Perelandra: The BEST Scene: Hatred Has a Purpose

[@ProfYaffle]

"Ransome. What? Ransome. What? Ransome. What? Ransome. What?..." Tormenting. Favourite quote. Least favourite quote. Love it. Hate it.

[@nperium9886]

I just finished the space trilogy a few weeks ago. Perelandra was one of those books that fundamentally changes how you view the world, and leaves a mark on you. Thank God for C.S. Lewis.

[@HistoryNerd808]

That whole series is fantastic. I read The Space Trilogy in a Religion and Lit class I took in college(I went to a Baptist college.) It's way too underrated among C.S. Lewis's work. Written during WW2(Out of Silent Planet was published in 1938 just as people were starting to realize WW2 was unavoidable, Perelandra in 1943 at its height and written by Lewis in the years before as his native UK was under the blitz, and That Hideous Strength was published in 1945 so written at the end of the war and looking back on it) and that historical context just leaks off the pages. Lewis was a fantastic writer and apologist and was wrestling with the same issues that many Christians have struggled with for millennia: evil, hatred, and pain.

[@Hobbitsushiroll]

When I first became a Christian I asked my pastor if we're allowed to hate Satan and demons and he said we shouldn't live in hatred. Unfortunately at the time I was full of hatred and I never knew what to do with it, so I placed it on myself and that not only led to me hurting myself, but also the people around me. I'm still stuck with a little self-loathing, but what a relief this video is! Hopefully I'll point my anger where it belongs in the future, thank you Gavin!

[@lproof8472]

CS Lewis point on self-exiled negation, or fully giving yourself over to sin, really hit me in The Great Divorce. “The question is whether she is a grumbler, or only a grumble. If there is a real woman-even the least trace of one-still there inside the grumbling, it can be brought to life again. If there’s one wee spark under all those ashes, we’ll blow it till the whole pile is red and clear. But if there’s nothing but ashes we’ll not go on blowing them in our own eyes forever. They must be swept up.” Powerful.

[@AshandElm]

"Ransom at last understood why mythology was what it was -- gleams of celestial strength and beauty falling on a jungle of filth and imbecility."

[@danielklassen1513]

“We have learned of evil, though not as the Evil One wished us to learn. We have learned better than that, and know it more, for it is waking that understands sleep and not sleep that understands waking. There is an ignorance of evil that comes from being young: there is a darker ignorance that comes from doing it, as men by sleeping lose the knowledge of sleep. You are more ignorant of evil in Thulcandra now than in the days before your Lord and Lady began to do it.”

[@prestonyannotti7661]

That is more profound than i can comprehend

[@flagstone9182]

"Every joy is beyond all others. The fruit we are eating is always the best fruit of all."

[@buckeyelevi]

I forgot about that one!! It’s so good!

[@Qhaon]

“I think He made one law of that kind in order that there might be obedience. In all these other matters what you call obeying Him is but doing what seems good in your own eyes also. Is love content with that? You do them, indeed, because they are His will, but not only because they are His will. Where can you taste the joy of obeying unless He bids you do something for which His bidding is the only reason?” My favorite quote from Perelandra

[@andreys1793]

Love the Ransom Trilogy content. Keep it coming! This series really seems to be speaking to our time; it’s popping up everywhere. One of my favorite quotes from Perelandra: “Be comforted, small one, in your smallness. He lays no merit on you. Receive and be glad. Have no fear, lest your shoulders be bearing this world. Look! it is beneath your head and carries you.”

[@jefflavenau]

I feel like this trilogy is on a resurgence right now and I love it so much.

[@Hillbillywayfarer]

Hatred of evil produce courage to act with compassion toward suffering sinners.

[@thestraightroad305]

This trilogy is one that, no matter how many times read, leaves one full of new thoughts, makes one again a learner, satisfies with hope.

[@Michiganman800]

One small note about what you said at the begining. Ransom does not choose violence and lean in to hate because he is losing the argument. He does so because he realizes the Un-man is not argueing but using rhetoric only as a psycological weapon on the Eve character. He sees that the woman has rejected sin, but the Un-man is just mechanically wearing her down. And the woman ( being un-fallen ) can't fully understand the game being played. Ransom only turns to violence after this episode plays out over days. And as he watches the Un-man, Ransom realizes the Un-man is not bound by his own reasoning, which is part of what leads Ransom to see the Un-man as a fragmented personality

[@philipmartyn8482]

"Suddenly Quickbeam gave a cry "The tree killer, the tree killer!" Quickbeam is a gentle creature, but he hates Saruman all the more fiercely for that: his people suffered cruelly from orc-axes."

[@marcol4733]

“‘It is not for nothing that you are named Ransom,‘ said the Voice. […] ‘My name also is Ransom,’ said the Voice.” (Chapter 11, pages leading up to the quote in the video) I got chills in that section, especially as Ransom teased apart what the Voice meant. Showing the greatness of God with the Gospel and that He can do more than even that. What an amazing chapter of an amazing book.

[@jasonharrison616]

This is my favorite too!

[@cbrooks97]

I wish I could remember the exact quote, but the thing that's really stayed with me from that book is the bit about why they weren't allowed to spend the night on land. If you see the benefit of doing something good, you're doing it for the benefit. If you do not see the benefit, doing it is simply trust and obedience.

[@MarkTodd-yc1zd]

One of my favorite KZbinrs + one of my favorite books??!! It's a good day today!

[@ethancoppel]

"When I was young I could imagine no beauty but this of our own world. But He can think of it all, and all different."

[@carlcederborg2194]

Perelandra is my favorite of the three for so many reasons. I find Lewis' description of true loss with the analogy of the waves to be incredibly useful when talking about the fall and redemption. It is in line with countering "Shall we sin all the more so that grace may abound?" Further, his point about trying to get to the center of a fruit without going through the rind has also been helpful in describing sin and redemption. Finally, my favorite scene is certainly the lead up to Ransom making the decision to fight the un-man. It is such a great depiction of how we try to convince ourselves out of what God calls us to do!

[@bartdanison3236]

That's why we have the imprecatory psalms. They help us direct those otherwise dangerous emotions in the right direction.

[@TheDoctor1194]

Something I have been considering recently is the idea that perfect love necessitates perfect hatred. If one truly loves justice, they will truly hate injustice. To truly love an alcoholic, you must also truly hate their alcoholism. To truly love God, one must also truly hate evil (Psalm 97:10). I think there is a danger, as you pointed out, of falling into a spiral of ever increasing hatred, but I think the answer to avoiding that is to examine how love is motivating that hatred. Is it a love of God or a love of self? A love of good or a love of comfort? A love of people or a love of people's opinions? Even when we see David speaking of hating God's enemies (Psalm 139), we see it is not for their actions against him, but for their hatred of God. Adding to this is the fact that a right love of God carries with it a desire to obey His commands which includes "love your enemies" (Matthew 5) and "overcome evil with good" (Romans 12). Even in our hatred, even when it is right hatred, we are not to repay with evil or to elevate ourselves to the position of final judge. Scripture goes so far as to present to us the example of Michael not standing in judgement of Satan, but entrusting even that to the Lord (Jude 1:9). TL;DR Perfect love also carries with it perfect hatred, and love of God will motivate a person not to carry right hatred into error. We must, therefore, examine ourselves to see what is motivating our hatred and what fruit it is producing. What is it you truly love?

[@thomasc9036]

I am not sure if you are being hyperbolic when you use the term "perfect" here or not. The correct word is "righteous" and it is used in the Bible. The term "righteous" indicates a moral discernment and not absolute like "perfect". Most Western Christians (especially Anglosphere) became infected with childish "Hinduistic/Hippie" thoughts. I am not picking on you, but I see some posts here while on the surface, they sound good, but very childish their views. Hebrews 5:14 teaches us to "constant practice to distinguish good from evil". This thought of "hate" and "love" being exclusive is childish. While these emotions are opposite, they coexist. For example, you can hate a child rapist, but love him enough to share the gospel. They are not mutually exclusive.

[@TheDoctor1194]

@@thomasc9036 I don't feel you're picking on me. In a large part I agree with you and intended that agreement to be part of my original comment. When I refer to "perfect" love or hatred I am speaking of them as being complete, not lacking in any aspect including moral perfection or righteousness. I chose the term "perfect" intentionally because someone may "love" justice while turning a blind eye to injustice. This is what I would offer as an example of "imperfect" love. It is incomplete at best. "Perfect" or "complete" is also used in Psalm 139 that I cited above and used in the letters to the church in Sardis in Revelation to describe what their works were not, so it is appropriate in light of the Scripture. To the example you offered, I agree wholeheartedly and would actually expand upon it that we ought also to love God enough to share the gospel with such a person. Additionally, while love and hate have emotional dimensions, they are not merely emotions nor does Scripture define them as such, as we see in 1 Corinthians 13 or 1 John where love is identified by what it does and does not. But you are quite correct that one can hold love and hate simultaneously in different ways and for different reasons. I appreciate your response and hope this offers a little clarity on the thoughts I was trying to communicate above.

[@michaelmiky11]

Not a specific quote, but I love the ending. Especially the poetic way it deals with death and heaven.

[@brandonwhitaker8468]

One of my favorite books. I remember the decision to physically attack the Un-man being very thought-provoking for me. I had a strong tendency to believe in my own life that sin had to be resisted in a very specific way, that there had to be some triumph of spiritual reasoning, in such a way that, for example, avoiding temptation to lust by simply going for a walk would be some kind of cop-out. It may have been this book that pushed me to change my perspective.

[@JAE-li9vw]

this is really great thought, Gavin. Keep doing what you’re doing! God bless you, brother.

[@edunn7531]

This couldn't have come out at a better time! Just finished perelandra and loved every perplexing part of it

[@theepitomeministry]

I have never read this series, so I can't give a quote, but I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed this discussion on where hatred can be a proper response as long as it is directed at the correct object - Satan and evil.

[@carlcederborg2194]

I recently read through Perelandra, and this exact point inspired me to do a study and write an article on Hatred's Design. Love to see that Gavin beat me to it! It's a profound point and is often missed by the worldly-minded Christians who are trying to please everybody

[@chadster771]

I read this trilogy last year. I remember having this angst that stayed with me. A longing for the innocence that Lewis described. The conversation of the Un-man and the woman was heart wrenching. If I remember correctly it was described as her becoming “older” every time she continued to question and follow the un-man’s logic.

[@jtbasener8740]

As a fan of both philosophy and literature - especially one who obsesses over their vast shared territory - I love that your channel has such a vast array of literary analysis and references. I agree with you entirely that our philosophy is often most present in our stories. Alas, however, I may have to wait to watch this video through as I have yet to read C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy. That being said, I intend on flying into 'Till We Have Faces' quite soon so please do not fear that I am at all about to suffer a starvation of Lewis mastery.

[@mward5338]

"Ransom...Ransom...Ransom..."

[@jfitz6517]

That book blew my mind when I first read it in college. Easily my favorite in the trilogy.

[@SeenAGreatLight]

That is the first time I have ever heard someone say that That Hideous Strength was their favorite book in the series!

[@ArticulateApologetics]

Going through the trilogy for I think the second time now and it only gets better

[@Josephiah24]

This is my favorite book series

[@timdemoss]

Thanks so much for this! I loved this trilogy when I read it long ago - for whatever reason, Out of the Silent Planet & That Hideous Strength are the ones that stick in my memory and I’ve forgotten a lot of the nuance in Perelandra. Don’t have a favorite quote offhand because of that but maybe I’ll go reread them soon. :)

[@gregbradburn]

I love the Space Trilogy. I read it to our kids when they were little.

[@BeanMonsterr]

I'm excited to see a Perelandra video on your channel! I enjoyed your video on That Hideous Strength as well. I had meant to finish the trilogy for so long, but was demotivated by everyone's negative commentary. When your video appeared, I watched only a bit before committing reading the book. It ended up being my favorite of the series and one of my favorite books in general! Afterward, I returned to finish and enjoy your video fully. Now, I'm looking forward to watching this one!

[@danielligon]

I read the trilogy last year. Perelandra is my favorite and this quote was one of my two favorites. Great video! Hating sin (especially our own sin) helps us fight sin. Here’s my favorite quote. “Our bodies will be changed, but not all changed. We shall be as the eldila, but not all as the eldila. And so will all our sons and daughters be changed in the time of their ripeness, until the number is made up which Maleldil read in His Father’s mind before times flowed.” “And that,” said Ransom, “will be the end?” Tor the King stared at him. “The end?” he said. “Who spoke of an end?” “The end of your world, I mean,” said Ransom. “Splendor of Heaven!” said Tor. “Your thoughts are unlike ours. About that time we shall be not far from the beginning of all things.”

[@HaggisOfDeath]

I have found it useful to perceive the sin in myself to be not so much born out of me, but out of spiritual evil, and I wonder if the old perception of negative emotional states or even practices as demons is somewhat linked to it. For instance, where they would call it the demon of anger, or of lust, or of alcoholism, or gambling. While I am not entirely sure about what I am about to say, I think it is best to view ourselves as decision makers being pulled hither and thither by both God and spiritual evil; it is through and from God that all goodness flows, so any draw we have towards doing what is right is more truly understood as us being pulled towards God, by God, for He made us in His image, in His world, with all of the thoughts and feelings that might lead us to such an action. Likewise, the desire to do evil is not from within us, it is the whispers of spiritual evil that attempt to convince us that it is we who want to do that abominable thing, that try to put images and desires in our minds; upon realising that this is not us, but something other; it is far easier to oppose it. For instance I used to ( and still do at times) get angry over things, and I might raise my voice or be somewhat rude and unkind, and despite the fact that I'd quickly realise I should not have shouted or been rude; I'd still feel the need to explain why I did it, that what drove me to that action was somewhat justified, even if my action had gone too far. When I re-frame the event as devil's whispering in my ear, and poking and prodding me towards acting in that sinful way; it is much easier to reject it wholly. I do not need to explain why that person annoyed me, instead I know it was the whispers of spiritual evil that provoked such a reaction, and that had they not been there the anger and irritation should never have been felt, or allowed to grow and lead to the outburst. I'm still not certain that what I've said above is entirely true, but I think it makes sense, it feels useful in practice, and I think we can justify it through Scripture, even just citing Adam and Eve's temptation, that without the serpent's temptation they would have done what was right and not felt any compulsion to do what was sinful; and from that first sin, all other sin claims heritage. Though I do believe it is more than that, and that the spiritual realm about us is a flurry of activity, and that we are not the true author of many if any of our decisions, though we do ultimately have the choice to choose what we do.

[@cinsc556]

I've enjoyed the "Ransom Trilogy" several times, and Perelandra most of all. My favorite thing about Lewis is his ability to imagine and describe the unfallen nature of the planet in Ransom's first taste of the fruit free from our earthly, unquenchable appetites: "He had meant to extract the smallest, experimental sip, but the first taste put his caution all to flight. ...it was so different from every other taste that it seemed mere pedantry to call it taste at all. It was like the discovery of a whole new genus of pleasures." and "...the experience had been so complete that repetition would be a vulgarity..."

[@jackiebendolph3754]

Currently rereading Perlandra and was reminded of why this book is one of my favorites. Lewis takes Romans 1:21-32 (the reality that God gives what those who refuse to acknowledge Him over to their desires)! The moment Weston brags about his mental and new found spiritual abilities he becomes the unman.

[@thethinplace]

This is one of my favorite trilogies of all time!

[@funandmental]

Chapter 11 of Perelandra might be my favorite chapter of any book.

[@drummersagainstitk]

Excellent insights Gavin.

[@SamuelBradstreet]

I love the continuance of discussion around the Ransom Trilogy. Your analogy of swordsmanship was similar to the thought that popped into my head. We know statistically that people who have trained in self defense are less likely to engage in behavior that escalates negative confrontations to the point that such a skill may be necessary. In the same fashion, I think clearly identifying our true enemy will reduce the temptation to ascribe that role to other people.

[@rickydettmer2003]

Prime example why Dr. Ortlund should go on the pints with jack podcast to discuss all thing Lewis😉😉

[@brittousley7882]

I love Perelandra. I don’t have a good quote, but my favorite parts of the book were the various relationships the humans had with the animals. I’m fascinated by the purpose of animal life and the charge of human care and dominion over them.

[@whosrichpurnell3328]

It’s a real shame these books aren’t picked up for a sci fi series. It would be such a banger. Of course, I can’t imagine a majority appealing to it. I love the interplay of theology and sci fi

[@SeanusAurelius]

Maybe Daily Wire or Angel Studios or some smaller Christian studio? Might be worth one of these online crowd campaigns?

[@whosrichpurnell3328]

@@SeanusAurelius oh pls not daily wire lol. I’m a huge Ridley Scott fan and this just seems like somethin up his ally. Especially after producing the sci fi series “raised by wolves”. Really weird but cool writing on morality, tech and humanity. But, that’s a long pipe dream

[@PrinceofArfon]

I am long overdue for a reread. It's such an amazing book. Thanks for spotlighting it! I do think we need to investigate more a proper hatred of sin. A phrase I've heard and used a lot is "love what God loves, hate what God hates." Another Lewis book that must be talked about more is his final novel, Till We Have Faces. It's absolutely amazing, and might be the most profound religious thing he's written, despite not being explicitly about Christianity. It addresses the question: What would it actually mean to meet God face to face?

[@cybersecurityforcivilians]

He actually considered TWHF his greatest work of fiction, and it's the greatest-kept secret of his work. He's most famous for Mere Christianity, the Screwtape Letters, and of course the Narnia series. But I agree with his assessment: It's his greatest work of fiction.

[@geothepoly]

"My name is also Ransom," said the Voice.

[@trewise1072]

Makes sense of the fact that the we are called to fight supernatural forces, and yet not men. Fight is motivated by hate of something

[@kakelso]

Wow, this is great! I am hoping to reread the Ransom Trilogy this summer and maybe do a book study with some church friends in the fall. This is definitely a topic worth discussing! I somehow missed your first video on the trilogy, and I don't see a link in the description, so I'll have to go find it.

[@TruthUnites]

thanks a lot! If it helps, its entiteled, "this C.S. Lewis Book Predicted the 21st Century"

[@MatthewNavarro-n9v]

“It is not for nothing that you are named Ransom,” said the Voice... The whole distinction between things accidental and things designed, like the distinction between fact and myth, was purely terrestrial. The pattern is so large that within the little frame of earthly experience there appear pieces of it between which we can see no connection, and other pieces between which we can. Hence we rightly, for our sue, distinguish the accidental from the essential. But step outside that frame and the distinction drops down into the void, fluttering useless wings. He had been forced out of the frame, caught up into the larger pattern… “My name also is Ransom,” said the Voice.”

[@MarkWCorbett1]

Yes. We should hate evil and that helps us to not misuse hate. Very insightful. But I would say that practically the most useful purpose of hatred is not hating Satan and demons and general evil (although it is right to hate them), but it is to hate evil and sin in our own lives. Not in a way that leads us to despair, but in a way that leads us to seek God's help and the power of the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh. ESV Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

[@gregbradburn]

The sin of wrath is borne out of a divine longing for justice. Anger/hatred itself isn't the problem so long as we allow it to motivate us to take appropriate and proportionate action to correct an injustice. In that case it would actually be righteous and godly. (paraphrased from Broken Gods: Hope, Healing, and the Seven Longings of the Human Heart by Gregory Popcak).

[@ogloc6308]

Glory to God

[@TheNinjaInConverse]

I like the smoky design titlecard at the start!

[@lukekrell5665]

In a fallen world, you can't truly love anything without hating. To love good entails that you hate evil. Big C.S. Lewis fan. Its been a while since I read Perelandra. Its hard to classify the Trilogy. Its not really a space trilogy. The first book is Sci-Fi, the second is Fantasy, and the third is Dystopian Thriller??? I don't think there's a word for that.

[@JesusRocks993]

I suspect the core idea, that hatred has a just purpose, is likely true just simply based on the biblical evidence. I could see someone arguing with you against it's prudence though (i.e. "think on these things", and all that). It is interesting though, the pragmatic idea of hating the specifically the demonic. The Bible teaches us not to fear it, nor to be cavalier with it. So how you do you balance simultaneously avoiding it and confronting it? Hating it seems like decent alternative, without falling into hating your fellow man...

[@BoldUlysses]

Yes! My favorite book in the Ransom Trilogy. Love these videos. I've really been enjoying your "diversification," haha.

[@asherburns6818]

“I think He made one law of that kind in order that there might be obedience. In all these other matters what you call obeying Him is but doing what seems good in your eyes also. Is love content with that? You do them, indeed, because they are His will, but not only because they are his will. Where can you taste the joy of obeying unless he bids you do something for which His bidding is the only reason?”

[@bholwell1]

O you who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the lives of his saints; he delivers them from the hand of the wicked. Psalm 97:10

[@intermirificanm281]

Really great video, definitely my favorite so far! I think that no matter if you are calling it the Space Trilogy or the Ransom Trilogy That Hideous Strength messes it up. That book doesn't take place in space and Ransom is part of the supporting cast. To one of your other questions I think it can be helpful to know hate's proper object but we need to be extremely careful. To see how let's compare it to anger. In traditional Christian thought anger is the proper response to injustice - great! And we can point to Jesus getting angry to justify our own anger. However, we are fallen and 99% of the time our anger is a inordinate response to a perceived injustice. So too with hatred. We can know that it is made for evil, but most of the time we need to avoid it. I hope that makes sense, keep up the good work!

[@KYWingfold]

Ugh! I can’t believe you said That Hideous Strength messes it up! The whole model is fairytale. Sci Fi is the modern fairytale genre. Read the note at the beginning of the book. THS completes the series and is a companion to The Abolition of Man. It’s a masterpiece.

[@KYWingfold]

So, in summation, I respectfully disagree lol.

[@intermirificanm281]

@@KYWingfold to clarify: That Hideous Strength does not mess up the trilogy in the sense of it being bad (It's the best one!) but it messes up our naming conventions. If we call the trilogy Lewis's Space Trilogy - where is the Space? If we call it the Ransom Trilogy -where is Ransom? So I disagree with your disagreement lol I think we agree.

[@KYWingfold]

@@intermirificanm281 let’s disagree to agree on this.

[@mikedickey7903]

On the distinction and clarification around whether hatred can be good and/or useful, around the bit where you share the thing your dad mentioned to you… this is especially interesting, too, when we think about the misplaced, superficial, false-piety around self-hatred. We can more easily understand the "hate the sin, love the sinner" mentality when it's "them," but are less likely to consider that carefully when it's "us" - as self-loathers.

[@carltonhobbs]

One observation. Part of the challenge is modern, where we multiply words, so a concept has separate words for if a good connotation vs. bad. Ancient languages, especially Hebrew and somewhat Greek, are far less so on this, requiring sincere observation and context to determine good or bad connotation, even in the 10 Commandment's prohibition on murder/killing.

[@litigioussociety4249]

This helped me refocus my hatred of someone in my past to the bad attributes within them. Even so, hatred is a sin I admit to, and seek forgiveness of, unlike many Christinas who refuse to admit to hating people at times.

[@keithcampbell7820]

I must ask. Have you completely removed the plank from your eyes?

[@litigioussociety4249]

@@keithcampbell7820 I simply stated that I am convicted of hatred, and admit to it. Many Christians in the media often say, "I don't hate anyone, because I love everyone" or something similar, and I understand why they say that, because the Bible says not to hate. I have removed the plank of pretending I only ever hate the sin and love the sinner, so I am in the right to notice that others have not done the same.

[@MrDanielEarle]

Fun fact: Ransom was based on JRR Tolkien

[@thestraightroad305]

That’s right!!

[@croinkix]

I'll have to think about what youve saud about hatred. I think my favorite scene in Perelandra is the part where ransom is in the subterranean level of Perelandra and also the scene where the Unman keeps calling Ransom.

[@cybersecurityforcivilians]

Since we're sharing our favorite quotes, I'd love to mention one that I haven't seen mentioned yet, near the end of the book. Ransom, is having a conversation at the end of the book with Tor, the king of the planet, their parallel to the (unfallen) Adam. Tor alludes to some future events which sound like a universal Apocalypse. “And that,” said Ransom, “will be the end?” Tor the king stared at him. “The end?” he said. “Who spoke of an end?” “The end of your world, I mean,” said Ransom. “Splendour of Heaven!” said Tor. “Your thoughts are unlike ours. About that time we shall not be far from the beginning of all things.” “But can it be, Friend, that no rumour of all this is heard in [Earth]? Do your people think that their Dark Lord will hold his prey forever?” “Most of them,” said Ransom, “have ceased to think of such things at all. Some of us still have the knowledge: but I did not at once see what you were talking of, because what you call the beginning we are accustomed to call the Last Things.” “I do not call it the beginning,” said Tor the King. “It is but the wiping out of the false start in order that the world may then begin. As a man lies down to sleep, if he finds a twisted root under his shoulder he will change his place-and after that his real sleep begins. Or as a man setting foot on an island, may make a false step. He steadies himself and after that his journey begins. You would not call that steadying of himself a last thing?”

[@jhurshman]

CSL suggests that the “lawful” hatred which Ransom experiences is “perhaps” not an experience available to us on Thulcandra: “Then an experience that perhaps no good man can ever have in our world came over him-a torrent of perfectly unmixed and lawful hatred.” I take this to imply that in our world we do not in fact encounter “unmixed” evil which would be the legitimate target of “lawful hatred”. Put differently, there are no “unmen” in our world. There is no one who has yielded themselves to evil to such an extent that no redeemable personhood remains. If that is so, hatred in our world always remains tinged with guilt. However, I don’t think this needs to undermine your suggestion. Remembering the proper function of hatred helps us resist its improper application, even if this proper function is only in practice available to us imaginatively.

[@John-pz1zx]

My favorite part is when Ransom first arrives on paralandra

[@JonJaeden]

Hatred is underrated.

[@Thunderdumpe]

I loved the first two books of the trilogy but not the third

[@ChristianSyncretist]

I wonder if you have read (and fellow Inkling) Charles Williams' novels, and in particular his "Descent Into Hell?"

[@jasonharrison616]

My only question is this: is hatred really increasing? You say that several times, and I think one could argue it’s stayed steady since the fall. It’s always been a pretty clear characteristic of every epoch. My thought.

[@Michiganman800]

I think your idea of hatred needing to be directed toward it's proper place ties in with what C.S Lewis says in The Abolition of Man "a famished nature will be avenged." I also think it explains why anti-hatred/intollerance progressives become so hateful and intollerant.

[@sumfari]

Psa 139:19-22 KJV 19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. 20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. 21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

[@keitholiver2222]

We surely must hate sin in ourselves

[@alexism6138]

I definitely agree about anger and hatred having a purpose. Sometimes, especially when you see so much destruction from hatred and anger, it can be tempting to condemn them wholesale. But occasionally I'll hear a report of a particularly heinous act (typically the ones that get me the most are stories about girls being married off as children and then being sexually abused), and I'll watch people around me barely respond. It feels so wrong, to hear something so horrible and then just move on with your life. Deeply wrong that we can be so desensitized, that we don't get angry. The anger would motivate us to act. But because we feel we can't do anything we push the anger away again and again until we don't feel it anymore. I suppose it's a blessing and a curse, it would be hard to live if we became overwhelmed every time we heard of evil taking place in our world. We aren't strong enough to handle the weight of it on our own. But sometimes I really think we're too apathetic, too comfortable to allow ourselves to really feel the weight of the evil. I don't know what the right answer is but I know it's not to avoid ever being angry or hating evil. We need to hate evil, or we'll never be motivated to sacrifice our comfort to fight it.

[@WildBranch3]

Have never read or even heard of these. All I kept thinking about though was righteous indignation. Are we aloud to have this? Idk I would imagine it begins with grief (for the unaware person/s though and builds from there.

[@ethancoppel]

We cannot hate any being even Satan. For Satan, being created by God, is not inherently an evil creature. Thus, we ought to pity him. Our Lord told us to love our enemies and this command cannot stop with our human enemies, but must persist for them all.

[@ChristianCombatives]

It seems that hatred, like love, can be virtuous if it is properly applied, but sinful if it is applied in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons, or to the wrong thing. Hatred, in SOME sense must be potentially virtuous since it's something that God does/has. For the trilogy, I honestly didn't enjoy it much as a fictional book. I loved the wardrobe series as fiction, and I love CS Lewis' lectures, but I felt like he was trying to convey too large of a point in this fiction and I would really have rather heard it from him as a lecture. That being said, if you look at the book rather than a fiction to be judged based on how fun it is, and more of an extended parable, it's very useful. A hypothetical "What if there was a world where Adam and Eve didn't fall? How might that happen?"

[@joshuaalexander3618]

You asked For our favorite quotes from Perelandra, And I am just tempted to say, “See the entire text.” However, if I have to narrow it down, I would say, I like the entirety of the great dance Near the end of the book, and then this quote: “It is not for nothing that you are named Ransom,” said the Voice... The whole distinction between things accidental and things designed, like the distinction between fact and myth, was purely terrestrial. The pattern is so large that within the little frame of earthly experience there appear pieces of it between which we can see no connection, and other pieces between which we can. Hence we rightly, for our sue, distinguish the accidental from the essential. But step outside that frame and the distinction drops down into the void, fluttering useless wings. He had been forced out of the frame, caught up into the larger pattern… “My name also is Ransom,” said the Voice.“

[@joshuaalexander3618]

Anyway, great video and I agree with your premise. The part about Ransom’s legs, turning to pillars of boiling blood was another of my favorite quotes. And I think that it is tremendously, freeing to know that there are things we not only may hate, but should hate. It’s like when you’ve struggled to keep your eyes pure for years and then finally, on your wedding night, you say, “this is what sexual attraction was made for.”

[@joshuaalexander3618]

Apologies for the bizarre punctuation of voice to text! Lol

[@michaeldahlen2715]

""In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, here goes - I mean Amen," said Ransom, and hurled the stone as hard as he could into the Unman's face." JK, it's probably the: “We have learned of evil, though not as the Evil One wished us to learn. We have learned better than that, and know it more, for it is waking that understands sleep and not sleep that understands waking. There is an ignorance of evil that comes from being young: there is a darker ignorance that comes from doing it, as men by sleeping lose the knowledge of sleep."

[@SeanusAurelius]

@TruthUnites I have a question: OOTSP and Perelandra are different in tone and content almost to the point of being different genres. OOTSP is Christian flavoured sci-fi, whereas Perelandra is almost science flavoured "theo-fi". But they are both really polished and work really well either as self contained stories or as parts of a trilogy. That Hideous Strength OTOH feels unfinished, with lots of great bits but never achieving anything greater than the sum of its parts, and with quite afew loose ends, unlike the other two, and an ending that doesn't seem to resolve the central drama of the trilogy. I'm not alone on this, it seems to be the common opinion in reviews. So why is it your favourite, given that the other two are almost flawless?

[@andyjones1982]

Like sex, God made every basic emotion for a good purpose, but it must be understood and disciplined or it becomes dangerous. This is what Jungians call "integrating your dark side" or "Shadow Work".

[@randombanana3771]

Hello Dr. Ortlund. I still find myself confused by the phrase “Hate the sin, not the Sinner”. It seems like God hates and loves sinners (Ps 5:4-6, 11:5-7, Malachi 1:3). David also hates sinners in Psalm 139:21-22. How can I love my enemy (who is a sinner) and hate him (because he’s a sinner)?

[@quickattackfilms7923]

My favorite book ever… yes, besides the Bible lol

[@DevinWardMusic]

This just makes me wonder does God hate the person of (being of) Satan being his creation, or the actions of Satan? After all, if provided that in Job the ha-Satan is the same accuser role/being mentioned there as we face today, should we be hating toward the being/person of satan or simply his works unless they are ontologically one in the same?

[@DevinWardMusic]

Additionally does God actually say he hates particular beings in the Bible or just that we should hate sin itself not particular creations of God whether Earthly or Spiritual beings? (I’m confused still with the hating of Esau and how that might play in)

[@sebastienberger1112]

Would I be wrong to say that hatred is ok when directed towards the "father" of hate, Satan/evil itself ? It can be viewed as a "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" (Mk12.17) kind of thing, if I understood properly.

[@TAdler-ex8px]

Interesting? Can hatred be born of love? As always what we do is important but why we do what we do reflects who we are.

[@jamesascott7040]

Thanks for this video Gavin. I too believe hating Satan/evil helps us to love us betters. However, is some form of hatred for wicked people biblical? If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty! 20 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name. 21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you? 22 I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting Of course Jesus also calls us to pray for our enemies but that presumes that we have enemies. What ways are we supposed to feel differently at the enemies of God as other people? It's easy for us in the west to ignore evil and not feel the pain of it so language like psalm 139 feels strange to us. But, when your village is massacred by another people who are opposed to Christ, are we called to have a form of hatred for them? Can we pray for their judgment as well as their redemption?

[@-adc]

For any metal-heads here - the breakdown from Ransom, by Becoming the Archetype captures the essence of the fight between Ransom and the Un-man so well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eH7HlKyrmJmDlbs. \m/

[@quickattackfilms7923]

It’s my opinion that all stories of the knight in shining armor slaying the dragon and saving the princess are all, at least on their face, describing this same thing: facing satan in the garden. If Adam had thought correctly, he would have crafted the first sword and slew the dragon then and there for tempting his wife. And I personally believe it was in his power to do so. But of course he didn’t. So now Jesus becomes the fulfillment, the true knight in shining armor rescuing his bride, slaying the serpent by willfully succumbing to the dragon’s torment, the same torment Adam had feared which brought about his failure. Jesus however faced the fear head on and still prevailed. So… praise Jesus, basically. For being the Man none of us could be.

[@stephenbailey9969]

Hatred does not exist in itself. It is the withdrawing from love, love being a Divine good and the natural state of humanity. The more one pushes away love, the more the results are what we call 'hatred'. Affirming that we are to 'hate evil' is shorthand for saying we are to always uphold love and justice and desire the healing of humanity. Attempting to use hate to attack what we consider particular forms of hate is the wrong methodology, which will lead to harmful results (crusades, inquisitions, schisms, etc.).

[@lkae4]

Love is the natural state of humanity? Today?

[@jjphank]

Satan hates us because we are made in gods image, Righteous hatred does exist in the Bible it says hate what is evil cling to what is good! So it’s OK to hate what is evil!

[@stephenbailey9969]

@@lkae4 Whether through divinely gifted conscience or by moral teaching, the more that people approach the godly ideal of love, then the more naturally human they become. 'To love God and love other people is the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets.'

[@lkae4]

@@stephenbailey9969 Bible says the heart is more deceitful than anything. Bible says all have sinned and fall short, none are good but God. How do you harmonize that?

[@lkae4]

@@stephenbailey9969 If we're not naturally human to begin with, what are we naturally?

[@user-hf8qi5kl7s]

Makes me think of the inadequacy of the Star Wars mythos (even before it was hijacked and debased even further). Now it is being turned into poison, but before, even though it was starvation level subsistence, at least some meager nutrition was there in the midst of the new age / life denying love denying spiritism of it.

[@user-hf8qi5kl7s]

Like no space buddhist / stoics... love is good. And no space "nazis" evil actually isn't just having a lot of emotion, or what I think the phenomenologist call a "value-response". I think the jedi and sith reduced evil to "sentimentalism", following like - Hume.

[@carolm753]

9:28 does demonizing opposition not dehumanize? How can we ever trust ourselves to make this call (even if we find the “right” usage of it)? Does any small allowance for this hatred within our human capacity make sense? Whatever we deem is the right usage of hatred will be the right usage, am I right?😂 Have you read “the Origin of Satan” by Elaine Pagels? I highly HIGHLY would suggest it. She is the premier expert in exploring the social history of how society has utilized the idea of Satan and maps it on to perceived enemies; she follows this from the Hebrew Bible to early Christian history. And relates it to how we still utilize this view of Satan today. I would love to know if you would consider reading this. If you are at all on the fence on this topic and how we should consider “hatred” “enemies” “evil” and exploring if there is a “right usage” at all. Always thankful for Jesus’ words about loving our enemies that beckons us to hold our hatred at bay or at least will have us forever question it.

[@carolm753]

To further explain… I personally think unless we say “it is impossible to hate ONLY evil/Satan and not attribute it to people,” we will end up attributing it to people and misuse hatred. Aka there is no human way to accurately apply hate. THAT seems to be very true to me. Elaine puts it well when she says (and I paraphrase) when anyone is worried the world is going to hell in one way or another, that person usually has distinct names and faces in mind for who’s leading that charge. 😂🤷🏻‍♀️ If you’re open, that book is worth your consideration. Thanks!

[@carolm753]

What’s even FURTHER interesting is that Elaine wrote this book to channel her anger and hate better towards Satan (after some massive tragedies in her life) and ended up, instead of hating Satan, discovering more about Satan’s origin story and social “etymology” over time.

[@Lucas1Apple12]

Gavin it appears you might have been hacked on twitter? It seems out of character to be selling MacBooks for extremely cheap on your account,

[@user-jy6hd9uw8h]

His Dad posted on IG that Gavin's account was in fact hacked!

[@WayneDrake-uk1gg]

To understand the Godly sense of hatred, we could first define True Religion as a sort of self-sacrificial "love of life" that serves to progress humanity. We really need not limit this to humans, at all. The seeds of this were manifestly present to some degree in our primate ancestors, otherwise we would not be here today. I hesitate to call these monkey-men Christian because it's unclear whether they held to a doctrine of the Assumption of Mary, but that's somewhat tangential to my point, which is this: True Religion evolved by a Darwinian process of "natural selection" of meta narratives (or "Divine selection", insofar as, whatever Christ/God is, he seems to be intricately intertwined in the approval/condemnation of these dynamic and competitive religious constructs throught the genealogical line that got us from microbe to man, or from "Adam to Jesus", by way of metaphor). Our Godly primate ancestors exhibited "hatred" towards the ungodly (those whose behaviors ["metanarratives"] weren't conducive to the development towards humankind) through a process that perhaps mixed sexual quarantining with direct club-to-skull communication. In more recent human history, this selection-principled hatred has taken the form of national borders, sects, and the burning of heretics. These days, we seem to be progressing towards media and rhetorical influence, with echo chambers and block buttons

[@thomasrutledge5941]

"There are times when men's passions are much more trustworthy than their principles." - Alan W. Watts Quiznos Spongmonkeys We Love The Subs ad kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKazhY2Nnd9nbK8