Which Spoke Pattern Should I Choose? | Between Two Wheels Episode #2

[@johnmoug5149]

A great distraction during a long COVID lockdown (in Australia) was building wheels for my old hardtail MTB. All done by following Park Tools videos. Apologies for my belated but most grateful thanks.

[@parktool]

A Covid Distraction? Then you must have seen the best....55 minutes at the height kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppLEiIJmZt9sfrcsi=WVGhLtlsooFdd9YW

[@johnsheetz6639]

Working on bikes can be pretty soothing. Unless it's something you haven't done before. Lol on the plus side there's nothing you can do to a bike you can't try again if you don't get it right the first time. Cross threading notwithstanding.

[@wheelfree]

It's rare for me to watch a 20min YT video at one go. This is one of them.

[@heightencraft]

Really enjoyed the comprehensive breakdown of wheel lacing in this video. Some nuggets of wisdom here. Thanks gents!

[@johnandrus3901]

Both my touring bike and my tandem, have wheels built by my local shop owner, who has since retired, but keeps busy at a another shop a couple of days a week. He's one of the best, anywhere. The touring bike has a 36 spoke front, small flange wheel and a 40 spoke rear. The tandem has a 40 spoke high flange front and a 48 spoke rear. Both have cassette hubs on the rear. In the many years that I've ridden on these wheels, I've never had a broken spoke. I've never paid attention to the cross-pattern, but they are super durable and have taken quite a bit of abuse, over the years. An excellent video, as always.

[@SerPurple51]

Make sure you stay on top of truing them and keep them in good shape! Those are one of a kind!

[@johnandrus3901]

@@SerPurple51 I always keep an eye on them and they've never come out-of-true. I ride almost every day and both bikes have rim brakes, so I can tell if something is out-of-whack. The touring wheels were built in the mid-2000's and the tandem's were built in 2012. He just rebuilt a friend of mine's wheels and did his usual superb job.

[@spektrumB]

48 spoke wheel and hub are quite uncommon these days. Even a 40 spoke wheel is getting harder to find. If the hub, wheel, spokes are high quality. And the wheel builder knows his craft. A 36 spoke wheel/hub should be fine for most riders and situations.

[@johnandrus3901]

@@spektrumB My touring bike is a 1981 Miyata 1000 and came with the 36 and 40 spoke wheels. When I had the bike upgraded in the early-mid 2000's, the rear freewheel hub was replaced with a 40 spoke tandem rear cassette hub and both wheels were rebuilt. We went with 105 SIS and crank, with a Shimano STX RC rear derailleur. This system has been flawless for me, since then. The tandem received the same treatment around 2012. The old 105 is bullet proof, for sure.

[@walterdockins8475]

Great video! I haven't dipped into wheel lacing since I worked in a shop back in the 80's-90's. What a great refresher!

[@HUKIT.]

I work on everything on my mtb bikes but I’ve never built a wheel. As always another great video lads!

[@jamesporter5630]

I’m building a 4 cross for a 40 hole rear wheel on a 1962 Raleigh. 11 month back order on the rim to match the stock hub, but it has finally arrived. Wish me luck. Thanks for another helpful video.

[@pinchflat]

My favorite to build is 3x with a twist at the 3rd cross. Just fun. My race wheels I build are just standard 3x. I also like the "crowd foot" a 2x with a radial up the center. Light and unique.

[@krollpeter]

Interesting video, Park Tool videos are consistent quality since 13 years! Lacing a wheel is not as easy as it seems, yet done by a pro it looks so easy. With no practice it takes ages getting it right. This is one of the few things I am not trying to do anymore myself.

[@Iowahurler82]

Currently waiting for my spokes for my first build. 24/28 hole 2 cross. Using black and silver stainless spokes. All leading black, all trailing silver. Eventually, I plan on rebuilding my single speed bikes wheels as a snowflake.

[@Iowahurler82]

@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 funny thing is, that's pretty close to why I am doing it. Just for the looks and like to stay on the odd side of things. I had my 04 Cannondale R500 sprayed with Cerakote, including the 20 year old carbon fork (oven cure). Put a set of Rolf Prima Vigors (16 and 20 hole paired spokes) and 2x11 R7000 105. I dumped close to $4000 into a 20+ year old $500 bike. I am not worried about doing a snow flake pattern on a $200 single speed with a flip flop hub.

[@aznwierdone]

I've seen snowflake and crows foot. Super neat. My favorite personal one is 2:1 lacing patterns for mismatched hub and rim, though I'm no Clyde and those wheels aren't heavy duty.

[@peterwillson1355]

Best keep things practical and simple. Cross 3, 36 or 32 hole.

[@josfliers]

Fully agree

[@WalterReed-qd5xz]

When building a wheel set from scratch, how do you know whether a 3 or 4 cross will cause bending at the threads of the spoke/nipple? Knowing you have to take a cross pattern into account when calculating spoke length, it's a bit too late by the time you have spokes in hand and start building. Is there any way to figure this out ahead of time what is the best cross pattern for your rim / hub combo to prevent the bend at the threads?

[@LaurentiusTriarius]

My favorite looking wheels are 28 spokes straight pull with 2 cross on sweet DT's. Everything else look busy! I still run 32 spokes J bend 3 cross sapim steel spoke on fat rims for the DH bike 😂

[@philippejoseph8604]

At 4:17 the rear wheel with radial on one side and 2 cross on the other side is wrong. It should be 2 cross on the transmission side ( right ) were the force is applied trough the spokes when pedaling and can be radial on the other side ( left ). That also means that you don't do a radial wheel with disks brakes.

[@jamesbutler606]

did you not listen? Braking applies roughly 5x the force of accelleration - radial is fine for power, but crossed is needed for braking - unless you hate your hub shell (if you have Mavic like this example i would say you do hate it!)

[@philippejoseph8604]

@@jamesbutler606 OK you are the boss of wheels, I admit this but I have always seen on recent bikes rear wheels with radial on the left and cross by 2 or 3 on the right ( cassette ). An other point, what I saw was maybe only on wheels with rim brakes and not disks brakes, my bad.

[@jamesbutler606]

Building them as part of my day job does help with this!

[@buzzkill4623]

excellent video

[@paisfr]

Hello bonjour , Calvin & Friends is masters in the field 😄 Thank you

[@danalbert5785]

Science of wheel building has been debated for 100 years. Fifty years ago, had a tandem that broke spokes on the rear wheel. I removed freewheel and drilled 9 holes in hub and rim and added 9 spokes only on freewheel side. Problem solved. What is the best kind of tandem? Someone else tandem!

[@not-a-raccoon]

I'm convinced tandem riders wear each other's underwear

[@pauljames1978]

It’s allways bin 3 cross for me 🚲💨

[@ianthedondaws7559]

Love these videos,so informative 👍how about a video on how to do snowflake pattern or flower pattern and the advantages or disadvantages of each 🙏keep it up 👍

[@karlmichael2255]

Very informative. Would it be beneficial if I opted to have a 3 crosses on my 20 size set of wheels, 36 holes and a 24 set of wheels, 32,36 holes?

[@Mobilant_US]

Hello. What do you think about the road bike Campagnolo G3 spoke pattern?

[@ticket573]

Hello! I have a 20inch bmx bike, i tried to rebuild my wheelset but my spokes stick out of the rim maybe about 5mm and i can't tighten them the right way, which pattern should i use? My hub's flange is 144mm.

[@ΑΣΔΦΓΗΞΚΛ]

17:04 NO! You need to be able to fix it on the road. 4X covers the spoke heads on the flange - not serviceable you can't get the broken spoke out or the replacement in

[@vittocrazi]

You dont fix spokes on the Road...

[@ΑΣΔΦΓΗΞΚΛ]

@@vittocrazi speak for yourself. You clearly don't tour.

[@vittocrazi]

@@ΑΣΔΦΓΗΞΚΛ sure, Buddy. If you brake a spoke you should be able to continue. Maybe just Carry a spoke wrench and true It just to go somewhere you can repair It properly. But if you are breaking spokes regularly on the Road, then you are failing to tune Up your bike for travel...

[@ΑΣΔΦΓΗΞΚΛ]

@@vittocrazi "carry a spoke wrench" well shucks, do you know? I hadn't thought of that! If I'm replacing a spoke on the road, then I obviously carry a spoke key, don't I? Yes you can true it approximately with 35 spokes, but there's now extra stresses on the remaining spokes - this will ensure that you break spokes regularly. With all due respect, which is none, I'll fix a spoke as I would a puncture, because I want to avoid the above situation and because "somewhere you can repair it properly" could be days away. And, as I pointed out in my original comment, if it's 3 cross then it can be repaired properly on the spot whereas four cross makes it a nightmare. Anyway thanks for the great advice on what should be in my touring toolkit when it's already obviously so equipped, got any more genius tips?

[@vittocrazi]

@@ΑΣΔΦΓΗΞΚΛ yes. One. Reading comprehension. Im not saying you dont have the spoke wrench. Im saying you just need the spoke wrench and not the spare spokes. And again, build and maintain your wheel properly and you wont have that kind of issue Oh. And if It has "j" bend spokes you have 50% chance of you having to unlace the wheel to remplace It anyway.

[@jaydavee]

I have 24-spoke Bontrager wheels which have spoke pairs close together instead of evenly spaced. I tore a spoke out of the rear rim while torquing uphill a few years ago. The hubs are not damaged. I never get motivated to do anything with finding rims and spokes to rebuild those. The bike those wheels were on now has wheels which I built in 2021. They are DT Swiss R500 32-spoke rims, 14 gauge spokes with 3 cross lacing, Deore disc brake hubs.

[@jasminelindros8923]

Wrong spoke is colored red at 3:04.

[@teunluijbregts2533]

Have good experiences with 28H 2 cross.

[@galaxychocolatebar]

How much wrap angle (at rim) is too much? 10° ?

[@erins9271]

Would a greater number of spokes and more crosses be better for a bike that carries a lot of weight?

[@parktool]

Most of the wheel strength is in the selection of the rim. More spokes allow the spokes to better share the stress cycles. A 32º wheel will not be "stronger" with 40º but the spokes will last longer.

[@FuchsHorst]

i managed to break a SRAM DualDrive 3 hub with 3/2 on 36L crossings, 3 holes in the hub flange frayed. :(

[@philippejoseph8604]

Hello, your videos are great. This time you didn't "spoke" ( humour ) about the interlace like a previous video : Spokes- To Interlace or Not to Interlace- - Tech Tuesday #206 At that time I had posted a comment about over-over-over better than over-over-UNDER that I had documented with a KZbin study : La relation entre longueur et raideur.. ! _ Roues Artisanales

[@mikejarrells431]

I'm guessing radial is the weakest option. Do more crosses equal more strength?

[@komoonkh]

Yes, if done right. But it also means more weight and rotational mass

[@Iowahurler82]

Depends on the application and the parts chosen.

[@Iowahurler82]

@@komoonkh Depends on parts chosen and application. Much more nuanced than any blanket yes or no can accurately answer.

[@haughtonhuggins7394]

I have a 36h rim snd a 24h hub could i make the 24 work in it and will it run true

[@simonm1447]

I think your spokes would need to be different in length to lace such a wheel. Likely not worth the hazzle, normal aluminium rims are not that expensive

[@franciscogonzalezmaldonado6781]

Cuál más recomendable para bicicleta de montaña 29.....tres cruces .o. cuatro.???.

[@p1010paul]

I would love to get your opinion on the old practice of tying the spokes at the final cross. I think it was big for people that did touring and loaded down their bikes for long distance trips.

[@pinchflat]

I have "tied and soldered" a few wheels. It does not do much for durability. It is great for endurance races. If you break a spoke it does not flop around. It is held in the wheel allowing you to continue.

[@moparman6814]

What about tied and soldered wheels? Used to see that in the old days

[@parktool]

That is a topic for another day. A fun skill that does perhaps nothing but entertain us.

[@pinchflat]

Good for endurance races. A broken spoke stays in the wheel and not flopping about.

[@dcataj5085]

Usually this means faster and more responsive, but also not as comfy, and it can potentially put increased stress on the rim.

[@zzhunt3254]

I have RD-R7000 GS , can i install cassete 12-25T? Is working?

[@parktool]

A 12-25T will work great with that derailleur.

[@spektrumB]

The non-drive side usually has lower spoke tension. Most of the time I think it doesn't matter. However, someone suggests I can do 3-cross on the drive side, and 2-cross on the non-drive side. The tension on both side would be closer. Has anyone else tried to build the wheel this way?

[@parktool]

If anything it would do the opposite. The spoke will be longer on a 3x and the bracing angle would be ever so slightly reduced. So the drive side would have an even worse bracing angle and the non drive side would have an even better one than normal. In the video we show the Mavic wheel where the drive side is radial and the non driveside is crossed. The goal is to achieve closer bracing angles side to side. Radial driveside, high drive side flange, offset rims, or asymmetrical rear triangles are all ways that companies try to increase driveside bracing angle. Depending on your application you would be better off doing the same pattern on both sides.

[@CodSlap]

If symmetrical tension is your goal, I can heartily recommend the solution I use: different gauge spokes. Stick to 3-cross on both sides, but on the drive side (rear) use a thicker gauge - something like Sapim Strongs, and on the non-drive-side (rear) try a thinner gauge, like DT Swiss Alpine III’s. Works a treat! Just remember that if you’re running disc brakes, the front wheel will have the opposite configuration (thinner gauge on the drive-side), as the disc brake rotor pushes the non-drive-side flange closer to the center of the hub in the front than the drive-side one. Picked this one up from Sheldon Brown’s website back in the day - tried it, and never went back.

[@spektrumB]

@CodSlap Thanks. Great recommendations. Sure will try on my next wheels as you suggested.

[@CodSlap]

@@spektrumB No problem - happy building! 🙂

[@ReneGingras-yc6ly]

​I just order his book,hope to learns lot If I ever decide to build a rim thinking about it​@@CodSlap

[@franciscogonzalezmaldonado6781]

Para bicicleta electrica.cual es recomendable.3.cruses.?...o.,4 Cruces..

[@peterwillson1355]

Escucha!

[@Pienimusta]

Lacing and truing bike wheel is dark arts.

[@JK-dv3qe]

you have to be a Jedi

[@pinchflat]

Not "dark art". Just science and math.

[@WowRixter]

Can spokes and nipples be reused?

[@parktool]

Good question. Possibly, if not badly damaged or rusted. However, spokes are subject a stress cycles, and with enough use will break even with normal use. If you have a newer wheel that has a smashed rim, the spokes are likely fine and can be used. If the spoke has lots of miles, they might only have a bit more left in the stress cycle life.

[@WowRixter]

@@parktoolgood points. Thanks guys

[@endtimeslips4660]

G3 still the strongest for my personal experience.

[@endtimeslips4660]

@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 never had the issue. in fact my G3 from campagnolo is the oldest WS i ever own. never gone trueing only change bearing and hub body because wearing from long term usage.

[@thesohnly]

What about mixing a 36 hole hub with a 28 hole rim?

[@parktool]

Technically possible, but you will end up with several lengths of spokes. A fun math or CAD problem certainly, but not practical.

[@handendaer]

If carrying about optimization and ur performance/results, u need try and feel. U just never know what u like, but knowing is The first step.

[@Renae-ca]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3XIlIiDpLVqfNUsi=fD6rL8E2aqyeqaOG&t=885 Did anyone hear that? Is there a duck in the room?

[@caracolrojo]

17:35 "more neighbours taking the load"

[@anotheryoutuber_]

there are only two good options 36 3cross and 72 radial

[@simonm1447]

However for radial you need a hub which is made for a radial pattern. Most hubs are not made for that. The spokes will put the forces completely different into the hub if you do a radial pattern, and if you use a standard hub it can rip off parts of the flange

[@MdBoj-n2v]

،Nice