Peter Jackson Removed Gimli’s DARKEST Hour

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Hey you! 👀 Read along with me! 📖 Claim Andy Serkis’ narration of “The Fellowship of the Ring” on Audible *for FREE:* www.audibletrial.com/factorfantasyfellowship 👈 Every free trial supports the channel!

[@KanuckStreams]

I loved how Gimli, who had been taken into Lothlorien with a blindfold, to having been personally gifted three of Galadriel's own hairs before leaving with the Fellowship.

[@frederikkfoglfrey8664]

I love the scene where they get blindfolded. It shows the loyalty in the company and also Aragorns Skill to resolve Problems and bring people together.

[@ibrahimissaiaawad2888]

yep, good point about Aragorn's character

[@frederikkfoglfrey8664]

@@ibrahimissaiaawad2888 i just re-read book 4 and noticed that Frodo later took a leaf out of Aragorns book. When Faramir wanted to blindfold Gollum, Frodo said he should blindfold sam and him as well. I really liked that…

[@TheWanderingFire]

I love the fact that Durin's Crown is always visible in the Mirrormere. ‘This pillar marks the spot where Durin first looked in the Mirrormere,’ said the dwarf. ‘Let us look ourselves once, ere we go!’ They stooped over the dark water. At first they could see nothing. Then slowly they saw the forms of the encircling mountains mirrored in a profound blue, and the peaks were like plumes of white flame above them; beyond there was a space of sky. There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own stooping forms no shadow could be seen. ‘O Kheled-zâram fair and wonderful!’ said Gimli. ‘There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!’

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Love this part!

[@Raz.C]

Good man, for including the text!

[@Aethgeir]

Beautiful! Nobody writes description quite like Tolkien.

[@dougr.2398]

@@Aethgeiryou haven’t read Joseph Kessel’s “The Horsemen” about Afghanistan circa 1960. The description of the now national park of the Band-I.-Amir lakes and the entire book is his best. Translation is by Patrick O’Brian, himself a prolific and skillful author

[@Aethgeir]

@@dougr.2398 I'll add it to my reading list. I have read some O'Brien though.

[@mevb]

Actualy, the Mirror Mere is shown in the movie, although it's very briefly. It's right after we see Frodo shedding a tear for Gandalf right after Aragorn calls for him. We see Aragorn runs through a creek which is connected to a lake in the background. This IS the Mirror Mere, though no names were mentioned or any info about it as we need to get from Moria to Lothlorien quite quickly to not slow down the pace too much.

[@raphaelperry8159]

Gimli's greatest strength is the love he bears for his fellow companions and how he's not afraid to express his feelings. When he's angry with his friends or scolds them it's because he cares so much for them.

[@wolpertinger.]

He and Legolas were the best comedic duo in the movies. My favorite moment was at Helm's Deep, when Gimli couldn't see over the wall. Legolas" "Shall I describe it to you?" Gimli: 👁👄👁 Legolas: "or would you like me to find you a box?" Followed by Gimli's laughter was the best 😆

[@BrettWMcCoy]

I love the description of Cerin Amroth, where Aragorn is standing lost in thought, and hill being covered with elanor flowers. Frodo sees Caras Galadhon in the distance while standing on a flet in the trees and desires to grow wings and fly to the golden city. Just gorgeous imagery.

[@georgehopwood452]

I always loved the bit in the book about gollum following the fellowship in Moria, and only frodo could see two pale lights a distance off in the dark and he could hear his faint footsteps behind them that nobody else could hear. Chills

[@mhagain]

The "eyes of a hawk" scene was actually lifted straight out of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Even the framing is similar. Very strange, but once you see it - there are so many points of similarity.

[@Raz.C]

I don't remember it. Is it the one where he tells "Blondie" that the incoming troops are wearing grey, but they turn out to be Yankies, wearing blue? I watched it less than a year ago, but even so, that 'eyes of a hawk' thing doesn't jump out to me. Is it possible that you're confusing the name of the bad guy- Angel Eyes- with the dialogue "Eyes of a hawk?"

[@ZombieSpliffs]

@@Raz.C when Gimli's like "I have such sharp senses" and 40 elves appear just off path lol

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Water, pools and rivers were an essential part of ancient (British Celtic) culture, so Tolkien including paragraphs on them fits right in

[@Octotype]

I definitely think Peter Jackson made the right decision to shorten and remove many parts of the long track to Lothlorien. I imagine he knew what the audience needed, which is a place to land and have respite in the aftermath of Gandalf's fall. Any more danger or political drama would've been overwhelming for most audiences, so I imagine it was a very conscious decision on Peter's part. Even with the calm in the movie, people can still be overwhelmed and discouraged by Gandalf's fall, so I definitely think it was the right decision.

[@89334726]

No politics? In 7:40 it quite clearly states the were lines given to Gimli that weren't there that make him look bad. Also the whole elf vs dwarf racial interaction is far more tense in the movie than in the book which imo kinda paints the durin's folk as the bad guy.

[@death-king1834]

I do wish he had kept Gimli being asked to be blindfolded, and Aragorn making a compromise that all the Fellowship shall be blindfolded so that Gimli need not suffer alone.

[@theoncomingstorm7903]

Can't wait for Gimli's gift being a Feanor reference, always found that funny

[@Raz.C]

With Feanor being her uncle, asking for some of her hair may have just seemed creepy to her, in a way that would have been flattering if it were a complete stranger.

[@DisFantasy]

@@Raz.C I took it as a sign of her pride and vanity. Allowing a part of herself to become a fixture in something he created would have diluted her own beauty. While he would surely create something amazing, it would have drawn comparisons, something she may have found threatening. Giving Gimli the hairs shows she's overcome that negative aspect of herself. She's been humbled.

[@Raz.C]

@@DisFantasy Wonderful insight. Thank you for sharing.

[@bryanhikes7248]

Gimlis lowest point is on the paths of the dead when he's afraid to go into the cave.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Can’t wait to cover that scene!

[@sirboredom1012]

He still does it though.

[@bryanhikes7248]

@@factorfantasyweekly I love how gimli thinks to himself how shameful it is that an elf will go underground when a dwarf dare not. He's really one of my favorite characters!

[@keithtorgersen9664]

Agreed, with an equally low point being Gimli's departure from Lothlorien and his heart breaking over being away from Galadriel. He wasn't romantically attracted to her, but her benevolence to him was so overpowering that he along with the rest of the company weep over having to leave her and Lothlorien.

[@agentbuckwheat]

@@keithtorgersen9664 he was also attracted to her

[@bo-audhd]

Can we appreciate the fact that the film creators did everything to avoid an offscreen voice? They had to make a lot of changes because of it. Like if all the members of the party were blindfolded who looks at Lothlorien? Through whose eyes does the viewer see it for the first time? It was a necessary sacrifice i believe

[@ezrahendog5837]

I like that the books build how Borormir to have Legitimate feelings of unimportantace. If you think about it, He is a Captain of Gondor. He is used to Calling the shots. In his mind going back the way we came makes sense. Going to Minas Tirirh makes sense. He went through with the Fellowship's plan and they almost died. Borormir, would feel like his skills were better applied at home in Gondor. He has spent his life fighting Mordor. It makes sense he would want to Use the ring to gain an advantage against Mordor. .

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Plus, he really wasn’t a true “member of the fellowship” but more so an addition simply because he needed to head back to Minas Tirith. Kinda a “well, we’re walking the same way!” type of thing. So I’m sure he was frustrated quite a bit. 😂

[@ezrahendog5837]

@@factorfantasyweekly I need to read the books again. I'm not sure if he actually got the advice he was looking for.

[@shawn092182]

​@@ezrahendog5837He did. He went to Rivendell to get answers concerning his dream.

[@georgestauber2636]

He was right. Boromir should've been leading the armies of Minas Tirith. Faramir should've been in the fellowship.

[@bluesbest1]

@@ezrahendog5837 He went to Imladris looking for an interpretation of his dream and that's about all he got from the trip, unless you count Aragorn being talked into returning with him, which is then called into question after Moria.

[@TillionTirrion]

Really enjoying this series.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Legend! 🙏🏼 Thanks for supporting my work. Glad you’re enjoying it!

[@factorfantasyweekly]

DOUBLE legend 👀 just realized this is your second time!

[@CosmicCleric]

Glad KZbin suggested your video/channel to me, as I've always wanted to know a concise list of the differences between the books and movies.

[@11cabadger]

As the years go by, I've noticed that my brain edited out a lot of the changes. I could have sworn Gimli got blindfolded and sputtered in protest.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

He did threaten to go home. 👀 But once Aragorn said that Legolas would get blindfolded as well, he was more than happy to do it. 😂

[@11cabadger]

@@factorfantasyweekly thank you❣️

[@witchhazel4135]

​@factorfantasyweekly I thought Aragorn said that they would all get blindfolded, but Gimli said that he would be satisfied if only Legolas is blindfolded as well. Then, Legolas throws a fit. Therefore, they were all blindfolded.

[@selwynevonbeereskow8053]

Hooray, the next episode is here! Thank you so much. May I add a little detail? The place where Aragorn met Arwen and where they got engaged was not Caras Galathon but Cerin Amroth, a hill in the vicinity of Caras Galathon where the Niphredil and Elanor were blossoming. And in the books this is the place that Aragorn calls "the heart of Elvendom on earth". Cerin Amroth was omitted in the films. One only gets a tiny little glimpse of it in the scene of Arwens death but it is not named.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Yes! Thanks for mentioning this. I realized this error much later after the fact. Figured someone smart would help me out in the comments. 🙏🏼

[@Renzonio]

A really fun detail rarley spoken about is that you watch the LOTR in the perspective of a hobbit. Most camera shots are from a low angel. only when u see the hobbits the camera is straight :D

[@wolpertinger.]

And here I thought it was because we all wanted a POV of Aragorn from down on our knees Omfg I'm the worst, I'll see myself out 😬

[@bookworm4174]

I think you may have confused Caras Galadhon and Cerin Amroth. They are two separate locations. The fellowship reaches Cerin Amroth first, which is where Aragorn previously met Arwen and holds a flower thinking of her. It is a single tree surrounded by two rings of trees. Haldier in the book calls it "the heart of the ancient realm" and Aragorn calls it "The heart of elvendom on earth." It is where Amroth from the song about Nimrodel lived. Since they skip this location in the movies, Haldier calls the tree city of Caras Galadhon "the heart of elvendom on Earth" instead. This is where they meet Galadriel. It is an actual city with a green wall and buildings built in the trees.

[@michael1345]

I was hoping the clip would get to the part where Galadriel welcomes Gimli in his own tongue and speaks of the wonders of Moria. That sets up the desire of Gimli to ask for three strands of Galadriel's hair as respect and acceptance of the dwarves and elves.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Welp, stick around for next week. 👀

[@Skuggan84]

Did Gimli actually ask for the hair though? I thought it was Galadriels initiative to give them to Gimli and that he didn't ask for anything. Just seeing her beauty was a gift enough. Then again. It's years since I read Lotr so my memory is more then fuzzy for the most parts.

[@3DTyrant]

@@Skuggan84 I don't know about in the books as I've unfortunately not yet read them, but in the movie Gimli at first doesn't ask for a gift, but then asks for a single hair.

[@raphaelperry8159]

He asks for a single hair so that he can take it home and turn it into a museum exhibit that anyone and everyone would be welcome to come and see.

[@Makkaru112]

​@@raphaelperry8159it turned into a powerful heirloom set into imperishable crystal and essentially hold the calming and empowering light of the Two Trees of Valinor in a replacement Nauglamir called the Galadramir.

[@matthaeusdecuiavia8637]

This series became one of my favourites on KZbin, especially because some time has passed since I've read Tolkien's books.

[@deathangel7335]

That rope bridge Fact or Fantasy forgot about? That was literally a single rope across a river, not like a whole bridge woven out of ropes with some boards to walk on. They did it that way so they could untie and retract the rope to protect the areas beyond, deeper into Lothlorian. The elves could cross it without a problem, but they had to condescend and add another rope for everyone else in the Fellowship to hold on to for balance. ...and another one at half-height for the hobbits and dwarf.

[@markg9178]

I think Gimli's darkest hour was when he discovered Balin's fate.

[@Chellebelle121]

Pausing the narration with the Windows error sound? Timestamp and date on one side, random lines frozen across the screen, and then the label of VCR tape on the other side? Took me back dude, hilarious….Haven’t seen or heard any of that for forever!

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

I have reason to believe the Orc attack at the borders of Lothlorien _was_ originally in the shooting script and even partially filmed before being cut. I remember that back in 2001, before the movie came out in December, the Internet was bursting with leaks, speculations, trailers, and photos from the shoot. There was a scene in one of the trailers which showed the Fellowship at the edge of a forest, running towards the forest, fleeing from something unseen, with Legolas turning around and firing an arrow behind him "at the camera". But the bow he was holding was _not_ the white Lorien bow he received from Galadriel later, but the dark brown wooden bow Legolas had with him when he arrived in Rivendell and which he carried when Haldir stopped the Fellowship. Which mean that at some point, scenes _had_ been shot of the Fellowship in a fight _before_ they entered Lothlorien, with them fleeing into the forest.

[@juergen_von_strangle]

You’re right, there are many photos and reels of the scene being shot along with storyboard templates of how the scene would’ve played out. I believe it would’ve gotten cut before editing which is why it never appears in the extended edition.

[@nosuchthingasahandlefools]

When Haldir and Aragorn speak Sindarin, you forgot to turn on your captioning. (the one and only blessing of being hearing impaired).

[@victorfinberg8595]

"nothing goes over my head" - gimli

[@kevmey6]

I know he's not part of this scene but another change I can't forgive Peter Jackson for is the lack of Glorfindel, the other Dunedain, all the songs etc....

[@SuStel]

In the movies, Sting glows blue. In the book, Sting "flashed and glittered like a blue flame"; it doesn't glow.

[@TheVoitel]

If you have very polished steel you can get a blueish reflection of light. I like to interpret these scenes somewhat in this direction. The blue flashlight sword is a tad bit ridiculous ...

[@AnOldeSpartan]

​@@TheVoitelWithout going into detail and to try and put it in simple terms. The reason the Elvish swords of Gondolin glow blue, is because they are made with a similar magic to the Rings of Power. The sword makers literally put some of their own essence and personality into the sword. This means that the swords take on a personality of their own. Including the absolute hatred Elves have for Orcs & Goblins. This is why they glow blue in the precence of them. It is by no means "A tad bit ridiculous" to glow blue.

[@TheVoitel]

@@AnOldeSpartan Um ... and where exactly did you take this from?

[@jachyra9]

@@TheVoitel - What's truly ridiculous is forgetting perspective in writing. What the omniscient narrator describes as "glittering like a blue flame" can be interpreted by a character, or represented visually, as glowing. You know, how to the audience watching a Star Wars movie a lightsaber blade glows... but to a character who's never seen one before, they might describe the blade as "aflame." Jackson screwed up enough where it counts to bother with excoriating him for where it doesn't: I couldn't care less that Jackson opted to depict the Galadhrim as blonde supermodels on a constant Wellbutrin hangover, or that he genuinely didn't understand that "The Eye of Sauron" is a synecdoche. And I certainly don't care that Sting "glows" as opposed to "flashes and glitters." Either way, it's going to be a special effect.

[@TheVoitel]

@@jachyra9 The thing is that Jackson misinterprets the Lord of the Rings as a fantasy stroy, when it is in fact fantasy about a story. To Tolkien Middleearth is not some fictive world, but rather other world, just with a fictive history. So things should in my opinion remain believable. Lord of the Rings works by obscuring things. Not by putting a giant flaming eye on top of a weird tower. And I do not have a particular problem with them using a VFX. But it could have been done less torchlighty in my opinion. Give the sword some slight blue shimmer. Use it to build tension. Such things.

[@codyray3344]

I imagine bodies of water, especialy ones with intricate details are hard to recreate, not to mention filming on/in or around water is a pain in the ass. Plus, the crew has really bad luck when it comes to it, Sam's actor got his foot impaled on a large shard of glass in the scene where he is chasing after frodo who is trying to leave him and Peter jackson originally wanted to do fight scene on the river similar to the one he eventually did in the hobbit, but the site got flooded and they had to nix it.

[@juergen_von_strangle]

There was a cut sequence from the film where Goblins are tracking the fellowship into Lothlorien and are ambushed by Haldir’s company. There is behind the scenes footage and storyboard templates confirming it.

[@adorp]

The indfold scene shows Aragorn's leadership skills. It should have stayed. Gandalf is powerful. But he is a bit too powerful. Haldir would not have dared pull that off if Gandalf was there. I think it is one of the reasons Gandalf couldn't be with the fellowship for long. It allowed other characters to shine.

[@seregnis]

The movie Gandalf would have still jumped at the chance to troll Gimli 🤣

[@keithtorgersen9664]

When Gimli was insulting Haldir in the film, was he supposed to be speaking Elvish? If so, then it makes sense that Aragorn would rebuke him. But if it was dwarvish, then it makes no sense that Aragorn would understand what he is saying, because the dwarves fiercely guard their language and do not teach it to anyone, in the books.

[@yadbor]

I imagine that he is speaking Westron, the common language of Men, Hobbits and many others in the Third Age. Everyone present would speak Westron, and as you say Kuzdhul was rarely heard by any non-dwarf who lived to tell of it.

[@Jennagosu]

actually, both Rúmil and Orophin were in the movie without speaking roles and shown scarcely, played by Jørn Benzon and Jason Secto respectively. The fun fact is that the elf accompanying Elrond in Return of the King is played by the former's brother and is supposed to be... Glorfindel, kinda hilarious, found out just a few years ago myself, a long time after the movies

[@charlespirate1]

Haldir was just manufactured jeopardy. The book is about setting and character more than plot. That doesn’t work so well in a blockbuster film. So Jackson padded the story with manufactured jeopardy throughout.

[@ComedyBros5]

Manufactured jeopardy?

[@charlespirate1]

@@ComedyBros5 yep

[@ComedyBros5]

@@charlespirate1 Please explain the definition because I've never heard this terminology.

[@death-king1834]

Apprantly in early storyboards and even in some deleted footage, the Orcs of Moria do enter Lothlorien and give chase to the Fellowship.

[@richardsanchez5444]

1:23 in the movie i wouldn't say he welcomed them with open arms, they had arrows pointed at them ans you cam kinda hear the disdain in haldirs voice.

[@CrimznRaven]

i just refinished my copy's of TLoTR by rob inglis so your videos have come at the right time

[@gnm4]

Love these keep it up mate

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Thanks for watching!

[@bukvajzr]

Nice video but I also dont understand why Peter Jackson did not involve any reaction of Gimli to the Balrog into the movie. It just gives me goosebumps to think about how its written in the books when he sees It.

[@Slowdough99]

Because it's a movie. People need to get a grip on visual media vs reading. The movie is 3.5 hours, you adapt a book to visual media page by page and your making a 10 hour film with a billion dollar budget. No once cares what was changed. The trilogy is still to this day the greatest triumph in adaptation. We all know what was cut. No one cares in reality. You can't do a one for one. It's not possible. Hence the word ADAPTATION. NOT COPY

[@fantasywind3923]

Yeah...at the very least some one awe/terrified look and line of Gimli would have done it...just him speaking....Durin's Bane in terror! Or something like that would work.

[@bukvajzr]

@@fantasywind3923 exactly man

[@KeithDameo]

I like your videos. In my opinion, the racism between the elves and Gimli from the books is good for the books but not for the movie. We already got that there was racism between them from the way Gimli and Legolas interacted earlier on and to be perfectly honest... most of us already knew about that just from knowing about elves and dwarves from well... anything... Back to the opinion piece. The extra from the books would be just excessive without really adding anything. What we got from the interactions I mentioned was enough for the pay off where Gimli and Legolas admitting they were friends to be an emotional feel good moment.

[@bullseyecooper1739]

On the subject of sting, the writing on the blade says “my name is Sting, I am the spider’s bane” I wonder why they left this out?

[@treydixon5399]

The whole introduction to Haldir and the walk deeper into the forest are amazing in the book. The elves and dwarves genuinely distrust each other. The discussion about blindfolding Gimli gives you a chance to see Aragorn as a leader (so soon after losing Gandalf) and we get to see Legolas actually angry. But my favorite part is after they all agree to be blindfolded. Gimli essentially says he'll get revenge for every stumble or stubbed toe. Haldir replies that no revenge will be needed. As distrustful as he is of some random dwarf showing up at his home, his personal pride and honor can't let him let Gimli suffer even the slightest harm. Haldir isn't a main character, not even a minor one. Basically an extra in the book. But JRRT makes him a real person, with a past and a culture. I cannot blame Jackson for clipping that side story but I really appreciated how Tolkien gave even such a small character a great portrait and a heartwarming arch.

[@maisaparviainen3357]

Again! Great video 🔥

[@LarsOlsen-nd2eu]

Love these videos, keep it up 👍🏼

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Thanks!

[@khartog01]

It's been a while since I read the books, but I remember this part decently .

[@mevb]

An alternative entrance to Lothlorien was shot when the Moria Goblins that chases after The Fellowship, catches up as they are in the forest. Legolas turns around to fire at them when suddenly dozens of arrows are fired and kills all the orcs and Legolas in surprise fires his arrow and therefore killing the last orc standing. Suddenly, Gimli and the hobbits are grabbed and pulled up while ropeladders roll down, which Aragorn, Legolas and Boromir climbs up, reaching up toplattforms among the trees. As they get up, they see more Moria Goblins run underneath, trying to find The Fellowship. Haldir, who stands with them say "They crossed the waters of the Nimrodel. Curse their foul feet! Orcs have dared enter Lothlórien. They will not leave it alive." This cuts to the scene on the plattform as in the movie (or at least the Extended Edition).

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Interesting 👀 didn’t know that

[@matthewperales9912]

Gimli: A merry bunch of fools we shall look. Will Haldir lead us on a string like beggars with one dog? But I shall be content if only Legolas shares my blindness. Legolas: I AM AN ELF AND A KINSMAN HERE! Really does illustrate how arrogant and prejudist elves can be. Gimli and Legolas have been traveling together this whole time and Legolas never once speaks in Gimli's defense as a comrade only getting angry at the mention that he should be blindfolded as well.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

There’s a very interesting shift that happens once they get to meet with Galadriel, which I’ll cover next week. But strangely, Gimli and Legolas become fast friends after that point. 👀

[@matthewperales9912]

Yes, the interactions between Galadriel and Gimli and there outcomes are some of my favorite parts of the story, to me it shows how a simple act of kindness can change the heart of someone. I look forward to your next video.

[@fantasywind3923]

Well it shows actually that both Elves AND Dwarves can be quite similar in many aspects...at first Gimli threatens to turn back..his pride was also insulted...then he finds that moment of humor and it's the Legolas turn to get irritated...both peoples have reasons, both individuals are of somewhat high rank and lineage and have sense of personal dignity etc. Aragorn defuses the situation when he speaks: "This was not at all to the liking of Gimli. ‘The agreement was made without my consent,’ he said. ‘I will not walk blindfold, like a beggar or a prisoner. And I am no spy. My folk have never had dealings with any of the servants of the Enemy. Neither have we done harm to the Elves. I am no more likely to betray you than Legolas, or any other of my companions.’ ‘I do not doubt you,’ said Haldir. ‘Yet this is our law. I am not the master of the law, and cannot set it aside. I have done much in letting you set foot over Celebrant.’ Gimli was obstinate. He planted his feet firmly apart, and laid his hand upon the haft of his axe. ‘I will go forward free,’ he said, ‘or I will go back and seek my own land, where I am known to be true of word, though I perish alone in the wilderness.’ ‘You cannot go back,’ said Haldir sternly. ‘Now you have come thus far, you must be brought before the Lord and the Lady. They shall judge you, to hold you or to give you leave, as they will. You cannot cross the rivers again, and behind you there are now secret sentinels that you cannot pass. You would be slain before you saw them.’ Gimli drew his axe from his belt. Haldir and his companion bent their bows. ‘A plague on Dwarves and their stiff necks!’ said Legolas. ‘Come!’ said Aragorn. ‘If I am still to lead this Company, you must do as I bid. It is hard upon the Dwarf to be thus singled out. We will all be blindfold, even Legolas. That will be best, though it will make the journey slow and dull.’ Gimli laughed suddenly. ‘A merry troop of fools we shall look! Will Haldir lead us all on a string, like many blind beggars with one dog? But I will be content, if only Legolas here shares my blindness.’ ‘I am an Elf and a kinsman here,’ said Legolas, becoming angry in his turn. ‘Now let us cry: “a plague on the stiff necks of Elves!”’ said Aragorn. ‘But the Company shall all fare alike. Come, bind our eyes, Haldir!’" This sort of shows the two races/people being not so different.

[@shawn092182]

You are what you hate.

[@wolpertinger.]

Boromir is getting the same treatment from the fellowship as Faramir is getting from their father 😂

[@sorikonnor]

Good content man 👍

[@punchout2418]

I wish they had given Haldir more character development in the films. His death in Two Towers really doesn't have much weight. His death is made out to be super dramatic but guaranteed most people in the audience who haven't read the books were thinking "I guess I am really supposed to care about this guy. Who is he?"

[@Mathemagical55]

I always thought Aragorn's leadership into Lothlorien was extremely casual. They stop for a meal and later turn in for the night with a company of orcs and wargs from Moria just a few hours behind them. If they hadn't encountered Haldir and his brothers they would have been caught and killed in the night.

[@jachyra9]

You're right. Aragorn should have turned off the highway and took them to a Motel 6, then called the cops on the orcs. Bruh totally dropped the ball. 🙄

[@shawn092182]

​@@jachyra9 There were no motels off the highway around that area. Their best option was to reach the borders of Lothlorien as soon as possible and check into the Border Inn.

[@jachyra9]

@@shawn092182 - No motels? Really? Wow... the stuff you learn from internet strangers...

[@sanddagger36]

Tolkein had already written a whole book about dozens of dwarves, he didn't need to explain why elves didn't like them. However, Jackson only has one dwarf to show everyone what dwarves are like, and thus the least dwarf-life dwarf in history ends up being treated like the standard for dwarves in them movies.

[@Mr_Timi1]

It's not a free trial if I have to enter my CC information.

[@ivantimofeev6580]

So Gimli's darkest hour was the hour of him being in the dark simply because he was blindfolded. Wow, I love it.

[@InsaneRabbitDaddy]

The great failing of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings (Yes, Peter Jackson's, not JRR Tolkien's) is that during production, when people were asking what would be included from the book, and what omitted, Jackson said that they had to leave out many things such as Tom Bombadil simply because there wasn't enough time. Fair enough, but then Jackson, having removed so much of the book, then went ahead and made up a bunch of shit, and stuck it in.

[@texastate6296]

Still amazing movie and additions. Tom Bombadill is never really needed. Was kind of pointless in the book.

[@jachyra9]

@@texastate6296 - If you genuinely believe that Tom Bombadil wasn't "needed" as was "pointless" in the book, then, like Peter Jackson, you didn't understand the book. At all.

[@gandalf8216]

That's the nature of adapting books into movies. You have to cut out things which does not fit the narrative chosen for the movie, while a novel has a greater range of possible kinds of narratives, often in parallel. So if you remove elements that existed in the novel, because it does not fit the more strictly defined narrative chosen for the movie, you may have to add elements which never were in the novel, because the narrative of the movie demands it. PJ's choice of trying to appeal to two audiences at once - the fans of the books, and those that had never read the books - is simultaneously the greatest strength and weakness of the movie adaption, because it both appeals and disappoints both audiences.

[@jachyra9]

@@gandalf8216 - Peter Jackson never had to make such a choice. The Lord of the Rings has been read by over 150,000,000 people and translated into forty languages. This would indicate that people are all over the world from different cultures were more than willing to accept what Tolkien wrote as is. Jackson didn't understand The Lord of the Rings and made his choices based on that. No one knows what will or will not appeal to anyone, and Jackson's additions are stupid in addition to being unnecessary.

[@texastate6296]

@@jachyra9 I do understand the meaning in the books but it’s not necessary in the movies. Even reading the book and seeing some lines that were moved to other characters sounds better. Just because Tolkien wrote it doesn’t mean things couldn’t be improved or switched around and sometimes sound better especially from a book to movie.

[@kalebhopewilcom8876]

Why I wasn't recommended this channel a long time ago I have no idea (Lights Pipe)

[@charlespirate1]

Jackson made Gimli absurd comic relief. The book character is a much more nuanced, sophisticated and interesting character. I understand why Jackson did it but it was lowest common denominator stuff. Appealing for cheap laughs.

[@davemccage7918]

It worked for the better though. FotR is actually a pretty dark movie, probably the darkest of the entire franchise. I remember seeing it in theaters when I was 13 and being terrified. Two main character deaths, a couple of death fake outs and even a brief torture scene. Had it not been for Gimli the movie would have been too depressing for general audiences.

[@uvicjames]

@@davemccage7918 Sure, but the problem is that Pippin and Gimli become TOO much of a comic relief duo. Also, Jackson makes the same mistake that he would go on to make in the Hobbit... namely, you can't have pathos when the characters are flippant and engaged in cartoonish action.

[@johnnyringo2690]

What makes the laughs cheap?

[@charlespirate1]

@@johnnyringo2690 the character being 2D

[@charlespirate1]

@@davemccage7918 that’s my point really. It was aimed at 13yo movie going kids. Which is commercially sensible. To many book lovers it felt cartoonish.

[@89334726]

Now I'm curious about the narrative behind Jacksons changes. Was it just to save money in production or something else and if yes, why.

[@charlespirate1]

The book’s appeal are chiefly setting and character. It unfolds slowly. People don’t have patience for that in a blockbuster movie. So Jackson added manufactured jeopardy throughout (eg Haldir refusing entry to Lorien) and removed nuance and detail. He dumbed it down. That’s not a criticism. It was necessary if the films were to be a commercial success. Huge amounts of money had been spent and needed to be recouped.

[@TezKingboom]

soooo much got removed or changed

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

The LotR movies were already incredibly long, even in their theatrical version... remember, back in the early 2000s, movies longer than 2 hours were incredibly rare, and anything 3 hours or longer forced movie theatres to add a break in the middle of the movie. They had to cut _something._ And no offence but the Mirror Mere, while very poetic, is _exposition filler._ It has no bearing on the Ring War plot. In the novel, it's Tolkien taking the reader on a scenic tourist tour, adding more "lore"... and even more in the Appendices.

[@jachyra9]

"remember, back in the early 2000s, movies longer than 2 hours were incredibly rare" Incredibly rare? Really? Here is a small list of films from the nineties and into the early 2000s that are all well over the two-hour mark, most of them three hours or more: Pulp Fiction, Schindler's List, Malcolm X, The Shawshank Redemption, Forrest Gump, JKF, Braveheart, Titanic, Magnolia, Boogie Nights, Nixon, Until the End of the World, True Lies, Hamlet, Eyes Wide Shut, Cast Away, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, Ray, Catch Me If You Can I've watched all of these movies in theaters at the time of their initial release. I don't recall any of them ever having an intermission in the middle. Because no movie theater would see the logic in making an already long movie longer and reducing ever further the number of screenings per day. "They had to cut something." Understanding what to cut stems from understanding the story in the first place. To whit: " the Mirror Mere, while very poetic, is exposition filler. It has no bearing on the Ring War plot" By your logic, neither did two wizards having an MMA match. Neither did sending Elves to Helm's Deep, which did not change the outcome of the battle at all. Neither did having Aragorn deny his heritage, break up with his girlfriend and fall off a cliff. I could go one... for a while... "In the novel, it's Tolkien taking the reader on a scenic tourist tour, adding more "lore"" It's telling that you place the word lore in quotations, even though you aren't directly quoting someone, which I implies that you believe there is a separation between the necessities of story and plot( though like most you don't understand these terms ) and the layers of rich detail that Tolkien took so much effort to include. Yeah, it's just, like, filler, bruh. Boring and unnecessary. 🙄

[@alexanderdooley5833]

Just catching this video, i have always said making them movies was a mistake. the entire series of books should have been 1 hour episode tv series.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Still a possibility in the future. But I’d be too scared that they would ruin it in other ways if they tried to do a tv show version. 💀

[@Raz.C]

Hi mate I don't want to be super picky, so I'm not going to bring up any mistakes you might have made. But I would like to ask you to please speak more thoughtfully. It's possible that trying to speak quickly is causing you to make mistakes that you otherwise wouldn't make. But other than those very minor things I noticed, I'm quite happy with the video. Well done :)

[@factorfantasyweekly]

It’s important to know that I’m no Tolkien expert, I’m just a fan of the movies and books. I haven’t been studying this stuff for 20+ years like a lot of my fellow Middle Earth KZbinrs. 😂 This is just a fun project for me, and if there are any errors (that have not already been pointed out), I encourage people to mention them so we can all learn together as a community! Thanks for watching!

[@Ukrainer2022]

Well Sherlock, it's not usual for Jackson to make everything short, we can see only that can squeeze into 3 hours of the timeline

[@cparle87]

I think he should've kept it. Jackson cut a lot of side and supporting characters, especially a bunch of named elves, out.

[@marckrieger3277]

Wait Aragon used Kings Foil? I thaugt this plant only grew were people with numenorien decent lived? Did they made it this far? Great video by the way!

[@LadyAlaina42-c3e]

Aragon is a Dunadine...descended from Numnor.

[@fusssypucker]

I didn’t really dig how they portrayed Gimli in the movies

[@katmandoism]

A little different? Ohh please. It's nothing like books.

[@countiblis1246]

I thought you were gonna tell the bit about when they got him drunk and shaved his beard off.

[@taylormunson3605]

I get it. It's his DARKEST hour because he walks for an hour blindfolded.

[@SpeedandSplendor]

I don't think they should have cut anything from the books but that would make for 5 hour movies with $500m budgets 😂

[@ElvenRaptor]

Ugh. This scene really pissed me off. It's not a bad scene, or one I would want removed, but the fact being a member of Elrond's chosen Fellowship was still not enough to get Gimli any slack. The films were sanitized Haldir, and I guarantee people would have probably been cheering when he died in the film version if he'd subjected Gimli to the blindfolding like in the book.

[@keithtorgersen9664]

@factorfantasyweekly, this is a side point in the discussion, but I keep hoping that one day an expert in Tolkien's writings who is the mystery elf progenitor in Dol Amroth, whether it could be Nimrodel herself, Amroth, or some other elf. There are the 3 official Elf/Human unions in lore, but then there is mystery 4th union to explain the humans of Dol Amroth having elf heritage.

[@uvicjames]

Interesting... haven't heard of this before. I thought the people of Dol Amroth were merely human descendants of the Numenoreans who had kept their bloodline relatively pure.

[@keithtorgersen9664]

@@uvicjames In the Return of the King novel, Legolas himself addresses Prince Imrahel and his people as some who have elf blood, though it's mystery as to who their ancestors were.

[@dragonabsurda]

While I prefer the nuance of Tolkien's original approach here, I understand the choice Jackson made. There's a clearer line drawn in the movies between "good" and "evil." Evil is driven by Sauron's influence, which is not the cause of the racial tensions here. I think the more nuanced world feels more real, but this is a condensed version of the stories made for a different media and audience. It's possible it just didn't translate well given their constraints. It's along the same lines as their reasoning for changing Faramir as much as they did, which drove me crazy when I first saw the films. I didn't like it, but their explanation made sense.

[@ghandimauler]

One of the stupider moments in the movie: Let's have the archers point their arrows 3" from the head of the fellowship. It's ridiculous. Surround them, yes. Get that close? Why?

[@jose280714]

The reality is that the books are very different ...🙂 ...

[@kalrandom7387]

I'm a new subscriber of yours, so far I have really enjoyed what you are doing, except the speed at which you speak. This is a deep dive on the differences of a much loved book and movie series, yet your speaking pace sounds as if you're late for something extremely more important than your video. Slow it down some, the people that are your target audience more than likely have read the books (more than once) have the 3 solid days of viewing extended directors editions of the movies (and watched more than once), we have time for your deep dive if we clicked on the video. Just a suggestion from someone who is a fan of the subject matter and mainly watches KZbin for their video entertainment.

[@Occatuul]

I completely disagree. Are you sure your playback speed isn't increased?

[@patmagh]

Didn't you read the book? He is called Gumli.

[@barbarossarotbart]

in my opinion Peter Jackson did a very bad job with this scenes.

[@block_01_]

For the films are you using the extended editions? I’ve never watched the theatrical releases so I don’t know the differences

[@thh420]

and Gimli comes out of it SWINGING NUTS after asking for and getting hair from the hottest chick in all of creation. his 8'11 game made the elves respect his pimp swagger.

[@memphismartin196]

Rashford isn't inconsistent Adam, he's consistently rubbish!

[@blueshit199]

why are you all using AI generated thumbnails for these videos about Gimli?

[@maartenl.1365]

It is sad the butchered the books to make the movie, *BUT...* Peter Jackson had gone to multiple production companies and got shot down by all. New line cinema invested everything they had into LotR. And only after the succes of the first movie was there money for the CGI of the second and third. Yes, they should have made it into 6 movies and much closer to the books. Tom Bombadil should be in it and Glorfindel Lord of Golden Flower was the one that saved Frodo, not Arwen. Further Arwen would not have had the inner light, as she was born hundreds of years after the trees of light were drained. And looking upon those trees is what filled elves with the inner light. Elrond himself was born after the trees died. And he is Arwens father. #1. The Ring Sets Out #2 The Ring Goes South #3 The Treason of Isengard #4 The Ring Goes East #5 The War of the Ring #6 The End of the Third Age And all 6 could make for 2.5 - 3 hour movies easily. But money was tight, so they did the best they could.

[@Raz.C]

Dude.......... Movie vs Manuscript? For Lord of the Rings??? You could publish a multi volume encyclopedia on those differences!!! Why would you do this to yourself? Voluntarily?

[@ibrahimissaiaawad2888]

I think its more interesting to keep all of the fictional details. as it is through them that Tolkien builds the story, and gives it depth and imaginative continuity.

[@squirrelsyrup1921]

asking a girl for some of her hair is a low point

[@SuStel]

You basically said "Caras Galadon" correctly. Just voice your "dh."

[@factorfantasyweekly]

I’m getting closer!

[@SomeIdiotLUL]

Gimlie lowest point broke back mtn the fellowship of the other ring

[@adamethridge7824]

The books are always better

[@paulsmodels]

Peter Jackson is a good movie maker, but skipped, and left out to much, Also, he added things the movie that were not in the books.

[@gandalf4751]

😍✅✅😍

[@notsure7060]

Your voice ..... its so ... im the drunk fool that

[@katmandoism]

Not a chance! Can't stand the movies

[@Stevie-L-n8g]

The American accent doesn't really lend itself to Tokien does it? Lathlowrian!

[@danielbronks4234]

Neither does rudeness. Don’t watch if you don’t appreciate his love for the books and generosity and effort.

[@RetroJack]

With Peter Jackson somehow forgetting to put all of a 1,200+ page book on screen, I guess there will always be plenty of low-hanging fruit for KZbinrs to pick from.

[@EricKoonitsky-s1d]

Removing racism from the source material seemingly draws a lot less outrage from all the self styled originalists. Although I suppose that's not saying a whole lot when changes in the other direction are literally described as "the collapse of Western civilization".

[@dalepride8671]

Youve already failed.witj youre queer views.