🌷 PART 1 - I Tarocchi Del Mantegna, c 1450s (Il Meneghello, 2017) \\ Not Tarot Not Mantegna

[@ZosAos]

Wow this is PACKED with mythological references, very rich and beautifully presented deck, and I like how it has a lightish/organic feel about it in this publication. Interesting that it aligns closely with those philosophies around the virtues. And more food for thought around the period and correspondences with the ideas embodied in the original Marziano deck of 1417-25 as well -some very similar themes going on there too. Interesting indeed. Love the mystery around these Mantegna decks:) Thanks for the walkthrough!

[@NobodyHere]

It is indeed. I had to google Plato's REPUBLIC! That took me to a whole other thing about the nature of psyche according to Plato. And that took me to Neo-Platonism (and Robert Place's Sevenfold Mystery trumps)..... I really enjoyed myself here :D even though in the back of my mind, I was wondering as I filmed this, if this is perhaps not quite for this channel? And then I thought, is this a channel? Is this not me? Also, this is not a tarot channel? So I can do whatever? :D

[@woke2woke153]

Great to see you so excited with this. I agree - it IS exciting!

[@NobodyHere]

I wish I am still this excited about tarot these days. But after seven years we do have ebb and flows, and it is OK 🤓

[@woke2woke153]

@@NobodyHere Yes. Labour is needed too. Perseverence. And those theological virtues!

[@maggardyful]

So beautiful! You explain it so well.

[@woke2woke153]

Thank you for working through this. Very interesting.

[@NobodyHere]

Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I don’t know where this channel is going in 2021 and beyond, but I appreciate the comments and the likes. They will help each video you watched, commented, and liked, rides KZbin’s current algorithm 😁

[@woke2woke153]

@@NobodyHere I ordered these cards after watching your video. Maybe you should get a commission from Meneghello! Ha!

[@woke2woke153]

@@NobodyHere I suppose your channel will go wherever you are going. For myself, like many in the West, I became a Buddhist for a number of years after having had an interest in it for many more previously. I studied with a lama in a Tibetan lineage for half of that time. In the end, I got so deeply into it that I realised how very English and European I was, and began to appreciate the value and cultural uniqueness of my own Christian foundations. Eventually I found I had to leave Buddhism and re-orientate myself to the Christian Church. It was as much a going forwards as a going backwards, and it certainly didn't involve my becoming ga-ga! I see your work as exploring our organic Western cultural foundations, and I value that very much. They're too valuable to be forgotten. If there's dirty laundry in it, its MY dirty laundry, and I feel a responsibility to own it. Did you look at my link? You should, having pinned it. I wouldn't want to embarrass you with views you may not agree with. Thanks again.

[@woke2woke153]

PS I'm very much in the Jordan Peterson way of thinking about current cultural developments.

[@woke2woke153]

@@NobodyHere I think these foundational tarocchi illustrate how Christendom was trying to culturally enrich itself with the wisdom of classical antiquity without transgressing against its own essential spiritual character. This is very typical of Christianity throughout its history.

[@TheLivingWheel]

My copy came yesterday and I haven't put it down - I love it! Still watching your video :)

[@NobodyHere]

It is even more interesting when you grab some other decks from the same period :D

[@QuaesitorDei]

AMAZING CHANNEL to find! To walk your library i imagine would be a dreamy experience. i printed the Mantegna off on modern vellum. Got the images off the British Libraries webisite. Does Maneghello engrave them?

[@NobodyHere]

I believe Meneghello only reprint them. So sorry but I have been out of the tarot game for a long time now. So I appreciate your kind words 😁

[@QuaesitorDei]

@@NobodyHere I was more interested in this deck for the liberal arts depictions. I get the impression your library consists of much more than just tarot lol

[@VivianaGuzmanFlute]

Thank you for your beautiful video. I am so intrigued. I can't seem to find this deck to order online. Do you have any suggestions?

[@NobodyHere]

Check out Il Meneghello on FB or IG, and contact them that way. Usually it is Christina, who has taken over the company who will communicate with you.

[@patreekotime4578]

30:42 The head on Philosophia's sheild is pretty clearly the Aegis... the protective amulet made from Medusa's head, worn by Athena. It, like the Spear and Armor she is wearing connects Philosophia directly to Athena, goddess of Wisdom. How does the author get hydra out of that?

[@NobodyHere]

The author is Christina Dorsini. She is the new owner of Il Meneghello and from what I understand is the daughter of the late Mastero’s partner who also has passed away. She was trained as an art historian apparently. But I have found her takes on art history to be slightly unconventional. I can’t speak to her qualifications or credibility. I have also left the tarot world a few years ago and I am not up to date with whether there has been any revisions to this text. The tarot world is rive with unfounded theories since there really isn’t any established peer reviewed procedures and no serious academia would want to touch the topic of tarot. So a lot of texts should be considered personal musings and not canon. Please do let me know if you find anything. Thank you for watching and commenting.

[@patreekotime4578]

@@NobodyHere Yeah, it's actually pretty frustrating when more actual scholarship seems to have gone into the creation of some of these decks and drawings than modern "scholars" are putting into the "explanation" of them. And more often than not there are these convoluted around the world explanations instead of what is just obviously right in the image. I can see why you got out of it!

[@NobodyHere]

@@patreekotime4578 Sir Michael Dummet written some books about tarot that isnworth reading. There is also a blogspot page called Pre-Gebelin Tarot History you should check out. As a rule, check out historians, philosophers, or cultural scientists such as anthropologists or sociologists who wrote about tarot. Such as “The Cultural History of Tarot” by Farley that’s available for free as a PDF and the author herself recommended. And avoid authors with more metaphysical underpinnings. All the best.

[@patreekotime4578]

@@NobodyHere The problem seems to be on both sides of the divide as far as I can tell. The esoterists made up a bunch of bunkiss about Egyptian origins at a time when it was convenient to pass off any and all esoteria as Egyptian because heiroglyphs hadn't been translated yet. And on the other side of the isle we have this bizarre overcorrection saying that there was nothing remotely spiritually symbolic in the tarot before them. Which is strange because here we have a series of images appearing in the late medieval era covered in pretty obviously spiritually significant symbols. Had they been anything else other than playing cards the same historians would be having a feild day discussing the significance of these images and what they reflect about the ways these cultures viewed themselves and the ideas present in the cards. Or we see examples of narratives invented to support a thesis that are based on a few cards and don't seem to be fully supported by the bulk of the images themselves. Especially attempts to identify the artists who created certain decks are frought with problems resulting from the fact that tarot historians never seem to be artists or art historians themselves. A common trope I've seen is the "this deck contains a hat (or other common item) like the one in this painting, therefore this must be the same artist". A hat style may link a painting and a deck of cards to the same region and rough time period... or it may not at all. One would have to do a deep and thorough study of late medieval fashion (or in the cases of Sola Busca and E-Series: late-medieval armory) to actually make those connections... but even then... artists have created stylistic anachronisms in their work to make things appear older for centuries, so all you may discover is the period and place the artist wanted us to THINK the designs are from! And that is made more confusing by the general trend from both sides to try to date everything as early as possible for "tarot street cred" that sometimes feels just as ridiculous as the Egyptian sorcery stories. The deeper I dig, the more frustrated I am with much of the scholarship, especially on artwork with uncertain dating and arthorship. Even decks like Sola Busca that seem to have been nailed down to a specific date... can we be certain that the date on the cards refers to when they were published and isn't just in rememberance of an important historic date? The vast majority of 9/11 "memorabilia" merchandise was created after 2001, and yet that year is clearly visible and there are symbols on it that clearly relate to the events of that year. I just have serious misgivings about the methodology and assumptions and starting theses of a great deal of the research I'm reading.

[@woke2woke153]

Just to reassure you, your English is very good and constructed perfectly naturally for English ears.

[@NobodyHere]

I am very glad to hear! It is my third language with my second language being Dutch which I no longer speak due to being too young when I transitioned to English!

[@tarotmap]

What a feast! Omg Anneke! Thank you so much for spending all this time to share with us! I LOVED this xxx

[@NobodyHere]

😁

[@slipthetrap]

Very thorough :-) I would be interested in the "art historical side of things", not that I know a lot about such things, but it would be interesting.

[@NobodyHere]

I will read out her intro for you. She is obviously in the Mantegna attribution camp. Others seem to doubt that very much. Also, others believe this is not even tarot. While here it is clearly called so, as well as with Lo Scarabeo's repro and colouring from 2000. I suppose this is in line with their market :)

[@slipthetrap]

Thanks, looking forward to it :-)

[@Rug80]

Ps: Master Osvaldo Menegazzi actually is her grandfather; she's doing really a great job bringing forward their tradition

[@NobodyHere]

nkanter I was informed that she is his step daughter. Thanks for the info!

[@iggycrow]

were these cards for teaching as oposed to games/divination?also the eighth sphere related to the arcontic/ahriman (re;blavatski,steiner'hitherto'secret of the mystery schools!)and re-incarnation?'a warning to our present times

[@NobodyHere]

It is my personal believe that very few tarot and decks were actually created for divination. Except explicitly esoteric tarot which began in the French occultist movements in the 1700s. Or, Sola Busca from several centuries before (The Game of Saturn by Scarlet Imprint is a good one to discuss that). But this one, especially this one, in my opinion, is definitely part of a trump game which often used the "parade" (like those religious processions of olds during festivals) as a way to play the game. Remember that spirituality and daily lives in ancient times were not as separated as they are today. A lot of sciences were born out of what today might be considered magic. There are great historical books you can read. Two I would highly recommend is A Wicked Pack of Cards and History of The Occult Tarot. Have fun!

[@CeitDeVitto]

Where did you get the book??? Can you post the name of it. Really want to see If I can get this deck

[@NobodyHere]

I bought it together with the deck. Can't remember if it was included as a set.... To be honest, I think there are a lot of better books out there about this particular set of trump playing cards and images. It is a rather well known pack of cards. Christina Dorsini also seemed to stand apart in theorizing that these images are indeed by Mantegna. Most art historian and playing card historian do not believe it is so. I am personally more of the opinion that they were not by Mantegna. At least not from the argument and image comparisons that have been proposed by Christina Dorsini in this book. Good luck!

[@CeitDeVitto]

@@NobodyHere I just realized they came together. I have to wait until come in stock again :(

[@NobodyHere]

@@CeitDeVitto This might not be a popular opinion, but I feel you might get more out of the history enthusiasts in the Tarot History Forum, compared to this book. There are a lot of info about this set out there, and it might be best to also check other sources. Here is one thread of discussion in the Tarot History Forum forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=463

[@CeitDeVitto]

@@NobodyHere I just wanted it for the images. Not neccesarily for the interpretation. They seem like the best quality image out side the deck. Thank you for the information though. I really appreciate it.

[@NobodyHere]

@@CeitDeVitto Sorry I was talking about the book not the cards :) None of the books that I know of has "interpretation" as such, more explanations about what each image is and how they relate to the processions of trumps in the whole pack. Good luck with getting the deck!!

[@woke2woke153]

It occurs to me that the youthfulness of the King compared to the agedness of the Doge, is quite significant in that It tends to emphasise the different bases of their respective powers. The young King receives his social status through inheritance, and his right to rule through divine right. The Doge, in comparison, is an essentially political office, and he receives his authority and power through election, implying all the usual courting of favour that elected politicians have to engage in.

[@NobodyHere]

That’s a brilliant point!!

[@woke2woke153]

The Emperor also rules by divine right but this privilege is not unconditional - he has to use his judgement and will to serve the divine will, hence his worried laboured countenance. The Pope has a similarly laboured countenance, reflecting his secular role, but the feminine cast to his features conveys more than just service and servitude, but complete surrender to the divine will, reminiscent of Mary as the mother of Christ and the embodiment of Holy Mother Church.

[@NobodyHere]

Another brilliant point!! I came to the same conclusion also via the story of Mary, but in a less eloquent manner LOL

[@woke2woke153]

My impression is that the tarocchi were abbreviated derivations of this.

[@NobodyHere]

I always wondered about that. Somewhere it was argued that tarot is a combo of two games. One like this one and another like the card games a lot of us play today (tarot is still played as a game in some parts of the world just not my part of the world).

[@woke2woke153]

@@NobodyHere When you pointed out the similarities to some of the Tarot majors I agreed immediately. They're very obvious but also very much fuller bistorically speaking. A real eye-opener for me. Thank you.