Persona (2/2) (Persona) - Breaking Down Bergman - Episode #27 (Part 2)

[@ventricity]

this was the first bergman film i watched and i loved it. i had never seen anything like it. it was a complete shock for me, as i didn't know it was possible to make a film like that

[@ironhills]

I think there is a tie between the artist as cipher and shapeshifter in The Magician and the artist as shapeshifter and vampire in Persona. It remains an open question whether Elizabeth's refusal to speak is a breakdown at all. Most of what we see on the island is Alma speaking and Elizabeth listening, and the more Alma speaks the more she reveals. We and Alma know nothing of Elizabeth, only what we choose to believe, because objectively she reveals nothing. I believe that's why Bergman called his film "Persona", and that one of its major themes is the predatory nature of the artist. Elizabeth is not a sympathetic confidante. She is absorbing and utilizing Alma's confessions for her own ends.

[@RoyKoopaling]

It's fascinating, reading that comment, to learn that Vogel means 'bird' which Bergman was afraid of. This really adds to the idea that Elizabeth represents the shadow of the personality. It could very well be that neither character is real and that the whole film is a manifestation of the soul, or the personality.

[@davidtalon5553]

Sonia ! you nailed it a 100 percent of the film narrative , David stay quiet ! you go girl ! blessings .

[@jlent]

You mention the name Vogler. It's the name Bergman uses most often, it's in at least 6 of his films. It comes from the German word for bird, vogel. Bergman was afraid of birds so the name has become associated with threatening characters in his films. This adds to my certainty Alma is not only a real character but the main character. "Alma" means "soul" in Latin. Elizabet Vogler threatens the soul. A bit pat, sure. You could twist it to mean Alma is Elizabet's soul. But that's a stretch to me

[@jlent]

I guess I'll never convince you Alma and Elizabet are separate, but could you imagine what it would mean if A was real? What is it SHE picks up from E that causes her to connect so intensely and unravel so completely? Sonja, I agree E.'s non maternal quality is key but ask you to connect that to A's self revelation of her own maternal quality, how that revelation comes as a shock, and how it relates to the scene on the beach. Love to talk about the movie with you two. It's endlessly fascinating.

[@Badiouian]

When it's time for you to watch "Scenes from a marriage" and "Fanny and Alexander" - please watch and review the long uncut versions, otherwise you are missing out on what could be the greatest film experience of your life x 2.

[@ozjerk]

two characters or one split? I don't think they are personifications of fictitious characters in the usual narrative sense - though quite well realised - but of ideas about self-perception, and the self-referencing filmic intro is there for the writer/director to admit this aspect of his creation. Liv is so phenomenal as ever (silent but far more evocative than silent era actors) I was shocked to learn this was her first movie.

[@rjnagle]

I have watched this movie zillions of times and written about it and even taught it; I think an important theme is the misleading (or even duplicitous) nature of language. I have always wondered: do you think that Elizabeth literally called out at Alma when she was going to throw the pot of boiling water at her? (My friend and I disagree, my friend thinks that Elizabeth's yell is only imagined). Food for thought.

[@ernestov.campoy5998]

I thought the same thing and forgot about it!

[@prashunpcchakraborty70]

I think legitimate arguments can be made for both sides, Alma is the real character who is trying to cope up with her problems via Elizabeth or Elizabeth is the real character who has created Alma who had a sexual encounter with a stranger and got the baby aborted and thus in this respect more "successful" than her. However could it be that both the characters are different? They have both made mistakes and want to mend them and are absorbing one another's traits and characteristics to form a PERSONA an amalgamation of Alma and Elizabeth to deal with life's problems. Near the end of the film I think when we see Alma with Elizabeth's husband, Elizabeth is sort of summoning the Alma persona to deal with her husband because while her oldself can't, her Alma persona can.

[@Onmysheet]

Great interpretation!

[@moviehipster9168]

My think is Elisabeth his only real character in movie and Alma is hear persona.

[@nussefuffs2098]

Where can I see part 1 of your breaking down of Bergmans Persona ?

[@breakingdownfilms]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYi5e3iintCgm7M&google_comment_id=z12yv5jpoynmvdkx404cgvloasjpyv3xews0k&google_view_type=

[@breakingdownfilms]

It's apparently been blocked by United Screens, a company which rolls out bots to block videos without what we believe would be sufficient and reasonable consideration of fair use laws. It's a shame, and it's very labour intensive to appeal every single video their robots deem to be breaking laws. But we're in the process of getting the videos reinstated...again.

[@armensog87]

I guess I'm the only one who didn't enjoy persona that much. I'm on the "sacred simplicity" bergman bandwagon, and find the seventh seal/wild strawberries era the best. There are some very good movies in the later bergman, but they they some of them are trying too hard in my opinion, pushing the psyche strings instead of delivering the concept. Some of them have amazing character and psychology studies, but sometimes describing something simpler is more powerful than all the mental manipulations we see in later movies. But that's just me anyway:)

[@geniusmode1219]

I feel you guys are a bit pretentious saying that we might not understand Bergman as well as you guys do because you have seen more of his films. I've only seen 3 other bergman films and I feel like I understood it very deeply. In fact I didnt hear you guys mention once that maybe Elizabeth is alma persona, or the mask she wears to please pp, but deep down Alma is all the pain and anguish she doesnt show the world. Instead you guys superficially said they are two ppl and disnt sive much deeper. You also spoke nothing about the symbolism of the boy touching the face at the beginning. I'm not expert since I've only seen 4 Bergman movies, , but maybe you guys need to watch a few more Bergman movies too!