The War in Heaven | Fate & Fabled

[@GravesRWFiA]

dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria!

[@Catman3131]

MORRIGAN

[@sadie1606]

I know a family with many cats and two dogs, use to be five and they all live in harmony. The cats like to lick dog ears and in return the dog lets the kitties cuddle with him.

[@themysteriousunknownrevealed]

Everything was fine until our system was shut down by Wally Wick here...

[@verepainelistens1459]

Who are you gonna call

[@Mr2squids]

Well, that's what I heard...!😂

[@corvinalevanthi]

this video couldn't have been posted at a more perfect time than this. just as i was in the throes of restless doubts about my english literature major and had no motivation whatsoever to study for tomorrow's paradise lost lecture, seeing this video reminded me of how passionate i once was about my major. perhaps i should take this as a wake up call for myself.

[@RidireOiche]

Prometheus the fire bringer is another light bringer who was cast out and punished by the main god of the mythology from which his story features.

[@ThePinkPvp]

Interesting then that the predominant view of Prometheus in antiquity was as a revered figure despite his being the representation of departure from the gods

[@harrisonfletcher9886]

Thank you for explaining that Lucifer is not the Judeo-Christian devil. It's such a common misconception.

[@bbadam19]

"Satan, also known as the Devil, and sometimes also called Lucifer in Christianity"

[@colbymullenix9140]

7:04 It’s good to see Hazbin Hotel being used as a recent pop cultural example for this topic.

[@LuisSierra42]

Even though it sucks

[@hab0272]

It,s very relevant. I also like how Hazbin makes one think critically about good and evil

[@JC_Hope]

I agree. I was just gonna comment about that. Such a timely reference!

[@blanket4763]

@@LuisSierra42L+ratio

[@colbymullenix9140]

@@LuisSierra42 perhaps, to an extent, but with STYLE!

[@onerayoflight1557]

You might want to expand your comparative religion studies to Hinduism. There are various Gods and Goddesses who are involved in similar battles. Durga combats evil and demonic forces. Krishna kills Demons. Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu, and there is one story that Vishnu reincarnated as Kalki will appear at the end of the world.

[@wimvanderstraeten6521]

John Milton in the movie The Devil's Advocate (1997) is my favorite depiction of the devil in fiction ("I'm a fan of man!"). The name is an obvious reference to the author of Paradise Lost.

[@sapphirII]

Talking about the apple. I love the explaination in Shin Megami Tensei V. The throne of creation used to be fought over by the nahobinos, beings of infinite life and knowledge, and often changed who was the ruling god, when the god of law took possession, he decreed that there would be no more nahobinos beside him, stealing the knowledge from them and practically put them inside the tree, and regressing the other nahobinos into demons. When the first humans ate the fruit, they gained the knowledge, and got randomly passed down within humanity. Demons, seeking their lost knowledge preyed on humans. (although those that did found themselves into weak insificant creature while the decree was there) It changed when the leader of the forces of chaos killed god.

[@ReynaSingh]

it's fascinating to see the ways that translation can vastly change the meaning of a text, but underneath the language that we dress our ideas in, there could very well be a singular universal truth

[@loki2240]

Or it could just be mythology.

[@danvernier198]

That's a really weird thing to take a way from finding out about all the funny cross references and mistranslations in ancient mythology. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that it's very, very arbitrary which of these stories happen to reach your ears as a kid.

[@thedragondemands5186]

Morgoth lusted after the Flame Imperishable and sought the Creator's Secret Fire, and so he sowed discord amongst the harmony of the Music

[@Catman3131]

Order our of chaos ...Morrigan

[@pawned79]

#MelkoWasRight

[@pawned79]

#MelkoWasRight

[@nataliemueller622]

Melkor brought into the world of arda balance which is the duel nature of erü

[@devindaniels1634]

Eru did tell Morgoth that not could happen or be created that did not have its utmost source in him. So yes, everything good and evil comes from Eru.

[@kimberlyterasaki4843]

I think there's also an interesting argument that as modern generations move away from organized religion, Lucifer and many Devil-like figures have become less antagonistic and more anti-heroic. The Lucifer TV show and Hazbin Hotel both portray Lucifer as a rebel who was unfairly punished by the universe for daring to question the way things are. Similarly, Lilith has become a bit of a feminist icon, having refused to marry and submit to Adam and being punished for it, much like how generations of women have been punished by the church.

[@bloodmorel]

The interesting thing about the Lucifer TV show is that it tried to address the purpose of the devil and hell, beyond antagonism and punishment. Which I thought was very clever, if the starting point for the mythos is a loving god.

[@WspiDigits]

Except they were anti authoritarian and anti anybody but me. These shows are made by certain people, maybe for certain people...

[@ThemermaidPearl]

@@WspiDigitsthis is honestly such a funny way to see it as you took the character's main flaw that he eventually grows out of as the meaning of the show. Anti-Authoritarian views are part of a rebel's point of view so it's obvious it's in the show.

[@festerbestertester1284]

Yes, you're right. But origins of Lilith may be found much earlier, in Sumerian mythology.​@@WS-dd8ow

[@andrescastillo7328]

Interesting never thought it was based on satirical work

[@rami_ungar_writer]

As a Jewish person, you picked up our philosophy pretty well. Yeah, The Accuser isn't a specific angel. More like a roll some angels play from time to time. They make great prosecutors, though.

[@jessicajayes8326]

Like opponents in debate!

[@erinmac4750]

Mentioning prosecutors made me think of lawyers. Which then made me think of all those references and jokes about lawyers and hell. 😈

[@christophersnedeker]

Then what was the serpent in the garden?

[@rami_ungar_writer]

@@christophersnedeker assuming those events actually occurred, probably just a talking snake.

[@christophersnedeker]

@@rami_ungar_writer That seems to call for more explanation then a fallen angel. The Hebrew is actually able to be translated 3 ways depending on the vowels added, as serpent, deciver and shining one.

[@suzannestrickland1586]

I am loving watching the pantheon come together. I also think you did a pretty good job of covering this topic. As always, I look forward to more

[@RictusHolloweye]

Storm of the Century had a great line regarding Job and the trials he was put through. Something about Job asking for an explanation and God replying "I guess there's just something about you that pisses me off".

[@stacylitwin1466]

Love the videos separately, never even considered having both Dr Z & Dr McT together and ever since it has been a balm to my soul, keep 'em coming

[@Chaotic-Toast]

One of my favorite books series, His Dark Materials culminates in a full-on war in what the book calls The Kingdom of Heaven, which is full of angels, god (the Authority as he’s called) and all the heaven stuff except for the actual dead humans. The Kingdom of Heaven’s is attacking the newer, less authoritarian Republic of Heaven. So it almost flips the concepts of good and evil in the monotheistic abrahamic sense on their head while poking at the real-life harm that the church has had in history

[@The.Crystal.Clods.]

There are still practicing Zoroastrians alive today, kinda weird to have it grammatically spoken of in past tense.

[@M4TCH3SM4L0N3]

This is one of my greatest complaints about informational video channels like this one; unless they are explicitly taking the side of one religion, they all take a distinctly anthropological perspective on beliefs that continue to be important to a significant number of people in the world.

[@noway8259]

​@@M4TCH3SM4L0N3 What alternative would you suggest?

[@PokhrajRoy.]

2:13 “Oh f-ate and fabled.”

[@suzannestrickland1586]

Lol.

[@MiguelBalaraw]

Loved that Doc Z was gonna say it.😂😂🎉🎉

[@lapispyrite6645]

This came out at just the right time. I’ve recently been working on writing a creation myth for my fantasy world, and I’ve been delving into Hebrew to try and understand the meaning of lots of the terms we use nowadays in Christianity

[@hive_indicator318]

Kipp Davis and Dan McClellan might be channels to check out for you. Both know a lot about the original language and how the terms were seen back then

[@Bubblesthewitch]

As a practicing pagan if I met someone who worked with your pantheon I would be terrified of them. Also Emily’s side of the list is so much more unhinged.

[@pbsstoried]

Yeah...not sure what that says about me. But hopefully all will be revealed in our utopia finale!-*Dr. Z*

[@PokhrajRoy.]

4:40 “I don’t care for Job.”

[@feelin_fine]

Best book of the Bible frankly!

[@erinmac4750]

I didn't think too much about it until I was married and had kids. Then, I'm like, WTF!? Killing family members over a bet on Job's piousness!? Nope, I'm going to have some words with someone at the Pearly Gates! ✌️😸🍀

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

Gotta admit, Moiya and Emily are amassing very interesting dodgeball teams. Moiya: "I think I'll go with Hippolyta." Emily: 'Oh? Well I pick Jesus."

[@jessicajayes8326]

It seems like the idea of satan is almost like an intrusive thought. What if Adam and Eve were not tempted by a serpent, but by curiousity?

[@skh-22]

Just want to say I enjoy all the Fate & Fabled videos, they are so well done!

[@MusicFangTeaLover]

Huh... I noticed a surprising lack of robo pharos and psychic space frogs in an episode called '' The war in heaven''

[@thedragondemands5186]

Fiery the angels fell - deep thunder rolled round their shores - burning with the fires of Orc...

[@coolnegative]

There are many who think that the "3 wisemen" or "magi" in the nativity text were actually Zoarastrian Priests. The Zoaraster Prophets had a prophecy almost identical to the narrative concerning the birth of a Christ figure.

[@amym.4823]

Oh no, Dr. Z, it's not unlimited wine that comes along with those bread sticks, it's dried fish! 🎣

[@RictusHolloweye]

Yeah, the wine is limited by water supplies.

[@NicholasHay1982]

Unlimited bread and wine, but no figs.

[@hannahchristinah]

Pretty cool to hear all these different takes on the age-old good/evil conflict. As a Latter-Day Saint, the words "war in heaven" mean something rather different than what is described in this video. The book of Moses (from the Pearl of Great Price) provides yet another interesting take on this same story, one that I and other "Mormons" align with.

[@loki2240]

I'm Native American. Tell me about the Lamanites. I'm also African American. Tell me about how black men couldn't "hold the priesthood" until 1978. I'm a man who supports equal rights for everyone. Tell me about how women still can't "hold the priesthood."

[@feelin_fine]

The LDS take is largely an evolving improvisation on the material covered in the Hebrew Bible and (perhaps more importantly) the Book of Enoch. It's just additional fan fic in a predictable pattern to illuminate the obscure in light of shifting cultural contexts.

[@hannahchristinah]

@@feelin_fine "fanfic" or not, I say it deviates enough from the longer tradition to at least be worth noting in a comments section! Whether or not one believes it, it's a fascinating take.

[@TheSensationalMr.Science]

something I have also found is that the Hebrew word for sin is "khata" (pronounced HA-TA) and is meaning "to miss the mark", and taking that we are made in the image of god; sin is merely the failure to be like god as we are made in his image. something I thought interesting when thinking about scripture. Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!

[@LEON-Cyborg]

Yes! A new video to watch! 😍

[@MonkeysEmperor]

Gotta be one of my favorite YT channels 😊

[@EayuProuxm]

1:17 - 1:27 Whoever's doing the voice acting on dragon satan needs an Oscar

[@DergonBaals]

And here I thought this was all about Robot Skeletons fighting Space Frogs and Space Elves.

[@andrescastillo7328]

It's interesting to learn how the concept of god and evil can be seen in many different cultures and religion 🤔

[@robbabcock_]

Another great episode!

[@Catman3131]

MORRIGAN....Dr Z looks like my Teacher in High school ❤😂🎉😊

[@smiththeinspiringanimator7042]

And nobody can forget about Divine Comedy! :D

[@esteemedmortal5917]

🎶Hell is forever and it’s meant to suck a lot 🎶

[@M4TCH3SM4L0N3]

1:02 I'm stunned and dismayed to have to point this out, but it is the Book of Revelation (singular), not revelations. Apocalyptic text is a specific genre of religious text in Abrahamic religions, and it is all about prophecy in its original sense of unveiling or making clear. The author is not claiming to be witnessing some vision of the future, but rather the spiritual drama that unfolds all around us, typically invisible to mortal eyes. It is meant to "reveal" the spiritual significance of known events on Earth. It is NOT now, nor ever was, a collection of revelations about anything but that.

[@MaryamMaqdisi]

I would watch a sitcom with these hosts lmao, amazing

[@2IDSGT]

For a second, I thought PBS was getting into 40K lore. 😆

[@CAP198462]

I’m reasonably certain the war in heaven was between the Necrontyr, C’tan and the Great Old Ones, Aeldari, and Krorks

[@mremu4358]

Emperor is that u?

[@CAP198462]

@@mremu4358 I prefer Man-peror, please.

[@mremu4358]

@@CAP198462 of course my Man-Peror

[@julianparsons3027]

7:03 “…but the breadth of these stories are what makes them so useful.” Useful… riiiiiggggghhhht. Well, at least Seneca would agree.

[@WhiteLongSword7]

I can't tell if Dr. Z's shirt is about angels or alchemy, but it's pretty cool.

[@nicholasszabo5954]

Wait a minute... this isn't 40K.

[@Santander_wows]

Its ironicly that emperor is atheist But he also worship as a god

[@idrisa7909]

Minor quibble: i would not characterize Ha Satan that way. I would say its a title, usually held by an angel, that can also metaphorically apply to humans (iirc its used for King David once?). I would, however, characterize yetzer hara as an inclination to turn away from God that comes from anywhere.

[@Mordalon]

While it's common for Japanese fantasy role playing games to include random name drops from various myths and legends, it was cool to see in the recent game Granblue Fantasy Relink the name Angra Mainyu come up.

[@megamanx466]

Indeed. Final Fantasy games have usually been my favorites of JRPGs... though not some of the recent ones. 😅

[@Caterfree10]

My first encounter with Angra Mainyu was the superboss in Final Fantasy X/-2! It’s always neat learning the origins of various monsters and such when I learn more mythology. :>

[@Indie973]

As a catholic who is fascinated by the supernatural and whose mother watches supernatural I can concur this was quite the interesting video

[@vm9952]

You missed one critical part on heaven vs hell dual concept.. Manichaeism en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

[@skyden24195]

There is a particular passage in the Bible (New Testament) that I find exceptionally interesting, intriguing, compelling, and even a bit bemusing. That passage being of Matthew - 10:34. (edit: comment structure)

[@360.Tapestry]

i've never put much stock into creation myths and wars in heaven, etc etc etc... but while under the influence of psychedelics, i have received visions of some kind of ancient battle... like a prologue to modern living. it's all a blur, tho.... it felt like a retelling and yet a warning - a battle in the spirit realm will not necessarily look like the battles we have seen on the physical plane

[@loki2240]

Revelation reads like a bad psychedelic trip, too.

[@bbartky]

@@loki2240😂 I read that Thomas Jefferson, who was a deist, called it the ravings of a madman.

[@gracewilliams7476]

I love storied and as a christian this was so cool and interesting perspective to see!

[@mathieuleader8601]

love Milton's poem

[@neoream3606]

Oh my gosh I love this!

[@jacobshore5115]

Somehow I knew you’d reference Hazbin Hotel!

[@PokhrajRoy.]

In Hinduism, it was very simple. A prime God was created and it’s all his fault.

[@jdng86]

So it's like Christianity.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

@@jdng86 No, it has way more characters than the Marvel comics and they cause more chaos

[@darhaha3391]

Next time you see a Persian guy (Iran, Afghanistan or Tajikistan) you can thank them and their ancestors for all the stories involving Satan and good and evil dichotomy. You are welcome. 😊

[@tybproductions]

I am loving your channel! What is it that Angra Mainyu is depicted as? Is that a creative interpretation or is there textual validity to it?

[@DR_REDACTED]

I knew it (damn i read way too mutch on myths and legends)😅

[@sunny_muffins]

Do apples really grow in the deserts of southern Iraq? I mean it had to be another fruit originally, right? 🤨

[@philiplathrop9250]

According to some Jewish teachers it was in fact a fig fruit/leaf

[@covenawhite4855]

The apple was either a random popular fruit choice. Or it relates to the Greek Goddess Eris whose symbol was a golden apple but I can be wrong

[@PrincessOzaline]

Apple comes from a pun in latin. Malum (with different accents on the a) can be either evil or apple, and so Roman Christians came to associate the apple with the fruit in Genesis. There are several different Jewish takes, fig is one. My fave basically is G-d doesn't want us to know cause he doesn't want a whole species of fruit to become stigmatized.

[@Lexivor]

Wild apples originated in Kazakhstan, so they probably weren't in Mesopotamia back then.

[@Cardboardruna]

The point of the story is that it was a paradise though. Latitude and longitude don't matter when you have yaweh-magic

[@matthewskudzienski888]

Revelation 12:7-9 “And WAR broke out in heaven Michael and his angels fought with a dragon; and dragon and his angels fought but they did not Prevail, Nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.“ Revelation 12:7-9 “So the Great dragon was cast out, that Serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

[@kirbymarchbarcena]

There are things in the Lucifer tv series that me and my wife liked and disliked. We enjoyed binge watching it the first time but we agree that it is not worth watching multiple times. The same goes when we watched The Sandman, my wife has no knowledge about the comicbook version unlike me so she said it was "okay". I was really disappointed especially that Season of Mist will no longer be made

[@CausticLemons7]

The first war in heaven was when the Necrons declared war on the Old Ones.

[@stevekoller3314]

Do a Monstrum on Lucifer

[@Jay-ql4gp]

That was good, thank you!

[@demigog]

The Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you is subjective. I know people who would have things done to them but I wouldn't want them doing them to me, so I hope they don't subject me to the Golden Rule. Don't do unto others what you're wouldn't have others do unto you. Confucius said, when acting on behalf of your friend, do what your friend thinks is in their own best interest. So do unto others what they want done to them.

[@megamanx466]

Yeah... I don't think they accounted for sadism & masochism when coming up with that rule. 😅

[@ekulerudamuru]

Those Necrons man!

[@warhammer8867]

A Warhammer fan, I see your as a man of culture.

[@skybluskyblueify]

Small and unimportant correction: The Book of Revelation is not plural i.e. it is not The Book of Revelations. Just one revelation I guess.

[@francescocarlini7613]

Wasn't there another video of this series on Tiamat and Gunkel's Chaoskampf? That's the origin of the War in Heaven.

[@NapsWan]

"Imagine God is DJ Khaled" *God instructing Noah to bring a pair of animals onto the ark* "Another one"

[@-RONNIE]

Thanks for the video

[@thedragondemands5186]

Should intermittent Vengeance arm again his red right hand to plague us?

[@gregoryvn3]

"I aim to misbehave."

[@Valdagast]

What do you think of Michael Witzel's suggestion that all this (and stories from all over the world) comes from a set of Stone Age stories which were first told some 40,000 years ago? Seems nutty to me, but it's a very interesting read.

[@trevinbeattie4888]

Not quite the story I was expecting, but maybe that’s because the religion I was raised in has a rather unique dogma. In the mythology I was taught, long before the world was created God was going over his plans with the angels. Lucifer wanted to compel mankind to be good so they could all go to heaven, while Michael advocated allowing people the freedom to choose how they would behave so they could prove themselves worthy. A third of all the angels sided with Lucifer and the other two thirds sided with Michael in a great battle, the result of which all those who followed Lucifer were cast out and became devils. And that’s why people have free will (according to the story.)

[@youngmasterzhi]

And there was a war in heaven Where angel fought against demon In an epic pillow fight that lasted all night

[@connorthompson8376]

Was Milton the first fictional example of a war in heaven starting everything? Or was there a dogmatic material outside of the Bible that made the assertion of such a thing?

[@osvaldocortes4598]

I... think that picking Yeshua doesn't work well in a polytheistic setting, what with his (I'm paraphrasing here) "no one comes to the Father, except through me".

[@thatmixeddudetho]

Imagine having all the resources of PBS and the 21sr century internet and STILL get everything wrong

[@megamanx466]

Everything? No.

[@thewebsurfer2919]

Monstrum suggestion: Who is Van Helsing?

[@stephanzielinski7922]

Was the Albrecht Dürer fabric a custom job?

[@floresarts]

It's not the tree of knowledge. It's the tree of knowledge Of Good and Evil. Important detail.

[@jamestipton3342]

Don't put much stock into the king james, because it's off in translation.

[@johncliffalvarez6513]

So Ragnarok basically.

[@little_forest]

Does this oversimplified categorization of life in good and evil correlate with a one god believe system? Do ancient greeks, romans or precolumbian americans devide the world that simply in good and evil? And even though there is the concept of yin and yang from ancient china, this does not represent good and evil.

[@pandoraeeris7860]

I have a request: Can you do an episode on Discordianism next?

[@Queen1001N]

So, what would happen if the tallies were equal?

[@armelior4610]

The most successful "gritty reboot of a public domain story"

[@coolman6719]

I like the episode of the war in heaven but can you do the next episode of the Bible so you can Tell me There is a Logical explanation about the story ms dr.Emily zarka

[@GarGhuul]

Megaten fans represent!🎉

[@ts25679]

Why would a benevolent god create the evil they fight against in the first place?

[@megamanx466]

To spice things up a bit! He was bored. lol In seriousness, I've often wondered this same question. It's like setting up a bully to attack your child and letting that bully do whatever they want to your kid. Kind of lends credence to that we're in a videogame... if there is a god. 🤷‍♂

[@davidhand9721]

Job has to be one of my favorites because Satan is just up in heaven, chillin, betting someone else's life on God's ego.

[@lilap7989]

Dr. Z please feel free to drop the deets on that shirt.

[@benfranco3801]

Adam and Eve were not the first humans created. There were already people outside the garden

[@ME-rr5jq]

Tiamat, Morrigan & Jesus is a pretty wild combination lol

[@germanomagnone]

7:04 honestly I like more or less 50% of the "hazbin hotel": the characters (the way the characters are drawn, not so much their stories and their personalities) and idea of try too find a "good from a demon" , the remaining 50% is due to the fact that it is "adult only" cartoon: heavy language, massacres and "sensitive" topics and I add I'm not really a fan of musicals

[@rogersnick17]

Play Solium Infernum, everyone! Happy Thursday!

[@johnnyringo5777]

Damn, so many inaccuracies about so many faiths in one video