Parkour and Rough Play | Rafe Kelley | EP 343

Ep. 343
Watch Jordan Peterson's "Vision & Destiny" on DW+ bit.ly/3KrWbS8
Peterson draws upon his extensive research and relatable real-life experiences to illustrate how to develop attainable goals for intimate relationships, meaningful friendships, and your career. Transform the chaotic potential of the future into actuality - with a vision.
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and parkour expert Rafe Kelley discuss the importance of rough-and-tumble play for developing children, how a lifestyle centered around movement can expand our grasp and involvement with the natural world, and why society should value masculine activities, rather than adhering to the push for feminization in all aspects of modern life.
Rafe Kelley is an entrepreneur and advocate for a lifestyle centered around human movement. He suffered at a young age from ADHD, causing him to struggle in school. As it would happen, he came into contact with a mentor who recognized his need for play, encouraged time in nature, and taught him to productively roughhouse. This quickly resulted in Kelley advancing in his studies, launching him on his life path. In college, he studied anthropology and evolutionary biology, falling in love with martial arts and parkour along the way. He would go on to establish the first parkour gym on the west coast, Parkour Visions, before developing a new fitness lifestyle based on primal movement that Kelley calls “Evolve, Move, Play.”
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- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming Up
(1:57) Intro
(3:33) Rafe’s early childhood and ADHD
(5:18) The balance between the mother and father roles
(7:24) Early age crisis and mentorship
(10:57) Play and murder
(13:00) The expansion of reflex
(15:22) Cultural need for roughhousing
(18:50) Provocation and response
(22:22) Dogs need to jaw-spar
(24:39) Why people tease each other
(25:03) Lunch Bucket, initiating play
(27:08) A game that scales, low resolution maps
(30:50) Banning tag, 7 minute recess
(33:10) Women and rough-and-tumble play
(35:38) Identity confusion is late game exploratory play
(38:47) Video games out-compete traditional play
(41:39) 5 fundamental connections with the world
(44:01) Playing with children, building confidence
(51:10) Laughter on the deeper level, learning the rules
(53:35) Tools and targets
(55:30) Wrestling with god: the physical deepens the spiritual
(57:39) Animals, play, and competence hierarchies
(1:00:23) Rats, micro-victories and micro-defeats
(1:04:26) Playing with a less-abled partner, self handicap
(1:07:00) Parkour: exploratory locomotive play
(1:09:50) The jump that calls to you
(1:11:03) The highest obstacle is the greatest affordance
(1:15:34) Scaling parkour down for the uninitiated
(1:17:06) Jack White, playing on the edge
(1:18:31) Movement variation, multi-level DNA mapping
(1:22:41) Invoking the spirit of voluntary challenge
(1:23:59) Hostile brothers, dueling spirits
(1:25:34) Mapping physical and emotional courage
(1:32:34) Evolve. Move. Play.
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[@patriceschroeder6396]

There was also a time when moms opened the door and told kids to get out and play…with very little regulation…I remember tree climbing, sliding down dirt hills, having rock fights, water fights, walking single file on tall walls, plucking fresh oranges of neighborhood trees, playing ball in the streets, tussling, fighting, name calling etc. I am so grateful we were allowed and had the freedom to just be kids!

[@Loompius]

Lmao good ol' rock fights.

[@rg1whiteywins598]

Parents use to let kids work things out on their own. We had Park board activities in summer and these twin girls picked on me so I fought them. I always won but none of us got injured. And I think the reason of that is because we did roughhouse with our fathers. We knew limits.

[@sarahalderman3126]

This is exactly how my children are right now! One of the many benefits of living in a rural farming community and homeschooling ❤️

[@joejoe809]

Glad I grew up in the 60’s.

[@effexon]

@@fun---- I heard one woman was assaulted as kid by other older girl.... so it can go all ways too. In city more people, so harder to do that and as kid I remember it is more stressful too coz we humans have this sense of alertness when other people are around, especially with strangers(it is good thing but stress is demanding and get tired fast). Same is with kids and violence. So im not in favor of letting people "solve it by themselves" like some suggest for kids, even adults cant do it without hierarchies and things in place.

[@anem0nia]

At first I was like "I don't have time to watch this" and now I'm like "oh thank God I watched this" amazing interview!

[@andreabuzzolan9807]

Yea weird title

[@dyingvine]

A lot of these get released as podcasts that you can listen to when you have time.

[@tredevroe9751]

I was going to skip at first and well, but I'll give it a go after seeing this. Thanks

[@kimberleywarren8679]

I was a preschool teacher in an urban setting. This conversation makes me think we have been doing preschool all wrong! Mitigating all risk and conflict, we rob children of adventure and fun.

[@Artcore103]

yep, and learning their limits, others limits, and what is safe / what produces physical consequences. they can't just be told what danger vs safety is, they have to experiment and experience it and find that line, then they will know it and respect it much better.

[@1s3ngr1m]

you won't aquire resilience (mental and physical) and independence without challenging yourself out of your comfort zone. That even means the occassional bruises, scratches and hard falls. My father early taught me how to treat wounds as he was a paramedic and how to responsibly play rough. He taught me if i make a fire to make it in a place it can not spread, to put a bucket of water beside it (for extinguishing it...and for burnt fingers) and i got my first knife (small, but razor sharp) when i was 6 (still have it, never hurt someone with it except myself...unintentional and in the early days). A good teacher lets kids do their own learning but channels their juvenile boldness. Kids HAVE TO to climb, run, jump. It's their nature. They WILL fall...but they will get up again and IF taught that falling, bruising will go away and will become less it will instill in them to get better. Just see that the ground they fall on has no sharp edges and if they get scratches, patch them up. THAT is responsible teaching. Invariably there will be times when a teacher thinks he/she went too far with letting kids have a long line...but kids CAN'T be supervised at all times. These kids will register that dumb ideas will hurt most of the times themself. The moment they overstress their abilities, they learn it the hard way. But they learn. Like me, 12 years old trying to sleigh down a very steep mountainside...i had all the way home to think how to explain my torn clothes, my bleeding knee, the scratches, the broken (brand new) sleigh...

[@danielrobert4219]

Hi Kimberly, during the pandemic I was working as a 'lunchtime assistant' at a primary school in the inner city. My job was basically to punish any 'rough' play. When I say there were fights and tears every 5 minutes, I'm not exaggerating. Complete opposite of my primary school days when we spent the entire playtime fighting for fun, but in 6 years none of us had an actual fight

[@kathiefleming2830]

Kindergarten is about Not intruding ppl’s personal space. My 5 year old grandson calls himself “the space invader”

[@Artcore103]

@@danielrobert4219 that's a parenting (or lack thereof, or bad examples of parents who can't control their emotions), cultural, or single mom issue more than a play issue. Rough play and fighting aren't close to the same thing. Sad fact, inner city black kids are just more violent for the reasons listed above, in addition to the school environment. Modern schooling is not well designed for boys especially. Jordan Peterson has had some great discussions about this.

[@sarahtyloch8816]

“Lunch Bucket” deserves its own segment. So many people are raising children who are guilted out of banter and afraid of “hurting” feelings. Then you end up with more and more victims because the tiniest comments, often even just feedback, is taken as bullying. The kids cannot distinguish banter or feedback from bullying and they hide away in their room feeling sorry for themselves and watching tv shows that perpetuate a cycle of despair.

[@jonnyschaff7068]

Jordan Peterson should find lunch bucket and interview him and we can see if Lunch Bucket has benefited from his abuse

[@A.E.Lanman777]

Thats just what I would expect "Lunch Bucket" to say.

[@amihere383]

Literally what I’m going through right now. My coworkers are a bunch of ole boomers, mechanics. They would throw banter around, barely even insults, by sensitive little fee fees couldn’t take it until I realized they were only poking fun. If anything, it’s more of a test of character. If you can take the little jab and throw back something witty, you might realize it actually feels really good to have someone hit you with something a little sensitive and be able to just brush it off. If you can brush that off, if that little joke doesn’t bother you, what greater struggles can you take?

[@lukegriffiths4333]

Not just victims. It creates monsters. Lunch Bucket “responded with too much aggression when he was provoked”. If someone lets that build up too long, with too little differentiation between levels of aggression, they just explode and it can be violent to the extreme when they do.

[@jaquirox6579]

I support this topic!! I would be all over content about lunch bucket!

[@WoWisdeadtome]

I feel like rough housing is not only beneficial but necessary. My nephew was almost in very serious trouble, as in wondering if he could stay in school because he kept "choking" other kids at recess, trouble. I pointed out he was 6 years old and in grade one, has anyone explained to him why he can't put pressure on people's throats? The answer from everyone (all women incidentally) was just a variation on "he ought to know better". But why? He's six and while he can be reasoned with, he doesn't accept "because I said so" as a reason. I didn't accept that as a reason for anything at 6 years old either, I still don't at 40. So I took it upon myself to roughhouse with both him and his 4 year old brother and I waited. Sure enough at one point he grabbed his brother around the neck from behind, but there was no anger in it, huge smile on his face and a playful "ahhhhh". When I stopped him he immediately protested, I could tell he's been in trouble for this before. He stopped protesting when I told him he wasn't in trouble but he needed to listen to me for a second. I explained to him that pulling on someone's neck like that can stop them from breathing and so without meaning to you can seriously hurt or kill them doing that. Now he understood WHY everyone was so upset with him and he never did it again after that. He had already been labeled a psychopath by his teacher, a label she didn't seem to drop even after the behavior ended, but he didn't have any of the markers for it. He's not anti-social, he's not cruel to animals, etc. He's 11 now and there have been no further accusations of violence from him since. He just didn't understand and, for some reason (I suspect regular watchers of your content can guess the reason), the adults all attributed malice to a six year old boy for normal play and not understanding anatomy.

[@kate-wo1pg]

He is lucky to have you

[@BASEDHITLORLOVER14n88]

Women and mothers are so clueless when it comes to that stuff, they just end up emasculating and humiliating young boys, why?

[@jessikruger3219]

As a mother of two boys so far this was very educational! My husband luckily grew up with uncles who picked on him, played, wrestled and loved him. I told him recently that I had sisters and a baby brother and there was very little emotional teasing or rough play when we were very small and he needs to be in charge of the boys rough housing. I want my boys to be strong emotionally and physically like their father and I know I can’t be in charge of their rough play every time because they will be too girly😂 Boys need their dads❤

[@evanbagis7405]

This discussion is gold, it explains why as I got older I lost so many friends and why my relationships failed. It also explains why the word art follows the word martial and why the people in martial arts are some of the most well behaved and sound. Thanks guys for reminding us what it feels to be a kid again.

[@chrisalister2297]

I can see in your comment, I can see that a person with extensive time spent in martial arts, it would instill a source of personal confidence. Making it more difficult to be mentally penetrated by pettiness from others.

[@mozartboll]

I took a weekend course with Rafe Kelley like nine years ago. Being 48 yo and almost the only woman among 15 well trained younger men I was nervous what I got myself signed up for. It was a profound experience. Like reclaiming my childhood, experiencing fear locked in my body, old trauma but everything was worked on in this generous group of people. Women need this! Everyone does!

[@RafeKelley]

Nice to hear from you Annika. Glad the experience was great for you and I agree we need this for women and men.

[@alessiosandro123]

@Nah I think controlling of emotions comes for females easier not when the have rough and tumble play with the father, but an honest outspoken relationship with their mother, where you could be confrontational

[@terrafarmer48]

Yes!! 🙌🙌🙏💗

[@trottingsparrow]

I hope you come back. A lot has changed since then. More fun is to be had!! I need more people to play with.

[@alessiosandro123]

@Nah because rough and tumble play isnt essential for strong femininity, think about it. Its essential for a strong masculinity. Its the nature of the movement to let masculinity grow and play, its not a feminin movement. Thats no to say its bad for a women :D please dont get it the wrong way, I dont say anything that its bad or someting. I just say that its not essential for a strong women in her feminin. Maybe you are strong because you pull strength from the masculine...

[@mangr3n]

Since I watched this, I've shared it with my wife. We both had deep emotional reactions to this video. I've spent the last 2 days drawing my step-children into some physical games. We started by setting up a space for log wrestling. I played foot tag with my step-son. We turned our log wrestling game into an obstacle course game in order to do something a little different. They are moving into spring break and I'm planning to take them for an hour each day on a walk on trails near our house to see if we can engage in some natural movement exploration. We have some ADD/ADHD diagnoses in the family, and some school learning/focusing issues.

[@choylicook7021]

This is AWESOME! 😁

[@nano7586]

That sounds like you have a really good relationship if you can share these sort of thoughts with your wife.

[@biddydibdab9180]

I’m 70, my husband is 73. In the summer we tear our mountain bikes along roads to the hills of abandoned gravel pits where we race each other up and down the hills and cliffs yelling and screaming with terror and delight. In winter we snowshoe out to our farm fence line where the snow piles into huge drifts. We ditch our snowshoes to body toboggan snow-blind on the drifts, rolling down the longer drifts and shoving each other in terror down the invisible cliff edge thudding snow covered at the bottom. In our earlier years we did this occasionally. Once I got a terminal cancer diagnosis with six months to live, I refused treatment and we started to play every day. We’ve been playing for two years and we just pulled our bikes out of the storage shed to get ready for spring riding. I have no time to be sick and I’m too fit and happy to die. The moral is, play always makes life better regardless of age. Soon the water will flow in the ditches and we’ll build a log raft that might hold us while anticipating with horror the moment that it sinks, dumping us into the icy rush of the melt.

[@BlueberryLoveMuffinn]

I remember my friend breaking a rib from falling out of a tree, and all our dads said was, “Oh well, he’ll/they’ll/you’ll hold on tighter next time.” I’m SO GRATEFUL I grew up in the last generation to have such freedoms!

[@chrisalister2297]

I agree with that, but to a degree. A parent shouldn't go overboard on comforting. Still, it's a learning/teaching moment. The dad could have asked....how did this happen? What could have been done differently so it might not have happened. It's those probing questions that triggers a child's mind to think beyond tunnel vision.

[@gyro_elongated1285]

Definitely not the last generation just less common now

[@MrMarccj]

This is the best podcast you've done in a while Jordan, perfect balance of talking and listening, fascinating topic, practical advice. Awesome.

[@elektrotehnik94]

Agreed, a much better balance of talking & listening 🏆❤️

[@SouthernOR]

Rafe was able to own his space in this conversation.

[@nickletica]

I’ve been doing parkour for 8 years now, and parkour vision is 100% a real thing! This goes for other objects too, like railings and certain pieces of architecture.

[@adrianslim4928]

That's awesome! It's like that with skateboarding as well. Always looking for street skate spots. I even look for them while watching shows or movies.

[@sangmadewira4726]

I'm 17, i could talk perfectly fine with my family, but ive NEVER been able to 'fit in' and play out more dynamic and complex interactions in school, especially high school where aggression and skill is alot more integrated. Only after this video did i finally figure out what my curse is: I never had enough competitive play. I wasnt very agile and a little extra sensitive during primary school, just enough to make me dislike joining soccer and basketball games with other boys since i would misplay and get upset. My parents also had the false idea that i would magically become sociable eventually so they just let me watch youtube unrestricted 24/7 (surprise surprise, i discovered porn very early). My older brother, the only person i really talk to, is too meek and emotional for me to engage in competitive play. My family had the perfect temperament to let my aggression lay dormant and unnoticed, thus unintegrated. I also noticed this deep flaw emerge more coherently when i had to play basically soccer with a frisbee recently and when i entered the peak adrenaline moment right before snatching the frisbee from my opponent, i literally laughed audibly and uncontrollably like a maniac, it was completely involuntary. I couldnt control the excitement in me, i never practiced afterall, so the excitement literally blew out of me. It's kind of upsetting to have discovered this so late, but i guess better late than never. At least now i know exactly where i am and where to take the next small step. Edit: LMAO i didn't realize how unbearingly long this post became. Thx for reading if you did, you're a cool one.

[@connorquerin]

Thank you for sharing man.

[@doubtshadow1]

Take up jiu jitsu or muay thai boxing. It'll remedy this exact issue, and you'll meet a good group of men of all types to engage and bond with. If you spend even three hours a week strangling various partners, and you don't become buddies? Something is wrong 😆

[@lukas1to249]

Yo im 17 in October and im in almost same situation, played much videogames when i was child and then when i began going to the street i always met older people ( who didnt like to play same as me bc of their age ) but bro 2 years ago i joined kickboxing and it makes you competitive and you play a lot with people ( at least in my gym) :)

[@lukas1to249]

​@@doubtshadow1true bro ❤😁

[@persnipoles]

Excellent self-report. Nodded along all the way through.

[@forrestrose6031]

"Invite people back into thier body" Total genius. I watch the hands off approach in public schools every day and see what a disservice it is doing to the kids development especially kids diagnosed with adhd, etc. Thank you both, I loved this conversation. My father in law who is 84 got to box as a form of school yard conflict resolution with his principal as referee. We NEED more of these spaces provided for kids.

[@thecoolestofthe834s2]

You mean he beat up who ever the principal said to and got his rocks off to it also what if a kid during the fight grabs a weapon or rock lol I can make a shiv out of anything

[@shapshooter7769]

​@@thecoolestofthe834s2 Principal as referee. He oversaw the fight, not started it.

[@alvareo92]

@@thecoolestofthe834s2 "what if a kid during the fight grabs a weapon or rock" the referee stops him because it's not allowed in the rules

[@davidspain1952]

It’s the ultimate comeback story! Going from near death to Jordan ‘Parkour’ Peterson in less than five years. I wanna see a wall flip by June.

[@kate-wo1pg]

🥰😎yes

[@WhizzingFish12]

This is the happiest I've ever seen Jordan. It's really sweet and shows his human side.

[@calebdoner]

Learning to partner dance was that extremely transformative physical interaction for me. It is how I learned to interact with the opposite sex and gain the capacity for a romantic relationship. At it's most basic form, it is a game of romance and courtship to practice those interactions in a mutually beneficial way.

[@ianhansen6840]

Well said! Me too with Swing Dance as a kid.

[@shapshooter7769]

​​@@trequor Then you have hip-hop and that became a battle zone for money, status and fame instead. And it's fun as hell. Ballroom almost seems sedate by that standard - unless it's swing.

[@TecnamTwin]

​@@shapshooter7769 Not sedate at all. Just takes more skill and finesse that impatient minds can't handle, instead wanting the instant gratification of big bold moves that are showy and more easy to coordinate then the controlled, delicate grace of an actual ballroom dance, not just swaying back and forth.

[@stevelindsay3643]

This is one of the most interesting interviews Dr. Peterson has done. We need more of this rough-and-tumble play in our kids growing up. I had a rough scrappy upbringing. Our family farm was less than 1/2 a mile from the village. We had competitions all the time more like dares and lots of wrestling matches on the grass at the recreation center. We jumped our bikes and wiped out all the time. As we got older the games got rougher, instead of bicycles we had dirt bikes, and instead of wrestling we had boxing matches. We were right on the Rideau river so we had aluminum fishing boats for the summer and snowmobiles in the winter we would ski behind and street hockey all year round. Once we were about 13/14/15 years old we got field cars and made a race track on our farm in an old gravel pit. The competitions were fierce and plenty of fights but we always made up after we chilled out. It was actual racing with categories depending on how many cylinders your car had. It was a twisty hilly track and the goal was the first one to complete 20 laps or the last car running. I'm 60 years old now and kids today don't have the freedom to do any of that and it's a shame. Kids need to burn energy and compete with each other, but fairly and have some leadership. We only have one childhood and home life isn't always very good so having comradery and friendships are incredibly important. I know myself and other friends needed the freedom and get away from home. Home for me was doing my farm chores every day 24/7/365,m haying in the summer, getting crops in the ground in the spring and harvesting in the fall. Our farm was a family ancestral Dairy Farm in the family for 200 years and still is. That means the cows get milked morning and night and they never take a holiday. Feeding, corralling, and cleaning was daily routine chores. There was always help from friends in the village who all learned to drive on our farm and get employment when it was the haying season. When it was time to play, we played hard. Cuts scrapes, bruises the odd broken bone but we had a blast always pushing ourselves to be more daring. I won't get into some of the INSANE THINGS WE DID but we all survived to fight another day.

[@skindianu]

You sound like you lived around the block from me, even though I grew up in town. My mom would make us turn off the TV and go outside (she usually didn't have to). We would take mom's playing cards and clothespins and pin the cards to our forks and pretend we were hell's angels. Playing kickball, baseball, etc, combined with helping dad work on the car or fixing the house, combined with one very important activity. Except for Saturday night, everyone sat at the dinner table, no TV, no radio, no newspaper. Just five people, talking to and listening to each other.

[@Kaleki935]

To be fair, we were too young to legislate these things away, too new to this world to know what possibilities were there just 10 years prior, and certainly too inexperienced in politics and neurology to actually make a case for the proper mental growth these things bring. We didn't erase these things and install our participation trophy generation. It was a certain other generation or three who made their psychedelic-fueled, sexual-driven, animalistic, "loving" political choices, who reverted to barbaric emotional domination of their mind rather than engage in normal dialogue requiring intellect. Now their kids are even WORSE, and actively collapsing the country as was always planned by the socialists in your childhood. Not paying attention caused this, and it'll be a damn miracle if we can undo it. Only then can our generations have the opportunity to even FANTASIZE about having the same freedoms you had. Until then, we get worse people doing worse things. Sodomy and public sexuality is prevalent, retraction of liberties in the name of "environmentalism", of which is the literal Trojan horse the Socialists of yesterday built, equity rather than equality of opportunity, we are the new Babylon and we're not going to last long. And it became this way because a certain generation decided to buy in to the post ww2 concepts that "nationalism and patriotism caused the wars, maaaaaan, that's why America stayed away for the longest by prioritizing themselves before any other nation!" Nonsensical emotional propaganda. But since that was the same time we reduced the privilege of voting to a universal right, dividing the household vote in the process and appealing to emotionally heightened women, it worked. And now we see the results of voting on "feelings" and what "sounds good" rather than using logic and evidence like a true political autist. IE; leave the big boy jobs to the big boys, not everyone is capable of making societal decisions.

[@devilsoffspring5519]

Where the hell did you get all the money for all that expensive stuff when you were so young? Your family must have been rich! I rarely did anything at all because I was always broke. Where the hell do people in their early teens get THAT kind of money? Sounds like you had a fun time growing up, my life was living hell.

[@skindianu]

@@devilsoffspring5519 probably his folks' stuff. When I was that age, I was under the impression that my dad's tools and stuff like that was mine, until one day I was made aware it wasn't.

[@devilsoffspring5519]

@@skindianu I was always made acutely aware of that when I was a kid, that nothing whatsoever was mine--not even birthday or Christmas presents, or even the clothes I wore or the cheap old guitar I loved playing--everything was my parents' property because my father paid for it and my mom was married to him. Everything, every little thing, belonged to them and I had nothing. I'm 46 now and still feel that way about things I actually WORKED for. GREAT way to raise your fucking kids. My parents were assholes...

[@michellemurawski3901]

I never had rough and tumble play. Now I see why I panic when my husband rough houses with our daughter. And why I need to try harder in that realm. Thank you!

[@jamese8508]

I highly recommend the docu-drama "Touching the Void" about the adventure of two British mountain climbers. It seems plain to me that the closeness of their friendship could only have evolved in proportion to the scale of their adventure. I wanted that closeness with my brother, so we started climbing. On a recent outing, I ran into a father scaling a fairly serious ridge with his 8-year old daughter. It was really amazing. She seemed so self-possessed.

[@Zekian]

That's interesting. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "self-possessed"?

[@michaeldodd3563]

The parkour vision is interesting. As a teen, I skated, rollerbladed, and did street BMX. Still to this day, I can’t walk past a rail or ledge where I don’t size it up. It’s been over 20 years since I did any of those aggressive sports. Now, as an attorney, I do something similar with language. I hear a statement or argument, and figure out how to use it to my client’s advantage. Good stuff JP!

[@tigana]

Thank you for uploading this. It made me reconsider my approach to teaching kids chess and run my class differently this afternoon. Sometimes the students have trouble focusing on the lessons and games. The full-day teachers at the school try to stamp out any kind of physical play they see, so I incorporated arm wrestling, plank competitions, and burpees in between games of speed chess (almost like chess boxing) to mimic the physical play they need. They loved it!!

[@sethchandler4170]

That's awesome. You are doing something wonderful.

[@tigana]

@@sethchandler4170 Thank you Seth

[@katrinashaffer8626]

Partner games could be good too, like wheel barrow races, etc.

[@laurawhy8813]

Wow!! This is awesome. I teach too and will try to use your ideas and incorporate others into my classroom!

[@Promotepeace]

Jordan and Rafe, thank you for such an important and immediately relevant exploration of the fundamental importance of physical play. I’m a father and I can tell you that kids absolutely crave rough housing and competitive play. Suppressing human nature in the pursuit of the impossible goal of, “zero childhood conflict”, is frankly moronic and contrary to human nature

[@fionasteinbrecht60]

I agree, sounds crazy that video games are agressive mind games with no physical outlet, too much unused energy. We played sports a lot and that was fun and healthy and beneficial

[@JW-bu3xt]

Zero childhood conflict creates adults who can not handle being challenged emotionally, who expect the workplace to dance around their needs and expectations. The world is in the shape it is in because we stopped weeding out the weak, lazy, and stupid, and those people think they deserve positions of power simply because they exist. Weak bullies now call the shots. I'm a woman, and I let my kids work things out themselves, as long as they aren't being cruel or causing real harm.

[@dacoolboysuperhuman7684]

All animals do it, why shouldn’t humans?

[@ChaoticNeutralMatt]

I've never heard of this guy, but I'm glad to have heard his words today. Hopefully we all learned something

[@Alaitha]

Same! The headline caught my eye and I felt an immediate need to listen, especially as a parent, but also as a former tomboy. Never heard of him, but the things he had to say are very important to know! Another thought provoking and enlightening conversation presented by JP :)

[@chrisalister2297]

Jordan Peterson has some excellent videos, most of them free. Very refreshing and enlightening subject matter.

[@vincentsmith8328]

Thank god for men of Courage and Conviction.... A Truly Inspiring Man!🙏

[@vincentsmith8328]

JBP...A voice of reason in a world of insanity and clown shows!

[@cindilouwho8681]

On the subject of dogs: I have 3 huskies who are a few years apart in age. We always rough played with them as pups and let them spar with each other and only intervened if things got too out of hand. As a result, these 3 massive dogs (they’re extra husky huskies) are so gentle with small dogs and children we have never had an issue or even feared an accident, unless it involves sitting on you because they believe they’re lap dogs 😂 Rough and tumble play is very important.

[@big_red_machine3547]

Unfortunately my teen nephews were raised by a strong feminist, with a feminine husband- both working as educators in Toronto. They were never disciplined and were not socialized properly because my sister always let them make their own choices- even as toddlers. My sister never let me teach the boys how to play, fight or be masculine because she frowned upon masculinity. Now, she’s changed course entirely. Yesterday a 16 yr old boy was stabbed to death in a random Toronto subway attack. She was terrified that my nephews didn’t know anything about self defence or situational awareness (I’m a trained government professional in this field) and organized a FaceTime call so I could try to teach the boys basic awareness to avoid dangerous situations. It was a start, but it’ll take lots of work and I’m saddened that she wouldn’t let me teach them any practical and meaningful skills when they were younger.

[@TecnamTwin]

So frustrating it takes the violent death of someone for them to wakeup and realize they're causing irreparable harm to their children. 😡

[@camissleepy8542]

I guess we should choose our partners more wisely before fully coming together. Leading the family into what's right despite what someone else might feel is wrong. (Want vs need) They need to learn to have their head on a swivel, to be cautious, to protect; even if the partner doesn't subscribe to that belief. A good start is the military, I would say Marine Corps but I left it because I was super stressed, great place to learn these skills and earn that warrior mindset.

[@kytkinpommiracing]

​@Justina Sadikova 😂

[@ari3lz3pp]

Being in the military helped me learn some of this. Being raised with very little play. Many school yard fights but not with friends. But basic training we had to do quote a bit of physical "play" for our training and I was surprised how fun it was.

[@MexxProtect]

What kind of basic training do you get to play in?

[@jalalalap-akalala]

​@@MexxProtect it's all play

[@mangr3n]

I had rough and tumble play with my dad as a child, and then it shut down when he went to graduate school in the military and then went to a duty station that had him gone for months at a time. I was discouraged from playing with my sisters in the same manner and so I had no one to play with in the way I wanted to. I chose to wrestle in high school, and it was deeply rewarding, and then joined the Marine Corps and felt it also to be deeply rewarding. This was long ago, learned so much about myself through those experiences. As an adult with my own children I instinctively played physically with my boys extensively, wrestling, basketball, catch, etc. Thank you for this video that explains how and why these instinctual responses aren't just "neat" attention grabbing responses, but are pointing to deep, deep embodied need for exploration and movement.

[@puttervids472]

And your mama wasn’t there to stop you 😅. Right ?

[@raraysaya]

I agree! Though I had play with my brothers, the difficulty level of Marine Corps bootcamp was just hard enough to make the "play" incredibly satisfying.

[@catrionanicthamhais]

Superb. I help teach kendo to a bunch of kids (as well as a handful of adults) in Chiang Mai, Thailand. What with all the lockdowns and school closures and online learning going on over the covidian years the vitally important aspect of rough and tumble play really came to the fore for me. Not even the meagre amount of physical activity in PE at school was available to these kids. I really think that their kendo practice really helped the kids at this time. Kendo is a Japanese martial art that uses a bamboo shinai to represent the Japanese sword. It is a very vigorous practice, where a kind of full on physicality is not only encouraged but demanded. There is also loud kiai (a kind of yelling, it could be said) happening at all times. At the moment we have slightly more girls than boys practicing but it is usually it is close to 50/50 in number. We practiced throughout the three years and never wore masks. Masking was obligatory throughout Thailand during that entire time and even now, the majority of people still wear them at all times outside of home. The wearing of masks are not obligatory. I think the long term value of this rough and vigorous kendo practice to the children was massive. A great conversation the two of you! Thanks so much.

[@jennymcgowin9140]

Wow! That was fascinating! I just realized that I participated in parkour just about every day of my childhood. My brother and I and about six boys in our neighborhood used to go to the “gully’s” (the woods that had deep trenches running through) everyday and jump off the cliffs, climb giant trees, and build “booby traps.” I was the only girl but it didn’t matter because I was such a tomboy. It was probably the most fun I’ve ever had in my life!!😁

[@trottingsparrow]

The fun doesn't have to stop. In fact as an adult it gets better. You have much more awareness, strategy and skill to play

[@charliechristian1097]

This is healing for me to listen to, I had a mentor in my life that harmed me sexually And it messed up my aggression response for a long time, I think that training martial arts and being physical with my job and my free time has allowed me to move past a lot of that in my adult Life, All of this is really helpful to hear as a new parent of a boy

[@encouraginglegacy]

All the best to you Mr Christian.

[@PeteTheL337]

I had the same thing with my x spouse. Whenever I would try to discipline my son she would interfere and say I was being too mean or harsh. It eventually got to me and I started doubting myself as a father. However, I had this feeling in my stomach that i was on the right path to begin with, with some minor tweaks in some situations, and after listening to many different opinions, including Dr. Peterson I felt vindicated and today, she funny enough has gotten a little more disciplinary with the kids because it's not all roses when you have to deal with them alone. She's a good woman with a good heart I just think she didn't understand the necessity of clear rules and boundaries at the time and the need for a firm hand in dealing with the kids shenanigans.

[@DailyCorvid]

Good for you man, God bless you and your family. It's tough to raise a family!

[@nm0408]

It depends on the kid. If it's an emotional kid they want empathy and understanding more than anything in this world. If it's a "logical/rational" kid, you can be a bit harsh but only if they keep making same mistakes.

[@amihere383]

I’d say you’d need to be a little harsher on the emotional kid. It’s okay to have emotions, it’s good and necessary, but you need to control them, not let them control you.

[@pitchforkpeasant6219]

@@nm0408 ❤your thinking 👍👍

[@zijianzhao8419]

I once read an essay (not in English) where the author expressed his gratitude of having the balance of a loving & protective mother and a strict & tough father. In one of the story, he recalled showing a drawing to his father, who had just came back from work, only to be told that the drawing was garbage. He cried and his mother stepped in and argued with his father over being too harsh with the kid. Looking back on it, he valued his father’s honest feedback just as much as his mother’s protection. I think the idea is that both the father and the mother have their distinctive and necessary roles to play in the family and they are not always required to agree on everything. We also shouldn’t take away agency from the children completely. All parents hurt their children one way or another, despite of their best intentions. It is up to the kids to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[@timoblake5689]

1:16:00 I had a realization of the fun play of dancing a Scottish Highland Reel. 1. You are on your toes the whole dance, 2. You are constantly weaving in and out of the group, 3. In the half toluch you have to interlock arms and spin in time but with a good "sparing" partner you can over rotate. 4. Highland Dancing is a combat dance, calisthenics, communal play, that I am so greatful I was apart of. Excuse me while I call my mom.

[@TomCoppola]

I knew it was only a matter of time before this conversation finally took place. This was a fantastic discussion and a beautiful articulation of the movement lifestyle. Parkour has so much to offer the mind, body, and soul. Well done, Rafe and Jordan.

[@RafeKelley]

Thanks Tom, really happy you got a lot out of it.

[@louishermann7676]

Tom and Rafe. Oh man so nice to see both your avatars on a different platform.

[@JenniferLively-no3ul]

Y’all are describing a lot of things that we do as Occupational therapist with our pediatric patients! And as a mom of 3 boys, we did all of these activities. I also had many arguments/ discussions with teachers on how important playground time is and if they would just embrace it, they would see better performing students in their classrooms.

[@jibster148]

Can't believe I've had these 2 worlds collide. Parkour and Dr Jordan Peterson

[@annarocha3254]

I am way more rough and rowdy with my boys than my husband is. I was a rough and tumble little girl and that kinda carried on into my parenting BUT he is far more patient when it comes to things like teaching them how to catch and throw (infinitely repetitive). I'm so thankful they have him as their father.

[@giselaa358]

My oldest son, now 7, is on the spectrum. And I just heard about six similar cases reported by friends, all boys. This interview gives me a lot of ideas about how to help my son and friends met with similar problems. Thank you so much for pulling this off!

[@alvareo92]

I heard from a child psychologist that a lot of kids who seem autistic, yet aren't autistic, routinely come into her office. She also had this theory, children aren't being socialised properly and are spending too much time with bright and colourful screens since too young an age.

[@mangr3n]

Please let people know what experiments you run, and how they work out.

[@shanelka8304]

the problem is with your parenting

[@lucybecker8]

I'm "full" right now but will come back to it. SO good. One of the best and most helpful videos I've seen in a LONG time. Takes me back to my childhood. For the most part my parents let me, a girl, do all sorts of things like climb trees, build a fort that was dug into the side of a ravine, walk on a 1 1/2 inch railing ( balance challenge), swing from a tire on 10 foot long rope ties to a branch of a large tree hanging over a ravine, and so on, with other kids, and play in the puddles in the rain, with no adult supervision. ( They could see where we were, out the back o r front window- semi rural). I don't remember ever, as a girl, engaging in rough and tumble one on one play, but we did a LOT of stuff you just don't see kids allowed to do today. Playing hide and seek on the road behind or even under parked cars, at dusk ( lived on a cul de sac so no regular traffic-- CAR! was our warning to each other) , skipping rope, double dutch, changing who went in and out of the ropes, fast, playing " jumps" with elastic bands joined together stretched between two girls, who raised the ends starting low to high, toes, ankles, knees waist,shoulder and then overhead. The third girl would jump, while turning, at each height level, and see how high she could get. Playing on the paved driveways. Being encouraged to walk on the gravel driveways to 'strengthen your feet'.

[@vaughanellis7866]

I'm now 60, but I did Parkour/Free Running in the late 70's early 80's before it became what it is now, back then it didn't even have a name, but it was one of those things that helped me burn off energy and of course gain a few bruises, being the elder brother of four sisters I needed that outlet so I could be calm in dealing with them.

[@streetuminati5161]

100% agree I am running parkour company where I live and can honestly say that it makes a difference to kids 🙌

[@encouraginglegacy]

Keep it up lad!

[@encouraginglegacy]

@@nonagonguy6121 Seek a doctor IRL. I read your other comments.

[@scoobtoober2975]

At the beginning of this i was saying i don't need this. That was a clue. I do. This is already a great therapy session of what i lack in and need to do for my self and my kids. Luckly my wife has stuck with me for 20 years and was well play adapted growing up. Thank you Jordan for highlighting great people that have things to offer to society

[@stevenbryan7586]

Hugely beneficial discussion for me personally as I am a 50 year old father to a now 6 year old son. There's both some affirmation for the things I'm doing right (Jiu-Jitsu), and some challenges for me to encourage integration.

[@khanm.a]

Parkour and Freerunning coach from Kenya, I'd never thought Jordan Peterson and Parkour would ever be in the same sentence!

[@6T7STINGRAY]

Amazing, Rafe and Jordan! Thank you for the time boys! When Rafe mentioned Parkour I had a flashback to my 10 year old son going out of his way, this past weekend, to scale a cement wall while my wife and I easily flanked! It looked like a priority for him... He does Mixed Martial Arts, and the experience for him is wonderful. Now a proper Parkour blast is GO! Thanks again men!

[@DylanBakerparkour]

Rafe, so proud of you man. What a beautiful culmination of all the work you have put into your teaching, research and movement practices. I’ve been following Jordan’s work for many years, so it was music to my ears to hear you weave your perspective of parkour and movement practices into his teachings and vise versa. Such a wonderful conversation to listen to. This felt therapeutic on multiple levels. My soul feels nourished. Your message and more importantly, your embodied practices are sorely needed in today’s world. I’ll definitely come back to this conversation for its many layers of wisdom ❤

[@RafeKelley]

Dylan makes me happy this landed for you. Miss ya man, you still owe me a visit for tree climbing and cliff diving.

[@AaronMartinProfessional]

Couldn't agree more. 😌I felt deeply appreciative seeing the episode announced and then hear it unfold. Thank you for your work Rafe! I am certainly biased, but this has been amongst the most interesting and relatable conversations with Jordan I've heard these past few years - and I'm not saying that lightly, when the stage is filled with greats like Iain McGilcrist, Sam Harris, Andrew Huberman, Roger Penrose and John Vervaeke 👏👏

[@benl8962]

You described my thoughts beter than i ever could. I strongly agree with this

[@holdenhagerman4834]

Sad to see someone I've respected for so long supporting someone so trash. Don't meet your heroes, I guess...

[@Rulian_Sama]

One of the top most important video on the internet period. Everyone should have a chance to even have a bit of this synthesized into their knowledge kit... Truelly beautifull work and I'm personnaly glad that I discovered Mr.Kelly and will probably dive deeper into his work if I can find any. Thanks a bunch

[@tommckellen4289]

Really, these overly soft eras could be seen as cyclical (in societies like the Western one which forgot their ancient roots of masculine/feminine, Aristotolianism, yin/yang etc (to also cite other similar philosophical systems) therefore are overly 'pendulous' in nature. For example, I lived in the East for a time and because their ancient philosophy can't be erased (although the Marxists tried) as it is so embedded, there is a lot of' masculinity' in the East (this is merely a fact as they score highly on Hofstedes masculinity index, highly in masculine skills such as mathematics, have low aversion to (calculated) risk etc etc). The controversial Indian guru, Osho, often said that real humans are somewhat 'dangerous' as they live from their insides, and those insides don't always toe the line, in an Orwellian society or otherwise. To expound this point, my school years were spent in a relatively 'masculine' era, in the UK. My friends were that group which were both 'jocks' and 'geeks', to use an American term, which means we were getting in rough and tumble and trouble, yet many of us were also primed for Ivy league or similar style of education, again to use an American term. This made those school punishments somewhat lighter and made it harder to deny you can't just be a complete straight lace to be creatively smart. It was also a good time to be around. Many of these 'masculine era' friends, think woke is a load of tosh. There are infinite things we could talk about regarding how to improve society but having 2000 genders is very far down on that list. After school I spent a lot of time in Asia so it was quite seamless transition, going from one masculine situation to another. Its only when I came back from Asia, to something closer to the current Western society that I was thinking 'WTF has happened'? Really the whole energy has been sucked out of Western society because masculinity or 'Yang energy' to use a similar, metaphysical term, has a real heartbeat and a pulse to it. When a society has it there is a real feeling of direction and movement which you can't deny. Overall, these are very sad times indeed but those who are trying to restore the situation must be open to all sorts of people who have knowledge and insight regarding how to sort things out.

[@tommckellen4289]

A quick aside. When interpreting Hoftedes indexes it's not all always about good vs bad. For example Chinese long termism and low impulsivity can be as much of a problem as American short termism and high impulsivity. This is what makes overarching psychological surveys, and their connections to economics, for example, as well as how to get along as nations, salient and interesting. Cultures don't need to be cookie cutter versions of each other, just as with people, to get along, should be a further, relevant point.

[@tommckellen4289]

A final point I'll make. Its worth noting that those who manipulate society absolutely know how to think in the more 'Eastern' way, although there are parallel thinking styles in all cultures. This is because the 'Illuminated ones' are an esoteric cult as much as they are socio economic manipulators. Therefore, they absolutely know that an excess of yin energy will result in...well, I'll paraphrase Aristotle; 'Masculine republics bacome feminine democracies, feminine democracies become tyrannies'. This, might not even be only about gender, although it is certainly one aspect. The most masculine politician in the UK may have been Margaret Thatcher and if you see the bums on seats in Parliament when she spoke, you'd be hard pressed not to put her near the number one spot, at least. Of course, a masculine woman like this, must try to find some feminine qualities within her, which I believe it is likely she did do.

[@trottingsparrow]

Rafe has a KZbin page, podcast, and regularly hosts retreats

[@skindianu]

​@@tommckellen4289 times are crazy, aren't they? The point you made about listening and keeping yourself open is very important, because an ignorant man isn't of much use.

[@charleskilo4383]

56:45 This is fascinating to hear the word 'play' associated with dance and combat. I teach dance and have done martial arts for years and I came to the conclusion that both are useful because they primarily teach a person how to move and use their body relative to another person, one cooperatively and one competitively but I never thought to simply refer to that as playing.

[@dclay3578]

When I saw parkour in the title, my brain error 404’d for a sec

[@Yleski]

Why?

[@Sillydilly321]

I read it 3 times 😂

[@iwannaplanche1621]

yeah totally, not that it couldn't happen just didn't expect that

[@rjim1]

Ditto, I thought I was finally having a famed but highly illusive acid flashback!

[@DC-gh6dy]

My mind immediately went to The Office and I got confused.

[@chrisjadeflorence6371]

Such a helpful insight thank you! And just in time for my family too. Only today I was having a conversation with my son about gym because I can see he’s got energy to burn but I wasn’t giving any thought to the need for this type of play which I loved growing up. I think because it was parented with shame in my childhood which is a sign of other issues at work. Not for my kids. Ready, steady, go!

[@ZeCroiSSanT950]

My dad wrestled with my brother and I from I want to say when I was 4 to 8 or 9. I really cherish those memories and am very grateful for my dad.

[@drakenfly56]

Parkour !? One day I was about 8, I was at the french beach with my grandpa for a walk. We were walking along the beach rocks and I asked him if he could let me run on them for about 100 meters and he pause, thinked about it, then told me to be careful and watched me have the best fun of my life, jumping rock to rock at high speed. One of my best memories as an undiagnosed tdah kid. Will stay in my heart for the rest of my life.

[@dungeondeezdragons4242]

When i clicked on this video, i did not expect to need to stop tears with no ability to stop smiling. Thank you for this conversation

[@mikes121]

We learned to fight from a retired Marine. We all studied various martial arts and did what amounted to MMA fights in our yards. This was in the '70s and '80s before anyone had ever heard of MMA. We kicked the snot out of each other.

[@SailingProjectAtticus....]

*Thanks for watching send a direct message right away on the above number for more enlightenment:••*

[@veganinvienna]

I loved this conversation for so many reasons. Two aspects of it I felt moved to comment on here: Firstly, there was a lot of reference to the importance of play in other mammals' psychological and social development. As someone who takes the conscious experience of other animals seriously and is in the comfortable position of being able to act on this in an ethically consistent way in as far as possible, I'm always relieved to hear Jordan Peterson make reference to the evolutionary continuity we have with other animals. What especially struck me here however was the contrast between Rafe and Jordan's attitude towards animals at 2:07:48 (in the longer Spotify version) where Jordan talks about stupid dogs doing inappropriate things like peeing themselves rather than recognise and respond to a invitation to play. Rafe interjects and says 'a poorly socialised dog' and then 'We are a society of poorly socialised dogs'. Thank you Rafe. Such a response to an invitation to play can only be either stupidity in dogs and people or it is a sign of poor socialisation in dogs and people. As both men have already established numerous times in the discussion that the mental processes are fundamentally the same in dogs and humans, I have to assume that this is some kind of blind spot for Jordan. Contrasted with such profound empathy for the human condition I often find this disdain for other mammals pretty shocking. The other point I wanted to make was at 1:04:26 (in this KZbin version) Rafe talks about a variety of different ways of making sure people engaging in rough play don't have unfair disadvantages or disadvantages. He mentions letting his younger daughter start a running race before his older son and Jordan describes this as 'adopting a set of limitations until you are evenly matched'. This reminded me of the political discussion around equality versus equity. Equity here is limiting the son and giving the daughter what she needs to be evenly matched. I thought 'Yikes' as I am very skeptical about equity replacing the traditional left wing idea of equality. But then I remembered hearing somewhere recently someone saying the their home life with their immediate family operates along communist lines but that doesn't mean it's appropriate for the whole of society. This makes sense to me. When we are young and developing, those responsible for our care bend reality to a certain extent so we are not overwhelmed by our incompetencies. In this way, this equitable treatment is a necessary follow on from the illusion of omnipotence ideally provided by an infant's primary care giver. They both serve to ready us for reality but neither is desirable for a society unless that is we don't want to operate in reality and would rather remain infants.

[@SzaboDTamas-ki4wu]

The way he describes parkour is phenomenal! Almost made me tear up.

[@marcosjordan6611]

33:10-As a PE teacher and an ex-rugby player and father of two boys and two girls I can only agree with your statements. I see my girls playing rugby and perceive how this energetic rough game teach them how to understand their physicallity and sexuality. Thank you both for proving my parenting right.

[@robmorris87]

Watching the whole of this and the couple of sentences in another of Jordans recent videos explaining the two seperate reward centres has helped me understand my self and my relationship with my own son more than anything else in my whole life.

[@gaildepew4018]

Wow 20 minutes in and I’m already realizing what my 7 year old son is missing and desperately needing 😭. His dad (my husband) passed away when he was 1 and half. He has been getting written up at school nearly every week 😢 So my dad does his best to rough house but he’s in his 60s. I did meet someone last year and we are to be married this summer! And he rough houses with him, and I see how much my son loves it, but as a women I don’t like it lol. So ya I gotta not say anything and just let them play…

[@hycoperosity5843]

I always rough housed w/ my Son, while his Dad, my Husband ran after us telling us to calm down lol. Water fights were the best he locked himself in the bathroom once, I got a metal hanger to unlock it, and when I got it open he threw a big cup of water right in my face hahaha then we ended up on the floor wrestling, everything was wet my husband was yelling that we were getting everything wet hahaha great fun!

[@DadsCigaretteRun]

I’m so sorry, I wish you the best

[@recoveringsoul755]

Moms need to roughhouse too!! Learn physical limitations, arm wrestle, teach your own limitations and others. Be careful tickling though. If you don't let up with tickling you could really hurt someone. My sister tickled me so badly without a break I could barely breathe.

[@amyturner6275]

You should join them lol

[@the2ndcoming135]

💐

[@AaronMartinProfessional]

Wow, this looks like one of the most appreciative comment sections on the internet. It's clear that Rafe and Jordan are playing on the edge of our times here! Love seeing this - for more movement, rough and tumble play and parkour in the playgrounds, homes and schools! 🙌🙌

[@ezergilechimekazikura6855]

Jumping and climbing over obstacles in open was one of the greatest bonding expiriences I've had through childhood and adolescence with my friends at the time, and this conversation brought up a point that maybe I should heed the calling again to re-discover something that was essential (used the wrong word before, I think) to my development long years past. Thank you for the inspiration and a fruitfull discussion.

[@DavetheChimp]

I've been riding skateboards for the last 37 years, and I'm glad I discovered this pursuit at the age of 12 because it's kept me in my physical body and kept me playing. I started climbing trees for the first time in my life last year. I was a pretty shy, not very sporty kid. Sometimes I think skateboarding literally saved my life. Now I have a son and, though he isn't in to skateboarding, I do try to push him physically, throw him in the occasional cold river, play balance and catch games, and roughhouse. I've been sure to make sure that when he wants to fight I fight just hard enough for him to understand that fighting hurts, and is best avoided. My sons friends always seem to want to fight me, possibly because I'm short, but also possibly because they know I will fight them pretty hard, and they want to be tested while knowing they are safe. Every school should have someone like Rafe. And someone like Jordan for that matter!

[@GGCandle]

As someone who was not accustomed to much rough and tumble play growing up- voluntarily seeking out filling in that void with jiu jitsu as an adult has been quite enlightening. I've been able to gain a whole new level of insight on breathing, sensitivities, empathy, play, developing the shadow as well as interacting with being on the ground in uncomfortable situations- in essence, constructing a masculine centered essence. I immediately think about how beneficial it would have been to rough house to an extent as a child growing up- but all you can do as an adult is teach yourself as if you were your own child and when you have your children- to cultivate those traits with opportunities that you may not have been exposed to.

[@edauvaa1730]

This rough & tumble aspect of growing up is very important in building community life. As people become more city bound these days, the loss of the communal life that's fostered in villages and in smaller townships on one hand, while growth of indifference that you experience in cities, these kinds of movements to reconnect people at the basic levels become more necessary. Fear and apprehension tends to follow communal isolation in big cities.

[@jaredhammonds8255]

This was life changing. Thank you. My wife is asking for one about positive femininity.

[@wolfsmaid6815]

I think your wife might enjoy the channel "Mrs Midwest" here on youtube. Her channel revolves around traditional femininity in a positive way.

[@tanyamalan6234]

Since listening to Jordan Peterson for a while now, I have sat back and observed children in and at play, and different social settings. It's mind blowing to observe the nuances of instinctual behaviour. How children sum each other up and initiate interaction without adults hovering over them. In group settings I have observed that children whom I thought to be timid and shy in nature as they appeared with their parents, are very much drawn out of their shells by other children who exhibit free abandonment of play. Another observation was that total dominance by one individual does not last within the group, as each child plays to their strengths, be it socially or physically. The initial dynamic and temperament of the group changes when they splinter off to form smaller circles of "friends" within that group. Fascinating to say the least!

[@spinnetti]

I'm 58. I still do "rough and tumble play" lol. My dad pulled away from me as a kid too and ran off in my early teens, but not sure why to this day. I think this is essential for all animals. When we have rescued cats, the ones that never had another cat to learn how to play properly are too aggressive simply because they don't know how they are impacting others, but with another kitten, they very quickly self-regulate. Its amazing with both cats and dogs how great they are with little kids and very careful not to hurt them (probably true of most animals brought up in proximity) - you can see this in many youtube videos where dogs are very careful not to hurt their cat housemates when they play.

[@marywoolley-nb7ct]

I am a retired primary school teacher in the UK. I have always felt sorry for the children who have more physical energy because the school system constantly wants children to sit down , be quiet and listen. It’s so unnatural for many children.

[@MariaPerez-uv8mm]

I’m in the same situation? How do you fight the system?

[@michaelfern4079]

@@MariaPerez-uv8mm Get them up at 6am for a workout, get it out their system then they’ll be happy to sit for an hour or two. 🤷‍♂️

[@MichaelDavis-cy4ok]

I think this is why the apprenticeship system worked for centuries. Take young boys, put them in a shop where they have a responsibility and are taught to do a physical (as well as mental) set of tasks at the edge of their abilities, and give them constant feedback with discipline and praise. There's a reason this is still done in the military.

[@buu.888]

My husband has nearly finished building our ultimate kids backyard. We recently did a huge renovation to remove structures in our backyard, place more grass and installing a very large trampoline and playground/cubby house with slides and swings. We plan to add a huge chalk board too and just allow them space and freedom to play. Our first is 17 months, second due weeks from now and we just want them to have healthy outlets to play and flourish the way they should.

[@baddreams3850]

I played games since I was a kid and didn't realize or ever think of it as an addiction, as someone who has actual addictions, but at some point it stopped being fulfilling. Until I used game time as a personal reward, the bigger the goal, the longer I can play. It became fulfilling again! I am also now in a talented team of indie game developers. The ultimate fulfillment from video games for me now, is to make games for others and making sure it comes from a place of passion and art. I was the addict, now I make the drugs, some may conclude, but I am trying to use game forum to bring some of dr. Peterson's teachings, whether it be Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, but especially Dr. Jung.

[@K-j2024]

Daycare and modern schools produce emotionally stunted people. Agree. Jordan your info about r&t play is why I've trusted you since 2016. My Dad did r&t play me(70s) and I(Mom) did with my boys and their friends(2000s). Other Moms were shocked or saw it as beneath them. Taught my boys alot about boundries, how to negotiate, regulate themselves, stand up for themselves, how to trust themselves and be discerning of others. And btw it's fun, loving, and joyful. Highly recommend parents learn how.

[@nata.galvez.m]

I loooooooved loved loved so much this interview!! I grew up in a family full of women and now have two little boys, 4yo and 8mo and it’s been so enlightening to listen to you guys talk about this. I’ve always had the intuition that they need the rough play, but at the same time this natural drive to tell my son to stop being so rough… very important conversation, and very enlightening. Thank you so much ❤

[@underrideproductions]

Me and my son ride bmx hes been doing it since he was 4yrs old and hes 11yrs old now. This is the year hes really started to jump. Watching him grow and over come fears in the sport of bmx is amazing and so rewarding.

[@judahbarnum7009]

These lessons are so needed beyond belief in our culture. Thank you Jordan and Rafe for mapping out these areas of life, and showing us the missing pieces of developmental issues of the fundamental parts of what it means to be Human.

[@nozter123]

This was such an inspiring conversation. I played some of these games with my kids and it bought about an immediate and joyful connection with them. Thank you!

[@kristinrosehealy6192]

So helpful. I had a better evening with my three young boys after listening to this.

[@IsaacCords]

I've never felt so validated by a video in my entire life. As a 29 year old man who had rough play as a youngster i feel as though this has been torn away from me and almost condemned by those closest around me. This episode has encouraged me to re-introduce "play" back into my life little bit by little bit. It's so fundamental and you see it all the time in nature. I find it quite hilarious and ironic the further we seem to "progress" as a species the further we seem to drift from those fundamentals such as rough and tumble play and environmental traversal aka parkour. Thanks for making this apparent Mr. Peterson and Mr. Kelley

[@tomasr64]

I grew up on a ranch with cattle until age 12 as an only child, then a single kid, no father . I stared running cross country as a high school freshman, 1979. I also did road cycling, up to a cat 3 race level. No stick and ball team sports for me. Then rockclimbing, backpacking,. I didn't do any video games. Even now at 58 I work outside in the woods making the place better. But I attribute it to leaning into the pain of running way back when. Despite my depression, I've done pretty well with these habits.

[@Zulu4impi]

Feel so fortunate to having found such a brilliant person whose insights and forthrightness are essential to understanding the truth about the Human Condition.

[@the2ndcoming135]

👉🏽😎

[@tommckellen4289]

Really, these overly soft eras could be seen as cyclical (in societies like the Western one which forgot their ancient roots of masculine/feminine, Aristotolianism, yin/yang etc (to also cite other similar philosophical systems) therefore are overly 'pendulous' in nature. For example, I lived in the East for a time and because their ancient philosophy can't be erased (although the Marxists tried) as it is so embedded, there is a lot of' masculinity' in the East (this is merely a fact as they score highly on Hofstedes masculinity index, highly in masculine skills such as mathematics, have low aversion to (calculated) risk etc etc). The controversial Indian guru, Osho, often said that real humans are somewhat 'dangerous' as they live from their insides, and those insides don't always toe the line, in an Orwellian society or otherwise. To expound this point, my school years were spent in a relatively 'masculine' era, in the UK. My friends were that group which were both 'jocks' and 'geeks', to use an American term, which means we were getting in rough and tumble and trouble, yet many of us were also primed for Ivy league or similar style of education, again to use an American term. This made those school punishments somewhat lighter and made it harder to deny you can't just be a complete straight lace to be creatively smart. It was also a good time to be around. Many of these 'masculine era' friends, think woke is a load of tosh. There are infinite things we could talk about regarding how to improve society but having 2000 genders is very far down on that list. After school I spent a lot of time in Asia so it was quite seamless transition, going from one masculine situation to another. Its only when I came back from Asia, to something closer to the current Western society that I was thinking 'WTF has happened'? Really the whole energy has been sucked out of Western society because masculinity or 'Yang energy' to use a similar, metaphysical term, has a real heartbeat and a pulse to it. When a society has it there is a real feeling of direction and movement which you can't deny. Overall, these are very sad times indeed but those who are trying to restore the situation must be open to all sorts of people who have knowledge and insight regarding how to sort things out.

[@rebeccajohnson3402]

Girls really like rough and tumble play too. I started dating at 15 a boy who was 17. We wrestled all the time, laughing our heads off. He basically kept me from doing anything painful for him then just pinned me down when he got tired of it. It was exhilarating. I had three brothers, one older and two younger, so maybe that had something to do with it. I also had three sisters and I don’t remember wrestling with them.

[@karinacolonLA]

I used to wrestle my little sister. My brother and I tried to kill each other...lol. My older sister was pretty violent. Parents wouldn't say anything...unless the boy was hurt. Lol. Very machismo household. Turned him soft.

[@rebeccajohnson3402]

@@karinacolonLA My brothers tried to kill each other too. And my older sister tried to kill my older brother fairly frequently. Lol

[@k.t.1641]

“Some girls” lol. Some like my daughter are very delicate and don’t like it at all 😂.

[@rebeccajohnson3402]

@@k.t.1641 True!

[@devinvanleeuwen1671]

I used to wrestle a lot as well. I had 6 sisters and one brother and I remember starting a wrestling club with my five younger siblings and we loved it, all girls, and of course my little brother loved it as well. It was even better on the trampoline. I got chucked off the trampoline loads of times and got lots of scrapes, bumps and trampoline burns. Did the same thing with my cousins lol. I’m 18 and one of the lucky ones of my generation, my mum made us go outside and play and we wud only come back for bathroom breaks and food. Sometimes we wud make our own food by eating flowers and clovers lol 😂 It was pretty awesome, we had a big property with forests to explore and a massive backyard and lived next to a farmer so it was a great childhood exploring and playing outside. I feel for the children who are not allowed to experience that though. Children really need rough and tumble play.

[@wanawitch]

Almost all my school and adult years I was avoiding all physical challenges. I see now, simply by listening to you, how much I missed! Thanks once again.

[@casebradford]

POWERFUL PODCAST 🌞 Awesome Episode

[@corbenya]

What a brilliant segment. This should be introduced into all elementary education and child care. I will share and I hope other's do as well!

[@lydiasinclair1126]

Love this segment. My son wanted so bad for a father to play with him. Or friends that would play with him in a wrestling or rough and tumble way. Because I had separated from his father I had really hope I found the one that would step in. But I was wrong. So I put him into Judo and that changed his whole world. He finally got some one on one play with a man that took on those boys that needed the play with discipline. It was exactly how what he needed.

[@wyrd_wyrm]

Extremely important conversation. Share widely.

[@alcek01]

My first week in high school(14 yo) , one of my new classmates came to me and started a fight. We didn't know each other and I guess we didn't like each other at a first glance. Now, I'm 48 and he has been my best friend ever since and I'm his son's godfather.

[@danielshmelevich1968]

An enlightening and somehow reassuring conversation. Thank you professor Peterson.

[@MemeMan42069]

Dr. Peterson has directly made me both a better person but a better future father. Not just through this particular video but through several others. I got lucky and overall had very good parents and I want to be even better than they were and Dr. Peterson has basically given me an expert made cheat sheet.

[@ericbursey6950]

Gentlemen, your interactive conversation is a brilliant example of rough and tumble competative/cooperative wrestling (words/ideas/values/logos) !! Thank you thank you.

[@ajjames8691]

Amazing discussion - I learned so much. I have practiced and taught parkour for 25 years as a and I opened a parkour school during the pandemic and it went very well especially when gyms were closed. It grew and grew until three months ago when I experienced my first decline, my Easter camp was a big flop, I took a hit in income and pride. I took it quite personally and seriously considered moving on to something else. I then stopped even trying to do marketing and coasted on whatever momentum had already been generated. Then something changed overnight, I was getting a steady stream of new students which hasn’t stopped. I came across this podcast just today and see it came out precisely when I started to experience an influx of new students. I’m not discounting the summer weather as a factor but even so I believe this podcast did such a great job of explaining the value of what I do that it saved my business in some part and my purpose in life. On behalf of all the folks that my staff and I will help to move artfully in the future, thank you 🙏

[@RafeKelley]

I am not sure it could have had that much of any impact but if so I am really happy to have helped.

[@Muchjoy..]

Thank you 🇨🇦 🙏 I can't relate to this man so much, so super smart. Thank you for sharing your story 💜

[@curlyexperience]

When I was a child, I exhibited very masculine traits, and I still do to this day. I used to play with the boys until they started outcompeting me, resulting in injuries. As a result, I had to find a new social circle. I didn't quite fit in with the girls since I was too high-energy and didn't share their interests. However, becoming a mother changed my life for the better, giving me a sense of purpose. This newfound sense of purpose allowed me to identify my interests. I often wonder how many other girls have had similar experiences.

[@heinzbraunschweig9130]

Hallo Nicole, I am Rena and I understand very Well what you experienced. As a kid I was with my das, who also thought me to speak. Untill today, I am 67 , I cannot Talk Like "girls" and that Made IT Kind of hard to find female Friends. As a mother of two sons I got along Well. - And I always enjoyed being a Woman. Go on jolly😊😊

[@CC-xn5xi]

There's a wide range of femininity. Not all girls want to play with Barbies and talk about boys!

[@MariaPerez-uv8mm]

Wonderful comment :-)

[@Orson2u]

Check out the new interview (online here, “New Discourses” series) with novelist Lionel Shriver. At 15, as a confirmed Tom boy, she rejected her given traditional female names, and legally adopted a male one. Of course, nineteenth century writers did this, then, too. But Shriver has a powerful insider-Outsider perspective, also, as an American long living in Britain! Fascinating. Recommended.

[@JW-bu3xt]

Same here. I would play tackle football with the boys until we all hit 13. I felt so rejected when they didn't want to play with me anymore. Now I know a 13 year old boy is as strong as a full grown woman. (Plus we were hitting puberty.) I joined a roller derby team at age 25 and was a star player. My now husband once heard a couple of men in the audience call me a "beast." It wasn't a compliment. But I got more than a couple MVP awards so I know it was more than me being a bigger girl. I WAS a beast. And I loved it. I wonder if I would be as aggressive if I didn't have anger issues from childhood trauma, but I know the physicality helped me mentally regardless. I've got iron control on my temper so derby was a God-send to vent frustration.

[@Metaphoria_Music]

So much of my childhood and current life makes more sense now from what I've learned from this talk! I'm so grateful for you both Jordan and Rafe, two perfect role models you are. Thanks to the both of you for this enlightening conversation

[@daynelawless]

One of the best podcasts yet! I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this while relating everything to my own past life experience. Thank you to both experts here in a fascinating and important topic that is so vital in human development, yet scarcely discussed.

[@ExOskeletal1988]

Fascinating recreational activity by Rafe Kelley. Evolve, Move, Play is important to take note.

[@skindianu]

I'm glad to have been able to catch this particular podcast. It seems there's still hope for Western society, and hopefully everyone learns from all of our mistakes and uses the knowledge gained to make a profoundly, better Western society.

[@Flandelacasa]

I would binge watch Jordan Peterson doing Parkour. I would make popcorn and everything.

[@ivanprokounin4029]

Pushing each other off the curb! That's the game i intuitively came up with my friends! All the teens wanted to play - it has such a universal appeal!

[@petersheville9339]

Really interesting. Something I do all the time with my kids. My son really gets into it. My daughter loves it but not as much. Another interesting thing I was helping my wife with her child care course until focused in early development. I actually said to her it seems very feminised with a major focus on talking about things with the child. I said boys don’t respond to too much talking and need physical interaction