Pathfinder: Kingmaker Character Building Basics (With 4 Examples)

In which I describe some basic concepts for building characters in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, a game a lot of people are having issues learning.

[@fixer10091994]

"What Im about to describe is not min-maxing, what Im about to describe is what Id call optimization" Im not a camper, I just wait at tactical positions to ambush the opposition

[@sugar4me225]

hahahaha

[@derrickbonsell]

25 points makes well-rounded characters more possible than lower point buys do. Is one more point in a modifier worth the points needed to get there? Maybe, maybe not, but it IS min-maxing if you are doing so.

[@kalibbailey6219]

I would argue "Min-Maxing" Would be Poring over builds for hours in an attempt to get that last 10% effectiveness and (or) break the game. I would say Optimization is a fair assessment

[@war1980]

@@kalibbailey6219 www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/optimization : an act, process, or methodology of making something (such as a design, system, or decision) as fully perfect, functional, or effective as possible Hmmm.

[@xXPrazenXx]

@@kalibbailey6219 Almost like watching a 1 and a half hour video on how to make your characters slightly more effective. I would say min-maxing is a fair assessment.

[@12fishcake]

I know this is like 3 years old now, but just wanna throw out a big thanks for this guide as someone who's just picked up kingmaker in anticipation of the second game. This was a huge help in understanding how to look at my builds and what kind of stat spread to go for - especially as you describe, not trying to build typical MMO classes (which is kind of exactly what I was doing at first), but more of an overall balanced build that leans towards that classes purpose. That really helped me understand the stat spread of a character, which isn't something I normally have issues with but I was struggling to grasp with this game. I actually love the complexity of the game's mechanics and the unforgiving nature of it and it's actually quite refreshing that all the stats matter to some degree for any class. I didn't take into account that completely dumping or focusing fully on one or two stats isn't a good way to go and your explanation as to the effects of doing so was very helpful rather than just saying "don't do this". That's a big thumbs up from me - also can't wait for the second game!

[@darkfireslide]

Thanks man! Glad the guide helped

[@icbblrecaps642]

Every time dark says that he is not min maxing, drink a shot

[@Roguhr]

or every time he says "umm"

[@ALDS-zk9ko]

@@Roguhr are you trying to die my dude?

[@chadcaughmann7898]

Its ironic this vid comes into my recommended list the day after EA meets with U.K. Politicians for a hearing: EA: they aren't Loot Boxes, they are Surprise Mechanics Darkfireslide: it's not Min-Maxing....it's Optimizing. That aside, the vid has plenty of good content in it.

[@DavidStavis]

"We dumped these stats to maximize these stats" - Wait, that's the definition of "minimize" and "maximize" XD

[@mathiassteven6695]

instablaster...

[@Ricky-jl1wf]

What you did for the fighter (I'm still watching the rest of the video) is exactly what min maxing is. You could have 10 mental stats across the board while bumping con a little bit and the character would still be viable. That's optimizing. Dumping stats is min-maxing. And there's nothing wrong with that. You bought the game, you play it however you want.

[@tjv2446]

As a pathfinder tabletop gamer I can confirm his statements about min-maxing are true. Pathfinder rule system is designed around the idea that character should have flaws. Min-maxing is when you build an Alchemist Ratfolk who has 4 claw attacks, a bite attack, a tail attack and a tentacle attack by level 6 resulting in the GM forcing you to retire a character because you’ve broken the game.

[@Reddotzebra]

Also, Reduce Person is an absolutely phenomenal spell to cast on a wizard or Alchemist of your own, because it will give them a single penalty to strength, which they don't use, and reduce their weapon damage, which they don't have to use, in return for a bonus to AC that stacks with most other bonuses to AC and a bonus to dexterity and hit. Early on you might even use this on a knife master rogue to get more hits for sneak attack, since those damage dice are not reduced like the weapon damage. You can turn your stabby halfling into this little pixie that just dashes around and stabs your enemy in the knees XD

[@hakenaton9031]

Very good video, lots to take and learn from it HOWEVER Charisma is NOT only for Persuasion and Use Magic Device. Charisma is important for channeling power.If you remove all charisma you have a Cleric with no Cleric power: 3 Channeling Power a day - the 3 minus from removing Charisma = Zero; I tested it and you get a very sad Cleric. There is other class dealing with channeling so make sure you read the In-Game description and information.

[@tahnar]

I found both the general introduction and the same characters very useful. Long, but not a waste of time. Thanks!

[@danrebeiz4598]

For all the jabs about the distinction between min/maxing and optimizing, I actually appreciated your take on it. Even if it’s technically the same thing, I actually understood it as more of a mindset that an exact science. It worked for me because I was taking the standard MMO approach to stats and not realizing how many things each stat affects. Thus, now I can be more mindful of the side effects of dumping certain stats that I may need for certain skill checks. Anyway, all that to say it was actually helpful to me as I’ve never played pnp Pathfinder and didn’t know the mechanics

[@Roxfall]

2 reasons for a 1st level fighter to start with 13 Intelligence: Combat Expertise (requires it) and Trip (requires CE). Everything you touch falls down when you activate Trip. You don't deal damage, but when your target tries to get up, it's a pinata of opportunity attacks from you and your barbarian friend and whoever else you brought in, so you apply crowd control and deal 2+ attacks worth of pain for sacrificing one.

[@PokemonTrainerChris303]

I just got this game and I use animal companion dog m. He attacks and can trip

[@owbu]

I like how you redefined "min-maxing" to be exploiting, so that you can "optimize" instead :D. You min-max. It's okay, no need to be ashamed about it :> Also thanks for the awesome guide. Really helpful!

[@Baraz_Red]

Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot : because the rules use the term "ranged weapon", a lot of people, me included, did not think it affected "weapon-like" spells where you need to roll to hit. But you are right, those Feats do apply to ray spells or similar attack spells. This always means you have -4 to hit an enemy in melee with one of your companions. This game does not improve rule descriptions anyhow... to say the least.

[@Neonmirrorblack]

"So the thing is"...this video is very informative for beginners. At an hour and a half though, you could have probably edited some of the improvisation out and cut the running time by at least thirty minutes if you had written a script, or at least a list for specific points. But anyway, still a good video. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

[@tobyakers2936]

I'm not exactly sure why "min-maxing" seems to have a negative connotation to you, or you feel the need to call it "optimizing", but the term min-maxing literally comes from minimizing some aspect that you don't care about to maximize an aspect that you do, which is exactly what you're doing here (and there's nothing wrong with that, especially in a computer game). Some people take issue to it in a role-playing game because the character is unrealistic in a world-view sense. Every fighter having a 7 intelligence and a 20 strength isn't very realistic and makes some people groan. However if you want to be the most effective fighter, that's likely how you're going to build them. Those that are opposed to min-maxing are also opposed to always making the most effective character. Min Maxing taken to extremes is something that's generally done in games that have a flaw system or some way to get more points, where you take any negative thing you can that won't have much impact to get better at the thing that you care about most on the character. For example, "I'll take color blind, no sense of smell, paranoia so I can get another +1 to hit and damage with my sword". In pathfinder your options are to tank certain stats you don't care about to maximize stats you do, and then select feats and class abilities that continue to further whatever your maximizing, and that is the definition of min-maxing (and again, nothing wrong with that).

[@timothymclean]

1:00: The distinction I'd make is that optimization is just trying to build a good character, min/maxing is a specific method of doing so (by giving your character extreme deficiencies in areas that "don't matter" (e.g, Charisma) to "pay for" extreme strengths in areas that do), and munchkinning is optimization intended to break the game. But it's not like these terms are set in stone; language is fluid and all that.

[@darkfireslide]

I mean that's true. My problem with the term min/maxing is that it assumes a character like a Fighter will be overpowered if you give it good stats at the cost of others. It's not true. Certain classes like Wizards and Clerics will outshine even an optimized Fighter. Another min/maxing thing to me is taking multiple classes to exploit bonuses, like dipping a level into Alchemist just to get a stat boost from a Mutagen.

[@bavettesAstartes]

@@darkfireslide I agree that in the tabletop casters will always outshine mundane classes, but from what I have been playing I feel the game has been fine enough. There is not as many ways in which casters outshine other classes, and since the player controls all characters I feel you never really has a chance to feel useless, and contrary to games of old (looking at you BG2) there's very little character envy, if any at all

[@bavettesAstartes]

Sorry if this was rambly. I just meant to say to not worry hard about stats that much. My fighter has 13 not cause I like the combat expertise three

[@trazyntheinfinite9895]

ah.. rolling for tge 90+ in bg and iwd for an hour and still dump int, now that is min maxing.

[@Wolfsspinne]

I would draw the line based on the outcome. Litterally min/maxing means at least one stat at 7 (min) and at least one other stat at 18 (max). So if you end up with one stat at 7 and another at 18, then you min/maxed. If you end up with a 16/17 for the highest stat and an 8 for the lowest stat, then you definitely did not min/max.

[@Terwox]

Man, am I glad this video exist. Decided to restart Kingmaker the other day. And the advice you gave in this video helped quite a bit. Then again, my first character was pretty much made through the age old method of "Throwing shit at the wall and see what sticks, but unfortunately there was a fan in the way that blew the shit all over the place instead."

[@DTribal001]

One thing I noticed you didn't mention. As a character levels up they get extra points to put in stats. (I've seen some posts saying 1 every 5 levels but I know it TT its every 4 levels for a total of 5) This is important because of how the stats advance. You get a +1 to the modifier of a stat at even numbers (Score 10 - 11 = +0; Score 12 - 13 + 1; Score 14 - 15 + 2, etc). So if you have a 18 STR score, you will NOT get a bonus to the MODIFIER until you spend 2 points (Level 8 by TT rules) in that skill. Where as, if you have a 17 STR score you will be able to get it to 18 by lvl 4 and get that extra. This is important because if the CRPG follows TT you will get a total of 5 increases. If you start a stat with an even number then that 1 extra point you get at level 20 will be nearly useless. Here is a chart - Level STR Modifier STR Modifier 1 17 +3 18 +4 4 18 +4 19 +4 8 19 +4 20 +5 12 20 +5 21 +5 16 21 +5 22 +6 20 22 +6 23 +6 This assumes you put all the bonus points into one stat and that the game doesn't have any major magic items that will perminantly boost a stat (like the tomes of knowledge in BG) So in the example fighter, you have all your "good" stats at even numbers which means that at least one of your bonus points will be nearly useless. (there are magic items that give you a +1 to a stat so its not a totally wasted point)

[@ADT1995]

There's also to take into account that feats generally have odd stat prerequisites. So you actually do sometimes want a 15 in dex instead of 14 for example, or a 13 in int instead of 12. That's all build dependent but it's worth mentioning.

[@dickwaffle3886]

I know it's nearly a year later, but thank you for doing this. Thank you so much. I screwed up a Ranger build and your information was paramount in helping me learn both where I went wrong, but also why and how.

[@goolabbolshevish1t651]

He was right mostly. Persuasion is quite useful though for melee as with one point in the thug subclass you can cause all your melee critical hits to do an aoe fear that uses persuasion as it's roll check.

[@Spookie24]

Just picked up this game on steam and this video is a so helpful. Great job on the video! Ages like wine :)

[@beckusmc99]

Basically if you understand the D&D rule set you're good to go lol

[@nickwilliams8302]

Which is _almost_ the same as 3e D&D.

[@bavettesAstartes]

Pretty much, yeah. Some things are easier and better tho. I mean, 3 of my characters take dodge for goodness sake

[@jayvis123111]

unless he's talking about first or second edition having a layman's understanding of any of the other systems transfers over extremely well.

[@orarinnsnorrason4614]

If you know 3e/3.5e D&D rules you understand this game because Pathfinder is based on those rules.

[@alncst3005]

Thats the definition of min max, lowering a stat to the minimum while rising another stat to the maximum

[@Mucknuggle]

"this is not min-maxing, this is optimizing..." :D

[@BigHatMatt]

Joe Rogue: "That's crazy man. Have you ever done DMT?"

[@sirmonkey3215]

Alchemist Bravo: "The world map is flat, look into it"

[@Regularguy220]

Mad Prophet: "I gotta be honest with you, I have a - 3 intelligence modifier

[@Miv51miv51]

"Basics"...1½ hour video :-D

[@gmfreeman4211]

For this game. Yep, sounds about right.

[@dimas3829]

yeah, I need MOAR

[@autowaaagh]

Welcome to Pathfinder

[@Soonzuh]

That's what happens when you ramble instead of using a script.

[@AA-di7jw]

Good job here. A few statements of yours i could debate or dispute but overall that's great advice. I'ld enjoy watching a let's play of this from you:)

[@slc9885]

Dark, welcome back (again)! (Also I just noticed this game on steam yesterday and it looked cool so this video seems very convenient)

[@darkfireslide]

Thank you! I love Pathfinder and wanted to do something for the wandering mass of souls having a hard time with this game.

[@TNO122085]

OMG THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO!!! I have been so lost has to how to build a charactor and how stats work and feats and this really help me out alot. THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! if there is anymore information you can give plz make more videos.

[@darkfireslide]

I planned on it! Stay tuned. :)

[@Susiemaster]

Hi. KZbin RANDOMLY recommended this video to me, and now I'm planning out when I can buy the game. So I guess you can say you convinced me to dollar vote for this game. :)

[@williameblen3474]

This is the best starting guide I have found.

[@perpetualnothing2289]

Piranha Strike is usually ineffective on a rogue, as when you miss you also lose your sneak attack damage. Rogues better focus on hitting instead of increasing damage (they rarely lack damage).

[@leinardesteves3987]

Hey, it's been 3 years. But I just wanna say I love you man thanks for this

[@darkfireslide]

You're welcome, man

[@XxW4RB0RNxX]

This was so helpful even 4years later thank you

[@lyssplyss3982]

This video has been really helpful for me. I really recommend to take a look to this video for everyone who has no idea of what he is doing. Hope you keep doing more videos with different optimized classes recommendations like Paladin or the ones that are more complex to build. Thank you for the video!

[@Gaarafan007]

There is a reason that the half-orc's orc ferocity ability has been coined as "Orc Stupidity" in the Pathfinder community. Fight as though disabled means you only get 1 action. Pulling out a potion is 1 action. Drinking a potion is 1 action. Doing both takes 2 actions, which orc stupidity does not allow you to do. Unless you can cast a healing spell, you're going to drop, but odds are you're in this position because there's someone smashing your face in, and they're unlikely to stand there and let you do that. Orc stupidity is for gm's to scare their players with an enemy that soaks up more damage than they should and can still attack before falling over dead.

[@darkfireslide]

Admittedly, in Kingmaker you can still act normally.

[@PaddyyYY]

Do you still benefit from party skills during throne room meetings? For me it always looked like when there is noone in your party, the MC relies on his own skills. So a low int dwarf with low persuasion, knowledge and lore will fail a lot of "baron" rolls.

[@zandilar630]

FYI, if you hover your cursor over the skill check in the dialogue, it'll tell you which character it's using. For barony throne room stuff it's always the MC. So if you've got low persuasion, knowledge or other skill, you're going to fail the roll (ie: you're pretty much screwed).

[@Noogi302]

I think it bares stating that you are cut off from other characters skills at key points in the game. You cant rely on strength that isnt your own.

[@MrKurtank]

This has been super-useful, man! You're a +4 item of added enjoyment!! Thank you very much.

[@Thermalfusi0n]

Thanks for your guides darkfire. You made this game 10 times more enjoyable for me with your comprehensive videos. :)

[@Mihawk1848]

Ur vid helps a lot for newbs to pthfinder, like me. I learnt alot from it. Who cares about the min maxing thing, what i care is how to survive the game in highest difficulties possible with whatever best builts i can get. Thank you.

[@swampy128]

Only 7 minutes in and the reason my barbarian build feels underwhelming is explained thank you man

[@_vinterthorn]

That's the distinction between a 'build' and a 'character' you're feeling. You're probably playing a character that comes with both flaws and advantages - people talking about builds, OTOH, are, from my perspective as a rpg'er of almost 30 years, those that care less for flavour and immersion and more for quick to instant gratification in gaming. Mind though, that's a very subjective matter and as such a matter of discussion ever since Gary Gygax et al. gave us D&D.

[@auldcrow1461]

The difficulty is great, it's been a while since I've had my arse handed to me by a game

[@LordOfTec]

lol

[@MurseAndrew]

I get that it is in the context of the CRPG version of Kingmaker, but to hear Perception, which is the most rolled skill in the entire tabletop game, called not useful when it comes to racial bonuses, blows my mind. A half elf rogue with skill focus perception will basically never miss seeing... well anything. Also nice for a knife master who lose out on the 1/2 level perception bonus.

[@johnirish03]

Aw man thank you so much - as a total PF newb, this was hugely helpful for getting my head around the system. Downside: now I gotta reroll my terribly optimized party....

[@karimsonsafehold9233]

Respec with mod

I so join you on the charisma being a waste on a class that doesn't need it. I often build my characters with roleplay in mind but in video games (baldur's gate, neverwinter nights, etc) I try to justify taking charisma by using a class that needs it or I don't use it at all. I started playing kingmaker this month for the first time. I made a druid feyspeaker, so charisma all the way. Well most of my friends in my group have high charisma and high persuasion so I can't stop myself from feeling that I wasted this. I am sure that I will be able to change later (I don't know, I am still discovering the story) but for now, all those guys have high charisma and high persuasion, and of course high wisdom and high perception, which I upped with a feat because I thought "since my druid has less wisdom, maybe it's important to still have perception, right?" Right?

[@Akymma]

From a long long time D&D player: Pathfinder character build sistem is almost identical (with few exceptions) to the D&D 3.5 ed. So never ever dump INT for any reason (unless you don't want your character to have skills or feats) Warriors need INT aswell btw for some key feats like Combat Expert. which is one of the best warrior feats (will allow your build flexibility and on high levels you're gonna have it active almost all the time). Also the character you're gonna build is gonna be the main focus of the story so putting some points into CHA wouldn't be a bad idea (or at least not have the bonus negative) just so you have it easer to interact with your companions. But for a generic warrior CHA and WIS are dump stats yeah. Just pointing out a few things.

[@Akymma]

Ok quick guide I see you have literally no idea: STR bonus to damange AND bonus to hit, also adds carry weight and you can use it with intimidation with the right feats. Put points at your discretion but I wouldn't go down to lower than 9 or higher than 17. DEX: Bonus to hit with RANGED weapons and bonus to AC (I would keep this stat at 13 unless I'm building a ranger or a rogue). Again put points at your discretion but I wouldn't go lower than 13 or higher than 15 (unless you're a ranger or rogue or another class that needs high DEX) ALSO: armors have a certain max DEX bonus they allow so having more dex is useless for heavy armor classes and medium classes. CON: keep it at 14 you're rarely gonna need more than that. INT: 13 is the bare minimum you should have. 14 is usualy better. WIS: unless you're a cleric or a monk you shouldn't worry about this stat, it might be nice to have that extra bost to will at the beginning but it's gonna end up no being significant unless you're playing a class that has high will saves as a base. CHA: Bards, sorc, pal and clerics needs this skill (mostly bards and sorc); also at high lvls you're gonna regret not having high UMD (use magic device). NOW why you don't want par numbers in the stats? Well because the game throw you stat points at key lvl's and you'll be able to get magic gear later on that boosts stats and the way the stats work is that they give you +1 for every 2. So putting par points into them is actually waisting points that you could put into something else like your main stat. One more thing: It is DANGEROUS to dump a stat to it's minimum value cause if an enemy manages to deal damange to that stat (which btw happens very often at all lvls) you're most probably gonna be screwed. You can lose consciousness, become unable to move or even die. Hope this helps.

[@matingly23]

Some very good info, thanks. I've never had a game it has taken me so long to get playing as there are so many choices, and I also realized you can make all 6 party members. The only things I still worry about are planning out the feats beforehand - in some cases you need certain stats or skills to be above a threshold to qualify for the feat.

[@blshouse]

Reduce person is only usable on friendly characters in this game; it is a net buff for Dex based characters, especially rogues where their weapon damage is incidental compared to their sneak attack damage.

[@Baraz_Red]

17 or 19 in an Ability (attributes) is good at level 1, in the sense that you gain ability points at level 4, 8, etc. Anyhow, there are many options... (including Weapon Finesse that uses Dex). BUT *I fully agree that AC is really important.* Experienced players rarely have over 14 Con., which is telling. nb: When role-playing on a table, having low Charisma means you should try to act accordingly. It can be a conceptual choice in this video game, but you are right that your companions can do the Persuasion (I think). From what I have seen, the game is very combat focused, so your video will help many.

[@ADT1995]

I built my first character based off my TT Pathfinder 1e character (although not a carbon copy, partially because of rules changes in the conversion from TT to CRPG and partially because we rolled for stats instead of using a point buy), so my character has a much higher charisma than she should. Because well in tabletop play it's not always the most persuasive or the most intimidating character making the check... And also I like roleplaying (and combat, they aren't mutually exclusive) so I tend to make builds which are competent, but not necessarily optimized, because I very well might have a decent cha and 7 ranks in diplomacy as a fighter, I might want to have a good (well passable) knowledge (dungeoneering) skill, and a few ranks in disable device just in case our rogue is not in a position to do it or is really low on HP. Still my kingmaker character was not a carbon copy, so in the CRPG version she's more combat focused and less versatile. Also in TT games you have a DM to adjust encounters, the CRPG is going to assume you built your character primarily for combat prowess and secondarily also for combat, which isn't a bad thing necessarily, but definitely something to consider

[@ADT1995]

For my first fighter (I played TT but this was my first character in kingmaker) I had my ability scores as 17, 15, 12, 10, 10? 14 (I can't remember if wisdom was a 10 or a 12, hence the question mark) I don't recommend new players go with a 12 constitution, that's what I did, like to drop constitution to the lowest level I can get away with. I wouldn't recommend putting your constitution above 14 if you are trying to be optimal, though I don't recommend necessarily doing what I tend to do and have a max of 12 as a frontliner and a 7 or 8 if I'm not in the frontline, depending on how well my class can disengage. I should have had higher wisdom than charisma for truly being optimal, but I was basing this character off of my actual tabletop character. Also I completely agree with you on min-maxing vs optimizing, min-maxing (which I've always called power gaming) where someone is intentionally trying to break the game and to feel like they beat the DM has always been one of my pet peeves... But equally annoying and game breaking is the guy who is making a character who is not competent. You don't have to take the absolute optimal choice at every level, but build a character who contributes to the party.

[@michaelhand4246]

I now have 3 hours /played in P:KM and I haven't left character creation. Finished the whole video. Excellent advice for a newbie like me coming from BG/IWD/Pillars/NWN

[@mage0killer]

Wish I had guides like this when I was 10 trying to get through "The temple of Elemental Evil"...

[@Soonzuh]

You had gamefaqs-dot-com back then and it was far better than 99% of the guides on youtube. How often do you see "ahh... mmm... very-very great" in a written guide? The video aspect of YT guides is great but it's wasted without a solid, well thought out script.

[@DefiedFaith]

I found this video incredibly helpful. Thank you.

[@notannpc8575]

bro i just want to say great video, i learned alot, i started to play now and i was swiming in the dark abism, with this tabletop rules, i played Pillars of Eternity (and this is nothing compared to it, even though they share some rules) but seeing ure guid with the stats spreads, and feats helped me alot. Ty so much, and dont ,mind plebs saying ure "minmaxing" bla bla... great job :)

[@420skimmilk]

This video is all over the place, like a rough draft. Had you thought out what you wanted to do and scripted this it would make sense and be less than half the length.

[@LordOfTec]

where is your video?

[@420skimmilk]

I don't make videos, do you have a problem with criticism and feedback?

[@LordOfTec]

LOL.... dont be silly.

[@ezioc.1998]

I made it concise in my comment.

[@Soonzuh]

@420skimmilk Thank you and thanks to all the people who gave a thumbs up to your comment. "Guides" like this where the creator rambles aimlessly are all too common. There is no respect for the viewers time investment.

[@infiniteSlinky]

Great presentation for someone new to DnD Type RPGs.

[@joshuawhere]

Hey, just thought I'd say that I found your video helpful; it's useful to know what the best paths are for characters. I think my idea of min/maxing is pretty much the same as your idea of optimizing, but I don't see anything wrong with it as long as you're still having fun, and of course I can decide the extent to which I want to use your ideas or not.

[@K4g4m1]

You did a good job and I enjoyed it.

[@Dakk69]

Great video even 3 years on. Cheers

[@darkfireslide]

Thanks man!

[@MrBradius123]

thank you, this helps. this game is truly the grand kiddy of BG1 &2

[@brothermutant7370]

I love this game so far. Started my video early this morning. First "take" I recorded for 3 hours. lol I redid it and got it down to under an hour and a half. This got me through character creation AND a decent way into the tutorial. Things people who don't play this game, or read up on FEATS, will always have a harder time than people who do read up on the rules. Take Linzi (I think I spelled that right) and her LAME crossbow skills on Normal and up difficulty. Not having Point Blank Shot hurts; not having Precise Shot is down right crippling. That -4 To Hit when firing into a target in melee screws over the harder difficulty Let's Plays. Her missing was brutal in Coh's run early on. EXPECT to save scum a bit, even if you are familiar with the game. RNG is real and it is brutal sometimes. I don't mind it. It's only a real problem if I haven't saved lately. Great "basics" video man.

[@LordMidichlorian]

I feel the need to make a gif with the scene of the Empire Strikes Back when the Millenium Falcon's hyperdrive doesn't work and Lando screams "It's not my fault!" but changing the line to "It's not min-maxing, it's optimizing!". :P Nice guide. I made my character already, without optimizing but by RP decisions (obviously with a bit of thought not to sacrifice too much eficiency) and it's going well. I don't agree with the protests of the game being too hard; I do love it because I found one example in which I'm sure people are frothing in rage because your 4 man party is against more than 20 enemies, but where the key is thinking in character, with the strategical considerations someone would make with in universe knowledge and not based on mechanics. You go with that and it's actually a rather easy fight. It's actually a timed your four party members against one tough guy. If anything the issue there is not difficulty, but that maybe the room is enough telling of what it is and the key guy is quite far from the entrance, so it's too unlikely you can actually think the solution as you open the door. I don't think there being a door is enough, unless there's some piece of lore about the programming language (avoiding spoilers :P) species in Pathfinder that I don't know (this game is the first pathfinder thing I get my hands in, so I don't really know specifics about races and such, though I assume FORTRAN is similar to Forgotten Realms).

[@scaramantis558]

Wish to see this video before I started out. Nice summary. Thanks

[@kelthamoniceheart6826]

gz on u for giving your time to make a video that long and helpfull to new and old players...well done friend

[@chrisdunn2709]

Glad to see you back and making videos

[@brianjohnson4730]

Thanks for this! Ive done the BG games but never any tabletop and never pathfinder so I have had a lot of struggles early esp w feats and other small areas! This cleared up a lot, I had resigned my current playthrough to just using a premade which was working but obv prefer to make my own and I feel better about that now.

[@CorrelationComposite]

What you're describing is exactly min-maxing. I don't understand the stigma against it anyway. Since when is playing your character to the best of it's ability a bad thing?

[@jayvis123111]

a agree that it's the definition of min-maxing, and in a video game there's literally nothing wrong with it. It's that when you sit down at a table and summon some fae and turn the party into t-rexes with a 4rd level spell. There's a problem, when you as a player are the only person making relevant decisions does min-maxing ever negatively effect gameplay. and is also where the stigma comes from.

[@lordfaladar6261]

Min-maxing is a description of players who aren't there to paly a game but to try to break it. that's min-max. Conan is a brute not a scholar (18 int) a barbarian not a bard (18 charisma) most that min-max ( in a actual table top RPG) try just that. as for playing to its best ability that's great but when is all your ability's your best?

[@Aggnog]

@@lordfaladar6261 Min/maxing means minimizing the stats that benefit you less (min) and maximizing the stats that benefit you most (max). Its not a complicated concept and I don't see why you need to transform it into some sort of social construct.

[@Krieghandt]

It depends on the game. D&D style games have limitations that allow min-maxing to be not detrimental. The Hero system allows 1 charisma, 1 con, et al. So you have a character that blows through content designed for them, and absolutely fails on any other content. So they quickly become unplayable.

[@joshuawhere]

Well, not to say that this perspective necessarily makes sense when we're looking at a computer game rather than an actual role playing game with a dungeon master where you can really be creative about how you respond to your environment, but the stigma comes from the fact that this is supposed to be a role playing game in the literal sense of playing a role, or a character who in theory resembles an actual person rather than a bunch of statistics. Min-maxing doesn't start with the question, "what kind of person do I want this character to be?" It starts with the question "how do I win every confrontation I encounter?"

[@vuxigeck5281]

My notifications have failed me, but my gut hasn't.

[@torranlegrand3094]

Thank you for this video, helped me understand pathfinder allot

[@kvothe5824]

Thank you for this. I've actually never played a game like this before so you've helped a lot

[@Trifler500]

If you play any of the AD&D games, you'll see the same thing, since Pathfinder is based on AD&D.

[@Aturnadagar]

Valerie is not a dumb build, Her stats are just not for a typical fighter, she is build to put fear enemies with intimidate. I would not spoil her story, but building her with dazzling display and "shatter's" will get her to do alot of damage without the need of too much str(AP).

[@oldsoul3539]

Yes.. that is minmaxing.. the reasons you gave are why minmaxers like to minmax. If you look at the other side of the coin minmaxing is saying "I want to give my character 70 IQ and complete social ineptness so he can hit things a bit harder".

[@nostrtoastr]

Fighters with 13 int get pretty strong feats that they otherwise can't get

[@dkim0001]

Hate to break it to you but having dump stats to max your damage is min-maxing

[@darkfireslide]

Maybe in your world. Truth be told, even a Fighter that dumps everything except his physical stats is going to be outshined by a Wizard that doesn't dump stats. For martials this kind of optimization makes them much more viable and useful; otherwise they're kind of deadweight, unless... they get buffed like crazy by arcane and divine casters, which doesn't make the class good, it just means they're a vessel for buffing.

[@exu7325]

Why does it matter if they get outshined by other classes that doesn't dump stats? Dumping some stats to maximize other stats *is* min-maxing.

[@nickwilliams8302]

Dude, you're splitting hairs. Attribute optimisation _is_ min-maxing. Own it; there's nothing wrong with min-maxing. End min-maxing shame!

[@jayvis123111]

dumping is synonymous with minimizing and maxing a stat is what it is. When people complain about min-maxing they're not talking about having a +1 to hit and damage they're talking about turning the 7th level party into t-rexes by using sna to summon some fae to cast polymorph. They are the same word. But mean very different things.

[@12HitCombo]

I get the feeling you don't know what min-maxing is. Min-Maxing stands for Minimizing-Maximizing, the act of minimizing unwanted attributes in order to Maximize desired attributes. That is literally what you were doing. I get it, min-maxing has a stigma attached to it so you don't want to think you are min-maxing, but sorry, you are min-maxing literally by the definition of the phrase. But there's nothing wrong with min-maxing, the thing people have a problem with is you repeatedly claiming you aren't when you clearly are.

[@Reddotzebra]

I think (This is just because of something I discovered while building my main character, which then made me scrap that character and re-build it) that armor stops you from being able to cast spells if you're an Echlesitheurge. Because I tried gaming the system to get the benefits of two domains *and* then pick armor proficiency feats to get my armor as well, and that greyed out all my spells. As I said, this is only something I saw with a level 1 character that I then immediately scrapped and re-rolled (My stat spread sucks by the way, since I had no idea I needed charisma to get bonus channeling, my cleric is pretty much a buff wagon that obliterates things with lightning and summoned undead, I picked the plant and animal domains, so I also have a boon companion as a flanking beast... =p)

[@derrickbonsell]

If you're not trying to make a fighter that uses trip, that +2 from going from 16 to 20 strength might be more than worth the points you need to spend to get there. From 16 to 18 takes 7 points, then the stat bonus. You do get that many points if you dump a stat but is it always worth it? I'm really not sure.

[@Reddotzebra]

After looking at the rogue I actually noticed something, I don't know if it's a tool tip error or if they changed the class feature for this game, but trapfinding doesn't actually give you a bonus to disabling traps, it just gives you a bonus to the perception roll to find them. Still good, but not *as* good as it seems to be in the pen and paper game where you get the half-class-level buff to both. Because of this the knife master archetype may be better for a starting character since it trades that feature for a massive buff to close combat sneak attacks. I dunno, it seems to me the whole point of that class is to run up to an enemy and either open from stealth or just stand next to the party tank and fire off sneak attacks like a machinegun.

[@i.t.2238]

Ayy welcome back! :)

[@darkfireslide]

Thank you!

[@jmicjm]

Dazzling display into shatter defenses is a great feat tree so a charismatic fighter can actually make use of that to set up shatter defenses, far better to debuff tons of enemies than get a charge attack off late game.

[@Desheep]

Ignore the pathetic youtube pedants. This is a great video for beginners. Only thing I'd suggest for this (and any long video) is adding a contents page of shortcuts to your description section.

[@Ricard1807o]

Really helpful content ^^ I'm pretty hyped to play this game but not sure whether to wait until more patches come out and for it to be on sale. Loved the older crpgs and the concept of the table top itself.

[@ezioc.1998]

Essential Feats: Improved Critical, Endurance, Weapon Focus, & Finese (if dual wielder). Abilities=Crowd Control.

[@WhyDoBabiesStareAtMe]

Improved critical with Dwarven waraxe, rapier or dagger is just ridiculous. At least, that was the case in 3.5 D&D (which Pathfinder is based off).

[@scoleman58]

Great info exactly what I was looking for, not new to DnD but new to pathfinder I wanted to know how the stats work when building characters. Worst is having to reload because you messed up from creation!

[@5353Jumper]

For abilities I feel it is fairly easy to get a character to level 4 in this game where you get +1 to some ability. So I have been leaving one important ability on an odd number with the plan to up it to the next even number at level 4. Example make a 17 strength fighter, who will have that sweet 18 at 4th level.

[@lillian7525]

You can start with a 17, but towards the endgame there should be items called Tomes or Manuals that can increase a stat by up to +5. If you put all level-up boosts into your best stat then you can end at a 32 or 34 (depending on if you start with an 18 or a 20), but starting with a 17 means you'll cap out at a 30. I personally wouldn't start with a 17 on any class that isn't Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger - they have abilities that more than make up for the lost points, but on other classes you really want as high an attack bonus or casting modifier as possible.

[@garyschwartz5315]

Really wonderful video. Very informative and comprehensive

[@yoshi04cgn]

Shouldn't a Paladin use Charisma more than any class? Interacting with NPCs can be important normally

[@ToTheNines87368]

“He’s a human fighter who’s also as dumb as a brick” lol I appreciate this video, it’s very helpful, but I just hate how having to play optimally gets in the way of how I want my character to be, aka roleplay.

[@darkfireslide]

Well, you can build 13 Intelligence and get Combat Expertise as well as Disarm/Trip to make a Fighter who is smart rather than using brute force. This is just an example character.

[@mikeclarke3990]

There are so many feats my head hurts looking at them

[@nergalsmom]

Great video mate, this really inspired me to give this game a go.

[@jakefrost7404]

Seems a bit odd that Tieflings were not part of the race roster to compliment Aasimar, but that could possibly have more to do with the demographics of the narrative and culture that's present there. How much have you played this game so far? I played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights back in the day, and I loved their stories. How does the story in Kingmaker compare, is it any good?

[@darkfireslide]

I think Tieflings were excluded due to time constraints. The story is very grounded in reality, at least at first, and while it's not the best of the best, the characters are likeable with likeable motivations and you really get the sense that your forging your own path through a dangerous world.

[@MrBradius123]

I am loving the game, so far, even though its rough and bugtastic. It truly is spiritually the follow up to BG2. forget poe this is it.

[@michaelgrafe7756]

thank you so much for all the help now i finally understand what i have done wrong in all those years playing IWD2 and now this^^ 3rd DnD Rules arent confusing me anymore^^

[@argyrispouggouras3378]

10:20 That is the problem with this ruleset. You are not "allowed" to play a character you like - you have to play the character as the designers want you to play them. It's an old system and many games steer away form this philosphy, for the better imho. That said, the game is realy great overall and accepting this ruleset is a fairly small price to pay for the enjoyment you'll get. But, "right" or "wrong" build, be preparaed for frustrating moments (because of its core mechanics)!

[@Banner1986]

Pretty sure the game takes only YOUR stats into account for conversations with NPCs - for instance, any alignment check requires your characters alignment. There are various times where your character is completely alone in your capital (or other towns etc) and theres a stat check during a conversation... that's ONLY your characters stats as theres no party to base it on. This is more a lesson in min/max than making sure you have a reasonable chance at passing most checks in those scenarios (imo). Great video for dnd beginners though, and I applaud your efforts!

[@goolabbolshevish1t651]

Persuasion is actually quite good for melee classes as you can put one point in the rouge subclass of thug which causes all your critical hits to do an aoe fear which uses persuasion on its check. This lets you toss out allot of control passively which reduces incoming damage.

[@mikfhan]

I think also there's a feat that lets you use STR for Intimidate checks - hopefully this would also work for the Thug fear (not sure though). Min-Maxing certainly is needed (just beware the increasing point buy costs) for harder difficulties if you don't spam autopause or use turnbased combatmod. Though it's only an insult for pen and paper or online RP servers, where you're supposed to act out ability and skill scores. Roleplaying a dummy or ladies' man is difficult for basement nerds like us :P

[@SenorMoody]

Thanks for this vid. I quit and uninstalled this game twice before... But i decided to give it a third and final try, hopefully this will help.

[@FirstnameLastname-gy2ci]

Thank you for the video, learned a lot

[@lioney4482]

I watched the whole video, that's a testament to how amazing your guide is, thank you.

[@matingly23]

You can build a clumsy fighter, but he won't be able to be a Stalwart Defender. Dex 13 is needed for Dodge, so at the least it has to be a 13.