Parallel Fail! We goofed! Machining & Grinding a 24" Parallel. WW129

We goofed. We recovered! Well sort of. We phoned-a-friend with a surface grinder!
The first of a video series on miling, grinding and scraping in a 24" cast iron parallel!
Surface Gauge: ebay.to/2jDtd2N
Our favorite Test Indicator: amzn.to/2jtpW8r
Core Print Patterns: bit.ly/2hzYRPV
DeBolt Machine: bit.ly/2iFGiKr
Subscribe For More: bit.ly/22CjJoK
Music copyrighted by John Saunders 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH

[@HughesEarthworks]

Paul is very good at explaining his process. Thanks for sharing John!

[@ello-mz6om]

Do you know Demmeler from Germany? They are pretty big! They make their own Tables and have more than 20 CNCs

[@ello-mz6om]

dei muadr

[@jschoenly]

Cabin Fever! Thanks for the shout out John! Hope to have you back sometime! Great to see Paul this weekend as well. Great show and still recovering! Keep up the great work!

[@ruthpenner6995]

John, talk to and video with this guy every chance you get. He's got the knowledge we want.

[@MrLembnau]

my mother used to run a grinder back in the day. she told me that the first thing somebody new in the shop learned is that if somebody yells, you go head to the floor because 90% of the time when someone yells, a part is flying at mach 10 trough the shop.

[@thunderthormx]

I'm really digging the glasses at 6:50. :P

[@caseyknowles9587]

Great video John...really like seeing different people in their element. Older guys with generations of experience are way cool.

[@grahamsengineering.2532]

Hey dude. I'm writing this only 5 minutes into your vid. Know you have learned from your mistake which is good. In Australia we call this soft footing. Very important to use the flatest face if possible and then most importantly befor clamping is to shim the work piece or set on Machine Jacks depending on the job. Then you can proceed to clamp it down using a Dial Indicator at each clamp to check for Deflection. Same deal when levelling say a Lathe. You level on three feet first so you don't have soft foot. Then bring the other jacks down checking your levels for deflection so you only just take the weight without twisting the bed of the machine. Levelling things is an art in itself. Happy Machining.

[@shiro-r4m]

Your glasses are fabulous

[@willw.2294]

I have done parts like you are doing. Since you are starting with a rough casting there are surface stresses within just from the casting process. We would machine all 6 surface and then let it relax a couple weeks outdoors to experience hot and cold or send it out to heat treat it to have it normalized; which is not the same as annealing. Once ready to work on it, begin the grinding using light magnetism or residual magnetism with blocking, just like you did, and grind the working sides and ensure they are square and parallel to each other. Then hand scrape the surfaces to remove high spots and to produce the extreme flatness (less than the .0001" on the indicator), squareness, and parallelism and to create the microscopic pockets so they will hold marking medium (prussian blue, red lead, alcohol, etc.). A parallel for clamping and machining doesn't really need scraped as a ground parallel is going to be close enough for most machining work. Part weight and clamping will also flatten out the parallel's small amount of twist. Where I work, the scrapped parallel is usually a tool for inspection. The ones you find in the catalogs with half moons-scrape marks are for making them pretty; not flat and more accurate. Seeing the scrape marks makes one think it is a precision tool. The Starrett Master level is scraped to make it super flat and to prevent the level from vacuum or wringing itself to the part being levelled. Thanks for sharing in your video.

[@FredMiller]

What an Awesome adventure! Thanks for taking us along! Fred

[@Gottenhimfella]

Just a tip for others: when machining cast iron, it pays to take a sufficiently deep first cut to get well under the skin. It can be really hard on tool edges otherwise. (It's abrasive due to the sand content, and sometimes hard due to rapid chilling). The glazing might have been partly due to the failure to take a deep enough cut, as well as the high rotational speed.

[@broheim23]

John, that is the most informative video I have watched on surface grinding. Thank you for taking the time to record and edit the footage so we can learn from your experience. 👍

[@christopheronstott2358]

Those gauge blocks he showed you are the bomb !! I use them to set up my bore mics or bore gauges , but let me tell you they are pricey , but they are awesome!!

[@63256325N]

That grinder was fantastic. What a tool! I want one just because....thanks for the video John.

[@user990077]

Fascinating. I always learn so much watching your content.

[@TomsToolRoom]

Excellent video on grinding a piece "flat"....................It gets super challenging when you grind a really thin piece!

[@matthewcolvin4815]

Really liked seeing the learning experience! Relaxing the magnet is crazy!!

[@jonburne]

I love these videos where you show where you goofed and how to you came to fix it. Keep up the great work and never forget; everyone goofs, it is not just you ;) .

[@TheNemosdaddy]

Enjoy watching your videos. I'm in Cleveland, nice to hear you're close by. Keep up the good work and have fun at the scraping class!

[@Steve_Just_Steve]

Wow John, this maybe my fav video you've done, but I love grinding. Paul is obviously extremely knowledgeable and seems like a super nice guy. What a treat to be able to get expert help like that. You should talk him into starting a channel lol. That'd be awesome to get some more surface grinder info in addition to the great content from guys like Stan and Rob. Thanks for sharing John.

[@nipz8053]

I left my mark on the back of our surface grinder at work. I completely relate. Great video.

[@landonmiller245]

My favorite video from you! So interesting. I'm a machinist in high school. I have to take a precision grinding class for my automated manufacturing engineer degree and now I look forward to it much more!

[@drawvenmusket]

Hay Jon, enjoy you class and enjoy the time with the others there

[@Sicktrickintuner]

Very cool video, never knew so much went into grinding. And warpage I have ran into many times from heat. Welding a table to weld parts on, burned in one side and had it all clamped down and went to pick it up and the 7'x3' twisted like a corkscrew and turned it into a teeter totter making opposing corners lift by 8"! I had to stand on it, and it sprung flat, burned in the other side and clamped it to my frame. Crazy how 3x4x 1/4" angle can bend so easy with bracing through the middle of it all.

[@Stephen1455]

That is a brilliant way of describing the twisting of materials John, always had to try to use my hands/fingers/draw a picture, but that is top notch!!!

[@SIMIKINGMOTO]

Man this safety glasses at 6:48 LOL :D

[@davidsomething4867]

Takes me back a few years when I was starting in tool making. We had a surface grinder about the same size which I used to use occasionally but mostly used a smaller surface grinder. A work colleague made the mistake of powering down to a diamond dressing tool but the power down locked in place. Never saw anyone move so quick, the dressor held on the magnetic chick but the wheel had a nice groove half inch deep, lol. I was working on the small grinder behind him at the time. Used to do all sorts of thinks like relieve the sides of the wheel so we could grind the stops and other various parts. My favorite task was using a cutting wheel and going through 20mm injector pins in one cut.

[@tylerjones6043]

The brass hammer on a bench does the trick too!! Never gets old.

[@billgreathouse1913]

John you are a great student to your trade. You are proof that school ain't just about tuition. I look forward to your videos every week. those jo blocks that you were shown, the first set, I have seen them bought new for Pratt & Whitney at the low price of $11,000. No...... the coma is in the right spot. that being said, I've also seen them for as low as $2500.

[@JuanRamirez-kt1se]

John, I enjoy your talks on Fusion 360 use so much that I resided to venture into machining. I guess I am hocked. Thanks for the work you do and honoring your grandfather. Keep up the good work. By the way, my birthday is coming up it will be 77.

[@MrCrispinEnterprises]

Hi, You may be interested to know that on a grinding machine such as that the Z axis is actually backwards and forwards, Y is up and down and X is left to right. The spindle orientation normally dictates which axis is which. Cheers. Crispin

[@zedex1226]

NYC CNC the Z axis is parallel with the main spindle. vertical mill, horizontal mill, grinder, horizontal lathe, vertical lathe, doesn't matter. now use the left hand rule with your thumb being the z/main spinle. the longest axis of travel is the x (middle finger) and shorter axis is y (index finger). A rotates about the x axis, B is at 90 degrees to A. there are very few exceptions to this (some machines with oddball work envelopes such as gantry mills will sometimes change up their axis labels with more travel in Y than X)

[@Miseries_Company]

Thats good that you know your limitations and take the advice from specialists.

[@GeofDumas]

wow! that fine feed would come in handy so often. what a nice machine

[@GeofDumas]

NYC CNC can't disagree with that. I just mean for the sake of speed. that kind of adjustment can be done on my old Boyer Shultz but only slowly and very carefully

[@occamssawzall3486]

NYC CNC Ya. But give a carpenter a crappy chisel, bent nails and broken hammer and I don't think you're gonna get fine cabinetry... The quality of the tools are still essential.

[@Mtaalas]

This is a great video, young machinist learning from the older and experienced one... :)

[@flatheadronsgarage7345]

The guy is a master. Your straight edge will be a work of art when completed, I'd be happy with it now though. Recently picked up an Abrasive 1 1/2 myself and looking forward to doing work similar to this when it's going, Putting 3 PH in now, Excellent video Sir... Thank You

[@sbirdranch]

Joe Blocks! I have an old set of these with Pratt and Whitney's name on them. Didn't expect to get that out of this video. Big thanks to Paul.

[@BasementShopGuy]

I believe that the irregular design of the hump back better prevents movement from temperature fluctuation.

[@gordo3di]

This is a really cool video. I'm loving just learning more.

[@randelljones4002]

Assumeing that is a raw casting you had made it needs to be normalized before Machineing and or grinding. It has to relax it's internal tensions from being poured. Put it in the oven at 500 degrees for several hours (after supper to bedtime for example) to relieve the stresses. Hope this helps some, keep up the good work

[@colinsmith1410]

This is what I love about your videos John, I always feel like we are learning at the same time. Still trying to get my head around the twist in a cast part. Very interesting stuff. Keep up the good work. (nice T-shirt by the way ;) )

[@arnljotseem8794]

what a cool friend to have around.

[@MyShopNotes]

Learn every day. That's where the fun is.

[@TomMakeHere]

I've got a lot to learn about grinding Great video

[@Gkuljian]

Speaking of scary grinder stories. I had a machine tool instructor who was working on a grinder with his teacher, when the wheel exploded and took the guys scalp off, killing him. Well one night when I was working in the tool crib, sharpening endmills, we went out to the grinding room to cut off the end of a milling cutter, and just as that short piece of endmill came off, it wedged the wheel, and exploded. We looked at each other like some ghost had just passed by, and decided to let him live another day.

[@sliccreations]

I'm really looking forward to any videos you do on scraping.

[@RangerM98]

A thought I had to automate the magnetic release based on hold down power vs spark/sparkout level....could really create accuracy, precision and repeatability as well as not having to rely on manual ability / expertise....CNCs are awesome!....some day I might get around to making some sort of program for that idea!....thanks to everyone involved in this video...it truly was awesome and insightful!

[@thehollowbox]

A tip I've learned for cast iron is to throw a couple of fridge magnets around the mill or lathe. It catches the dust and helps prevent it from getting in your machine.

[@craigs5212]

John, thanks for showing one of Paul's catalog pages in the video. I just ordered one of his tramming rings. Been wanting one of these for a long time -- nice coincidence. Have fun at Kieth's don't get too blue.

[@RangerM98]

AWESOME video content Bro!...thanks

[@lawrencekimmel352]

I always loved machining cast iron.

[@BradPow]

cast iron sparks out forever. and it's springy. I spent 5 years in a grinding shop and had lots of flattening jobs for cast iron. a fun challenge at times

[@BradPow]

NYC CNC not normally i find. it depends on the finish needed. ive sparked out mild steel for over an hour with a .003" crossfeed for a satellite imaging part. And I've sparked out parts for just 30 seconds.

[@davestrong6472]

Did you grind the two parallels together to get them identical in height? Dave

[@Dartmouth_CNC]

Dave Strong that's what I was thinking the whole time

[@davestrong6472]

PipeLeisure c I would have machined the sides too. Just purchased a Biax scraper, can't wait to learn the art.

[@Molb0rg]

I bet, he is not, and that would be pointless eventually, when he will scrape them

[@JaakkoF]

It is easier to grind them at the same time, but it isn't a requirement to grind to of the same. To make two of the same in different setups just needs careful measuring, nothing special to it.

[@lariwoo]

Did you get the biax new or used? how much did you pay if you don't mind me asking?

[@titus142]

Those are some sweet ass safety glasses.

[@stephenmcdaniel1941]

Nice vid! On warped or irregular parts I like to use a couple screwyballs (outsidescrewball #16) under the part, and then clamp it to an angle. It keeps the part from getting sucked down on the chuck.

[@larsmark]

Haha, I just love those old lady glasses you have at Pauls shop 😅

[@cavemansmancave9025]

So funny. I was going to ask you for Paul's name. I couldn't remember it and misplaced his business card. DOH! We have a few small one off parts to get turned around quickly. I got busy (I was at Sam's shop) and didn't get to ask and here it is. So, thanks. 😊 John

[@mistijim]

Sweet safety glasses.

[@TomWalterTX]

There is more learning in this video that I had every realized. Thank You & Debolt Machine. My mind is racing this morning, great stuff! Lautard, in one of his Bed Side Reader Books, shows how to inspect a surface plate. Great tip when buying used (If I ever move, how the heck will I lift that 300# thing!)

[@andrewgiles6192]

John rocking the 70's disco safety glasses :D

[@Its_just_the_process]

Fascinating video!

[@mrbmp09]

The granny glasses kill me !!!! LOL

[@Ughwhatevs]

Fascinating!

[@cornnatron3030]

lol love the fancy designer glasses .

[@bstevermer9293]

A camel back straight edge is much wider and has a relief angle cut, so you can spot into dove tails. A large parallel like what your making is very useful.but not as a spotting transfer gage for tool rebuilding. I've found when using a Bridgeport, the table will flex the farther you get it out. The saddle is actually very small for how fare the table can travel . Looks like fun, Richard king is A character you will love the class.

[@jessefoulk]

wow. I enjoyed this episode.

[@ntdanny]

note at the start of the grinding the dull orange colour of the sparks that cast iron gives off whereas steel gives off a brighter more yellow spark, you can use this as a way to identify cast iron from steel if you are unsure what you have.

[@bcbloc02]

Machining gets you close, grinding or burnishing gets you real close. :-) Your parallels were likely fat in the middle from the knee rocking on the Bridgeport. Holding less than .001 over several foot length on a knee mill can be a real challenge. I did a video about that called "how to do precision work with a worn machine"

[@occamssawzall3486]

bcbloc02 How much of that video has to be cut due to cursing? Lol

[@nder12345]

ice one John. Its a pain in the ass to get castings parallel. I cant wait for the scrapfest footage I attended a 2 day scraping class here in Australia unfortunately we couldn't afford to fly richard across the pond. I assume you did this before getting your new grinder. One tip is place a thin rubber sheet under the job between the magnet it helps it pulling flat

[@ChrisMuncy]

Very fascinating.

[@mikenixon9164]

Good video John is this what caused you too buy a grinder?

[@CAULEYJR]

When you come to GA I would be thrilled to meet you! I live about 20 minutes away from tifton.

[@CAULEYJR]

NYC CNC definitely!! email me at [e-mail] I will give you my contact info!

[@BillyTpower]

Do they sell men's clothes where you bought those glasses?

[@douglaslodge8580]

Great video.

[@outsidescrewball]

Great video....curious are you going to have a matched set, it wasn't clear in the video if that was also the goal in the grind....a matched set would be tits!

[@886014]

John the reason for the camel backs is because they're stiffer per weight. You mentioned several times the weight, now imagine lifting that weight on and off a machine dozens of time to spot a way etc. The other thing you will discover in Richard's class is the effect of heat and just how much metal moves. Scraping is a whole different level of precision. Sorry but I only really post videos on KZbin to pass them on to people I know, but on my channel you can see a short 18" camel back I scraped "flying" on my plate. My 3' camelback won't quite fly because of the tolerances in the plate, but it comes close. Yes yes I know, I need to get decent videos up! Paul did a very good job of grinding that parallel. Now the bad news. It didn't need to be that accurate before scraping, and you could have taken out than wind with a Biax in relatively short time. Rich will have a Biax (power scraper) to show you in the class. Also the first thing you will do is scrape off that nicely ground surface before it even hits a plate. A well ground surface won't spot properly and will be just one big useless smear. The chances are Paul got them so close you won't do much scraping on those parallels, so you may want to take a smaller piece of cast with you and practice scraping it square. Rich should be able to show you how to self-prove a block to extremely square on all sides using just a surface plate and dial indicator. Good luck with the course, enjoy it, be prepared to say "wow!" a lot ... and say hi from Pete in Oz.

[@886014]

Good idea John. However you have a very good eye and hands, and an attitude of perfection, so I think you'll pick up scraping very quickly. To be honest I know even Rich agrees that basic scraping isn't very hard. But scraping to alignment is another thing entirely and much more difficult. So if you get a chance to scrape something to square (for example) try to jump at the opportunity even if you personally feel you haven't fully mastered the scraping technique. Scraping well is just practice, but getting shown how to then align something is gold. A cheap angle plate makes a good crash test dummy.

[@zed65656]

Glad it turned out ok in the end after all.

[@CalebKraftmakes]

I've done hot glass and had to deal with the stresses and relaxing that happen as it cools, I never even considered that it would be an issue with cast iron. I guess it is pretty much the same thing though.

[@chrisstephens6673]

Not just cast iron, ordinary rectangular cold rolled mild steel will warp if you only machine one side.

[@johnhomeyer2093]

Stress relieving will really help out on that

[@JimTaylor42]

For parallelity, after grinding one side flat, is it best to turn the part end-to-end when the other side is ground, or not.

[@xanokothe]

I am starting to undestand why grinding is more precise than other methods. The grinder is basic just a wheel, so the contact surface is smaller and average by itself. The table is the thing that moves making it the center point. Really interesting.

[@Keith_Ward]

All of the grains in a grinding wheel are just really tiny cutters that remove really really small chips. Much smaller amounts than anything else could cut, therefore much more precise.

[@samclarke161]

As well grinders you only take off tenths at a time or risk parts flaying off the mag. Seen a few guys do it, scary as hell as it becomes a bullet.

[@deeremeyer1749]

If you don't get that "grinding" is the least precise "machining" process possible because the grinding wheel is constantly shrinking and professionals in the field will only at most claim their processes/machines will "hold" a "tolerance" (as opposed to ACHIEVING A SPECIFICATION) of .001 then you're clearly a noob fool who like all the other noob fools has no clue how stupid all this "precision grinding" propaganda is. Precision grinding HISTORICALLY was NOT and still IS NOT for REAL MACHINISTS a "machining" process and was/is only done by PROFESSIONALS to achieve a certain SURFACE FINISH on "non-precision" parts. You won't find a single surface grinder in a real machine shop equipped with quality machine tools operated by real machinists. They're only needed by fools and noobs like NYC CNC here who fuck up the original machine work with improper process and/or crappy tools and need to "fix" improper machine work with a "pretty" surface the clueless "customer" will think indicates "precision" and "accuracy". Some TURDS CAN BE POLISHED AND THAT'S WHERE SURFACE GRINDERS "SHINE".

[@zachaliles]

DEEREMEYER1 show us on the bear where the surface grinder touched you.

[@aly-tek7190]

Awesome. Perfect timing, I am just bidding on that exact same surface grinder :D

[@OleTheRealG]

we had the very same at school, its great! At work we have a newer model also :)

[@waynep343]

i just imagine your shop in a few weeks with machinery all torn down while you scrape the ways to perfection. got to get your surface plate lapped though. loose machinery bugs me no end. but it cannot be avoided sometimes.. thanks for a great video

[@h2opower]

Get some glass for the table for the end checking as they are nice and flat.

[@davidbiser7231]

Is that what the feather clamps are for. Using residual magnetism.

[@namecollision]

The reason for the "camel back" straight edges is to prevent them from bending under its own weight. Things you think are solid, aren't. Rich set up a bridgeport table on a work bench and indicated it with his KingWay tool. Then he had all 10 of us stand at the other work bench. Our weight on the concrete floor was enough to move the indicator a couple tenths. We were not touching the workbench. Your parallels are so nice and flat it will almost be a shame to scrape them. Then again, scraping them to exactly the same height will be challenge. A fun project for me was doing a 6" angle plate. It took awhile, but I got all surfaces flat, parallel and perpendicular within a 2~3 tenths. It still amazes me that can be done with hand tools. Andy

[@chrisstephens6673]

Indeed, a camel back and a parallel have different purposes. In short, one is a straight edge the other is for packing.

[@Stephen1455]

With any contact, especially with a wheel that wide, surely heat is a factor without coolant to start?

[@giuliobuccini208]

There was no way to clamp the piece at both ends hanging it "on the air"? Maybe some 123-blocks with screws pushing at both sides of the vertical faces of the bar? (I.e. applying a transversal force at bar's ends and keeping it lifted up from the table surface).

[@dannyoktim9628]

Nice webbing on those parallels, may I suggest if you ever make them again have the webbing stop short about 2 inches from the end. This will give you enough room for a half inch bolt down hole when you need to secure them to your work surface. Good point out concerning the placement of the diamond on the surface grinder!

[@tallbrian100]

Back at my first job I ground 14' stright edges. 1 tenth per foot was the tolerance. They took about 9 hours each to grind. They sold for $4000 each in 1985.

[@TINRFD]

Yeah, surface grinding is more about the "feeling" and hearing, than dialing in a value...learned that in the past, too.

[@anthonyambler9688]

I spent a day as a apprentice trying to get a casting flat doing the exact same thing kept clamping the twist out only for it to come back when realised. One of the old timers took pity on me in the end and showed me how to shim using a indicator so your just getting a tiny deflection when clamped down

[@jack303030]

Why didn't you shim it on the magnet to prevent it from deforming?

[@occamssawzall3486]

ikke Shimming wouldn't do anything. It's the force of the magnets pull that causes the warpage. That's why they were turning the magnet down to let it relax

[@mrail3]

ikke The magnet will warp it by pulling the un-flat surface of the part again the flat chuck. If you shim properly, the magnet just pulls the part against the shims, which duplicate the irregularities of the part, thus causing no deformation and allowing a flat grind. The same applies with milling. The only difference is the force comes from physical clamps instead of the magnet.

[@jeremys5904]

Because that would have made too much sense and they wanted to stand around like goofs making a goof video.

[@forrestaddy9644]

I can answer the points you raised and can discuas how best to get long work straight and flat on a Bridgeport. But two wayconversation would be best. How do I get in touch with you.

[@niceandcloudy]

DeBolt is the man. You are too Saunders...

[@starboy2525]

Did you have the casting stress relieved between machining and grinding before you scrapped it in? I don’t know how critical that is to stability.

[@darkwinter6028]

How about some fixturing alloy to hold it without twist?

[@bigjarn]

The hump back is a definite purpose flat straight surface used to check lathe ways and other machine surfaces.

[@wireflight]

dude, if you started filming this video in your at-home shop, wow! that's totally sick! and if you got lucky enough to film where you work, well that also awesome. keep the vids coming; I don't have that sort of resources (yet?) but it gives me a better idea of what I need and how to achieve the results I want.

[@mikeingram3186]

You should have put the piece on a surface plate after you have milled it. While on the surface plate you use an indicator and shim stock to make the part sit flat. You mark all of your shim stock locations then transfer the shim stock and the part to the surface grinder and turn on the magnet just like normal and grind the piece. In. Once the surface sparked out check the part on a surface plate re-shim and regrind as needed. Doing it this way will allow you to see how flat the part is while not being chucked up. Do note that you only have to shim one side and when you grind the second side there should be no shim stock.

[@WatchWesWork]

That is how I would do it. He didn't help anything by attacking it with that Bridgeport.

[@deeremeyer1749]

You should try learning the differences between "flat" and "level" and "parallel".

[@roadiesgarage3816]

Is that a salvagnini in the background?

[@sblack48]

Regarding a camelback vs a parallel is that the camelback is much deeper. Stiffness is proportional to the square of the depth. The rib is going to be thinner on the camelback than the 2nd parallel side so the whole thing will be lighter and stiffer. If you are working in scraping all day everyday that parallel is going to be exhausting to work with. Also, I think if you use that parallel in the shop for mill setups etc it will not keep its precision. A precision straightedge should be used for scraping and otherwise kept in a box or otherwise kept away from dust and chips. And my Grandma had glasses like that! Great video.

[@billanderson5246]

Are you going to video tape the King scraping class? I took it several years ago and found it well worth the time and effort. I use the video's that were taken in my class as refreshers since I'm not scraping all the time. Be sure to ask about the King-Way Aligner. Say hi to Rich for me. bill a - NE Georgia