No Easy Options for Progressive CRC Churches

[@NorthernObserver]

Proud of the CRC. Didn’t think this was possible in 2022. But your explanation made a lot of sense.

[@jimluebke3869]

Of course it's possible. All it takes is courage. That courage is a lot easier to muster, now that we know where the slippery slope leads. They're unmasked, now.

[@greenchristendom4116]

Somehow I think that Christian salvation involves something a little different than patting ourselves on the back, saying nobody's a sinner and affirming each other's feelings.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

How about you are a sinner? Did you miss that part in your self-righteousness?

[@JothamBate]

r/whoosh

[@olgakarpushina492]

@@martinzarathustra8604 how about you use the first person singular in your "you're a sinner" instead of pointing fingers? How does that sound to your hyper- righteous quasi-Christian👂?

[@martinzarathustra8604]

@@olgakarpushina492 Why? Does that absolve you of your own self-righteous hypocrisy? Do you not think God will judge with truth? I am the worst of sinners, but this is NOT about me. I freely admit my own "sin". In fact I am a worse sinner than you because I do not believe in a God that judges unjustly, unlike your Christian idol. Does that make you feel like you have won? Are you seeking to win a competition?

[@greenchristendom4116]

@@martinzarathustra8604 My point is that we all are, and the point of the Church is to tell us that and to call us to salvation in Christ.

[@alexvanwyngarden5668]

Thank you Paul. I find it interesting how we as fallen sinners want to shape God's word to how we want to live our lives, instead of shaping our lives to conform to God's word and law

[@jimluebke3869]

"They are going to lose vote after vote after vote. What then should they do?" Obviously (ideally) they would accept censure and correction, and turn back to Biblical teaching.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

What the Biblical teaching of giving all your riches to the poor?

[@stevenking6129]

You better think that through. Biblical teaching on homosexuality is ambiguous at best, but but not so Jesus’s words and the Bible’s teachings on the poor. Keep your money, wave your flag enjoy your country clubs and keep your church doors closed to those who do not measure up to your standards. I’m sure Jesus is not pleased but you feel good about yourselves, and that’s all that matters.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@stevenking6129 "Ambiguous at best"? Er, no. It's condemned specifically in both the Old and New testaments. It is part of the "sexual immorality" that Christ condemns even when He makes foods "clean". It is one of "the devil's works and ways and empty promises" that Christians reject, in new member liturgies. Church members are expected not to "identify" with a sin. I'm sure you feel good about your "inclusiveness", but the simple fact is that God teaches us that "He who loves, chastises." (Come to think of it, should we add hypocrisy to your wrongs? Seems like you believe you can chastise, but others should not.) You should accept censure, and return to Biblical teaching.

[@jakeroberts6274]

Amazing to see a denomination holding on to biblical standards. Great outcome and well presented Paul

[@john1349]

The experience in the Methodist Church has been that progressives pushing inclusion will not leave for the reasons you stated, among others. And in our case they’re also openly rebellious with no institutional recourse. Leading to conservatives bolting at the congregational level. The learning is that if discipline is not applied and they are expelled, YOU will eventually be the one leaving. One way or the other.

[@Jhuntley34]

Paul, thank you for your insights here in breaking down the acts of synod this year. We need more conversation like this as we work through all the difficult issues we face as a denomination. Continue the good work

[@jimluebke3869]

"They'll be honest about their views, it's a matter of pride" Yes. Exactly. Not gluttony. Nor avarice. Certainly not truth. And not really charity -- is it true charity to *celebrate* someone else's sin?

[@lindadunn8787]

Good question.

[@jamesirvin7799]

The dominations will be attacked with similar strategies until the message of the cross is obliterated but there will always be devout people willing to face the lions.

[@jimluebke3869]

They want to use the power of the secular, basically atheist state, to push changes in their church? Paul, weren't you speculating that Judas' betrayal was an attempt to use the Romans to force events to go his way?

[@brittybee6615]

When did Paul talk about that? If you happen to remember.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@brittybee6615 Oof, that's a lot of hours of video I'd have to review to find it. Something in the last few months? I think there's a KZbin Transcript application, if you can find it.

[@brittybee6615]

@@jimluebke3869 No one has that much time 😂. Thanks anyway.

[@Fool0f4Took]

Christian denominations can seem so steampunk!-i.e., from the outside, they appear highly sophisticated in some respects, but 200 years behind in others. And I don't mean behind in terms of some projected notion of "progress" or the like. I mean behind in terms of an apparent inability to collaborate towards clear, transparent communication. Given the huge resources of time, passion, devotion, and intelligence evident on both sides of the issue, it seems baffling not to be immediately pointed to a concise articulation of the disagreement's substance-something that was corporately developed. What are the strongest versions of the different hermeneutical choices/standards that undergird these issues (and end up defining what "biblical" means for either side)? Working toward that sort of articulation would bear far more fruit than either side "winning" an argument that seems predicated on one side being coopted by "tradition" or the other by "culture." Hopefully the CRC has such an articulation for this issue that I'm ignorant of. If so, they should evangelize other denominations in how to develop one. If not, well, no time like the present.

[@erc9468]

34:30 So within the same confessional denomination, you have "deeply divergent approaches to scripture" and divergent "visions of what Christianity and the Gospel means". These seem to be obviously true points with respect to the CRC. When you say "we will get through this", who is this *we* ? It doesn't seem like you have a single confessional denomination if what you say is true about the divergence on basic tenets between the factions. So "we should keep talking" - to accomplish what? Denominational unity? Harmony? You have protestors at your ecclesial meeting who have appropriated all of their tactics and talking points from the secular Left! There doesn't seem to be a *we* to be held onto. Maybe some loose affiliation of churches could claim to be one body with such divergence within it, but not a body which claims to hold to doctrinal confessionalism. When you say that the church uses confessions to "talk to each other", that doesn't seem quite right when it comes to intra-ecclesial disagreement. Confessions are supposed to be that which unites a body, not that which divides it. Confessions are the things that a body is *NOT* supposed to keep re-litigating and conversing about. So it seems to me that the CRC can jettison confessionalism and "keep talking to each other", or it can keep confessionalism and put these arguments to a decision which will, by definition, divide the body.

[@jessezandee9282]

Thank you for your work to help make the CRC a denomination I actually would be happy to get ordained in. I’m still catching up on the synod recordings. On another note, all one body claims to be on the side but this is not the case. I am partial proof of this being a Zoomer. On top of that, I happen to know if some reprehensible character concerns with one of their board members. But that’s for another time.

[@minavanderleest9493]

Sin is sin. If we don't condemn sin we will certainly condemn ourselves. Gods word is Gods word. We don't get to re-interpret the Bible (Gods ultimate authority and word) to excuse our sins. Too many churches (not just CRC) are getting consumed by the world. Hard times coming.

[@williamdavidwallace3904]

Our membership is in the process of being transferred to Community CRC Kitchener, On. which is an urban church. Apparently prior to covid they would have just under 1000 attending Sunday am services. Traveling there is expensive for us as we no longer have a car and use cabs but we spent almost 4 years looking for a closer option and found nothing that suited us. Theologically I am happier at the CRC than any other option that I have found. When we were attending Knox Toronto which is a PCC congregation, I would periodically look around at other options and eventually we moved to a downtown PCA church plant. At Calvin CRC Ottawa, where our membership was, I never looked around for other options.

[@williamdavidwallace3904]

At Community we have a female co-pastor. Our district elders both at Calvin and at Community are female. When we 1st joined Calvin I had some reservations about female elders and ministers but the NT mentions of Priscilla and Aquila always bothered me as did Junia. Eventually I came not just to accept female office bearers but also to positively recommend such.

[@steveagnew3385]

Thanks so much Paul for the Synod commentary. It is very interesting that many other Christian Religions are going through the same woke gender confusions as are politics, military, schools, and corporations. There is both the need for tolerance by trad Religions for the various woke gender confusions as well as tolerance by secular Religions for the free choices of trad Religions. Trad Religions in the past would simply use the evil word when faced with such dialectics and now secular Religions also use the evil word for such trad Religions. Civilization still does not have the tolerance/intolerance, but trad Religions like the CRC do have the free choice of intolerance inside the CRC and tolerance outside of the CRC. We are, after all, all sinners...

[@DonalLeader]

Very honest presentation. As a Catholic I recognise the tensions and also the likely direction of travel. Next year’s Synod May well disappoint progressives.

[@bbsmith9409]

Usually Progs are known for long term thinking and planning. Not the CRC ones, it appears, as PVK indicates. Standpoint epistemology may be the heart-tugging way that wins the day in other circles to move the window toward wokeness (the SBC) but not these wisely stubborn Dutchmen and the non-Dutch urban conservatives. An interesting dynamic is at work that is running counter to the standard woke zeitgeist.

[@kennethobrien8386]

Love you and your podcast!

[@SteveBedford]

Hi Paul. You are a good man and I appreciate you. That is all. ✌

[@lindahiemstra1035]

"win" ... Yuck. Inclusion is loving the sinner to hell. Affirmation is not loving. Rosaria Butterfield opened my eyes to biblical truths.

[@I4MWH014M]

I think one of the main reasons God put you on this earth pastor Paul is to have conversations, it is a primary stewardship and a blessing to many. May He continue to guide you in this for His glory and our good.

[@AnaBrigidaGomez]

"Madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expect the same results"

[@lindadunn8787]

Yep. Huge margins. Thank you for providing this window into the Christian Reformed Church.

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

I find it easy to empathize, but could not be farther from sympathizing with them in their quandary. Thank you Paul.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Yeah who the hell cares about other people.

[@mhernandez1345]

No sympathy for others! That's what Christ was all about

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

You guys understand the difference between empathizing and sympathizing right?

[@martinzarathustra8604]

@@fancyhitchpin8675 Why don't you explain it to me?

[@scottmcloughlin4371]

@@mhernandez1345 Have you ever read Scripture? Read the Parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22. You can read that parable for free online. "For many are invited, but few are chosen." Christians are "nice" because they recruit new Christians. Bible parables are not "nice" at all.

[@asdfgasdfgadsfgadsfg]

I'd like to see if network can provide an example of a well-adjusted gay marriage. I'll try and look out and see if they publish something. LOL the hesod project says that paul actually was preaching against effeminate men, not gay.

[@jonathansmith336]

Scripturally and politically I do believe the issues of women in ministry and the current struggles are linked. A church is to be more like. an extended family and issues of headship in the church are interrelated with marriage and the nuclear family.

[@andreasmuller5223]

Paul was talking about his Sony camera a couple of months ago. Can anyone remember the camera he's using? Thank you!

[@reformedbugman703]

I enjoy watching CRC politics more than sports games. I am not invested at all but I am emotionally engaged, cheering as Synod lands another body blow from the top rope.

[@BirdDogey1]

I'm LCMS and agree.

[@victoriasolenberger9012]

Wow, thank you for these reflections / deep dives into CRC governance and grappling with doctrine. I'm Catholic, and listening to you talk about and seeing some clips of synod is totally fascinating. I had a mental note to check out your "inevitable protestantism" video(s?) and now that's bumped higher on my interest. Really enjoyed your video on "marriage equality." I have a feeling that inevitable protestantism would be a great thing for me to think about and talk about with my circle that is mostly comprised of very committed, generally conservative Catholics. Thank you so much!

[@HiFiSmith]

Len Vanderzee is still active? He left SBCRC in like 2007. Also, are you staying in the dorms?

[@doctorisout]

I was worried that the Synod could not parse the word Converz-Zzation, with the 3 Zs.🙂

[@frankdeboer1347]

One thing you probably need to do a video or two on is how the 22 decision changes the way the CRC treats the confessions. Prior to 2022 the confessions were interpreted as being part of their historical context and were interpreted in that way. Now the interpretation of a single question and answer of the Heidelberg Catechism has so transformed our confessional interpretations that the Canons of Dort are no longer acceptable in the CRC. God's sovereignty and grace were often seen as two sides of the same coin. Now it seems that simply thinking that homosexual sex in a monogamous relationship puts us outside of the Grace of God. Our confessions no longer hold much weight in the CRC. The one line by which the CRC seems to decide in or out of the Kingdom is the line of human sexuality/homosexuality.

[@miranda4583]

My crc church that's in a city in Canada seems to be doing pretty well, while some of the rural churches are losing young people (from what I've heard) while we are gaining them. It's probably just because young people in general tend to come to the city for school, jobs, etc. This is such a difficult conversation! Probably more-so because the crc is so interconnected. My grandpa spoke adamantly for the affirming side at Synod while my pastor spoke adamantly against it. There is definitely two very divergent views on where the story of church history is heading, and history in general. As for me, I honestly don't know what to think. I see both sides so clearly that I have little patience for people who just dismiss either side. I guess that which is from God will last in the end. All we can do is do what we believe is right, and if we end up on the wrong side of history, then we can trust in God's mercy and forgiveness. I wish Jesus would just pay us a visit and tell us what to think!

[@dgbx6]

We should continue to talk to each other. Is this an example of our 'conversation'? 'Du Mez can go to work for the College of Moloch. She is well qualified.' Is this an example of what you call a 'confessional' conversation?

[@geoffrobinson]

One side needs to repent or go elsewhere. The prophets & apostles would have laid into Du Mez with harsher rhetoric.

[@dgbx6]

@@geoffrobinson So you are actually accusing her of not being Christian.

[@geoffrobinson]

@@dgbx6 I can't know with infallible certainty, but she should be excommunicated if she won't repent. Not sure who are church elders are, but they need to get on the job. I've heard enough of her to come to that conclusion. Her m.o. appears to be heretical enough to appeal to exvangelicals while not being so heretical she can't subvert the church from the inside. You should be more worried about wolves than tone policing on behalf of those undermining Christ's bride.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

"In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point." - Friedrich Nietzsche

[@ProfesserLuigi]

I think this is true for many Christians, though not all.

[@olgakarpushina492]

The problem is Nietzsche lived in his own idiosyncratic reality untouched by morality or religion.

[@mostlydead3261]

@@ProfesserLuigi I think as Ricoeur said Nietzche and his critique were more authentically Christian than the vast majority of "christians"..

[@culturalsingularity8231]

@@mostlydead3261 Interesting. I've felt that Nietzsche was closer to Jesus than Christianity was in many ways. Probably because of his individualistic stance.

[@olgakarpushina492]

@@culturalsingularity8231 wait. One needs a community, at least another person ("where two or three have gathered in my name") for Christ to be "among you". How come anyone individualistic is closer to Christ that the Body of Christ ska Christians?

[@charliecampbell6851]

Just started the video but I find those protests very bizarre. I think you said one of them happened after the meetings finished - fair enough. But the one with the masks and 'Lament' seems like a weird use of protest. Protest is meant to provoke discussion and change, yes? And the purpose of the entire gathering is already the deliberation of the topics. The folks protesting are precisely the people that protests normally wish to reach - those in the position to promote their position. Just seems weird. Like they don't fully embody that they're the important people who already have the platform and should focus instead on their theology and arguments to promote their cause.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

What theology? The Bible is hopelessly contradictory you can find whatever you want in it.

[@charliecampbell6851]

@@martinzarathustra8604 Martin, why do you watch Paul's channel?

[@martinzarathustra8604]

@@charliecampbell6851 Why shouldn't I watch Paul? Should I sit in a silo of my own political tribe and ignore anything that contradicts that? Is that what you do? I agree with Paul on many things. I feel it is a moral obligation to give Christians that are brainwashed into conservative ideology an alternative to tribalistic non-think.

[@expressionofwill5307]

@@martinzarathustra8604 you can find whatever you want in almost anything if you are motivated try hard enough. Doesn't mean you arent deluded or that there aren't far more reasonable interpretations

[@martinzarathustra8604]

@@expressionofwill5307 Yes but nothing else is claiming final arbitration over existence itself now is there? Christians think they have it all figured out. Do they?

[@matthewkilbride1669]

The problem with "minorities are conservative" argument is that they're conservative in their own ways, not conservative in the American Republican Party sense. For example, Korean CRC churches will likely be against affirming LGBT lifestyles, yet they'll be very tepid on abortion; in Korea, there is neither a pro-LGBT movement nor an anti-abortion movement (or at least none of any numerical significance). My point being that the "minorities are conservative" line might end up surprising white Americans when it doesn't unfold according to the supposed script.

[@WilliamMoses355]

Abortion in South Korea was decriminalization in 2021. They might not have had much time to think about getting the movement going.

[@matthewkilbride1669]

@@WilliamMoses355 It’s been quite common here for a long time. They had plenty of time; it’s just not an issue.

[@brittybee6615]

@@matthewkilbride1669 It’s been common but only recently decriminalized? How did people go about getting them, then? Just curious.

[@matthewkilbride1669]

​@@brittybee6615 I just don't think the law was enforced. You could get abortions from professional doctors in legal health clinics. It's not like it was some shady underground industry.

[@EmJay2022]

If manifestations are not a requisite of a genuine baptism of the Holy Spirit, i.e speaking in tongues, how then would you know you have the Holy Spirit?

[@hermanr5513]

I honestly cannot understand why this is so complicated. I don’t hear much discussion about what scripture says. What happened at Sherman St., CRC seems to be playing out today. They only want the discussion about feelings and experience, but reject discussing what scripture says. This is a sin issue that needs to be addressed at its root. Christ himself gave us a tremendous example when confronted with temptation - “It is written…”. It doesn’t help that many CRC’s (including my own) do not preach the whole counsel of God and fail to exposit what the Bible says about this issue.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

There are discussions about Scripture. You can find them on CRC-Voices. The CRC is not managing community conversation very well.

[@hermanr5513]

@@PaulVanderKlay Agreed. Thanks, I’ll check it out

[@jimluebke3869]

I wonder, did the money backing these innovations dry up, when the Ukraine war started? Anyway, it seems like the deaconess faction has had their Sister Souljah moment, and is disavowing all connection with anything farther down the slippery slope. It's very heartening to see. =)

[@kylekloostra5659]

Curious how you voted on those two recommendations?

[@monkfoobar]

He would have been one of the 16 names on record if he was apposed to it. Safe bet.

[@carolroberts5217]

Has anyone researched and paid attention to the scientific and physiologic process of sex and gender in the body.

[@nickloenen4255]

I appreciate your call for continued conversation, Paul. There was much talk at Synod about reformed hermeneutics, but no sustained discussion on Jesus reaching out to the marginalized, the lost, the least, the last, the rejects of society. I appreciated the comment about the CRC being in danger of embracing loveless orthodoxy by delegate Dominic Palacios.

[@michlbentley]

I don’t think outreach or service was up for debate - as in, no one is questioning the need to serve all people or to reach out to people outside the faith, preach the gospel, etc. Nothing about this clarification in theology and the gospel would change that attitude or action, either. So, no ill will to Dominic, but his comment really doesn’t have any context in calling the CRC’s theology “loveless,” unless you believe the church needs to tell everyone we help that nothing about their life is sinful in order for us to love them.

[@nickloenen4255]

@@michlbentley "Outreach or service was not up for debate" Do you not agree it should have been? Jesus had a preference for the outcasts. If our principles of bible interpretation produce a practice that lacks a preference for outcasts, should we not question our principles of bible interpretation? What has happened so far to same-sex attracted persons born into the CRC? They have mostly quietly left in pain. With this Report that trend will only continue. Jesus' preference for the outcasts requires reflection on what that means for us, today.

[@michlbentley]

@@nickloenen4255 I may be wrong, but it seems you’re believe that Christians can only help those they believe have no sin. However you came to that conclusion, it certainly isn’t a concept in OT Law, or the Prophets, or anything that Jesus taught his Apostles, or even what our congregation practices. Here’s a few operating truths from the Bible that move us toward others: 1) Jesus is the only sinless ‘human,’ 2) Every Christian (every single one of us) are ALL sinners redeemed and made holy to God only by faith in Jesus - and that only by God’s grace and mercy, and; 3) We are to help every single person to know Jesus, and love them whether they embrace Jesus or not. If the only way that someone can love a person is to never tell them they are morally wrong, then that leaves you with some sort of lawless subjective humanism. Even Jesus didn’t love people the way you’re suggesting here. And, yes, some people walked away from Jesus sad. Some people had him killed. So, if the gospel is only good when it doesn’t offend anyone, you have a problem with Jesus first. Either way, I’d ask you to take another look at the gospels. Ask God to show you the truth of who Jesus is. If we’re all ok, Jesus never had to show up.

[@chrisw10]

My experience as a same-sex attracted person in the CRC is that I was embraced by my pastor (of a conservative church) with open arms, and with those I've told. I don't hide my past, and when it's appropriate to bring it up in context I do so. People know, and I don't really care who knows. There have been no caveats or limitations on what I can or can't volunteer for or help with in my church based upon my status. I can't speak to any universal or generalized experience, and I don't doubt there've been negative experiences, but to speak from my own experience, something tells me that these generalizations about how same-sex attracted persons might react are probably missing the mark. They seem too simplistic, because the CRC's decision to make this confessional sits fine with me. Why? I don't believe that you can have love without an ideal for the act of loving to aim toward. The progressive side seems to have no ideal but love itself, and what determines what love is is the subjective experience and interpretation of each individual being loved. I don't think I'm mischaracterizing here, but if I am I'd appreciate some gentle correction. I point this out because it raises the question, what can love *not* justify if the locus of its action is in the subjective self? I am same-sex attracted but it's for this reason among others that I refuse to identify as that, or any other sexual or asexual category. Happily married here with kids, conservative in my theology, still a struggling sinner as we all are, and I've never been more content with who I am than now. So make of that what you will. My main point I wanted to communicate that how this will affect same-sex attracted persons in the CRC will probably have more to do with each person's self-conception than their sexual orientation. Which really, now that I think about it, if we can get that through everybody's head, might be how you have further conversations about this without running up against the same walls. I think conversations about outreach (and all the other things this vote brings up) could become much more fruitful with that paradigm.

[@nickloenen4255]

@@chrisw10 Thank you for engaging. The church, and I too, need to hear your story. Personal experiences speak more than study committee reports. I am 78 and have lived with homosexuality my whole life. My late brother Jack and my only sister, Gerrie are same-sex attracted. They both came out as young adults. Jack in Vancouver in a CRC congregation and Gerrie in Amsterdam in one of the CRC's mother churches. They were both confessing members at the time. Jack was told your condition is not of your own doing but you must remain celibate. And if you don't, you will imperil your soul and we cannot have fellowship with you. Gerrie was told, your attraction is a natural variant, no different than those born with red hair or blind, etc. If you do enter a same-sex relationship be faithful to your partner, no promiscuity or using the other for self-gratification. Model your relationship on that which holds between Jesus and the redeemed. That is the goal of marriage, whether straight or gay. Your task is to be committed and to love each other. That is God's will for your life. She is still in that relationship at age 85 now. They truly love each other, each week Gerrie is in church and she has all the virtues of sainthood. Where is the sin in that? In my view the Dutch church is much closer to the gospel of Jesus than the CRC.

[@stevenking6129]

Sad for the CRC. Not at all Christ like.

[@mmccrownus2406]

Pls tell them I recommended that they repent

[@brianricketts8242]

short videos are great. I prefer them.

[@mostlydead3261]

and so ideology triumphs over Christ..

[@Beatsbeebur]

Welcome to the CRC.

[@expressionofwill5307]

It's easy to see, because of how committed they are to pushing a political agenda. The only way you see affirmation of homosexuality as biblical is by twisting it to fit ideology

[@scottmcloughlin4371]

@@Beatsbeebur Have you ever read Scripture? Read the Parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22. "For many are invited, but few are chosen." Christianity is for anyone, but not for "everyone."

[@Beatsbeebur]

@@scottmcloughlin4371 great insight . I am wrestling with that exactly.

[@scottmcloughlin4371]

​@@Beatsbeebur The 3 big transnational recruiting religions - Buddhism, Christianity and Islam - are huge and diverse collections of peoples, institutions, projects and traditions. It's very easy and common to encounter the "wrong kind." People are picky about all kinds of things. Too fancy? Not fancy enough? Too intellectual? Not intellectual enough? Too modern? Too old fashioned? People who really love night clubs will wait in line for hours and hours to "get in." I don't understand them, but there they are waiting in line. That's patience and persistence. Many Christians switch churches a few times in their lives. They get the "wrong kind" and need to keep searching. The "old fashioned" kinds last the longest. That's why they seem "old fashioned." But while they last, the "more modern" kinds serve their flocks just as well. Christians can recruit new Christians, but they can't "help" anti-Christian individuals who don't want to be helped by Christians. That limitation is pretty obvious. States and commercial corporations have other reasons for being anti-Christian, namely waging lethal wars and selling crap nobody sane should be buying. Christians are more vocally opposed to such anti-Christian states and corporations. I hope that helps explain more.

[@hankkruse4660]

Du Mez can go to work for the College of Moloch. She is well qualified.

[@dgbx6]

And this is what you consider to be a 'Christian' response. Shame on you.

[@hankkruse4660]

@@dgbx6 heretics are to be mocked.

[@geoffrobinson]

@@dgbx6 it's mild compared to what the prophets & apostles would have said to her.

[@anselman3156]

If she's in the "pro choice" camp, the Moloch reference is appropriate. I had not known that fact about her.

[@dgbx6]

@@geoffrobinson What would the prophets and apostles have said about you and the CRC for it's past treatment of gay people without your family?

[@charliecampbell6851]

Hope you are doing well Paul.

[@benryzebol8349]

This movement is not Biblical and will not be blessed by God.

[@lungfish]

The God of the Bible is not the actual creator of the universe, it's a mythology and the creation account is totally different from how the universe originated in actual reality. Same with the biblical origin story of humanity which is not true at all. Miracles are magic tricks written in by the authors to sell the myth to the credulous and are also found in other religious systems and fantasy fiction. Sin is an imaginary concept defined by the book and they change its definition over time (e.g. it used to be sinful to eat pork). Paul was not speaking with charity when he condemned the LGBT or wrote misogynic things and thus his words on these matters were as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. People should move on from religion for the simple reason that it is neither real nor moral

[@lindadunn8787]

That folks ought to move on from what is not real nor moral sounds healthy and wise to this old girl. As far as what you said about the actual creator of the universe, your point makes sense to me from the perspective of authority. If God isn't The Father, the significance of Jesus as The Son would be sketchy at best, I suppose. But the pork thing? As a former Seventh-day Adventist turned agnostic pagan turned Roman Catholic turned around, inside out and upside down, so to speak, I think that was a discipline preparing the way for The Bread of Life. As far as VanderKlay's charitable use of the percussion instruments goes, I can't say. Are you holding him to a Biblical standard? Seems we who live in this time have real skin in the game. So many questions. So many difficulties. I wonder if CRC believes in free will. That seems like a big deal to me. We have these bodies and we choose? What could possibly go wrong? Whose authority is sufficient? What you said about moving on from religion makes sense if it is simply reasonable as you say. That's a choice. Personally, as a septugenarian who does not have dementia, I remember a lot and that is simply complicated. May we be guided by truth and may peace be with us.