowing the arm to continue the momentum forward vs a more rotational style throw where the shoulders drag the arm for much longer before slowing down

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I think that’s basically correct. Wiggins shoulders transport the arm obviously but the hand moves twice as fast as his shoulders. Both are moving extremely fast though and you want the shoulders going fast

[@polecat3067]

​@@OverthrowDiscGolf So does the hand move twice as fast at the beginning of the swing or does it continuously accelerate until its faster? I guess I'm just trying to understand how pulling the arm fits into the kinetic chain. If it's the case that the hand moves twice as fast right away, then wouldn't we be able to throw just as far in a complete standstill only pulling the arm as with a run up? The only way that makes sense to me is that you can pull to assist the arm speed only after the momentum has been transferred from the shoulders to the arm.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@polecat3067 that’s from when his right toe touches the ground. But you’ve got to think about how fast the shoulders are varying the arm. It’s additive basically. Like if you were standing on the front of the car. If the car is moving 30mph so are you. If you can jump off the front of it while moving at 10mph then you move at 40mph.

[@johnnyhotkeyz]

Everyone has a slightly different putting technique and no one freaks out. Same for the drive. We’re all built slightly differently, and different body mechanics come into play. There’s no right or wrong, but probably more both-and.

[@blainehock754]

I watch a lot of Will Schustericks rounds, and I think after his shoulder injury he switched to more of a rotational form. Helps explain why he started using a really wide reach. My question is, is there a certain degree compared to my target line that I should reach? Example, my target is 12, should I be reaching towards somewhere between 7-8?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I think the faster the shoulders rotate relative to the hand the wider you have to reach back.

[@wisherb1]

I would love to see more focus on hitting lines and landing zones. Accuracy is way more important than power.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I’ve got it on the docket

[@NastierNate]

Josh, one thing I’m struggling with is the concept of “muscling” the disc which was always one of the big negative buzzwords. How would you differentiate “arming” vs “muscling”?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I’m not sure that I would personally differentiate the two. I think what people are trying to avoid is inefficient use of the arm and they throw out using the arm altogether

[@VarietyDiscGolf]

Class act bro 😎

[@greybearddiscgolf]

I'm not sure you are being fair to yourself. I think I understood what you were getting at, leading with the arm. Probably because I absolutely collapse and lead with my front shoulder.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I went a little too far in combating the collapsed pocket I think.

[@claycarroll6804]

KZbin coaches change their mind more than a woman arranging their living room.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I’m pretty sure they usually don’t

[@derekchessik2739]

I’d like to know which form is more prone to injuries, and if the injuries are different. I could see the twisting being harder on the lower back, and the arming being harder on the shoulder. But that’s just a theory.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

There is a form that’s very arm heavy and I think that overall is more injury prone as it’s a bit more explosive. If you try to crank your shoulders against your hips I do think it is more lower back injury prone. I’ve tried to absolutely crank shoulders/hips before and got to the point where I couldn’t play 9 holes. It wasn’t a long stint but I found out very quickly where the rotational extreme was

[@derekchessik2739]

Combining both forms (arm and twist) together seems to not only have the most potential, but probably the least injury likely for maximal distance. Distributing the force of the throw as evenly as one could across the entire body. I'm really glad you posted this part of the throw, my arm was lacking and adding more arm has given me more distance and a smoother form. Finding the optimal motion in the human body is a lifetime goal, there's over 200 bones and 600 muscles in the human body! To have those all operate in an orchestrated motion! Wow! Thank you so much for your thoughts on this, your wisdom has been improving my game for years now :)@@OverthrowDiscGolf

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

@@derekchessik2739 thanks for the kind words Derek. And congrats

[@TheTchieX]

I've started arming the disc and now it's broken my form. It causes me to collapse the pocket because there is no rotation for my body and my arm/wrist flip the disc on hyzer so I don't hit myself. Now I can only throw 20+deg of hyzer :(.. You have to use the "arm" at the correct moment in the throw which I feel is after you have started your rotational momentum. Time for box drills? ... to see if I can undo this problem.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Arming the disc more would increase the pocket angle. But maybe the intentional maintenance of space with your upper arm is better for you than trying to increase that angle.

[@TheTchieX]

@@OverthrowDiscGolf Yeah I think I need to learn the que of "arming it with my elbow" instead so i maintain the space.

[@gillon123]

I totally buy that both approaches can generate a lot of power; but to me (naively maybe) it feels like having more spin will inherently make it harder to aim/hit your line. Am I wrong for believing that?

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I would tend to agree except for the fact that Paul McBeth exists lol. But he’s a freak athlete who can just finesse his upper body even at distance

[@kylecrittenden4243]

“ I know you guys are sad, so am I” 😂😂😂

[@ChayseGrizzell]

I think it has a lot to do with your genetics and quick twitch muscles. Some who is quick twitch may use more arm, whereas someone who lacks quick twitch muscle fiber will likely be more angular. Same rules apply to ball golf. 2 people with the exact same body build, with the exact same form will not always generate the same amount of power. I'm 5'10" and can hit the ball a lot further than people that are bigger than me, because I have a higher percentage of quick twitch muscle fiber and can generate more swing speed.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

For sure. I think people with faster arms relative to shoulders are going to be able to utilize a linear pull

[@nochruto]

so would you ever reconsider Back foot throwing? =)

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I’ll always reconsider. But Paul using more upper body rotation and even using his back leg more doesn’t mean it is efficient or that you should. Categorically, people should not push or rotate off their back foot when walking up (standstill is different in that you have forced coupling) is my current stance and I don’t see it changing with the research from baseball saying internal rotation is a non-power generator.

[@noch]

@@OverthrowDiscGolflove your willingness to pivot and grow! This is what makes you one of the best channels.

[@Arafax]

I didn't really take the arm the disc video to mean 100% arm so much as to not try to use 0% arm and focus only on rotation, which some sources do recommend.

[@solidstate90]

What about the wrist, It seems like doing the whole wrist curl thing effects my ability to keep a deep pocket

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

Slight wrist curl is preferred!

[@Corrigan65_]

Josh's 2 min 49 sec linear throw would make me happy. To me that's sexy but I'm probably doing a rotational force dominant throw. It's all about fun, right? Give me a break we are so full of shit. Add linear to my cart

[@rongarrison3246]

I wish I could learn it cause it doesn't matter how many videos I watch. I can't get past 250 ft. It's extremely confusing and frustrating. Not matter what I try the end result is the same. 250 at best. Thanks for the vid tho.

[@OverthrowDiscGolf]

I’d check something more fundamental like grip

[@DadAboutIt]

You ripped that thing haha. Damn man.

[@hoodrich4375]

Like Simon Lizotte says: 'Not better..just different'