Patreon and Apple threaten creators' livelihood

*A change Patreon is planning to its subscription options in response to Apple iOS App Store requirements threatens the livelihood of some content creators.
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[@theDMLair]

Contact Patreon Here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

[@MarinaOlsgaard]

Try Ko-fi. It's a small flat fee permonth.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Great video, Luke. 8:18. Because APPL has more money and will crush them in court. (Full disclosure: I own stock in APPL, Google, and Amazon.) They are monopolies and despite recent rulings against them, the appeals process will take YEARS. For the record, I stand with Patreon creators. I'd make a video, but I'm in Busan, Korea right now. --Professor DM, Dungeoncraft.

[@iron_rush_theater1246]

Resist the subscription model. You don't need an APP - you need a website with billing/purchase options. Note the Spotify model.

[@Subject_Keter]

I saw some ultra snoog proud they buy other mooks stuff for their TTRPG stuff, too many people who dont even check the second option but just toss off the Wallet.

[@theDMLair]

Yes, exactly. But that doesn't solve the issue of Pay-Per-Content creators losing that method of billing.

[@morpheus7347]

Didn‘t even know a patron app exists. Why the hell would I need one?

[@lagautmd]

Me, too. I was wondering a bout the hoopla. then, I remembered that there are tons of people who never use a computer at all.

[@chrisantzaras]

Yeah, I didn't know there was an app either. I'm on my pc typing this message and watching videos and supporting people on patreon. PC forever, baby!

[@darrinwarner4046]

Bernth, an guitar lesson patreon guy has over 16 000 members at $5, $15, $20, $50 per membership depending on what they want. He makes a minimum $82,000 per month minimum before fees. It's a real job dude

[@iron_rush_theater1246]

The enshittification continues

[@claytongriffin3558]

If people would stop using Apple products, this would all go away, lol. I've never owned an Apple product and have never had any issues using their competitor's goods.

[@briandixon9140]

Glad I have an Android phone, and only use KS/Patron via PC

[@agilemonk6305]

Thank you, Luke, for doing this very important public service. Everyone needs to hear this that his other a Patreon creator or a Patreon customer. Our money should be going to the creators not just the apple sweet shops.

[@ForgottenAdventures]

Great video Luke! Thanks for spreading the message, it's really important this gets out and discussed in public.

[@aery.]

Thank you for making this video. Let’s make it louder 👏🙌

[@fhuber7507]

Apple has been predatory since the early 1980s... I have refused to use anything by Apple since they orphaned the IIc while they were still under warranty.

[@fhuber7507]

Find another subscription management company to delete Patreon and Apple.

[@dylancox631]

Emailed and shared. This is ridiculous. I get not joining the lawsuit, thats a ton of money to do. But like you said, make it downloaded from a site. No one cares where the app comes from.

[@JesseSteinfort]

My experience with Pateon customer service is that they don't understand their own platform to be able to solve a techinical issue. They basically shrugged when I said that one of my creator subscriptions stopped working (listed but wouldnt take my money). I guess they don't care about customers.

[@zachmoeller1889]

Thank you for covering this. I am a full-time illustrator who relies on Patreon as my primary income source for the TTRPG maps I release on a per-creation basis. I'm likely to lose around half of my earnings from this platform if these changes go through, and am not eager to increase my prices to accommodate.

[@Hrafnskald]

Kindle has done the same thing as Spotify with iOS and Android apps.

[@codicook2262]

Thanks for the info Luke. Emailing patreon now.

[@tomcartosmaps]

Great video Luke, thanks for highlighting this! Patreon are really trying to obfuscate it from patrons, pushing the PR nightmare onto the creators to deal with, despite us having no say in the decision.

[@PrintInkling]

Thank you SO much for using your platform to stand up for indie makers! We use First of Month billing to send hand-printed cloth TTRPG maps to our Patrons every month -- losing this billing structure is devastating to our art form and our only truly consistent monthly income (we make apparel, too, but less frequent releases). The Pay Per Design digital map makers you mentioned are in an even scarier position right now. We have avoided Apple and their products all of our lives - they are an awful company with abhorrent practices, and Patreon's decision to side with them over makers is an incredible betrayal. Public support for indie makers is SO important. Perhaps now more than ever. Thank you to EVERYONE who emails, posts, and rages on our behalf. You mean so much!

[@EatAnOctorok]

Also encourage creators to seek out similar platforms. I'm not sure how many have a tier system, but there's definitely ones that offer something to the consumer for supporting the creator.

[@dirtywhitellama]

Patreon isn't going to do anything to make the app less desirable, every freaking email I get has a big "view in app" button I have to be careful not to click. Plus the majority of their chat features are app only. I hate apps for regular websites though and have not and never intend to use it. I really don't understand why the patreon billing would ever have gone through the app store at all though, that just seems nonsensical. They already have perfectly good billing on their website completely independently. I also really prefer monthly subscriptions so they all come out at the same time instead of piecemeal, and afaik that's more profit for them when it comes to card processing fees too, so it's very weird. Is there an alternative to patreon if they're refusing to make a better choice? I get that a lot of creators aren't going to have bandwidth to operate on multiple platforms, but I'd be happy to follow any that do to a more creator-friendly platform if one exists.

[@dirtywhitellama]

Also, I don't agree with the idea of removing the per-creation support option, but maybe one alternative for creators who currently operate that way and want to continue using patreon would be to introduce a tier structure that basically reflects the way the per creation would work - the price for one creation would get you a monthly tier with access to the first one, a monthly tier at twice the price would get you access to the first two, and so on. I guess that may not work as well for sporadic creation cadences where sometimes a creator makes 5 things and sometimes they make 0 though.

[@codicook2262]

IF Anyone would like a template for framing their own feedback to Patreon feel free to use this (but please make it at least slightly customized lol): Recently Apple has been implementing a higher charge to applications on their store by pushing apps to use Apple's in app purchasing system. This has been cited as a reason that Patreon intends to switch from pay-per-creation options to subscription only as well as what will result in a very sizable loss of revenue for creators using Patreon's platform. It would have shown Patreon's care for the customer (and creator) to have at least been transparent and taken a simple poll of "would you like to keep your purchasing options, or switched to subscription only" OR "would you be willing to accept app changes to avoid this sudden extra overhead from Apple?" I am not typically someone that would get involved in this but I can not shake it this time. I DO NOT support this change. I know that there are ways to get around the app store's limitations such as making the app itself "read-only" as spotify has allowing the app listing in the store to be only a link to subscribe in a browser of elsewhere. IT IS NOT okay for the tremendous amount of creators now reliant on Patreon as income to have their livelihood jeopardized in this manner. Also as far as i can tell, IT IS NOT ok to capitulate to a bully even one as large and powerful as Apple it will only lead to Apple taking more from Patreon (and others) in the future. Your consideration is appreciated.

[@this_epic_name]

I honestly don't understand the "pay per creation" model. It seems foolish to agree to pay for things sight unseen.

[@josir1994]

I believe it has to do with things that aren't compatible with monthly payments

[@BuckFu]

30% is ridiculous! They don’t even make the content that they are gouging on. They are trying to increase revenue by changing a guideline because they aren’t selling enough of their own products.

[@Metalandstuff464]

@@BuckFu its shareholder and executive culture. They want a minimum of 10% year over year growth in profits. Eventually the market flattens out but they still want their 10%. They scream and shout then we get hit with increased prices

[@SrenHolm-k3o]

As long as multiple businesses are competing, the free market is working. When an area of business only has 1 company, the free market becomes a tyrannical nightmare. Cyberpunk dystopia is looking increasingly like reality with each passing year.

[@johnathanrooley8694]

Well, good luck. Kickstarter will be next.

[@DanSolo41]

I only just started using it recently, not paying anything to anyone, and didn't even know there were other payment options.

[@trynda1701]

I LOVE the DM Lair vidros. 👍👍👍👍😎😎😎😎 Good for Luke pointing out this latest development affecting KZbin and probably other platform creators.

[@orokusaki1243]

This video topic would make a *GREAT* campaign setting!! Early-cyberpunk dystopia - the origin story!

[@Thraxis]

i hate having to use apps

[@Mr_GoR_]

Redirect any Pay Per Creation creator listing from the app to browser.

[@Calebgoblin]

If you're all ready to follow this righteous path to radicalization, look up Louis Rossman

[@henriquesousa6089]

@@Calebgoblin Seconded. Guy been truly advocating for consumer rights.

[@CountAdolfo]

Thanks, Luke, for bringing this up and out... to the forefront. This is really not cool for Patreon to do

[@Teraclon]

So this is 2024's OGL-situation...?

[@theDMLair]

For some creators, yes, this is probably much worse than the OGL.

[@jierdareisa4313]

I love ALL the DM Lair videos!!!! ❤

[@Copper9d6]

Can't we just use the Patreon website and not the app???

[@theDMLair]

Yes, yes you can!

[@PrintInkling]

To avoid the 30% charge, yes, but the problem extends deeper. Patreon is ALSO eliminating the way creators are allowed to bill -- the makers who use Pay Per Creator or First of Month billing will not be able to do so anymore, and are being forced into a Join Date - Join Date monthly billing model. For many of us, this makes NO sense as a payment model, and is going to devastate a lot of creators.

[@Subject_Keter]

​@@PrintInkling Considering how many potential money they are "losing" t makes sense why Pdubs would try to pull on thr cord before realizing it attached to their neck. 😂

[@matthewallison5219]

This is the way. Never buy anything digital through a mobile app if there's another path to do so.

[@Subject_Keter]

​@@matthewallison5219 Buy it Physical or Transcribe it on some paper. Jobbers acting H o m e l e s s "Wah, i like it but i am too weak to change it wah" 😂

[@JW_the_DM]

Thank God i use Android and PCs. Thank you Luke. Some emails are definitely going out today.

[@DestroyerMariko]

THIS!!! Patreon just gets shadier and shadier and it makes no sense! Even if they want more money, they're not gonna get it if we all get fed up and leave!

[@ItsZebulon]

And I was finally getting around to launching the Patreon I always wanted this year...

[@TheGenericavatar]

Patreon creators can also diversify to Patreon's competitors (which Patreon's own previous changes in policy created).

[@aervia]

Thank you for making this video. The only way we stand a chance at reversing course is getting loud about what's going on behind the scenes. Patreon is not the victim here - its creators are, and the way they've handled this within their own discord server says a lot of how they regard the people that depend on them.

[@odinulveson9101]

Great heads up! Im a patreon for several. This is dire. Gotta keep honest jovial, informative and mostly unbiased creators financially alive folks! But this is just awesome news for big fatstack corporations with their strings into KZbin. Now they truly can kill of nasty channels that are an annoyance and even threat to them. Paizo, WotC/ Hasbro, Games Workshop have dirt under their nails and skeletons in their closet. Whats not better for mighty corpos than Patreon disappearing as a service and/ or shutting down such annoying creators, their most reliable source of income thanks to Patreon? Corpos and ultra capitalists dont CARE about your culture wars and political side. They play ALL sides as long as the cash flows and they can get away with it and have made sure those with dirt+fact proof critic and evidence against them stays dead. Preferrably also hinder any Patreon esque replacment service to make sure it stays that way. Creators are mere... tools, spreaders of their products, influencers. This counts for all firms in general of course

[@WestfaliaStuff]

I am running 2 Patreon pages for miniatures (Schwarzburg for 3D and Cabinet of Curiosities for hand-sculpted) and I will probably close them both and shift things to my homepage instead. Pretty sure I will lose some serious backing, but I am not playing Patreon's game and feed their shareholders.

[@PrintInkling]

I think we're going to switch to our website, too. It'll be an adjustment and I'm laying out how to make it a better experience for our Patrons as opposed to just a make-do alternative, but we've got some awesome folks and I think many will keep supporting us. Wishing you luck with the process

[@WestfaliaStuff]

@@PrintInkling Same to you my friend. My website provider has a subscription model built in, so I will try and slowly build it up while Patreon goes to S*.

[@JaggerKilmane]

One Book Shelf charges creators between 30-35% on every sale. It's par the course for those of us producing on that platform.

[@ljmiller96]

If you're talking about DTRPG they also do printing, warehousing, and fulfillment. 35% is much fairer if they actually print and ship the books (and warehouse those that aren't POD).

[@gatobob]

very informative and well spoken breakdown!

[@TheSavageGoose]

I don't know why they are just submitting to Apple. If I was an app creator 1. I would put on Apple if they wanted to take that much of a cut, but 2. I would just not allow supporting through the app and just launch a web browser go do it instead or something. Maybe that isn't allowed, but that is just too much of a percentage. As for the push to subscription billing, that is a cost saving move. I have worked for a few credit card processing companies. Small companies that no one has heard of. You mentioned the processing fee of 2.5%. That is actually a really good rate. The companies I worked for did a 4%. Some of that is going to the credit card company itself (Visa), some of it is going to companies like FirstData, some of it is going to the banks to pay their operating cost for those transcations, and then part of it goes to the processing companies. Think someone like Stripe, Toast, etc. If they can get everyone on a subscription model, they have more consistent revenue on their side and consistent batch transactions, which will mean less cost to them for those processing fees. This all makes me wonder if this will push some KZbin Creators to use KZbin Memberships instead, and if it will push KZbin to come up with better features for their KZbin Membership options.

[@MarinaOlsgaard]

Plan b... Ko-fi

[@demonspawn2578]

@@MarinaOlsgaard Kofi doesn't support a per creation subscription model, which many creators utilize currently on Patreon.

[@MartinNelson]

@@demonspawn2578 Ko-fi calls it a 'shop' rather than per creation model. It's a different workflow, but similar results can be generated.

[@brellom]

Ko-Fi doesn't allow NSFW artists to exist like Patreon does. Which doesn't affect everyone, but it is a concern, and was mentioned in the video too, so it's on topic enough.

[@MartinNelson]

​@@brellom And this is an issue why? Patreon's 18+ policies are pretty strict and include verification of government ID in a way that doesn't work well outside of the USA. I can't really see how adult content is an issue in this discussion. If that's what people are creating...well then they need professional solutions and not solutions designed for sole traders.

[@zirconiumdiamond1416]

​​@@MartinNelson with "shop" people are only charged for the creations they decide to buy. The beauty of the "per creation" model is that creators have the backstop of a certain level of guaranteed money for a creation. It makes their income less uncertain, and it creates a sort of trade-off for supporters that, yes, they will probably occasionally pay for stuff they aren't interested in, but the creator presumably charges a lot less to compensate. For the supporter, the result is the occasional dud that averages out, for the creator, it gives them the confidence to go full-time.

[@paddysparlor]

You forgot to mention Rumble has been working its own case against KZbin and deserves the shout out and the help. Their Locals platform is a viable alternative too. Also funny, DTRPG causes 35% fees too. And for that Giant Slayer Games exists

[@Frederic_S]

Keep us updates please. I deleted the app right away. And I will get rid of my iPhone too.

[@TheNekofanatic]

Once you pay the Danegeld, you'll never be rid of the Dane.

[@SamuelDancingGallew]

Spiff Fans: "Aight', time for the power of 0.25x and yorkshire gold."

[@aaronclift]

I would suggest supporting creators directly on their websites instead of going through a middleman like Patreon.

[@theDMLair]

I agree. More of a person's money goes to the creator that way.

[@Subject_Keter]

Most people are Grade A clowns, also It on the artist for not makint that the norm. Cant condition a kid to kick people in faces and wonder ehy it not good.

[@Edshosaki]

@theDMLair, another option, maybe, is change to Ko-fi. But I don't know if they have the option to pay per creation. Any way, an Patreon exodus to Ko-Fi, or another thay I am not aware off, could make them realise that their actions are dumb.

[@zirconiumdiamond1416]

I checked Ko-fi's help and it looks like they don't support per creation. Nor does SubscribeStar (the other "big" Patreon competitor). It looks like the per creation billing model is unique to Patreon, unfortunately.

[@wargame2n3p]

Another mega corp easy cash grab. Thanks for the heads-up, and to Prof. DM too for pointing me in your direction!

[@soldierbreed]

This is exactly what Epic went to war with apple over. Crazy how many people took apples side

[@JimboSRP]

I think you're going about this the wrong way. Walk away, use something else. They can ignore, rationalise, manage and manipulate and PR-spin complaining and emails. They can't ignore revenue loss.

[@PrintInkling]

Some of us (First of Month billing) can leave the platform, but Pay Per Creation is unique to Patreon. Hell of an opportunity for some other platform to rise up, though -- considering Patreon takes 8%+ just as platform fee, there's some decent money rolling through from PPC creators.

[@lore_shards]

Patreon has been hot garbage for about 8 years now (sorry Jack Comte), It seems like there are way better options out there

[@sarahpitcher3996]

@@lore_shards what other options?

[@lore_shards]

@@sarahpitcher3996 subscribstar seems populat, locals too. I imagine you could google as well "payreon alternatives "

[@mn1215]

Patreon doesn't pay any fees to Apple and gets to keep its app on the app store. There's not much incentive to care about creators for Patreon when they get that on top of keeping subscription billing as the only choice. Patreon wins in all ways in this deal, and creators and patrons lose in all ways, too.

[@Surag1057]

Looks like the best solution is to to create more NSFW dnd content to be excluded from ios app 😂

[@heliobarbosa3525]

Easier said than done but: run from patreon, find another way. Reasoning: suggesting that is bad enough. Finding a way around it right now would work short time (allowing creators to, ideally, stay on patreon while figuring something else), but the people suggesting creators to lose half their income probably don't have your best interests at heart.

[@Darkwintre]

Are we talking OGL debacle level threat?

[@zachmoeller1889]

For some of us, yes this is nothing short of existential to our businesses, but I expect this will have a ripple effect through the TTRPG community, even for those not directly affected, in terms of pricing and availability of content.

[@theDMLair]

For some creators, yes, this might even be worse than the OGL.

[@Scorpious187]

Patreon doesn't give two flying flips about their creators. They never have.

[@Subject_Keter]

I mean why would you? Those artist are jobbers. They arent going to form the stuff thry need so it was a captive audience.

[@this_epic_name]

Whenever possible, if I find something on patreon or any other platform, I try to see if the creator has their own site. If so, I buy from there. Also, have people forgotten about the existence of laptop and desktop computers?

[@Subject_Keter]

I found a bunker full of TTRPG fans that cant write or adapt rules. So ya i think those kinda of monsters can exist.

[@MagiofAsura]

Is Ko-fi an option?

[@NemoOhd20]

Or just don't use Apple.

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Well there’s another reason for me not to have a Patreon Here I thought it was KZbin was the only bad company here. Crazy world

[@EilonwyG]

I don't use many apps, my phone isn't impressive enough to have more than one or two apps. And I hate Apple anyway. I refuse to use any of their products.

[@MechbossBoogie]

Talking about Anti-Trust while wearing a "Trust Issues" shirt. I see what you did there.

[@theDMLair]

Yep...that was an intentional choice. lol

[@Atrivion]

Another reason Apple sucks as a company and it's leaders suck as humanbeings. Overpriced stuff. Sending updates that makes phones slower just before a new launch. etc

[@orokusaki1243]

7:51 "Nucular" B. Clinton, D. Eisenhower, GW. Bush & L. Hart

[@skirwan78]

if you think spotify are the good guys you need to do some more research.

[@FreihEitner]

Let's not lay ALL the blame on Patreon. Apple are forcing themselves into a middleman position to take a cut of fees for which they provide no service.

[@Subject_Keter]

Adapt or Die, not my Fault you cant handle it.

[@KevinVideo]

I just use the website and paypal. I refuse to pay for things through the app. I heard about this nonsense, and if Patreon is not going to stand behind creators, then we creators will have to use another method. I know people aren't thrilled about it, but there are other platforms that you can get paid through, including X, and I know people who have left Patreon after it was demanded that Patreon get full access to the Cloud and Google Drive accounts to verify that none of their created content was against the ToS. That's just wrong.

[@Finding_Buffalo]

ㅋ 야스모드나 받으러 가야겠다

[@psybertao]

I don't agree with your emphasis that this is a Patreon issue. This is an Apple issue, and by extension a US issue because the rest of the world deride Apple and the pretentious people who choose to use their products.

[@angel_cheon-sa]

Having a 60% market share feels like there's still a lot of competition out there. Taking a 30% cut is the same cut that Steam and many other platforms charge. Everyone just wants to force apple to tear down the garden wall. If you don't want a walled garden, there's plenty of android phones out there to choose from. Some of us, actually signed up for the walled garden product.

[@skirwan78]

you're also ignoring that if it the "middlemen" werent' necessary (and paying them wasn't necessary) why do artists use them? Why don't they just sell subscriptions themselves. Why do apps need to be on the app store. Because they all gain a net benefit. that 30% is the same brick and mortar stores and other stores charge to put things on their shelves. Because those things take time and a compnay to create. it's a pretty ignorant view to pretend "fees" are unjustifiable when people use those platforms because they gain things from them. Find an alternative to use for artists if Patreon is that bad. Oh there isn't one? Maybe ask why not? What's stopping them from making one?

[@DietBuddah]

Not to speak ill of any of the genuine creators who use Patreon but, Patreon harbors scammers. I lost a bunch of money to an artist I commissioned through their Patreon page and Patreon has done/will do nothing about it.

[@MarinaOlsgaard]

This isn't scary at all. Use plan b people

[@zirconiumdiamond1416]

I don't think there is a plan b for "per creation" billing. None of Patreon's competitors support it, that I have been able to find.