Pay-to-Win Minecraft Servers - The TRUTH.

Minecraft pay to win servers. They are bad right? Well, lets actually investigate that.
Join my server : og-network.net (Bedrock Port: 19132)
- Website: og-network.net
- Discord: / discord
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0:00 - Intro
0:53 - What Even Happened?
6:59 - Minecraft Servers & Money
12:24 - Servers Need Money.
15:23 - Ethical Monetisation
21:34 - The “Anti Pay-to-Win” Community
26:56 - Exploitation?
29:12 - How Much Money Does My Minecraft Server Make?
33:06 - Cosmetics?
Music Used:
1. Scott Buckley - Shadows and Dust
2. DBadge - Void Essence ( • Void Essence )
3. DBadge - 6ft ( • DBadge - Haunted Tapes )
4. Lena Raine - Rubedo
5. C418 - Shuniji
6. Scott Buckley - Race the Sun
7. C418 - Flake
8. Scott Buckley - Machina
9. C418 - Living Mice
10. Feels - Patrick Patrikios
11. Resolution - Wayne Jones
12. C418 - Taswell
If there is any content in this video which you own and would like removed, than please contact me and I will be happy to oblige.
#minecraft #minecraftsmp #minecraftserver

[@TheMisterEpic]

Make sure to watch the video before leaving a comment, I guarantee it will have information that will at least make you think about the entire scenario. My Server IP: og-network.net (Bedrock Port: 19132) Server Discord: discord.gg/G7zq6NPZnM

[@Kat21]

okay i'll watch

[@GurkenbauerTim]

*Betrayal*

[@xSteelyx]

I watch all the way through on every single one

[@msbereny6092]

ill join

[@astraljava8500]

atleast watch the video first before saying that maybe hes right?, im watching rn@@lliillllillllllillllillll5214

[@thunderwave89]

You either die a hero or live to see yourself become a villain

[@Marlin123]

But in the end, what were we fighting for?

[@TheMisterEpic]

True, but in this scenario the actually bad villains only continue to become stronger if more people don't embrace their less villanous side and attempt to compete with them

[@itisAuto]

​@@TheMisterEpic bros on his villain arc

[@Fruad_jo]

@@Marlin123an end to endless child exploitation and causing children to have life ruining gambling addictions because of their childhood?

[@_xX_me_Xx_]

I came here just to say this 💀

[@GurkenbauerTim]

So it‘s only fair for us, the community, to *dupe* on your server

[@dwightdeisenhower53]

lets do it

[@dwightdeisenhower53]

get this to most likes everyone

[@TheMisterEpic]

Make sure to make the video entertaining

[@SugarCubic709]

First to dupe to 1 million items gets $1,000 dollars

[@chubby3726]

Commenting here to edit later

[@Nutellagott]

326 missed calls from Duper Trooper

[@user-wp2wp3vh8e]

670 missed calls from The Horizon

[@xxGreenRoblox]

194819 missed calls from TheMisterEpic

[@MetroidChild]

How was P2W _ever_ confused to mean _all_ forms of monetization? P2W = monetary exchange that gives players an unfair advantage. Match making based (partially) on equipment solves this aspect. Gambling is an entirely separate ethical issue from P2W.

[@kkidude8441]

yeah i completely agree, to me something is really only P2W once items that are better than what a free to play can ever get are brought into the picture. Paying to skip a large grind to save time shouldn't really be P2W, as the player probably spent that time on an actual job for that money. Paying to skip time in a game is completely different than paying for items that can't be obtained otherwise stuff like paying for enchants that go above maximum level when F2P can only get sharp 5 or prot 4.

[@MetroidChild]

​@@kkidude8441 Paying to skip artificial passive time waits is more often than not predatory (candy crush cooldowns), skipping active time like grinding can also be predatory depending on how likely it is for a player to actually get rewarded for their honest efforts, this is more of a gray area though since people value their time differently.

[@tranquility6789]

​@@kkidude8441"paying to skip a large grind shouldnt be considered p2w" that's literally how most big free games are monetized, or even some paid ones. Star wars battlefront 2 has massive controversy over being p2w because characters like darth vader took 40 hours of in game play time to unlock, unless you spent money for them. Are you seriously telling people that isnt pay to win?

[@kkidude8441]

@@tranquility6789 k ngl u have a point there but there's definitely still a difference between unobtainable p2w and that But like also if someone's mad about skipping a 40 hour grind with real money then just tell em to grind for 40 hours at an actual job

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

​@@kkidude8441 Paying to skip a large grind is P2W. They just make the grind so hard you have to pay or give up. Old Runescape (not modern OSRS) got ethical monetisation right - there WERE just two tiers in Runescape - people who pay and people who don't. You can't pay more to get more benefits, and when playing with free players you're restricted to only use free equipment.

[@Kirbydogs9]

Ok the fact that it's an RPG makes a lot more sense. Though as another person said (@GurkenbauerTim), "So it‘s only fair for us, the community, to *dupe* on your server"

[@GooeySplat]

someone should make a disc server dedicated to this.

[@drayde4155]

True

[@mariocraft95]

In another comment, he actually said “as long as you make the video entertaining”

[@Kirbydogs9]

@@mariocraft95 yea

[@Fnafan97]

“You were the chosen one! You were supposed to destroy the Pay-to-Win servers, not join them!”

[@FrioBS]

"It was you who would bring balance to the P2W servers, not leave them in darkness!"

[@parsphere6357]

ANAKIN!

[@McLovinMods]

"I don't like P2W. It's expensive and scummy and irritating and it shows up everywhere."

[@user-xy4vp6rv7g]

YOU WERE MY BROTHER MR EPIC!

[@Cynto_]

It's over Mr. Epic, I have the moral High Ground

[@The_Horizon]

Hihi, I'm mad at you not because you're making your server "P2W" (more on the quotes later) but because you're making me watch this entire damn half hour long video and write a response on the weekend before a midterm because of all my viewers spamming me this vid lol MC Servers and money: - Very valid points. I have been told the revenue of all sorts of server owners but never collected and quantified data. These points are why "Semi-P2W" Exists, which is basically giving perks that benefit/convenience the player but are pretty stupid to claim as a reason for not being on a specific leaderboard position/not winning a battle. - I think frankly, if a medium-large server can't exist without P2W... then maybe it just... shouldn't exist? This is a very controversial argument to say and I genuinely think its okay for small servers to run Ethical P2W for a period of time to get off the ground, but if a server cannot exist without promoting gambling addictions and unhealthy feedback loops to minors (which your poll shows a majority of your already mature server audience are) then maybe it just shouldn't exist at all... If a server is monetized through cash and has no leaderboard then its PVE, which is so many times better than P2W and i think is acceptable for providing a balance of a server that isn't preying on its player base and is making the owners money. - I think server owners can make money if they want but it shouldn't be at the expensive of random impressionable kids who don't know what they are getting into. No server owner is putting a sign saying "OUR SERVER IS P2W!" because they know that if their impressionable audience were told so directly, they would avoid it. - (bit more of a comment) I'm seeing a trend lately on how easy it is to advertise servers. It used to be really hard, but with tiktok/shorts along with the official server list I think we're going to see more fair advertising opportunities for non-p2w servers as we've seen through the trends currently. It is now easier than ever to advertise a server for cheaper than ever. - I genuinely don't think P2W servers have better gamemodes/stand out more, its actually quite the opposite- nearly all of the interesting servers I can think of are non-p2w or PVE, I think P2W servers blow everything on their advertising budget. Not that they can't have better gamemodes at all, but my theory is that the P2W cycle promotes not standing out to keep as much money as possible and avoid spending as much on taking risks. But you can fight me on this, I'm not as involved in the server community anyways. Ethical Monetization: - Yeah I basically agree, a lot of servers without their crate keys aren't so bad When it comes to real, genuine competition in my experience of playing on servers a lot of the times, store items and such can't really carry you to baltop and whatnot - I updated my community sheet for the first time in 3 years to contain ethical monetization info, but just to define the walls that I have set (and it is the community sheet, if you guys disagree I will change it) there shall be no gambling or repeat heavily advantageous purchases like spawners due to the unhealthy feedback loop they cause (You can buy more and lose a shit ton of money). I know you draw your line at gambling but I draw mine at things like spawners. I talk more about this on the doc with more nuance and details. It also doesn't permit servers with significant resources to take this approach COMMUNITY: - You're 100% right about all of this. I used to run a thing called sublegions until I realized that crashing P2W servers didn't really help at all in sending the message but rather gave 12 year olds ethical justification in crashing servers for fun only. Nobody genuinely cared about stopping P2W. - Change has INDEED come from the antip2w movement. Not from the crashing but because of awareness. I don't think it was a coincidence that Mojang began enforcing their EULA suddenly out of nowhere, and I don't think the dramatic decrease in general P2W is either. I remember in 2017 looking EVERYWHERE for a non-p2w but those were non existent. Now it feels extremely difficult to find a server that is definitively P2W like how we've used to see. And sure we have crate keys and such but its not like those are as bad as they used to be. - I feel like there is a bit of survivorship bias with this: your server seems to have a more mature audience and advertises over youtube in mature, not too flashy videos. I'm not saying the data isn't valueble but im saying that it isn't representative of the total MC population who bought ranks. Also I feel like the "stealing parents credit card" thing is a bit of a meme/joke, its rather kids manipulating and convincing their parents to purposefully buy the ranks and eventually fall into a gambling addiction thats bad YOUR SERVER: - I think that some servers should try a business model of making videos off of their own server, and some non-p2w server owners should explore it. I think it has big potential. - I think its handled fairly well on your servers webstore In the end, I think the AntiP2W movement ideally should keep going... Because large P2W servers have the money and resources to blow on moderation and creating anti-crash plugins, and non-p2w servers need more players to thrive, and since antip2w is now so publicized, more players are looking for a non-p2w experience. Weirdos who profit off of desperate kids who want dupes will keep existing but I think its a net positive to have. Overall very well constructed video, I think it presents a decent middle ground for us to aim towards so we can see more unique monetization methods and hopefully see non-p2w be more viable as the future goes on

[@opalyon]

yo

[@Nadeel]

Woah 2 likes

[@The_Horizon]

@@opalyon no

[@opalyon]

@@The_Horizon

[@tandyo]

liking for visibility

[@user-sv6hv6ym1d]

Never before I've heard TheMisterEpic properly finishing "Thank you so much for watching".

[@albal156]

Ikr 😄. I do love the unique way he says it in his videos though.

[@Flumpty._.]

You bring up fair points, but be careful from falling down a slippery slope. P2W is best if it’s isolated, or a P2P game mode would be ideal to make a sense of exclusivity.

[@keagaming9837]

So true! Once one thing happens, the next even deeper thing becomes easier.

[@andrejnovak8119]

Pay to play dont act smart​@geogres

[@hutek4202]

Peer to peer continue acting smart@geogres

[@Flumpty._.]

@geogres Pay 2 play is much better than pay 2 win. P2P is a good idea because it can allow people to play an exclusive high quality game mode, while also maintaining equal footing for all players.

[@SporianSummit]

@@hutek4202 *plant to plant, be smarter next time.

[@dogshit87]

are you gonna release a duping video called “DESTROYING my P2W server”

[@TheMisterEpic]

I'm sure people will do that for me

[@dogshit87]

maybe horizon will come out of hibernation@@TheMisterEpic

[@getobbied5065]

@@TheCreationKilnBlockbench Wow, a guy who didn't watch the video!

[@balala4641]

@@TheCreationKilnBlockbench Here we observe the wild Smallusattentionspanus in it's natural habitat; the youtube comments section, hunting an unsuspecting content creator after scrolling down to the comments section 2 seconds after the video started.

[@whoagainwastaken32times]

@@TheCreationKilnBlockbench did you not retain ANY information from the 33 minute video..? like? at all?

[@Moshinoki]

Imagine going on a date and having to explain your job is being a mod on a Minecraft server

[@jobobminer8843]

Just got to say "I work in softwear development and online entertainment"

[@boboftibia]

Damn, saw the money said its my turn.

[@russotusso1695]

I am 90% those videos where he duped on P2W servers was done solely to hurt future competition

[@Puggylord316]

@@russotusso1695 Nope, that would have been dumb, he admits he knew they do no long term damage, beyond like a week, and why would he put his name out by being about being anti pay to win before then doing it? He definitely just saw the money they were making and realised is could host his server for admittedly some p2w but not fully.

[@WillBilly.]

@@russotusso1695 if you want to attack use your head, he duped because its an easy video that brain dead kids flock too because they like seeing other people get fucked over

[@goodguyLT]

You lost the reason why most of us hate P2W: we can't compete with people who spend money and it takes away fun

[@TheMisterEpic]

I agree thats bad, but servers with non predatory monetisation schemes dont have this issue, or at least its not nearly as bad

[@lfo-dk1gg]

@@TheMisterEpic "Not nearly as bad" Still bad

[@thegiantjj]

you dont have to play the new money gamemode

[@colejosephalexanderkashay683]

Its still bad ;(​@@TheMisterEpic

[@huntbat]

@@lfo-dk1gg Bro have you never run a business before. To keep the server running he needs funds. I don't think it would be completely viable to entirely use the money from KZbin. Maybe as a starter, yes but the server needs to be self-sustainable. Otherwise its just another expense for him. He's talking (i think) about servers like Hypixel, where the gameplay isn't affected by the monetization scheme. You paying for a rank doesn't affect your stats in the actual game.

[@bluestorm3945]

Despite not liking P2w, I can understand where he’s coming from, I agree that ethical monetization is fine, and that it’s really fake sales, gambling, etc that are bad

[@thatbritishgamer]

this is called lowering you standards . this is why all this nonsense is about

[@mustbge0]

@@thatbritishgamer I encourage you to watch the entire video. If you already did and still maintain your opinion, fair enough, but if you haven't, please give it a go.

[@mustbge0]

@@iam_deltalegend246 25:20

[@bluestorm3945]

@@iam_deltalegend246 it’s only in the new game mode though, and it’s considered a casual game mode, not a competitive one.

[@bluestorm3945]

@@iam_deltalegend246 fair enough if you think that way

[@qjdianenfjaiwk]

My only complaint is doing a poll to find under 13 players on a platform that bans you if you are under 13. I remember being on a discord that did the same for a game”game” then banned anyone who said under 13. They may have been scared of being banned from your discord

[@TheMisterEpic]

The poll was anonymous so nobody knew what responses people picked

[@qjdianenfjaiwk]

@@TheMisterEpic oh that changes things nvm! Are you still gonna dupe on p2w servers? And when you say it was anonymous, was that told to them? Because if they didnt know that that might have skewed the results slightly

[@wastely]

@@TheMisterEpic , If there are 0.1% of minors on your server, it is already irresponsible to charge to win

[@foul-fortune-feline]

@@TheMisterEpic Also iirc the poll was for "when was your first purchase" and the server is a couple years old now, so putting "13 or under" is really only evidence that they're ~15 at the oldest at this point in time

[@foul-fortune-feline]

@@wastely You do realize that it's impossible to vet everyone for a server that size?

[@yutg-ph3jk]

the biggest betrayal of minecraft history 💀

[@godzilla8470]

Context?

[@meshogamer164]

fr like p2w is still p2w no matter what😅

[@DohPixelheart]

me when i don't watch the video :

[@yutg-ph3jk]

​@DohPixelheart ya, he does this to sustain the sever but is still p2w.Just because he said he needs to, so it doesn't mean he is not hypercritical.

[@cheeseburgermonkey7104]

P2W sounds completely bonkers until you actually _become_ a server owner

[@teseo5544]

Hey look, some one that actually saw the entire video.

[@unstoppblekid]

@@teseo5544 i did too, it explains a lot.

[@The_Wafool]

yeah its hard to monetize servers if its not p2w

[@lorenzo42p]

@@The_Wafoolthen don't. simple as that.

[@doodlegame8704]

@@lorenzo42p running a server is expensive

[@dracnoian5327]

Hey there. I've helped run a non-P2W server for nearly three years now, and I can tell you that trying to manage a server on low income is a true challenge. We have never been able to get any footing on lists for more than a few weeks after our launch, social media is something we tried but lack of funds kept us from getting far, and creating new experiences via plugins was at best extremely tedious and at worst rendered impossible due to the expenses of developers. The only reason we survived as long as we have been able to is an extremely dedicated community who grew up alongside the server and with each other... really less of a server and more of a massive extended friend group in a way. It is a sad fact we have to deal with that non-P2W servers simply are almost never viable long term. If you want to grow *and* keep the lights on, sometimes compromises must be made.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Thanks for sharing.

[@angryjames9048]

This server sounds like what I've been looking for, can I join perhaps?

[@StefanoAbruzzi]

​@@angryjames9048Me too. What's the IP?

[@JumboTheBee]

Drop the IP?

[@bedstevesuper1936]

There some servers that survive long term one of them being the hive.

[@1zho.]

In Poland there was one non-pay to win server. after two years of running, it shut down couse they didn't have enough money to pay for the server. They had a donate option but almost no one ever donated. kinda sad.

[@Daniel_VolumeDown]

What was the name?

[@1zho.]

@@Daniel_VolumeDown i dont really remember it was a loooong time ago. I think it was something like "victor" or something like that. Preety similar to other one named "victory craft" but yea it had something with "victor" in its name,

[@crypto1upteam750]

I still run my own non pay to win server and its doing fine. Spoiler, it goes a lot better if you dont turn it into a business.

[@SanaeKochiya]

@@crypto1upteam750 That's what people fail to understand, pursuing growth like a crackhead will kill your server.

[@Official_Rz]

How many players does your server have? If you have any less than 10-20 players, your opinion is invalid. @@crypto1upteam750

[@mixel346]

i feel like if you add in anything that costs money to get, you should also be able to get it without paying money so it is not super unfair. but most minecraft P2W servers do not do that.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Exactly, which is why most p2w servers have decent monetisation if you exclude the gambling

[@dmdj8588]

True. Entrophy circles around

[@dmdj8588]

@@TheMisterEpic well if you are not greedy nor making lives out of minecraft server only, you might charge your people reasonable amount of dollars for them to easily purchase! Not for one-time purchase but subscription by month is another good idea for people to easily support your server financially since it can drop the price lower then one-time-big-bucks purchase.

[@mohammad0w076]

​@@TheMisterEpicidea: we can get this items but it's extremely super duper toper tropper Hard to get 😅

[@dmdj8588]

@@mohammad0w076 one of great ideas to prevent hyperinflation within the server economy lol

[@Deggo]

As long as the P2W features are not malicious (gambling targeted towards kids, etc) like other servers have done I am completely fine with this

[@D0JES]

I agree, I thought the same thing.

[@MonkeyMod]

Agreed

[@LiEnby]

being P2W just *is* malicous, actually.

[@AlryFireBlade]

So you say it is not as bas as ... so it is OK. Congratulation with this mindset it will become worse and worse.

[@_select]

@@AlryFireBladethat's not really a good comparison, saying "this isn't malicious, so i'm okay with it" is quite different.. also the words "not as bad as" was never said

[@martinhart9829]

As an owner of a Minecraft server, I completely agree with you. We had the server running for around a year and we lost money every single month. We are now revamping the server for around 1.5 years and it is not possible for us to not make P2W. We don't want to add crates (cause they suck), but it simply isn't possible to make a server non pay to win without losing money. Learned it the hard way...

[@Kattalanonyt]

Make a better server. If you're server is good people will buy ranks. Hypixel has no p2w and makes huge amounts of money.

[@martinhart9829]

not true at all. Hypixel is very p2w. The only gamemode they care about is Skyblock. Skyblock is completely p2w. It is true that in the past they didn't have Skyblock and still ran the server fine, but there is a reason for almost only focusing on Skyblock. Also they were the biggest server, ofc they made enough money. It is really hard to create a non pay to win server in the Czech Republic, that would succeed. If you owned a server, you would know.@@Kattalanonyt

[@martinhart9829]

not saying our server was perfect btw. It could have been better. But how do you want to make your server better, when it is losing money? I used to spend all my free time to make the server better.@@Kattalanonyt

[@martinhart9829]

my other comment isn't showing for some reason. Hypixel is p2w. They have hypixel Skyblock. That is a very p2w minigame@@Kattalanonyt

[@stanzacosmi]

problem with your logic: Hypixel was the first big server to get super popular, and thus, get a lot of income, allowing them to make it better faster.

[@skeee8837]

Awful takes all throughout this video, at least for the most part.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Like?

[@jaredlee6591]

@@TheMisterEpic the world may never know people need to stop being so one-sided

[@gamerultimate5132]

@@TheMisterEpic Here we have a commenter that gives negative plain criticism and doesn't explain why, don't let em drag you down man

[@SvengelskaBlondie]

"awful take" At least not as awful as your comment, which you fail to elaborate why the whole take is so awful

[@jaredlee6591]

@@SvengelskaBlondie perfect

[@shaod2936]

All that I ask is that all the "perks" you sell are available without purchase behind a grind wall

[@river559]

My issue mostly comes from how people misunderstand what pay to win actually means. You can have monetization without being pay to win. You can have predatory monetization without being pay to win. Pay to win literally means you pay to have a competitive advantage against another, or to make the game ridiculously easy. The way you explained how the monetization will work on your server sounds like it's not pay to win, but just have some monetization. You can take a look at fortnight, which has very predatory monetization, but isn't pay to win since pretty much all you're paying for are cosmetics, character skins or emotes. You can look at literally any mobile game and see that 95%+ of them are entirely pay to win or have some level of predatory monetization straight out the box. This was something that I thought you knew, or at least learned along the way of your duping history when it came to crates or the absurd ranks you can buy. But there is a way to do both ethically without being pay to win or crazy levels of gambling. Unfortunately, changing to that will never become the norm since the industry found out they can just print money by doing this. Again, that's why most mobile games are the way they are with most having barely a 2 year lifespan, and most looking and playing the exact same. People keep thinking that fortnight popularized the battle pass system, but that's been a mobile game thing for as long as I can remember, back when I got my first smartphone and started playing mobile games in 2011. Seeing the title of the video did make me a bit alarmed, but I can see you're on the right path here. You can 100% make a profit or break even with monetization without being a scumbag or pay to win. Those saying that you shouldn't make money running a popular server have no idea what they're talking about. And you don't seem like the type of guy to run predatory monetization just because you need to make money. There's a fine line, and from where I'm sitting, you're nowhere near it. Good luck running the server. I would play on it, but public servers was never my thing. And hopefully your partner can get that job he's gunning for.

[@river559]

@@0kr4m Might want to read again where I said what popularized it, not invented it. Big difference my friend. Hydrox was the first sandwich cookie, but Oreo popularized it. And you might want to define what you think pay to win is before moving forward as well.

[@redstonianemboar5711]

This comments needs SO many more likes

[@river559]

@@0kr4m Again, you're missing the point of the comment altogether. So I was off by 2 miniscule years, that has nothing to do with the root of the comment. Explain where the "winning" is when it comes to the server given how the gamemode is? Under how I explained what pay to win is and the implementations of it, I fail to see your logic, or lack thereof.

[@river559]

@@redstonianemboar5711 Agreed

[@keesvdb]

@@river559 you can say that about almost any P2W minecraft servers. The 'winning' is having an easier time, getting options/gear that F2P don't, and similar perks because you could steal your parents card. You can monetize a server while its not P2W, but to do so you need to go into a different route then commands/gear. You need to go down the path of cosmetics but not ones that give an advantage.

[@portalpvp5031]

Not gonna lie, i dont care abt p2w but it annoys me that you've gone against them this much then preceded to say its okay now that i need to do it

[@TheMisterEpic]

The past year in all my duping videos where Ive "gone against these servers", I've explicitly stated in them that I'm not against these servers pay to win mechanics, but only their gambling.

[@CatDevz]

Yeah seriously. The hypocrisy is what bothers me the most.

[@blaze4074]

@@TheMisterEpicit’s still against Minecraft’s Eula and in all your videos always oppose “p2w” servers not gambling

[@telnobynoyator_6183]

Still at the beginning and already have a weird feeling. "not competitive" -> shows competitive features whole thing so far look like an ad to showcase the new pay to win game mode Idk maybe it gets better

[@Slime7_]

update?

[@TheMisterEpic]

Whats competitive? Theres no winning this server? Theres no raiding/griefing? PvP can be completely ignored and is entirely optional? Where is the competitive aspect you claim to see?

[@telnobynoyator_6183]

Just looking at some of the footage which looks like pvp combat, and moreover it looks like combat you can get better than others at. Note I didn't say "shows competitive gamemode" I said "shows competitive features". Now from experience I know that some people just have a really competitive mindset where everything looks like a competition to them, and if those people happen to be kids who aren't very mature with their emotions and are desperate to get an edge on others, they will be willing to pay for perks just because of that. Now granted I didn't look deeply into it, just basing myself off of the footage (again, why I said "shows" not "has" competitive features, because I'm just looking at what's happening on my screen) That aside, again, the whole thing looked like an ad with the server url fading in and out, so that didn't make the whole thing seem very genuine. @@TheMisterEpic

[@TheMisterEpic]

You can PvP, but it's also toggleable and can be completely ignored. There is no benefit to PvP besides just for fun. The server IP was literally in the video for 1 minute out of 36, and I had to talk about the new gamemode to give the video context

[@cwb074]

@@TheMisterEpic Do keep in mind that the comment was before they had finished the video, no need to get so upset

[@DerEingerostete]

As a developer myself I can understand the points and while it's still sad to see these changes I think they are far from the worst. I personally just hope that you won't stop with this video and also implement some mechanism into the server to inform people and prevent the creation of extreme whales (like in P2W mobile games). For example you could add information about the fact that it's P2W, why it is and how it's different to bad P2W tactics (maybe a chat message on join or a [P2W] Suffix for the Game Mode). This could inform new players of the differences to Non-P2W-Servers and make them understand what to look out for (especially outside of your server). And on the other hand you could maybe (depending on the Shop API) add a feature that prevents people that often spend "too much" money from buying new stuff for maybe X amount of time. Tbh it's not the best thing to prevent whales but it at least could give them a signal that they maybe should think about how much money they actually spend. Maybe even add a "Money" tracker that shows how much they already spend. I know that these features may not be the best solutions but feel free to use them or implement own ideas. But please don't stop after one video and tell yourself "I informed them in a video 6 months ago. They should have known better". Transparency is not a one-time-thing but a active process and being transparent is the least you can do and it will maybe help people understand you better

[@Ezkanohra]

This needs to be top. If you’re gonna make it P2W, at least continue to inform players what you’ve summarized in this video. (notice how he liked every comment except for this one, a bit sus)

[@x8fk3ti]

He became the enemy he swore to destroy.

[@rayansuneer]

Sometimes change is necessary.

[@Secretsss]

funny how that quote is from a man whose organisation became corrupt and lost their way

[@Sclanktestreint]

> not unethically p2w > 200 dollar rank with maxed netherite armor, tools, weapons, 6 stacks of bottles of enchanting, god apples > currency that allows users that pay to straight up claim more land, buy xp boosters, :*(

[@TheMisterEpic]

The kit you get from that rank isn't max, in fact it's far from it. We have a custom enchanting system where you can get up to protection 8. The other stuff can all be earnt just from playing as well

[@ihatehandleupdate]

@@TheMisterEpic That's even worse. Demanding 200 god blessed american dollars for a digital armor set that isn't even maxed. Do you realize how much money is that?

[@WillMidgeRichards]

@@ihatehandleupdatecan’t be demanding when there is 0 paywall

[@furioustoad7755]

I get where you're coming from, but a large portion of the allure to your server (to me at least) is because of the fact that you can't get an unfair advantage by opening your wallet, and I personally don't see much of a point in playing a gamemode that has P2W. If you buy your way to being better than most players without grinding for it yourself, what's the point of even playing then? If you don't buy your way to being better, other people can skip all of the hard work you did for your gear and even surpass you without having even mined a single block, so what's the point of even playing then? I agree that gambling is bad, but so called "non predatory monetisation" isn't exactly good either, and for me at least takes all of the fun out of playing.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Most people do not care about that like you do, evidenced by the fact that most pay to win servers are the biggest servers

[@furioustoad7755]

@@TheMisterEpic pay to win servers aren't marketed as non pay to win, so of course they're going to attract an audience that doesn't care about P2W

[@thatscaptainsir.2974]

The MisterEpic: makes his server pay to win. Everyone: You have become the very thing you swore to destroy

[@mooonns]

exactly

[@Mushbit]

If you just WATCH the video, you would clearly see that isn’t the case

[@Penguingot]

@@cadbane10 Nice, the average intelligence of the audience has increased

[@LilacMonarch]

@@Mushbit He changed his mind about it, he literally says so in the video

[@thykota]

Haven't watched fully, but I predict it all comes down to how cruel the market is to projects that just want to keep existing while keeping integrity. It's okay man, you are forever above the mayority for at least giving it a shot.

[@ayooo454]

personally i have nothing against him for making server p2w. its just extremely weird, why didnt he think of it while raiding other servers?

[@NoymoHD]

​@@ayooo454He already said it in the videos, the reasons he dupes on other servers aren't because they're pay to win but rather because of their predatory monetization and because of gambling, I still think it's a little bit hipocritical but at least it is a valid reason

[@smith3463]

Bro predicted the whole video

[@HumanoidDerpling]

MisterEpic: "Minecraft servers need to be pay-to-win" Hypixel: "Am I a joke to you?"

[@Nbvm0]

It's honestly incredible that hypixel managed to thrive on its start. Currently hypixel is just too big to fail, simply because of people who buy gems on hypixel or simply for most of people multiplayer servers and hypixel are synonyms and fortunately or unfortunately in foreseeable future no competitor appears.

[@purpleduckbee]

hypixel not rly a good example as they rely on a highly additive grindy game called skyblock, which has the insane gems of sb which make enough cash in game to buy insanely high end weapons.(not everyone there is addicted and some do know how to grind and be mentally not shit).

[@maksudakhatun9895]

@@purpleduckbee hhaha lil bro go back to mineplex u prob have never even played skyblock gems only get u so far u still have a shit ton of grinding even if u max out gems

[@purpleduckbee]

also on ironman god it's so much better to not have to deal with fucking spending 1+ hr farming for a cookie. even later on it's atleast 30-20m of farming for a single cookie@@maksudakhatun9895

[@jonahbutsleepy]

@@maksudakhatun9895still pay to win, doesnt matter how much you still have to do, it is still p2w. i have over 3500 hours in skyblock

[@thewintersgem7341]

Welcome back guys, today we are duping on og-network!

[@NoImNotJonsAltWhatDoYouMean]

> Argues that kids aren't exploited by P2W mechanics > To support that; he does a poll about cosmetic ranks in his own (somewhat) niche server What?? What kind of logic is that?? You are blatantly appealing to a survivorship bias. The Venn diagram of people that watch your videos and anti p2w is a large sum. Using messages of viewers that feel the need to actually reach out about their P2W server experience and shouldn't be used to back up such a claim.

[@monelmonelmonel]

Clock it

[@TheMisterEpic]

My server didn't just have cosmetics as perks, there were also a variety of functions including homes. The Venn diagram does not exist, my audience is the general Minecraft audience and always has been

[@NoImNotJonsAltWhatDoYouMean]

@@TheMisterEpic I get trying to explain that P2W mechanics are a necessary evil for a server, the 'cold hard truth'. Yes, a P2W server will keep the lights on, no it's not moral. So to just randomly take a 180 during the video to try and defend the morality feels tone-deaf to the rest of the video. And again, it's just heavy survivorship bias.

[@MiriadCalibrumAstar]

@@NoImNotJonsAltWhatDoYouMean a bias without care about the majority of percentage that its underage(proven by himself) and keep the cosmetics to bait the kids onto fit socially and not left out because its uncool not having "insert here whatever" (just the typical case of fortnite and skins). Edit: btw did he gaslighted you onto believing that the Venn diagram cant be fit onto a mass of data?

[@NoImNotJonsAltWhatDoYouMean]

@@MiriadCalibrumAstar Nah, maybe the way he's monetizing his own server is more ideal than say; a TikTokker with a largely young viewership promoting a P2W server but I'm not convinced those are going to be the same audiences. This channel appeals to a niche of Meta/Hardcore Minecrafters and I'm not particularly thinking otherwise. If solid data is unlikely to be obtained then so be it. I'd rather support the model of server that's less likely to do harm.

[@Go_ing]

Small Anti PTW server owner here, (8:51 - That's my server lol). I run an SMP that only has cosmetic ranks and your right about pretty much everything. Advertising is a bitch, (although reddit is better than you think), the server loses money, and I spend ~40 hours a week if not more working on my server mostly solo. The think that sets your server apart from mine is the size in that I don't have to worry about ~100 players on at any time, instead around 10. I pay ~20$ a month for server hosting but that is way more sustainable seeing as that is my only consistent cost. You talked about how a server needs to be unique in order to stand out which I totally agree with, but the way my server does that is by being not PTW and not feeling corporate. In that we have had our own success as a small server and the goal of sustainability isn't as lofty as a result. I sacrifice a lot to work on my server as I am also full time in college, but it is worth it because of how fulfilling it is. What I am trying to say is that if you have enough passion you can make a small anti-ptw server work. Also thanks for the cosmetic idea!

[@stoneman210]

what is your server ip?

[@chaotic-taco52]

@@stoneman210it’s in the description of his channel

[@jesper9736]

What server hosting do you use?

[@splooshium]

​@@jesper9736we use BerryByte!

[@logicguy4029]

sErVeR oWneRs aReNt meNt TO mAkE mOneYYyY

[@British132.]

as long as it stays to a single gamemode it shouldn't be too bad

[@theallduck]

Yeah

[@snowys7667]

But he spent years messing with servers just to turn around and make his ptw I doubt it's going to stop there.

[@snowys7667]

Like dropper trooper duped on servers for years just to turn around and start hacking on PVP servers as soon as he's videos stoped getting a shot lot of views

[@snowys7667]

And now he's making his server ptw he has the money to keep the server and the server doas make money even if it's not much he's not like other servers where the server needs to pay for itself. This server doas pay for itself and he makes money from KZbin the truth is he wants a little more money

[@bobeonyt6962]

@@snowys7667 were you not listening at the his staff are quitting part? he needs to find new staff, hire them, potentially for even more money. yes it's true that he has the money right now, later in 2-3 years he might not have the money. you're just ignoring most of the points he's made in his video

[@lightningx10]

Just a note, your stats in chapter 5 are misleading. It seems like you deliberately split up the under 18s into 3 different categories just to make it seen like over 18s or "mature" people are the majority. They are in-fact not and I'd argue that those under the age if 18 have less self control and value of money. If we look at it as under 18s vs over, you in-fact have a majority being under 18 and hence (generally) not fully developed in reasoning with money. Granted not all adults are good with money either, but I dont think you've actually addressed the point correctly. Let's look at the real stats: Under 18: 57% (112) Over 18: 43% (85) Now you'd need to consider the general age range for users of your server to determine whether minors are disproportionately represented, but my guess would be they are.

[@TheMisterEpic]

I split them up because I would not consider a 16-17 year old, nor a 14-15 year old a "kid who steals their parents credit card" as many people who use that line of reasoning do. Many 15+ year olds have jobs, incomes and spend money on things in real life, if they are capable of doing that, why would they not for an ethically monetised server?

[@lightningx10]

@@TheMisterEpic fair enough, I'll concede that people that age are possibly working for their money. There is a reason however that we limit gambling to 18+ and I do worry about ptw purchases becoming predatory over time even if it's not deliberate just because that's what's most effective. It seems like you are coming at monetisation from good faith anyway so it won't be a problem.

[@StuffandThings_]

I think a lot of this comes down to how abysmally bad Minecraft multiplayer is set up. In the beginning the very crowdsourced nature was a huge boon but at this point its very backwards and difficult to manage. No wonder Hypixel basically dominates the entire market.

[@FatheredPuma81]

I really like how he just ignores the fact that you don't need to host a Minecraft server. No seriously just close your server or collaborate with other servers to combine it into one mega server if you aren't making money. The players will go somewhere else until ideally we're left with a couple dozen profitable non-P2W servers. Also some of the servers you've shown hide their store or donations page behind multiple boxes. Massivecraft is a great example of this.

[@TheMisterEpic]

The players don't care about p2w servers lol, it's the reason they all have the players and the non p2w ones don't. "Just close down the server" or "collaborate with other servers" it's not a solution to the problem, by your logic all non pay to win servers should shut down then because most aren't financially viable. Massivecraft did not hide their store or anything behind multiple boxes, you have 0 clue what your are talking about here, they even confirmed our data for them was accurate, if you watched the video you would have seen that

[@FatheredPuma81]

@@TheMisterEpic Yes all of them but a few should combine or close down. Once that happens you can create a large community and have the capital to invest in better ways of monetization that works for Minecraft. Just because the community is splintered or silent doesn't mean it's small. Bro Massivecraft's Store button is hidden behind a menu and is the same bland color as every other button. Whoever made it clearly doesn't care about money. If they did it would be a rainbow button on the front of the page.

[@SkjesRed]

@@TheMisterEpic Except there are a lot of servers that can easily survive, and do, without p2w. Because p2w is pay money to get a benefit over players who did not pay money, which is easily avoided. If the player does not get a benefit, or does but it isn't effective, then ta-da the server isn't p2w. Yes, OP's logic is flawed, and so is yours. Want a good example of a server that isn't p2w and has existed for a long ass time? PvPLegacy. How about 2b2t? That one might seem arguable, but it's not p2w!

[@crypto1upteam750]

​@@TheMisterEpicYup, I do the same. I see other people murder and rpe so I just do it as well because if I didnt someone else would. Im glad we are on the same level bro 🎉

[@APZOEIRT]

​@@SkjesRed 2b2t has the priority queue and its really known

[@phucthinh291]

next vide: We Need To Talk - I'm Making My Minecraft Server LOOT-BOXES.

[@LilacMonarch]

fr lol

[@re57k]

I absolutely appreciate the honesty in this video, plus it's unrealistic to think that just because it's a passion project, it shouldn't be making money. The notion of simply "getting a job" to pay for your hobbies is only realistic up to a certain point, after which any more investment to your hobby would cut deeply into the money that you need to actually survive. You either have to charge it, or you'll have to abandon it. Besides it's immature to think that just because something exists digitally, then it shouldn't be monetized when in reality hardware, skills, time etc are worth money even in a digital landscape.

[@manspence2203]

It shows a lack of understanding without a doubt

[@Parciwal_Gaming]

I think it's the same when people ask artists to make smth. for free

[@Prahg]

I agree, but I don't think that anyone who thinks for a minute would say that something that someone puts may hours a month on should not be rewarded for their effort. No one is really saying that. What you do have to look at is how they make that money. Whether that be from exploiting people through gambling, needing to pay to keep up with competition, or the most harmless by donation and cosmetics.

[@re57k]

@@Prahg Really the only issue here is gambling. Paying to gain an advantage in a PVE setting is fine and doesn't break the commercial usage guidelines. I don't interact with the Minecraft community a lot, but I am a video game modder and you'd be surprised at how many people think that everything should be given to them for free. Of course, these people likely didn't even think for a second anyway.

[@Mind_Glue]

Honestly idk why you even have a server. I played on your server for almost a year and you only logged on like once in that time to get a clip for your video. You clearly don’t care about it and most of your staff who I have talked about shared my feeling. Just get rid of your server altogether. We both know it’s just something you use for video.

[@Mind_Glue]

exactly he doesn't care about the players

[@MrPetschko]

Lol if he dont care about his server, why does he even has one? Thats really no hobby project then

[@AmaroqStarwind]

This is genuinely depressing.

[@aCrumbled]

as a server owner, ive been saying this for years, luckily i have the perk of being a programmer so i dont have to spend money on plugins

[@poombie]

i think you released your april fools video 64 days too early.

[@NaClO]

I worked as a admin on a non p2w server for a few years and i can tell you first hand that trying to keep the server up is super challenging. The owner was always super stressed out with the thought of having the server and community that they worked so hard to build crumble away due to the sole fact that they could not pay for the server costs.... The thing with these servers is that they only get MORE expensive the more players join. Server stability is KEY for players to have an enjoyable time and using cheap hardware and bad plugins only increases the likely-hood of these players ultimately leaving and never returning. It was a sad day when the server owner decided to turn off the server indefinitely due to the costs. They had 2 jobs and STILL couldnt afford to run a server that wasnt ANYWHERE close to the big name servers... goes to show how competitive and hostile the minecraft server scene truly is

[@softkeysasmr]

I respect you for actually doing research and putting yourself in server owners' shoes (by hosting your own server) rather than blindly hating the way things are. Also being willing to admit that you were wrong and change your stance is a rare and noble thing nowadays

[@repostedfurrytiktoks]

So what your saying is that all the videos you have done against P2W servers have just been to advertise your own server and say it is an example of how good a minecraft server without p2w could be? And now you are just going to turn around and do the exact same thing as them? Idc about p2w, but targeting other servers and saying how bad they are because of being p2w and then doing the same thing as them?? I used to love this channel, never thought you could go that low just to try to make money or get more players.

[@Slime7_]

thats just not correct

[@TheMisterEpic]

No, and you clearly didnt watch the full video if thats the conclusion you've come to. As I've stated in my duping videos multiple times, I am only against crates and gambling, not their p2w mechanics.

[@repostedfurrytiktoks]

@@TheMisterEpicFair enough, I should have finished watching the video first. I do not think p2w is bad, and I agree servers can ethically monetize with p2w. However, it still feels like you duping on the other servers and using that to advertise your own server and say it is so much better than the other ones because was not p2w at the time just feels scummy. However, this could just be a complete coincidence, and not some form of malicious intent.

[@JustaGeminiGod]

You said when you made the server you would NEVER make it p2w

[@TheMisterEpic]

I also had 0 idea how to run a server then. But the gamemodes that existed when I said that, are still going to remain non pay to win

[@7tv48]

@@TheMisterEpic greed and money found a way to you all the other modes are going to have p2w or be removed you and duper are evil now

[@ohs_baba-yaga8698]

​@@7tv48lol what bro? I've ran servers before and like he was saying, it's nearly impossible to maintain a server without any form of p2w, he's doing it in the best most ethical way, nothing he is doing here in an invasive form of p2w.

[@7tv48]

@@ohs_baba-yaga8698 its still p2w ew your just a yaping simp

[@brianbuckley5204]

I think your reasoning behind this makes sense overall, but you could've done more to give people confidence in how this'll actually look in practice. What does ethically monetized actually mean beyond just no gambling? You should set real guidelines and parameters that both you and the audience can hold you to. Where is that additional revenue going? To the other admin so he can justify more time on it? To pay a different developer if your friend has to step away? You'd be a lot better off leaving less up in the air.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Realistically, there is no hard and fast definition of ethical monetisation, in general as long as the need to spend money decreases the more you play, that is a good sign (as I outlined in the video). The additional revenue is going to maintaining the server and towards more gamemode development, as well as some more profit for me and the other owner obviously

[@colejosephalexanderkashay683]

​@@TheMisterEpic You might have seen my other comment, but making a profit from the server is the wrong attitude. Pay your devs a fair wage for the effort they put in. However, you shouldn't be making money for yourself from both the server and KZbin videos about it.

[@DeadlyTurnHere]

@@colejosephalexanderkashay683 WHAT!?!? A server is a huge time investment and you clearly don't understand that. To keep the server up, running, and fun deserves to at least get something. If you had your way he wouldn't get money for his hard work right @TheMisterEpic

[@colejosephalexanderkashay683]

@@DeadlyTurnHere he literally is making a boatload of money from KZbin. He doesn't need to be charging 100+ usd for pay to win ranks

[@laserray01]

That poll isn't really a good metric to measure by, considering people are likely to lie. Especially those under 13, since if they confess to that they can be banned from discord

[@TheMisterEpic]

The poll was entirely anonymous, so nobody could see who voted what. But regardless, theres no better way we can collect such data

[@larrymcgee8775]

​@@TheMisterEpicthen why even include it as data if it can't be relied on?

[@TheMisterEpic]

Because it's the best data we have and still provides interesting insights

[@LilacMonarch]

@@TheMisterEpic insights aren't valuable if they're incorrect

[@ender2969]

​@@LilacMonarchwho said they're incorrect there's no proof it is and the people voted themselves

[@LimaW4444]

Smart lad, take down the competition and then make ur own server p2w, actual masterclass

[@badgooglereviews1351]

Some f2p friendly perks may be: - commands for auction from anywhere; f2p players can go to the shops by foot/waypoints while server supporters can access an auction/shops with a simple command - shop plots; f2p players will only be allowed chests, item frames and signs while supporting players are able to use any blocks for their shops (for decoration) - shop filters (?); filter items from a list I have no idea I don't play Mc anymore

[@badgooglereviews1351]

Early access to new and developing features; supporters are able to experience and give feedback to upcoming updates. This is nice BC of the rpg genre (Almost every rpg with community communication has this)

[@badgooglereviews1351]

Favoriting players/shops/anything really; allowing supporting players to pin specific '_____' for easier access

[@badgooglereviews1351]

Creating new skins/textures; supporters can create and submit item skins/textures that can be only accessed with supporter (verify submissions of) (Idea from monumenta)

[@badgooglereviews1351]

Server wide item crate; (wynncraft; no "advantage" but promotes gamba... Does make money tho...)

[@badgooglereviews1351]

Server wide anything; exp, blocks, boost, etc

[@greenleaffisk7166]

Being a consistant fan of your channel over the last year and a half, I had a hard time not instantly disliking this video, but as a game dev, I must say that you have raised a bunch of good points about the pay-to-win market. I am a huge fan of clash of clans because it may ask for a lot of money, but it can also be enjoyed in its entirety free-to-play. I hope this comment does not come across negative because it is not. The video made me a little sad, but *sigh*, you have earned a like from me.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Thanks for giving it a fair go

[@Random-yd4px]

Bro og network was always p2w wym

[@corydonk]

I had the opposite reaction. The longer I watched the worse I felt about it :/

[@relic374]

as someone who's been watching since he had 4.6k I agree

[@JP-dv7rf]

Le sigh

[@formidafrog]

Man, the like to dislike ratio on this video is rough 💀

[@CodeModCreator]

Yeah 💀

[@Nichtdu-rt4ih]

28:49 note that this doesn't makes sense from a statistical standpoint. Just because your players also play other servers doesn't mean other servers players play your server. Basically all bananas are fruits but not all fruits are bananas but a bit more complicated.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Well it sort of does, as they also play other servers and then come to mine after. It's basically the same

[@potat2707]

i do think that being somewhat p2w is ok. a good example is wynncraft. it is technically p2w with its xp and loot bombs, but if a bomb is used, anyone in the same world gets the effects of the bomb meaning it isnt really an unfair advantage

[@GuyAwesomest]

As a long-time viewer who has been watching for a couple years now, I've noticed your change in mind on the subject of pay-to-win servers for a while now and I always had a slight thought in my mind that you became less and less settled with the idea of duping on P2W servers as time went on; it seemed to me like you were in some sort of trap. I may not have had the exact idea as to why your content made me feel this way, but now I can fully understand why thanks to this video. Thanks for coming forward, Epic, it means a lot to me to see people grow and learn from their past mistakes. You have definitely shown your ability to adapt and improve in this video. Keep at it man! I hope you learn more great things in the future! Much love

[@wise1615]

Bro made his server a target now 😂

[@wise1615]

@@Lachrymogenic it’s inspiring me to hack on it now 😂-it also means less views because he became the very thing he’s been trying to stop for years

[@qed7356]

@@wise1615 Bro, you are proving TheMisterEpic's point on the community.

[@wise1615]

@@qed7356 but do you notice that he’s loosing views now

[@qed7356]

@@wise1615 yes, due to “betraying” the P2W community. Your comments made me assume that you missed the point of the full video.

[@wise1615]

@@qed7356 maybe but he’s joined the dark side 😭

[@Real_aquatic]

The if you can’t beat them join them strategy isn’t always the Answer

[@epicmemelord2258]

Really hoping this is massive clickbait, because I’m not liking where this is going

[@mooing_cowmilk]

27:36 uhh, discord doesn't allow users under 13, so up to 10% of them self reported themselves.... (technically if the bought under 13 but then joined discord much later, then that option is legal)

[@TheMisterEpic]

Well that's why I made the poll anonymous lol

[@pf6137]

​@@TheMisterEpicthat also allows for survivorship bias? Like do you think every 13 year old or younger that does watch you and plays Minecraft too also has your discord? Or even participated in your poll?

[@dot_boi]

If you are a technical enough person you can host your own server for far cheaper than paying a provider, at the expense of your time and spending a decent amount of money on a server. ~$500+ in hardware one time compared to the $100 a month prices you were displaying. The most expensive bit would be internet, I would HIGHLY not recommend hosting it on your private home network, purchase another connection to your house or if you are a huge high income server, purchase some office space and keep the Minecraft server on its own separate subnet if you want to be secure and don't want your personal files and data at risk. Other than that your monthly costs are determined by your ISP and electricity cost in most places electricity cost for a single server would be >$10 a month. My ISP here can get you 250 MBS up/down of fiber for only $50 a month for even just 100 MBS up/down for $20 a month which is still honestly overkill for a minecraft server.

[@TheMisterEpic]

I live in australia and have to host in America, as thats where all the players are, so not possible unfortunately

[@IsKevin]

I use to run a Non pay to win server not long ago. I had a small team and made the server for the hype for owning my first network. We had ranks in where people can purchase their cosmetics and mounts. My devs believed our server was making a ton of money but in reality, I was spending too much money a month to keep the server a float. I work at a pharmacy at above minimum wage rate and there's no way I can still afford to keep something up for that long. Our server was averaging 20 to 30 players and high peaks of 50. I could not afford advertising because of how expensive it was. So I resulted in trying to stream my server as much as I can to keep the player base up. In doing so, I felt burnt out and was wasting time and energy. This results into not putting enough time into development of my server. So I took time off streaming to work on the server. Overtime the player counts dropped, and I made the decision to close down our server. Owning a server isn't easy and you definitely need funding of some kind to keep things alive. To pay developers, plugins and advertising. I speak from experience because everything that MisterEpic is saying is true. Non Pay to Win servers struggle and to think that some minimum wage job can pay for it is ridiculous.

[@JogVodka]

well it was an interesting run while it lasted. watched the video up to the "exploitation of children" part (which is my main concern) and heavily disagree with solely relying on your own server's statistics. I definitely know from interacting a lot of people that there's a good amount of children falling for these things (especially where the game's demo are children). If I'm not okay with other younger demo games having these exploitative things than i shouldn't turn my eyes away from Minecraft servers doing the same thing.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Well we have no other statistics to rely on/look to which is the issue.

[@Jengamouse]

​@@TheMisterEpicThe thing is, even the stats you do have don't really paint the picture you wanted them to. Only 40% of the responses said they were over 18. Older teens do have enough autonomy to make their own purchases but I still don't like the idea of them having access to ptw of any kind. The fact that so many responses were from minors shows that ptw, ethical or not, works the best on them. That is the age when kids start having their own money to spend but they do not yet have the responsibility of an adult. Making money off of that doesn't sit right with me.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Pay to win works on individuals regardless of age, my point was that its not young kids stealing their parents credit cards as is so commonly believed. Teenagers gain the autonomy to spend their money as you said, by your logic they shouldn't be purchasing anything because they are not responsible, yet they do, because thats how they learn.

[@Jengamouse]

@@TheMisterEpic There is a difference between purchasing a game or a piece of clothing or food and ptw purchases. I myself did buy these kinds of time saving packages on mobile games when I was younger. I would not do that now that I'm older and know better than to waste my money on those games. I'm not particularly upset that I did that at the time but it is a fact that it worked on me because I was younger. You know, I don't actually disagree with you on crates being the only real problem. I do think that what you're doing is much more ethical. But those stats showed that ptw is purchased more by under 18s and I don't like that you used it to solely focus on the commonly joked about idea that it's all kids stealing their parents credit card.

[@limpfall13]

Seems like the bigger system of how this all works is broken…that the issue isn’t just pay to win servers being big but rather than it’s so overly costly and expensive to even run a server in the first place. And it seems clear things arnt played very fair either.

[@foul-fortune-feline]

Yea I mean as long as capitalism is a thing it's gonna hurt art and community

[@lordcola-3324]

IMO pay to win is inherently unethical. There is no such thing as an ethically monetized P2W server. "Ethical pay to win" is an oxymoron.

[@TheMisterEpic]

How is pay to win unethical? Nobody is being deceived, nobody is being forced to spent money and nobody is being preyed on if done ethically.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Your uncles ark server likely is significantly smaller in size then mine, as well as much cheaper to run, and therefore is not comparable

[@TheMisterEpic]

? Am I wrong?

[@balticthegrapher]

​@@TheMisterEpicyea

[@DJEevee257]

P2W just needs to be balanced accordingly. Skip some grinding? Okay, fine. Bring items and advantages that free to players can't have? Mehhh, if you want to be as OP as possible fine. But not for me. Got gambling? I won't play your server then, you're scum of the earth. It's a balance that needs to be struck well and efficiently. You can be pay to win but also ethical. You tell the player what they're going to get, and you make the pricing fair for the stuff you're offering. It's not crazy difficult, but always take player feedback to check if you're offering too much or if your balance is just right.

[@Escen1]

you have become the very thing you swore to destroy

[@epicgamertool]

Achievement unlocked: Villain origin story To be real though I agree with your thoughts you shared with us in the video. You are not a bad person and you deserve to bring home a profit for your work. Keep grinding, your server will still be OG.

[@flamedramon68]

I actually agree with you on this Nothing in life is free. In a perfect world people wouldn't need to pay for servers and just run things the way you want and create whatever server they want. We don't though, in reality you need to spend money to keep passions like servers up and running Pay-to-win, if done right, is a good way of making ends meet, and keeping servers up and running. It's the gambling and crates that need to be ditched

[@Piipperi800]

honest question: Hypixel stayed without being P2W for a long ass time., how did they survive? Doesn't that just prove if a server doesn't make enough money without being P2W, that it's not a good enough server for people to spend their money on non-P2W features?

[@LuluTheCorgi]

Yep You get so much more money being predatory tho so just ignore that bit

[@Markandpreston]

because hypixel is a big server?

[@Piipperi800]

@@Markandpreston yeah and they also have to pay a lot more than og-network for hosting it. So just because it's big, it shouldn't really matter.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Hypixel was a minigames server where cosmetic microtransactions work better. Furthermore, the server is just from a different era, many players heard of the server as hypixel was a known mapmaker at the time and joined because of that (as I did), so they did have a lot of free advertising in that regard. Hypixel is pay to win now though, check out SkyBlock

[@Piipperi800]

@@TheMisterEpic but you also have a lot of free advertising from your KZbin channel? And I guess my question now is why can’t your server have cosmetics that people want to buy? I don’t really play MC survival but I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possible to add non-P2W microtransactions to it.

[@aiodensghost8645]

I dont care if its ethical or not, its still Pay 2 Win. If it were Pay to Play I wouldn't mind, *as I already do this with the games I buy.* If I *ever* end up on your server, expect me to do what you do to others and *dupe.*

[@mathyw]

You can tell aiodensghosr8645 is a scary guy because he used bold letters and a period

[@robotic1491]

honestly, i dont think pay2win is a good way, but i do agree the only reason people buy ranks is for actual advantage. and i definitely think developers and server owners deserve a payout for their hard work. yes its not an "actual job" but its still something they put their time and effort into, its just like art. if artists get money (which they definitely should) so should server devs/owners.

[@cewla3348]

it's as much a job as a game dev?

[@himynameishelen]

I disagree on ranks: I play on one of the servers mentioned in the video, and most people only upgrade their ranks for the clout of being a "high rank"- in a sea of white text it's a lot easier to follow in chat when you're talking to people with a coloured name/rank, so it becomes easier to get noticed/make friends. So the primary advantage is social, rather than gameplay based.

[@himynameishelen]

@@zenos3080 For real- If something is earning you money in exchange for labour, it's a job- no matter how minor or "fun" the work is.

[@robotic1491]

@@zenos3080 bro you didnt read any of what i said? i said its not considered a job, as even themisterepic and the other owner are doing, its something you do on the side. but for all the work and and resources you put into it, you SHOULD get earnings fitting of how hard you try. i am on the same side as you..

[@kileak6]

My prediction before watching, since Mojang refuses to do anything about the pay to win problem, we're starting a wave of pushing pay to win servers to the brink of Destruction and force mojang to do something about it by force Edit: I was only partially right

[@user-ey2om4qb9e]

My prediction the guys has to live

[@Kirill17]

P2w with reasonable well integrated systems are fine. So long as u aren't exploiting or abusing its p normal. I'd say a good example of fair p2w is hypixel skyblock.

[@user-ey2om4qb9e]

@@Kirill17 yeah as long as uts not predatory its ok

[@nekitbobzhantsev3686]

So the lesson from this video is that I should make a Minecraft voting site instead?

[@colejosephalexanderkashay683]

How the mighty have fallen... Im sorry, but i cannot agree with your conclusion. This should be just a passion project, and your are making money anyways. If you lose passion, let the server die. Since you have chosen this path, please pay your devs a fair wage but don't make a dime on it yourself- reinvest ALL proceeds into the server or else donate them.

[@TheMisterEpic]

The thousands of people playing the server regularly don't want us to "just let it die"

[@OfficialMa1201]

@@TheMisterEpic then ask them for donations if they care so much

[@Asurilm]

I know the server needs money, but doesn't this break the whole premice of the server? Also, I kinda saw this coming.

[@TheMisterEpic]

Check out the video, you'll see

[@TheMisterEpic]

I literally do though? I said my server is no longer going to be a non pay to win one, but an ethically monetized one instead. The premise was originally to be non pay to win

[@Kattalanonyt]

Ethics are subjective. If you have to resort to methods that you are not fully satified with, why run a server in the first place? Servers like hypixel, 2b2t, MMC, etc all run without any monetary transactions that even come close to p2w. If you can't make money even with the parasocial advantage that incentivises players to spend money, then why even make a server? At least try to be creative and come up a server idea that hasn't been done 100s of times. Maybe then people will acutally have a reason to spend money on your server since you can actually stand out. You don't have to stick with something just because your passionate about it, espeically if the thingyour passionate about turns out to be terrible.@@TheMisterEpic

[@chickenofsteel2151]

As an admin on a P2W server I have watched your content hoping one day a video like this would be released. Keeping a server running without P2W is pretty much impossible on any large scale. Sure there are servers out there that have 10-20 players on that can handle being non P2W but anything larger REQUIRES some sort of way to make a decent amount of money. The main server I am an admin on barely breaks even WITH p2w mechanics. Every time you would release a duping video we would get hit with dupers trying to do the same thing on our server because it was P2W so I am so happy now we hopefully won't have to deal with that as much anymore.

[@the_terraria_guy9010]

the monumenta in question:

[@fanafelgminecraft5789]

i mean hypixel doesnt have any p2w other than booster cookies on skyblock but thats about it

[@GAMER32231]

@@fanafelgminecraft5789 actually I’m like 72% sure skywars has crates though

[@fanafelgminecraft5789]

@@GAMER32231 from last i checked it does but i dont think you can buy the things needed to use it tho i might be wrong havent played in years

[@Sur3sT]

@@fanafelgminecraft5789you have to think its also hypixel thats like saying fortnite isn’t p2w so why cant this indie game with 2 active players

[@lasercraft32]

So basically... its not "Pay2Win servers are broken" but rather, the _system_ is broken.

[@kryzethx]

Alternatively, "capitalism working as intended"

[@lasercraft32]

@@kryzethx That's what it says on Capitalism's bug report. 💀

[@SloudPL-old]

I tried making a non p2w server(still trying) for few years, there was always problem that you need to pay for the hosting, if you can program then you will need a lot of time to make anything, and you can't even make ads about your server because you don't have money, when you trying to run a server with fiber and get power from solar panels you still have problems like static ip, security, other stuff and it still costs you money. Its imposibble for small projects to get any money because with no players there is no money and there is no players because players don't even know that your server exists.

[@cheezballz8146]

So you're main argument if I understand is that the bad p2w in servers are crates which are pretty much gambling and the other p2w aspects of these servers are all good? If that is you're argument it is dead wrong because as you said the main reason the gambling crates are bad is because it entices children to spend money but guess what, so does the other stuff because imagine a kid playing on a p2w server going along then they see this person with tons of op stuff that they didn't have to work for and is way better than the things they got legit. In that situation so many kids I know would be enticed to buy it themselves because that kind of stuff appeals to children and exploits them based on their impulsiveness because when they see they can get a full set of OP tools and armor for say 20$ what kid wouldn't want to get it immediately.

[@not-nottyler6411]

His whole argument is “this is worse so I am not as bad”

[@TheMisterEpic]

This line of thinking is ridiculuous because you get "enticed" to purchase stuff just in your day to day life regardless. A kid watches tv where they are enticed by ads to purchase stuff, they watch youtube and get enticed by ads to purchase stuff, they walk through a supermarket and are enticed to purchased stuff. Gambling is an actual addiction which messes with the reward centres of your brain, significantly different from a clear cut and dry "spend x money, get x thing" purchase.

[@LuluTheCorgi]

​@@TheMisterEpica child can't drive to Walmart and buy the thing they just saw an ad for on TV, Minecraft Servers shouldn't be allowed to accept money from anyone under the age of 18 in the first place, cuz that would be exploiting children

[@WDWhat-sn9iw]

you've convinced me for your side of the argument, i've watched through the entire vid. i'm happy that you're doing it ethically, and i pray you make the big bucks to utterly annihilate the bad servers

[@TheMisterEpic]

Lol thanks for giving the video a fair go

[@erviplayer]

This AI generated content is getting wild

[@qed7356]

sadly, this isn't AI generated😭😭

[@ReVision.AI.]

Will you make another "Duping p2w sever" after this? this is a funny question

[@lordz19]

So if I dupe on your server, it’s justified?

[@TheMisterEpic]

Only if you make a banger video

[@lordz19]

@@TheMisterEpicYou’re on

[@potato61192]

This is a very interesting discussion but I am curious about something. Wouldn't the points about an Ethically P2W Server vs a Non-Ethically (Crate P2W) server be the same as a F2P vs P2W server? That basically the non-crate server will still be at a disadvantage financially (Since I assume crates are highly lucrative) although I guess a bit less. Although I am curious now, if you still have that data from that research you did on Monetization, how much of those P2W Server's income came from Crates / Keys and how much came from Ethical Monetization ? I hope you make a video on Breakdown of how much % of the revenue those servers you researched came from Ethical and Non Ethical sources or maybe just crates and non crates to make it simpler.

[@ItsMias_]

7:53 "50-200 players can cost anywhere from 200 - 350$" This is so incredibly incorrect, server specs required severely depends on server type, server software, plugins used and optimizations. I am disappointed to see you generalise all servers to one of the most specs demanding server types like this. (This also discourages new starting out server creators as they will be scared by the expensive monthly costs which are wildly inaccurate.)

[@TheMisterEpic]

Yes you do lmfao, especially in America. You clearly haven't talked to server owners or had experience running a server that size

[@ItsMias_]

@@TheMisterEpic it severely depends on your type of server, I though of rephrasing my comment which I will do later as the current one is a bit aggressive. If you have an open world SMP or a gen server has a large change in server specs needed but generalising everything having 50-250 players needing a 200$+ host is objectively incorrect.

[@nikart8984]

Completely understandable, staff wants/needs a proper reward for their hard word.

[@nathanwilkins6107]

There are degrees of P2W. There’s: 1. you can’t possibly survive or have fun without spending money 2. Come gamble on items you can’t get anywhere else! 3. Come buy a kit to give you a leg up and skip a few levels, but you can also grind for it. 4. Get some small perks and quality of life enhancements in exchange for some money. Useful, but not a huge advantage. 3 and 4 are pretty much fine. I’m going to check out your server and see where you land. Knowing your track record I expect you’ll be upfront and transparent about what purchases do and what advantages they provide. Edit: after watching the whole video, it looks like you fall around a 3 which imo is arguably not even true “pay to win”. If you can get everything honestly without any unreasonable grinds, then you’re in the clear to sell it. I hope people don’t change their opinion of you, but you’re spot on with the difference between predatory pay to win and ethical monetization. One point I don’t think you touched on is the fact that there are people who *want* to support your server financially, some bonuses are a nice thank you for that support as long as they’re not unfair to the average player.

[@ArrowMaster_]

Im fine as long as the sold items are still obtainable as a non p2w. Like if you can get the same stiff but just have to grind more, I'm fine with it

[@DustedMain]

i sure hope you keep making long videos, I have to actively search for long form content because all youtube recommends is short form videos of less than 3 minutes, which is just way too little, especially since I watch them while doing lengthy and boring tasks such as building, modeling, animating, etc. Anyways, I completely understand your reasoning and hope for the success of og network.

[@RedxAx2]

On my end, i own the type of servers that realize on resource packs cosmetics, i sell creats that have some 3D skins for weapon, tools, and more, and I don't even know if i can continue, my local player base is not the type who spends money on games, which is so hard on me.

[@uhhmir]

if you cant compete in a market while being ethical, the correct solution is to withdraw out of the market, not "become a little unethical". there are just too many same-y minecraft servers. also, whats to say that in a few months you wouldn't come back again and say "non-lootbox servers dont make enough money🥺🥺 we have to integrate crates now"

[@Puggylord316]

He made sure none of the old server game modes are affected. If he did add loot boxes the server would instantly tank. And being realistic, being a little unethical is like nothing in market fields. Like 99% of top business's are incredibly unethical, so having a tiny bit of bad, in order to get enough money to be a contender against the evil, isn't terrible.

[@uhhmir]

@@Puggylord316 its a slippery slope. most businesses dont suddenly stop at "just a little unethical"

[@Puggylord316]

@@uhhmir I know, but its not that bad as of right now, and we can't judge him for what might happen and not what has.

[@mathyw]

@@uhhmirso you just decided he’s gonna make the server more p2w and started hating on him for it?

[@Gr0ot]

Shout out to the Non-P2W servers that don’t have a YT channel with over 600k people…that still keep their servers Non-P2W. Crazy, no excuses for them. No cap. Just say you want money, call it a day, no need to make a 30 minute video.

[@TheMisterEpic]

So you didn't watch the video before commenting I see

[@YuutaTogashi0707]

I wish KZbin would let me see the reply

[@UpsideDownCycle]

@@YuutaTogashi0707 " So you didn't watch the video before commenting I see "

[@YuutaTogashi0707]

Thanks@@UpsideDownCycle

[@TheMisterEpic]

If I just wanted money, I would have made the server unethically monetised with gambling so it would make even more.

[@PixelatingStars]

They really need to make that EULA less vague

[@gaetanbouthors]

The real issue with P2W was never the eula or the kids but just that its unfair and ruins the game experience, which you fail to adress entirely. Also the arguments just aren't cutting it. Like that whole ad hominem section criticizing the anti-P2W doesn't change anything about P2W being bad or not, or justifying the server becoming P2W. You're in your right to make it P2W, and if thats what it takes to pay the costs then so be it, but it is and should be a disappointment to your playerbase, and most importantly i think making a 35 minute video arguing that it makes sense for any other reason feels dishonest.

[@TheMisterEpic]

I did address it in my ethical monetisation section. As I said, most pay to win servers these days, the need to pay to win decreases the more you play. You are right, it's not ever going to be 100% fair (as I also said in my video), but it's the only way we will see any positive change

[@TheMisterEpic]

By your logic there would never ever be any non pay to win servers.

[@oAlwix]

even for a longer video you still manage to keep me watching the video and not just doze off and click on a different video. good job mr epic, keep up the good work!

[@realzguardian]

I agree with the video but the discord pole is obviously not accurate, do you really think an adult would spend money on a Minecraft server? And do you really think that kids won't lie about their age online?

[@TheMisterEpic]

Yes an adult would, go into my discord and ask who the servers top donors are... And furthermore, the poll was anonymous, nobody could see who responded to which result

[@realzguardian]

​@@TheMisterEpic Even if an adult would, the percentage of kids who are donators is much greater than the percentage of adult donators and you 𝗖𝗔𝗡𝗡𝗢𝗧 determine the age of your donators just based on a discord poll