Peninsular War: British Cavalry - Brainless gallopers? (w/Mark Thompson)

[@christopher5723]

As a former modern day cavalryman, US 3d ACR, propper cavalry work, especially the recon and screening missions are always undervalued relitive to the charge or hasty/delibrate attack in modern parlance. A well executed attack will earn your colonel a promotion, as seen with the Battle of 73 Easting, while no one will remember solid ISR work that shapes the battlefield and diferentiates modern cavalry units from tank/armored formations.

[@redcoathistory]

Fair point well made 👍

[@bricktopmedic]

Brave Rifles! Aiyeeyah! Sr. Line Medic, Grim Troop 2/3 ACR

[@britishamerican4321]

Waterloo, the Union Brigade, was another example of an initially successful charge getting ahead of itself, charging too far, their horses getting winded, and then being counter-attacked and decimated.

[@redcoathistory]

Yes, good point. Thanks a lot.

[@urseliusurgel4365]

Even if all the troopers of the two British cavalry brigades were killed - they were not - it was a good exchange. Two thousand cavalrymen took at least three thousand French prisoners, undoubtedly killed a similar number, and repulsed an entire French corps together with its immediate cavalry support. In addition, it was reported that rows of French muskets were left on the ground, where they had been dropped by entire regiments to enable their owners to run away faster, so a proportion of the French survivors of D'Erlon's corps were of no further military use, as they had disarmed themselves. There are eyewitness accounts for the Royal Dragoons and the Greys describing that, following their charge, they were reorganised from their original three squadrons to two squadrons. Therefore a substantial number of troopers and sound horses had survived. Indeed, all regiments of both brigades saw severe episodes of action later in the battle, where they took considerable further casualties.

[@britishamerican4321]

@@urseliusurgel4365 Interesting, thanks

[@sanjivjhangiani3243]

The point of that charge (by the Union Brigade) is that it stopped the momentum of the French infantry. This bought the British Army valuable time.

[@keithagn]

Very interesting talk; I learnt a lot. Thank you! Regards from Canada 🇨🇦

[@redcoathistory]

Cheers, keith.

[@billl8774]

Really enjoyed that, thanks to Mark for summarising the information. Despite the early feedback it was easy listening 😊

[@johnbooker-t3j]

having served in the lifeguards [ heavy dragoons ] in the 50s we where given lectures about regimental history and where told that 90 percent of the officers from captain up did not have a clue what they where doing they lost about 3 times the amount of men than they would have if they had any brains

[@flashgordon6670]

That’s bc they were aristocrats who bought their commissions and had little officer training. My great Grandad was a lifeguard too, for Queen Victoria.

[@wuffothewonderdog]

Echoed by French and Haig’s devotion to knee-to-knee cavalry charge training that Smith-Dorrien stopped in his command at Aldershot in 1908, forcing the cavalry to concentrate on being mounted infantry. A year later a cavalryman won the annual shooting prize.

[@martinhogg5337]

Very interesting conversation. Never knew there were such problems with the cavalry.

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks Martin. Yes, especially the senior commanders - at least one had serious mental health issues and another seemed grossly inept.

[@flashgordon6670]

I suppose when they were galloping, they felt they were doing something. But the intimidation and the sheer presence of cavalry, on the field of battle, meant as much if not more than the actual fighting. Great video ty, I’m learning a great deal.

[@2adamast]

Marching a mud road before it was used by the cavalry instead of after meant a lot too.

[@Stay_at_home_Astronaut81]

This is the first video of yours I've watched. I'll be watching every video.

[@redcoathistory]

That's great to hear, thanks a lot.

[@andhelm7097]

Very interesting account of the British cavalry in the Peninsular War.i have read that Long expected support from the Heavy Brigade under Beresford.thank you

[@tombogan03884]

4:00 The 2 quotes go together. They are good Troopers as long as they don't underestimate their enemy.

[@roblewis2812]

Very enjoyable and informative.

[@thatcouncilestatekid1832]

Cheers Chris great episode very interesting thanks for the knowledge

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks a lot, glad you found it interesting.

[@michaelsnyder3871]

Note that the best light cavalry regiment, especially screening and skirmishing alongside the British rifles and light infantry, in the British Army in the Peninsula is reputed to have been the 2 Hussars, King's German Legion. It was the dragoons of the KGL that broke the French squares at Garcia Hernandez. British cavalry entered the Peninsula campaigns with little training in the cavalry's most important missions, screening and scouting. But I think the first hand references show that the British cavalry that stayed in the Peninsula learned their jobs when competently led. It seems real problem was the officers, going right up to brigade and division commanders.

[@redcoathistory]

All good points. Thanks for your input.

[@peterkerruish8136]

Informative, very easy to listen to,Excellent!. Thankyou.

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks, peter.

[@FranciscoPreira]

Yet another great subject indeed, that was curious because I have 3 letters , (copies of course) of Brigadier General George Madden to go through, concerning a work I'm doing. Another great piece of information about the harsh realities of war, thanks for sharing.

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks a lot. Hopefully this was useful for your own research. What are you working on right now?

[@FranciscoPreira]

It did help indeed. For now just digging archives, but the idea is a book about the Portuguese Legion in Napoleon's service, let us see if it works right. Best regards mate.

[@Tusk_III]

The logistics of Napoleonic Cavalry are something else. Crazy

[@Dav1Gv]

What an interesting video. Military history, although not the Napoleonic period, is a major interest of mine. I suspect the fundamental problem was the purchase of commissions without insisting on training to a decent level. And as no one mentioned the old infantry joke about the cavalry officer who was so stupid even the others noticed (could be said of politicians as well) but it seems it may have been fair comment.

[@mariadacre9647]

Always brilliant.

[@redcoathistory]

Many thanks

[@signorlydon1304]

When Mark mentioned light (cavalry) sabres I pictured Darth Vader participating in the Peninsular War😂 . Many thanks for a wonderfully erudite and informative discussion.

[@farmerned6]

remember , the HORSE is the brains of the operation

[@generalsandnapoleon]

Nice work, gents!

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks John - shame you couldn't make the livestream. We must plan another together once you have time.

[@_pawter]

Thanks, added to my knowledge considerably. I knew of the bad reputation but the details and context are a good counterbalance. I note that after the notorious charge of the light brigade at Balaclava the Russians were thereafter very averse to meeting British cavalry on anything like equal terms.

[@flashgordon6670]

Do you mean in the Crimean war, or after that war?

[@_pawter]

​@@flashgordon6670 During the Crimean. My library is in storage so I cannot give you the references, but I picked that factoid up in a couple of separate places that were not Flashman. I omitted to write it was Russian CAVALRY units who on more than one occasion refused orders so that their senior officers had to take this into account when setting their tasks.

[@flashgordon6670]

@@_pawter Okey dokey, you seem quite intelligent so I’ll take your word for it.

[@_pawter]

@@flashgordon6670 Shit mate now you've made me feel like a bigmouth. But of the Russian line cavalry (not Cossack irregulars) I am certain I read in a couple of what seemed like reputable (secondary) sources, they were thereafter very toey. Which somewhat redeems the Tennyson poem from being mere chauvinist jingoism, in that their bravery was not entirely in vain.

[@flashgordon6670]

@@_pawter Come now, not a bit of it old boy. I’ll not have any of that self mastication. Stiff upper lip, chin up chest out. Keep your knees up and your spirits high. Chin chin old chap toodle pip and tally ho. Last one in the cold shower is a raving homo.

[@marciebalme588]

Wellingtons comments are enough , John Le Marchant would seem to be the best and was able to keep his Dragoons in order and Cotton was also highly thought of , nevertheless whilst the Cavalry had the elan to charge home it was a matter of getting them to stop

[@SenorTucano]

I always thought that the role of cavalry was to bring style, flair and panache to an otherwise sordid infantry affair.

[@robertthomas3777]

‘Brainless gallopers’… love it. Taught lots of them in my 47 years of teaching. It’s a prefrontal cortex issue. Friends in high places a significant issue in all work forces. Considering the opening manoeuvre by the few Templars in ‘Kingdom Under Heaven’, if correct and accurate, where British cavalry so trained? It might be worth noting the Polish Winged Hussars, although a heavy mounted unit, there influence and model may have influenced British practice and strategy. Did the British have or use lances? Why or why not? This is very interesting. Our 10th Light Horse we’re still training on horse in the 1980’s. They’d do lance and sabre work along with dismount and rifle fire at shows and public events. Sadly, no more. Many thanks. 🇦🇺🦘👍 kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHbZamxvgJp_qJIsi=B1czGpAPUNPULccA

[@redcoathistory]

Thanks for the info Robert.

[@flashgordon6670]

Yes the British had lancers. But not very many I believe. Bc lances are quite heavy and cumbersome compared with sabres. Also in large campaigns, quality pieces of wood are in high demand for many uses and will tend to deteriorate rapidly, when exposed to the outdoor elements and would need maintenance. I imagine rot and warping would be issues and they’d be significantly, harder to wield in wet and cold weather. But I’m not really sure about it. I’m hypothesising with common sense.

[@amerigo88]

The British cavalry was very impressed by the French and Polish Lancers (in French service) that they faced. At close range, the lance of lancers, uhlans, winged hussars, etc was highly effective - outranging the sabres of cavalry and the bayonets of Infantry. However, once the lancers were forced to a walk, the sabre and pistol were more useful. Nevertheless, the British established the 17th and 21st Regiments of Lancers after the Napoleonic Wars, IIRC. German Uhlans were still scouting ahead of the Kaiser's army during the Schlieffen Plan phase of 1914. In the American Civil War of 1861-65, cavalry often didn't carry even a sabre as a brace of revolvers, a breech-loading carbine, and perhaps a shotgun was much more effective. As one Confederate cavalry commander exclaimed as he watched a Federal cavalry unit charging his troopers - "Look boys! Here come the Yankees with their cutlery again!"

[@FelixstoweFoamForge]

the problem seems to be an excess of RUPERTS, to use a phrase from a Veteran mate of mine.

[@redcoathistory]

Hi, I would suggest that the problem was more a lack of "ruperts" who had the relevant experience and knowledge perhaps.

[@FelixstoweFoamForge]

@@redcoathistory Ah, but in this context, a "rupert" is an officer who combines overconfidence and lack of ability, and it seems as if the British Cavalry arm was over-endowed with officers like that. An officer, with experience and knowledge, cannot, by definition, be called a rupert.

[@flashgordon6670]

Too much Rupert and not enough Jeremy.

[@kingfisher1487]

With shortage of horses on campaign, did any of the calvary officers got posted to infantry regiments? Also did any of the calvary had to served in battle on foot?

[@richardyates7280]

How on earth did Wellington win with such officers?

[@redcoathistory]

Makes you wander! At least he did have excellent men around him such as Daddy Hill and Bob Crauford

[@JevansUK]

They had Ney

[@flashgordon6670]

Logistics, careful strategies and tactics, diplomacy and technology.

[@knoll9812]

Won despite Calvary. Infantry was his winning weapon

[@flashgordon6670]

​@@knoll9812 And Artillery with Shrapnel shells invented by the British. Brains over Braun old boy, oh and our stiff upper lips. It never gets boring, giving frenchie a dam good thrashing. Perhaps it was the winning mentality, it was like Agincourt, Crecy and Poitiers all over again and that probably unnerved the French as well. Then there’s the morale in ascendancy from beating the French at Trafalgar and the Nile and Acre. Soaring ever higher with every victory and the French getting more and more shaken and despondent. It’s extremely hard to beat someone who’s beaten you countless times and you’ve rarely if ever, beaten at all before.

[@wolliveryoutube]

The shade that W. S. Gilbert threw upon the British heavy dragoons in his 1880 opera “Patience” makes a lot more sense, given this video. The plot revolves around a foppish, pretentious artist (who is secretly a fraud) who is so attractive that all the fiancés of the British 35th Dragoon Guards abandon them, and the Dragoons have to figure out how to get them back. They’re introduced with a satirical song that extols the virtues of the dragoons to ridiculous lengths by comparing them with every intellectual figure in history their colonel can think of. One lieutenant is the opera’s principal tenor character, a Duke who was tired of being admired and treated differently, so he joined the second-class cavalry regiment in the hopes of being a nobody who might even get snubbed or bullied.

[@cesarsalas8506]

Wasn't part of the problem a lack of adecquate places to maneouvre large cavalry corps in Great Britain, which meant that the soldiers were lacking in training as units, even if as individual fighters they were perfectly fine?

[@sirfox950]

Garryowen is the true British cavalry song

[@doug6500]

I thought there were a couple isolated cavalry on cavalry clashes that the British won quite convincingly in the Peninsular War. One such clash included beating Frances elite chasseurs a cheval. Man for man, British cavalry were no mugs.

[@urseliusurgel4365]

There is a very cogent problem with tarring the officers of the British cavalry as brainless nincompoops, while extoling the solid qualities of contemporary British infantry officers, they were the same people! Looking through the service histories of many officers shows that they quite often exchanged between infantry and cavalry regiments, without any discernible pattern. As an example, Sir Colquhoun Grant (commanded the Hussars at Vitoria) joined the 36th Foot as an ensign in 1793, exchanging to 25th Light Dragoons, then command the 72nd Foot, and lastly exchanged to the 15th Hussars.

[@northguy2367]

You talk about lack of experience but the Peninsular War went on for 5 years so that was surely enough time to learn?

[@redcoathistory]

Unless I missunderstood, I thought Mark had said lack of experience at the beginning but that by 1810 they had improved drastically (tho sadly a number of the commanders who should have been replaced weren't due to horse guards etc).

[@flashgordon6670]

It was definitely a coming of age moment for the British main army.

[@knoll9812]

Senior leadership was not replaced. They said the tone for all the lower officers. Crazy stupid charges were not punished

[@flashgordon6670]

@@knoll9812 What’s that supposed to mean and who do you think you’re talking to?

[@michaelsnyder3871]

The British had to ship in their horses because there was an insufficient number of horses large enough for medium and heavy cavalry to mount a regiment.

[@greg_4201]

''Never consider yourselves equal to the French'' just means 'do your job properly'. In one instance he's giving you his opinion and in the other he's telling you how his unit was instructed by its commanders.

[@jon9021]

I’m ex QOH, so a “galloping Hussar!”

[@brucepeek3923]

The Basics of the Cavalry in a charge comes down to their being able to open. close and align their ranks while moving so they could stay in an even line.. You align your ranks in movement by leg yielding your horse to the left and then back again to the right. This is a basic dressage movement and is taught in french horsemanship today just as it was starting in the 1750's. So the French had a far better and more competent basic horsemanship compared to the Enlgish. best Bruce Peek

[@steveconway1948]

The French cavalry claim to have beaten Anson's brigade during the rearguard action at Villadrigo 23/10/12, causing 300 casualties and losing 139.

[@freedomtosayno7880]

The destruction of Anson’s brigade at Talavera in the dry stream bed after being warned by the Spanish Marines of Bassecourt’s division. Sir George Anson was never cashiered or demoted, an ongoing problem with this ancien régime. “They (the cavalry) never consider their situation, never think of maneuvering before an enemy - so little that one would think they cannot maneuver excepting on Wimbledon Common…. The (1st Royal Dragoons) Royals and the 3rd Dragoon Guards were the best regiments in this (Spain) country, and it annoys me particularly that the misfortune has happened to them. I do not wonder at the French boasting of it… - Lord Wellington Commenting after Salamanca/Los Arapiles, on the march toward Madrid. Bock’s brigade against Foy’s squares, D’Urban’s brigade against Treillard’s cavalry and Slade’s brigade against Lallemand’s reserve squadron. Pages 358 -362 The Spanish Ulcer.

[@peregrinemccauley5010]

To have mud thrown at at one, one must be a figure.

[@peregrinemccauley5010]

Thank god for our lads, retreat? We died with our boot straps on.

[@kevinstreet5709]

Lions led by donkeys

[@redcoathistory]

Certainly an element of truth to that here...

[@WalesTheTrueBritons]

English and Scottish come from the Anglo and Scoti. Neither were or are “British”. The only country founded by the British is Wales. Being located in barn does make you horse!!!

[@flashgordon6670]

The Britani tribe was here when the Romans invaded. They were subdued and dispersed around the Isles and Brittany in France. Assimilated into all the other tribes, and so became a collective byword, for all the tribes. In a similar way with the Gauls in France and Celts across Europe. These names are retrospective for groups of tribes, who had different names earlier. Like English is the name for the collective Normans, Vikings, Saxons, Angles etc who coalesced and assimilated.

[@redcoathistory]

Irrelevant and pointless to the topic at hand.

[@flashgordon6670]

@@redcoathistory It’s still History though isn’t it?

[@davidbirt4643]

The rich and privaliged. If the fucking lawyers and political weren't so stuck up and self important, you would have a lot better bunch of officers. To ride a horse? It was a bit of a joke back then with buying promotion . Country boys probably rode better. Read more about the Australian Light Horse Brigade. A bit late, I know 😔

[@flashgordon6670]

The horse tends to do most the work.