Pathfinder 2E: Mutagenist Alchemist

[@connormcconnell7881]

The funny thing is is that this is exactly like jekel and Hyde because in the original story Hyde was just a new face so jekel could be an asshat without being punished it was still the doctor with just a fancy potion to make him look different

[@linus4d1]

Glad to see some love for the Alchemist

[@phantomprince4278]

Your videos are quickly becoming some of my favorite to look out for on youtube!

[@organised9119]

I love your brand of theatrics, it really is very unique

[@donnkasten4111]

I love this build! Was looking at using the investigator as the base, for a similar backstory/personality but you make the mutigenist very intriguing.

[@bokajon]

Such an amazing channel!!

[@afrosamurai3847]

I'm going for an alchemist whose research into evolving humanity via serums and elixars was scoffed at by other academics and members of high court such as wizards and such so devoid of funding he was forced to use himself as a petry dish troubleshooting and enhancing himself beyond his mortal limits. To the point that he wants his body to be a living weapon very much like monks' pursuits of perfection only with no concept of inner enlightenment. Through both training and science pushing the envelope further to become the next step in human evolution.

[@retrodmray]

Could you also cover that Chirugeon and the Bomber too as comparisons? I'm struggling with even including Alchemist at all in my games, and so are my players. Thnx!!

[@jamesbond3485]

Why does a Mutagenist need Any int at all? only for non infused reagent creations? lvls get you way more then enough reagents trying to find why every ones saying need 16 int or more when i want 12 Pls halp? and with bite can only bite once a turn ? and can you bite first ?

[@LegendaryCMD]

I think you are right; you definitely COULD dump your starting intelligence. Some of the starting ability options could be: int 18, str 16, Dex 12, Con 12 int 14, str 16, Dex 14, con 14 int 14, str 16, Dex 16, con 12 int 14, str 16, Dex 12, con 16 I guess I was leaning towards a maxed-out intelligence which would let you excel at alchemist types of skills, but, depending on your preference, you might get more mileage out of a higher dex or con. A higher intelligence gives you higher resistance to physical damage when under the effects of a juggernaut mutagen with the level 12 feat INVINCIBLE MUTAGEN. However, the difference between a 14 starting intelligence and an 18 starting intelligence is always only going to be 1 point difference after level 10, which isn't exactly a game changer. (it's either résistance 5 or resistance 4 and then at level 20 it's resistance 5 or resistance 6). Regarding bite attacks, when under the effects of bestial mutagen, you are capable of making either jaw attacks or a claw attacks. You can make either one whenever you want. The jaw attack is going to deal more damage, but the claw attack has the agile trait which means there is less of a penalty to make a claw attack when you have a multiple attack penalty. So, it makes the most sense to use the jaw attack as your first attack and then follow it up with a claw attack or claw attacks. It's still up to you. You can make whatever attacks you want and in the heat of battle, I recommend you follow your bestial instincts! Cheers mate, I hope you are well, thanks for being here. Send any follow up questions my way!!!

[@jamesbond3485]

@@LegendaryCMD ty very much for infos :}

[@darkenblade986]

when u took the feats into investigator and fighter was this based on the free archetype rules or did u replace ur own class feats. and could this be replicated with free archetype.

[@LegendaryCMD]

I was using the alchemist feat slots, so using a free archetype would work out great. After thinking about this for a while, it occurred to me that the alchemist really needs a good single action attack, and most of this video focused on two action or extra action attacks. The thing is, the alchemist, particularly the mutagenist, is always drawing and drinking potions, and that is their strength. So having a two action attack ends up cutting into that strength, while a good single action attack, allows them to do both. Here is the deal, there aren't a lot of good single actions attacks that you can do with unarmed attacks. One of the best ones is Flurry fo Blows from the monk, but you can't get this until level 10. So you could simply snag the monk dedication as a human with your multitalented feat at level 9 and then at level 10 take the flurry of blows. Then you can use a single action to make two attacks, and your unarmed attacks are great, and it still leaves the two actions left over each round to draw and drink an elixir. But that isn't until level 10 and you don't get much out of a monk dedication before level 10 to make it worhwhile, so, consider a wrestler archetype dedication. The wrestler has a bunch of single action unarmed attacks. Now, they aren't awesome damage, but they do add some interesting effects. You might be able to make that work pretty well and have some fun with it!! Cheers mate!!!!

[@aventuraenlafogata649]

I love your videos, and they are always very informative. This channel is unique and thanks for that. I think that comparing quasi-martials with a fighter is unfair. Comparing normal martials to fighters is already tricky, since fighters are the best of the best, I think maybe only barbarians and rangers can keep up (I have not made the math). So comparing Mutagenist with a Monk, (or even an unarmed fighter) would have been better, since this Mutagenist is unarmed too. Two handed power attack Fighters would always make everyone else look bad in damage.

[@LegendaryCMD]

Hey hey! I like this. Monk would have been a perfect fit for a comparison and more interesting. Glad you are here!!

[@robinbernardinis]

This is a great video, very interesting build. I honestly disliked the mutagenist quite a bit, but this honestly seems like a cool character to play. Just a couple of perplexities: 2:00 isn't there supposed to be an extra ability boost? A level 1 character should have 9 ability boosts unless you take ability flaws, which you don't need to take for this build. Am I missing something? 13:24 Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the Devise a Stratagem attack to the Power Attack without adding a second attack, considering they both cost 2 actions?

[@LegendaryCMD]

Ah yeah...i'd say go one more boost in con, maybe dex. And yes, right on with the comparison. Should be devise a stratagem attack vs power attack. Great calls there.

[@aaroncollier8973]

Would love to see an updated build making a mutagenist in a new campaign

[@flameloude]

Great video. I enjoy these since as a dm i don't really look at how to build characters.

[@RainbowRandolf]

It is super interesting to think what this build turns into with Free Archtype in mind.

[@LegendaryCMD]

My opinion now is that monk might be the best mix with mutagenist, mostly because the flurryof blows at level 10 keeps two actions free each round to do mutagenist things, i.e. draw and drink

[@fe1nofx]

If i'd want to make Geralt of Rivia type of character would Alchemist dedication for a Fighter or Ranger be a base for viable build?

[@lincr.1988]

Hey man, have you added the Greater Weapon Specialization damage that the latest Bestial Mutagen gives? Btw would you mind sharing that google sheet you used so I could test some things?

[@linus4d1]

Chirugeon is best healing during downtime, but I think cleric and life oracle still has them beat in combat.

[@LegendaryCMD]

Hey, hey, good to see you!

[@Icestud_49]

I would enjoy a two weapon archetype barbarian vs a power attack fighter comparison. I haven't done that one yet. It does tend to focus on two attacks per round but they're ways to optimize it such as animal companion support benefits. I personally love the animal companion archetype. The more damage soakers the better.

[@domblebuilds]

Really glad I found this channel, enjoying it a lot! Does the third attack on the fighter really add more DPR than intimidating or feinting before the power attack?

[@LegendaryCMD]

Good call!! I bet you are right. Attacking a 2 lower armor class on that first power attack would add in some great damage with those criticals. And then hit with a desperate finisher at only minus 5...that would be nasty! I like it.

[@christianna4404]

Would love to see one for bomber alchemist.

[@pierre-simonhenri5067]

Great content! I realy like your channel. I like your breakdown with your excel sheet. Very informative. I would be curious to know your thought about the chirurgeon, i'm curious to know? About your use of 3d, i was wondering what was the problem with the fact that we only seem to be seeing the backface of your mesh ? We can see the shoulderpad when we shouldn't?

[@LegendaryCMD]

Thanks! Some Mixamo characters, usually the bigger ones but some average sized ones too, when they go into Unity something happens to the textures. Really new to it so still figuring it out.

[@pierre-simonhenri5067]

@@LegendaryCMD ​Probably the "normal" on your mesh were inverted in the process. Normal are used on a 3d to tell the render engine in what direction you should render the faces. Some parts of your mesh seem properly aligned , but other don't. Try seeing with the main body of your mesh if you could FLIP the normal directly in the material or just put your material two sided? If not maybe during import into unity, make sure the normal ain't flip or flip them to make sure it render correctly. Peace!

[@Rompetestaz]

Eres el mejor. ♡

[@StanNotSoSaint]

That's pretty X-Men Beast vibe character

[@boris_bulletdodger9109]

Positive comment 😊

[@TheLocalDisasterTourGuide]

My first Alchemist in Pathfinder 1e was a Mutagenist - Flameshot the Incredible (the world's least well disguised superhero). This video made me nostalgic & now I'm wondering how he'd turn out under 2e.

[@PyroMancer2k]

I'm gonna start off with my initial thoughts going in. I've always been a fan of the alchemist, however I tend to considered all but bomber field to be rather lacking. The mutagenist seem like a sub-par melee upon my original look. The problem I often saw with the other fields is the biggest feature comes from Perpetuals which it's easy enough to make lots of mutagens or whatever you need. So other than something you use a lot of in a fight will not really benefit from this as mutagens tend to me one and done for the fight. As such looking over the build the video seemed primarily focus on trying keep up with PA Fighter without touching as much on what else you could do be doing, aside from having lots of skills. As you say in the vid the Mutagenist is underwhelming and looking at the feat picks it seems kind of weak for a while. Alchemical Savant is more flavor where as I would have got with the Alchemical Familiar to get an extra infuse regent each day which helps a lot early on. The revivifying mutagen I had forgotten about and that could see some use with perpetual mutagens to keep healing yourself if you don't got a healer in the group as that's unlimited in combat healing. The Combine Elixir though I think is potentially powerful later in the build because it cost so many regents but aside from saving you 1 infuse as a Mutagenist if you use a perpetual for the base there is nothing unique to the Mutagenist path in much of the build aside from mentioning you can have both Beast and Jug up at the same time which I don't think is best use of that as you could use Combine Elixir to put them both into one. That was my initial reaction along with Overall I think the build comes together a bit late as your not getting Devise until 10 and PA until 18. It would be better if you get Devise earlier and PA at level 10. So I dug back into Alchemist to see how we can do that as I haven't looked it over in a while ;). Ancient Elf (Pick MC Feat:Investigator Dedication) (AF1: Elven Lore) BG Teacher Stats 16 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 18 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha. Since Elf gets Dex I figured put the extra point into Dex instead of Wis like you did because if you decided to go with Drakeheart Mutagen to boost AC it has +2 Dex Cap but it's mostly personal preference. But now for the good Part as it really plays into the Teacher/Know it All Roll. Teacher Skills:Academia Lore, Society Investigator Dedication Skills: Arcana, Occultism Elven Lore Skills: Elven Lore, Diplomacy, Nature Alchemist Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Crafting, Intimidation, Medicine, Religion, Survial, Thievery The only skills it's missing is Deception, Performance, and Stealth. But you will get another Skill when you get Fighter Dedication. Now that we got professor side down let's see what we can do about the beast. CF=Class Feat, GF=General Feat, AF=Ancestry Feat CF1: Alchemical Familiar CF2: Revivifying Mutagen GF3: Adopted Ancestry (Human) CF4: Investigator's Stratagem AF5: Elven Instincts CF6: Basic Deduction (Known Weaknesses) CF8: Feral Mutagen AF9: Multitalented (Fighter Dedication) CF10: Basic Maneuver (Power Attack) CF12: Extend Elixir CF14: Invincible Mutagen CF16: Eternal Elixir CF18: Improbable Elixirs CF20: Perfect Mutagen I didn't use General Feats 7, 11, 15, and 19. Ancestry Feats 13 and 17. Or any of Skill Feats so you should still be able to slot in all the stuff from the original build in those areas. As for the build the Familiar is just too useful to pass up. The Extra Regent early on is nice and once you hit higher levels if you don't need that extra regent you can shift it over to be a scout with Share Senses, have to hand you things as a Valet, or any number of options which change daily. Going forward though Revivifying Mutagen seemed like not only the best option but the only option really. The first General Feat goes to Adopted Ancestry Human so that when level 9 comes around we can get Fighter Dedication but if needed you could hold off on it until General Feat 7. I picked it at this level to give the option to choose Human Feats come level 5 if needed. However upon on review I figured Elven Instincts which gives Perception bonus fit the character flavor more. When it comes to Devise Stratagem your now getting that into play on Level 4 which is great as you'll have all those levels to make use of it and help with the to hit chance. Followed by the Known Weaknesses coming in at 6. I considered the Combine Elixirs but just couldn't find a good spot for it. The heavy hitting starts to come online around level 8 with Feral Mutagen. Then you pickup the Fighter Dedication and Power Attack come level 10. I'd really like to see how the numbers on that plays out. I left Invincible Mutagen in for the Jug boost since at that point you can have both Beast and Jug up if you want though I figured 5 Resist All is not that great, it's personal preference as there are some other options. After that it pretty much has what the other build was going for but lots more of high level Alchemist feats still open for some crazy stuff, and I do mean crazy. ;) Before I start on crazy I'd like to point out that regular Elixirs don't conflict with mutagens. So you are not restricted by the rules of only One active at a time which can lead to some interesting things. First off I get Extend Elixir which doubles the duration of Elixirs on you. And since at this point most Elixirs are starting to have 1 hour duration that means you'll have it in effect for 2 hours, this also applies to Mutagens so you'll need to use less of them as you stay mutated longer. While Longer Elixirs are fun they aren't quite crazy level. The Eternal Elixir gets you that as you can have a single elixir who's duration is indefinite. If you decide you want a different effect then you simply drink that Elixir and have it's effects replace your previous one since it limits to one indefinite at a time and the elixir is only half your level. While that's pretty crazy it gets even better with Improbable Elixirs which allow you to take your INT Modifier and get the Formula for that many Potions of level 9 or lower. Those potions gain the Elixir Trait which means they can go Eternal ;). Potion of Fly? Indefinite flight. Potion of Invisibility? Indefinite Invisibility, until you attack that is. And so many other options, basically look at the potion list for those below level 9 and pick 5. This is also where I think a better option for Invincible Mutagen could come in as instead of that take Combine Elixir and well I think you can see where this is going ;). Wrapping up the class feats Perfect Mutagen seems like an obvious pick so you no longer suffer the negative effects of your mutagens. From your original setup I ended up only dropping the Enduring Alchemy and Combine Elixir while gaining a class feat because both dedications are coming from the Ancestry. Since human is still open if one was interested they could get National Ambition for another Class 1 Feat. But overall I think it could feel a bit better to play as you'll get to spend most of your game Devising and hitting those Power Attacks for the whole second half of your career rather than just a small bit at the end. In closing I think the it has more potential that I original gave it credit. And fun with Elixirs can do some interesting things.

[@squidrecluse2336]

commenting to feed the algorithm

[@PyroMancer2k]

I don't think Chirurgeon is that good of a healer. The only thing it gets from it's field is the ability to make 3 Elixirs of Life per Daily Ingredient, it can use craft instead of Medicine on skill check, and when you use quick alchemy to make an Elixir they gain max HP instead of needing to roll. The feat that lets you throw healing potions can be used by any alchemist type and since it changes to topical instead of drinking potion the Chirurgeon's heal for max doesn't apply. Sure if the Chirurgeon spent most or all of their daily preparations to create 3 Elixirs with each one it could probably have more healing potential than a character with healing spells due to only having a curtain number of spells per level and weaker spells not healing as much. But that healing potential is a lot weaker than you might think as if you compare spell to elixirs the 2-Action spell does 1d8+8 Per Level while the Elixir does about 1d6+2. I say about because it is slightly more than +2 but can't figure the exact formula where as the *d6 clearly lines up with the spell level available at it's item level. So yeah that's about 6-8 less damage per spell/item level in that range. That means a level 5 spell is doing 30-40 more healing than that corresponding item level 9 Elixir of life on average. While the Alchemist has access to more uses they have to get in close to make use of them. The thrown heal is handy in a pinch but not as effective since you only get 1 elixir per infuse when doing quick alchemy vs getting 3 when you do it as daily, even if they aren't thrown versions would give you more overall healing. Though normal healers have the ability to heal at range be default in their spells so it's no big loss. So because nothing is really that restricted to the Chirurgeon I would just take one of the other fields so you can be useful during all those times you won't be healing and then you can set aside some daily infuse to make Elixirs even if it is only 2 per ingredient. That's what I do when I play alchemist as I use 1 each day to have 2 Elixirs in a pinch and found it really handy in Plaguestone as a few times 2 characters would be down and the Druid had to pick which to heal that turn, where as I could run up and use an elixir on the other to get them back up on their feet instead being dying on the floor making death saves. As a bomber you use the perpetuals to lob them all day long while freeing up your infuses for other things like Elixirs or Mutagens. Since you not longer are stuck having to worry about making enough to last the day which in early levels was my biggest concern as level 1 you get 5 infuse or 10 items (15 if signature item thanks to Errata) which means 10-15 strikes per day and then your out. At later levels you have so many infuse it's not as much of an issue and the perpetuals help with that. But as you progress it becomes easy to the Alchemist is cover all fields in terms of what items they make Daily. So the only real question is what other bonuses does your Research field being to the table and in the Case of the Chirurgeon it's very little. When it comes down to it playing an Alchemist you are better off with pretty much any other research field as an extra 1 elixir per daily infused spent isn't work the trade off. And for all the times not healing you need something strong to fall back on. The caster classes have a ton of utility and attack spells they could use. While sure the Chirurgeon could make some Alchemist Fire or other items to toss at the enemy their use is limited to daily infuse since they don't get them in perpetual and Chirurgeon's perpetuals are antiplague and antidote which are worthless to have unlimited in. From my experience in PF 2E a healer does not need to be healing very round. It tends to be more like every 3rd round or in extreme cases every 2 rounds. This is because in TTRPGs it's not like an MMO where the healer focuses on keeping everyone at full HP. Instead it's about crisis management as making sure players have enough life that they won't go down in the following round. In PF 2E thanks to the medicine skill it's extremely easy to heal a party after every fight without using any of your limited dailies like Spells or Infused items so coming out of fights with most people below half HP is fine and effective use of saving heals for later. When it comes to out of combat healing Continual Recovery lets you treat someone every 10 minutes and Ward Medic let's you treat 2/4/8 characters at once depending on prof E/M/L. So when you hit Master Medicine skill it's easy for one medicine check to treat a party of 4 with 2d8+30 every 10 minutes so they could be ready for the next fight fairly quickly. Having a Medic Dedication helps this even more as it adds another 10 HP to Master level treatments. Medic also lets you use Battle Medicine once per hour on a target instead of once per day for some in combat healing. And the Medic dedication is open to anyone as I often use use it to boost healing if group lacks a strong healer and it uses mostly skill feats which means it doesn't clash with most builds that need their class feats. So any other healer focus can do it as well. When it comes down to it other than being a walking talking Elixir of Life dispenser I don't see much potential as "best healer" from Chirurgeon. I might of missed something so if anyone wants to comment on it feel free.

[@robertcarter9535]

Not a bad deal except for one thing you don’t have to hit points for the armor class to be on the front line… At the higher levels monsters hit hard really hard without armor class or hit points this character would get shredded very quickly this character would never make it to level 20 he would die long before level 20 because of lack of armor class or hit points

[@austinobst8989]

0 constitution oof

[@lincr.1988]

Yeah I... Really don't like this build of yours, sorry :/ It's suicidal. He's gonna be having -2 AC with Medium Armor, and you started with Con 10, it's not worth it. After a long research I found out that you won't last very long if you don't have at least the Sentinel Dedication, I get that at level 2 and then I get the Bastion Dedication at level 6, the rest is manageable with flanking and making the enemy Frightened. Btw comparing it with Fighter is pretty unfair, don't you think? Mutagenists are usually only -1 behind normal Martials so hitting is not that problematic as people may think. Btw I really want to see what you have to say about Chirurgeons lol You're gonna be the first person I know who says something good about it hahaha

[@robinbernardinis]

I agree that it has relatively bad survivability, but you could potentially make it 16 12 12 18 10 10, meaning you have full AC before mutagens and 9 HP/level, potentially 10 with toughness and even more with boosts down the line.

[@lincr.1988]

@@robinbernardinis It's still not enough unfortunatelly, it's sure manageable but I don't think it's very smart. It's fine before Feral Mutagen but risky after that

[@LegendaryCMD]

Hey hey, good to see you. Yeah, you are probably right. I'd say you'd have to play this one careful, really take on the support and occasional striker role. Good call.

[@lincr.1988]

@@LegendaryCMD Yeah but in this case, may s using Bestial Mutagen is not the best choice. I'd recommend Arched/Eldritch Archer Dedication and Quicksilver Mutagen. The Mutagenist in its current state is not bad, but it isn't good either, it lacks low level love from Paizo, but I could say the same about Investigator and Oracle, since both heavily rely on Dedications to be enjoyably playable.

[@PyroMancer2k]

@@lincr.1988 He's going for a theme, I'm guessing a Dr. Jackal and Mr. Hyde type thing which is why he went with Bestial Mutagen. Changing it into an Archer defeats the purpose. I also don't see what Sentinel Dedication gets you other than Heavy armor which is fine if you got no Dex but after 2 attribute increases it's easy to get to 14 Dex and hit the Dex Cap on medium armor. You don't getting any higher proficiency from the dedication and the Proficiency curve on armor for the Alchemist is similar to most other martial classes. Sure the -2 AC can hurt but you should focus on going after soft targets and not running in trying to be the tank. Also you mention to get Bastion Dedication at level 6?!? If you got Sentinel at level 2 the only way to do that is to burn 2 skill feats on kinda meh skills, as one lets you rest in heavy armor and the other you get medium armor specialization but you took the dedication for Heavy armor. And all you really get is shield react out of Bastion. The alchemist doesn't need the feat to carry a shield and could just raise it normally, heck shield block would be a great general feat to pickup on that front as it would be better to spend your reaction blocking the damage of an attack rather than hoping the difference between raising and not raising the shield stops the attack. With Bestial you start out at -1 and the -2 doesn't hit until level 8. There are potential things you can do to mitigate it. Mistform Elixir for example gives you concealed for 1 minute at item level 5. You can also use Cheetah's Elixir for +10 Speed which last 10 minutes. You can have them both on with Bestial Mutagen because there is no restriction on the number of Elixirs you can have in effect. The restriction on only one in effect at a time is on the Polymorph effect that Mutagen's give. Heck after skimming through that I think Mistform is gonna become a common goto for my alchemist cause needing a flat DC 5 just for a hit to go through every combat is pretty nice. That's a 20% chance they will fail AFTER they made the successful hit to start. That alone I think can make up for -2 AC. But yeah a Mist Beast moving really fast around the battle can be great hit and run tactics. At later levels with the ability to have two Mutagens active at once you can swap in some jug elixirs for temp HP. Followed by revivifying them to heal and perpetualling them back to do it again. Also even starting at 0 CON even 5 levels he can put points into it and get more HP to get 18 CON come level 20. The more I look into the alchemist the more options I find.