Did the first 4 Caliphs Exist? Mel, from Sneaker's Corner

Mel, from Sneaker's Corner, along with a Middle Eastern Arab scholar named 'Murad', came on to Pfanderfilms to discuss whether we can find any historical evidence for the first 4 'rightly guided Caliphs' (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali) in the 7th century.
He began by asking the question "Who am I? My mother’s name is Amina. One of my wives is called Zaynab. I also have another wife called Aisha.
Obviously these three categories would fit for Muhammad himself, yet, these 3 are all true of the Caliph Marwan, who ruled for only one year, from 684-685, and was the father of Abd al-Malik. The coincidence that he would have the same mother and wives as Muhammad are too high to believe. So, Mel asked, could these names have been used by the later traditions for Muhammad's story?
What about the usage of the word 'Caliph'? There are no rock inscriptions in the 7th century which uses the term الخليفة (Caliph). The term which was used was 'Amir Al Mu'minin' (commander of the faithful) which doesn't even denote a sense of a successor. The term 'Caliph' was a shortening of Khalīfat Rasūl Allāh and meant "successor of the messenger of God“.
According to Robert Hoyland, in his book 'Seeing Islam as Others Saw it: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian (Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam Studies in Late Antiquity and
Early Islam, The Darwin Press 1998), the Doctrina Jacobi (634 AD) mentions an unnamed Arabian prophet “armed with a sword” who was alive in 634 AD.
Thomas the Presbyter mentions a battle between the Byzantines & the 'Tayaye d’Mhmt', east of Gaza in 634.
If he was still alive in 634, then the dates for Abu Bakr’s and Umar’s caliphates in the Traditions are in doubt.
Ah, but what about the Umar rock inscription? On the rock it says: "In the name of God. I am Zuhar. I wrote [this] when 'Umar died, the year 24"
There are two problems with this inscription. First, it doesn't refer to Umar as 'Amir Al-Mu'minnin, let alone the Caliph. He is given no title, so he could be anyone with the name Umar.
Secondly, the date of this death fits with the Islamic traditions. It says he died in the year 24, which would make it around 644-645 AD. But, if the Byzantine-Arab Chronicle (741 AD) is correct that Umar reigned for 10 years, then there is no time for Abu Bakr to have reigned, given Muhammd is said to be still alive in 634.
So, the Chronology has insurmountable problems. We could throw out the Doctrina Jacobi and Thomas the Presbyter as evidence to Muhammad being still alive in 634… But we still have Sebeos (660s) who says that Muhammad led the invasion into Palestine. The invasion of Palestine is commonly accepted as taking place in 634-638. So the problem perists…
So, what about Ali?
Two of the earliest historical references to Ali contradict the much later Islamic version of events
The Maronite Chronicle (late 7th century) maintains that Mu'awiya has his sister's son Hudhayfa killed. ‘Ali was slain "while praying at Hira." Mu'awiya went down to Hira and received allegiance from all the Arab forces there.
So, according to this source, Ali was killed in 658, not 661, as the Traditions state.
But was Ali (Abu Turab) even a caliph?
According to George of Resh'aina (d. ca. 680), we find this account:
After Maximus went up to Rome, the Arabs seized control of the islands of the sea and entered Cyprus and Arwad, ravaging them and taking captives. They gained control over Africa and subdued almost all the islands of the sea; for, following the wicked Maximus, the wrath of God punished every place which had accepted his error. When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of Hira, at Siffin and defeated him. [Hoyland’s Note: Abu Turab is the nickname of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib,
So, 'Ali was the emir of Hira, not a caliph!
Conclusion:
• The historicity of the first 4 caliphs is seriously in doubt.
• Attempts at getting their story straight have failed.
• Abu Bakr couldn’t have been a caliph as contradictory evidence rules that out.
• Umar’s historicity rests on one rock inscription that could be about anyone of that name.
• Ali was never a caliph and he died 3 years before his reign was meant to have ended.
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics - US, 2020
(29,610) (Music: "small adventure", by Rafael Krux (from filmmusic-io - License CC BY)

[@bahaigpt]

This is cutting edge. I don't know of any other historical thinkers presenting this besides Jay Smith and company.

[@ADayWithoutYesterday]

Murad always makes great contributions that get straight to the heart of the matter. He's a demolition man.

[@kq5249]

ADayWithoutYesterday he definately is

[@drstrangelove4998]

Agreed!

[@R2026I]

Dr Jay, Sir you make all the Islam tradition sinks on a muddy river

[@WerIstWieJesus]

Finally you speaking about that. That is what I am saying for years: There is no historic proof for the existence of the four caliphes.

[@lutufyodixon9997]

Give us more...

[@lutufyodixon9997]

@@nevfelkara3004 It's very difficult.... islam doesn't have solid conclusive history

[@royprb1573]

@WerIstWieJesus really brother? tell us more about your findings. Many thanks in advance.

[@WerIstWieJesus]

@@royprb1573 Friend, happy to find anyone interested in facts. From where were these fictiv caliphs and where ruled they? In Mekka. But mekka didn't exist at that time. Archeology proves what Patricia Crone had predicted. There was not one house, not one tree and no river. Even today there is no argument against her book Hagarism she wrote at 1977. And still today Dan Gibson and Pfanderfilms can develop further those decoveries without any argument against.

[@Raj-ns3dz]

Evidences presented and logic argued made lot of sense. Seen in conjuction with the findings of Archeologist Gibson's findings, the whole story of Mecca and Prophet during 7th century looks cooked up, until and unless these findings are addressed or countered by learned and serious Islamic Scholars not half- baked persons like Zakirs, Hijabs, Dawas and several popular ones.

[@douganelees-smith4814]

Sneakers Corner ------ well done just love it

[@Speakers154]

Thank you Doug and Ane' !

[@user-jx2ei1kh4q]

I was just going to say sneakers corner is a KZbin channel lol

[@Stumbleforfree]

@@Speakers154 This video is joke.. You have murdered history in this video.. 😂😂

[@alangervasis]

Wait, isn't it speaker's corner?

[@John-ni1lt]

Exceptional work. There is nothing quite like "straightening out" Islamic history without bias. 👍

[@interqward1]

I am 'kind of glad' (because I used to like to keep this a secret for various reasons...) that you are saying this, because, as a student of Greek philosophy, I can ONLY find scholarly writings around the time of 'Muhammad,' all deeply entrenched in Aristotelian argument with some intellectual critiquing of these ideas differing from those standard positions, and all of them taking a Roman technique of portraying a 'straw man.' The whole idea of 'God is One' is a complete misunderstanding of cosmologies set down in these treatises, and which is merely a philosophical argument simply trying to explain the epistemological difference between material and dynamic material existence, and a non-material but governing separate and eternal unchanging reality. I have never believed there ever was an actual real person 'Muhammad' who lived at all - but later dominant political powers took over various contemporaneous mathematical and engineering and logics schools, all of whom had been uniquely engaged in making books and setting things down in writing -, and hijacked these for their own political purposes using the writing industry as such, for propaganda and establishing widely disseminated laws. As far as the 'God is One' thing goes, even that has been utterly misunderstand in Islam: the texts explicitly say 'uniform and harmonious,' not 'one.'

[@advenco344]

Greek philosophy was stolen from the Egyptians lel.

[@Stardust475]

I know enough Arabic, not fluent but this is nonsense. Are you going to explain the Shema in a different way than it's been understood too?

[@interqward1]

@@Stardust475 The Shema says 'Adonai,' my friend. And that is the whole point: 'Lord,' YOUR (in this case, 'their' IE the Jews' owner) OWNER, is one OWNER, and 'Israel' belongs to this god and he/she/it/they is its god. Even so, we see the word 'Eloheinu' in the phrase itself which is claimed to mean the 1st person possessive (our) ELOHIM. It doesn't say 'there is only one god,' it says we have only one Lord. Moreover in the New Testament Jesus Christ says explictly 'for there are MANY lords, and MANY gods, but for YOU, you have only ONE LORD.' 'Been understood...' well, like... ...so what? What is actually true, this is what I am interested in, not what people merely believe, or that 'is understood.' Who cares what 'is understood?' If it doesn't work, it isn't true. Can you turn water into wine? Heal the sick maybe? Walk on water? How about raise the dead? I'd be happy even if you were able to show even the slightest 'serendipity' since it's in your on-line name... People SAY all kinds of things, and they lay claim to many things all the time. You're the one that used the word 'nonsense...'

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@interqward1]

@@dfwtransport2420 Absolute total abysmal rubbish. It's pathetic that you guys want to cling onto evident nonsense that has no basis in actual factual history. Stop it.

[@x3lander]

Late to the party, I have to throw in a small objection - being in your 60s is not too old. Some of Alexander's Diadochi - Lysimachus, Seleucus, Antigonos, Ptolemy, to name a few, died in their late 70s and early 80s, and they campaigned (personally!) extensively even in those last years of their lives. Antigonos Monophthalmus for example died in the battle of Ipsus at 81. So "Muhammad" could very well have lived and campaigned in the 630s, at 60 years or older.

[@noahihtyat7226]

Jacob of Edessa listed the four Caliphs and their rule years in 691 before Abdulmalik’s domination over Arabia.

[@truthdefenders4694]

Excellent, maybe the scholars will finally start writing books with accurate history. Too many have simply parroted the Islamic revised history without verification.

[@ianmcdonald8648]

apparent;y this problem exists in western historical accounts too.

[@artvanderlay1308]

Mel and murad are the best! They're on a different level compared to the other apologists. Debunking Islam from its roots with good historical study, no need for mocking

[@mattstakeontheancients7594]

This is amazing been binge watching origins of Islam videos this entire weekend. Had no idea this was even an issue until I saw a Fred Donner presentation.

[@hamdamradio]

That was informative and helpful. Thank you guys.

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@thewordrevealsgod.7744]

I like that you guys work togheter For this job. I would like to see it again and again. And mel let murad explain his vieuw.

[@saotome6502]

I had this question on my Mind for *Days* - Thank You for Indulging my Question.

[@Speakers154]

Glad to address it, Shobin!

[@slugakristov8343]

Me too

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@RoarT19]

Quran claims all Torah and Gospel are corrupt. But it cant corrupt truth and history 🙌😘

[@104littleal6]

Quran says in 6:114-115 Allah sent down the Torah and gospel and none can change his words. That would mean, according to Quran, they are perfectly preserved. 👍😁

[@RoarT19]

@@104littleal6 That means According to Luke 2 : 11 And Quran 4 : 157 Lord Jesus is Lord Because Luke 2 : 11 The Savior, the Messiah , the lord However quran 4 ; 157 It says a stupid statement Messiah, son of Mary Was not more than a Messenger 🤔🤔 So Allah forgot that Messiah is Lord ??? Quran 4 ; 157

[@commentfreely5443]

modern imams since about 1000ad say its corrupted. quran says no one can change allah's words and allah pretends to be god of the bible. and mohammad placed torah on cushion. mohammad told jews to judge by their book, and christians by their book

[@RoarT19]

@@commentfreely5443 Another comedy also Quran tells For you is your religion For me is my religion Quran 109 : 6 🤣🤣

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@cherokeegypsy2617]

Tune in to Hatun and DCCI, Mel! I see that they are missing from your subs! Thanks for your work!

[@Speakers154]

Yes, will do.

[@nawalram1652]

'Leader of the faithful' can be general / commander of the people who are under allegiance to a king

[@villainousssb533]

Thanks Jay for having the brothers sneaker on you channel. They don’t get enough exposure. Hopefully we gets some useful critique in the comments. Peace be with you 🙏✝️☦️🙏

[@sislertx]

I had to listen to it twice..WOW.

[@Jack-rz3ef]

So did I. Don't forget the useful notes that Jay leaves in the description box. They are extremely useful.

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@gareginasatryan6761]

I wouldn’t be surprised that the chronology is off Even in the Quran, the battle of Nineveh is dated a few years earlier than it happened.

[@ekondigg6751]

On the rock inscription, it's clearly not any official inscription. With no honorific title for the Umar in question, it's also simply too crude in execution to have been done other than by an ordinary person who wanted to leave his commemoration. That fits the point made that the Umar in the inscription could be any Umar of the day.

[@Speakers154]

I noticed a lot of you commented that I passed over Uthman. You might have wondered did I forget him or did I conceal something? At the time of the presentation, I hadn't yet encountered anything in early sources that were particularly troubling, I didn't discover any early records that contradicted the Islamic account. So Uthman was spared on this occasion. :) I am sorry I didn't make clear at the time why I skipped him. On the other hand, as the early records with which Uthman was grouped had chronological problems with the 3 others, I didn't consider that strong enough evidence to affirm either that he was a caliph during that time. But considering that it appears the first Caliphate really began after Muawiya defeated his eastern opponent Ali, after a two year struggle, it appears that Uthman's caliphate is ruled out as anachronistic. The question arises if Uthman had really been a caliph over the great swathe of land that Mu'awiya was to enjoy for much of his own caliphate, then why didn't he merely just take over from where Uthman left off? Ali's opposition doesn't appear to be a mere rebellion but actually two sides who had not yet reached supremacy over the entire realm. Considering the administrative and security apparatus that was likely in place after the former ruler (Uthman?) died, it would be much more likely, in my view, that this was an expansionist battle, during a transitional phase rather than a rebellion from a province. It is my hunch that the various regions were ruled by local Arab rulers, and Muawiya in 661 decided to unify power under his leadership: to take things from a confederation into a proper unified empire with one supreme leader, himself as the Amir Al Mu'minin (commander of the faithful). I hope this sufficiently addresses that question for now. I will keep researching and if I find anything one way or the other on Uthman to settle the question, I will come back and share it.

[@morphingindisguise]

Interesting stuff, thanks for the info guys

[@pincheguey1325]

Great job guys. You guys are making history.

[@pincheguey1325]

What I meant was that these three honorable persons are making history by clearing the mud that covered it. No body before had the audacity of scraping the duty dust that covered the real historic events.

[@pincheguey1325]

Wow, My guess is that whatever I say I am wrong. Have a good day.

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. Yes they are making up history.. LOL

[@pincheguey1325]

@@dfwtransport2420 Sharia law in Jerusalem and everything was sweet... you really are funny. There is no peace word in Islam, and you know it. But if you want to keep being hypocrite and dumb, go ahead enjoy.

[@dfwtransport2420]

@@pincheguey1325 - I wonder why the Christians In Jerusalem gave the keys to their holiest Church to the Muslims as a way to bring peace between all the other Christian factions in the Holy Land. Why not give it to the Jews ? The reason is because 1,000 years of SHARIA LAW convinced the Christians that the Muslims are the most trustworthy.

[@stephenkneller6435]

Just because it says “the Tayaye of Mhmt” doesn’t necessarily mean Mhmt led them into battle. It just means Mhmt is associated (probably the leader) of the Tayaye. As such, the age of Mhmt becomes less contentious.

[@preapple]

So the Umayyad caliphs created Islam in Damascus which was later embellished by the Abbasids in Baghdad . The Rashidun Caliphate story is mostly legend and they were just local chieftains at best during the anarchy that followed at the dissolution of the Lakhmids and Ghassanids.

[@Speakers154]

That will be the subject of my channel's video later today 6pm GMT.

[@preapple]

Sneaker's Corner Thankyou. Can’t wait!

[@ravindramorey5433]

IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE OF KARBALA WAR BETWEEN YAZID AND HASAN AND WHAT TIME PERIOD. THIS IS MAJOR EVENT IN ISLAMIC HISTORY SINCE SHIA SECT REALLY CAME INTO EXISTENCE AFTER THAT EVENT.

[@lunassr7212]

The Syi'a it's not clear history in this search,because confusing if be one,

[@ravindramorey5433]

@@lunassr7212 the war of karbala is important because as per islamic narrative the two main islamic faction shia and sunni emerged after this war.it is a turning point in islamic history.

[@lunassr7212]

Ravindra Morey Syi'a they call Katolik Islam adn Sunni is Protestan in Christian,it's big question ? Karbala it can be big War,problem is Why must kill Ali Bin Abi Talib ,Siti Zahra Fatima,Hasan,Husen AS. All data sayyed all dead,but any versus Hadeeths to,the Hasan and Husen is help by 2 woman and bring they croos the river and make Hasan Husen save.it's contradiction in Syi'a

[@OdonLafontaine]

Umar's inscription has also been thoroughly and completely ruled out by Robert Kerr ("Forging Ahead into the Islamic Past - Einige Bemerkungen zur Inschrift von Zuhayr", in Inarah Band 8., _Die Entstehung einer Weltreligion V_ , 2020, Hans Schiler & Tim Mücke GbR, Berlin)

[@Speakers154]

Good reference. This year too!

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@Speakers154 Heard him at the 2018 Inarah Symposium in Germany

[@divyachacko3449]

Lovely info Dr Jay Smith and Mel

[@erics7992]

The Latin chronicle of 754 written in Ummayad Spain which Mel has used elsewhere and gives a different account of the origin and career of Muhammad than the traditional Islamic narrative does mention each of the first four caliphs (although it never uses that word) by name calling them Abubacar, Amer, and Othomam with the exception of Ali. And there it says that Muawiya fought a five year civil war before concluding the last twenty years of his reign in peace which is exactly what the traditional narrative describes i.e. that Ali ruled for five years and that Muawiya never accepted his legitimacy.

[@TheBornfree83]

what stuck me the most is the caliph abdul malik is the one who intro the shahadah on the dome on the rock and the coins, then if there is a need to create an arab prophet, using the closest material would be his own father?

[@jarrygarry5316]

Yeah maybe from inspiration of his father as prophetic figure.The coincidence was too high.

[@leedza]

Thats really fascinating work. With regards to establishment of power, civil wars tend to be precursor to a dominant force especially following a power vacuum. Especially considering the other super powers had lost control of the region a new order had to be established.

[@grasonicus]

What's the introductory music? It's great.

[@c.w_]

Hi. Thanks for your hard work. Is this using all of the evidence of this period available?

[@Speakers154]

"Seeing Islam As Others See it" has a collection of all of the available early sources. I have given preference to the earliest sources possible. The chronology only gets more confused and contradictory the later they are.

[@peacock69mcp]

This is huge! Loved it. Also I would suggest, it can be just a fictitious character invention of Abd alMalik and a few others to fabricate a whole religion as copied from Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity.

[@drstrangelove4998]

Top team, absolutely fascinating guys...✌🏻

[@petervdbnz2]

Jay, Have you ever had contact with Jonathan AC Brown on the topic of Islamic History? I have a friend who has been ensnared by Islam and is enamoured by Brown's arguments. They are certainly eloquent and educated. I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask about this.

[@Speakers154]

I just want to point out that nowhere in the video, do I specifically argue that the first 4 caliphs didn't exist. The title of the video asks that question and that is one possible conclusion but I was making a much more modest assertion, that the Islamic narrative is wrong on a few points in the timeline, ie I was pointing out the chronological problems in the timeline that are not easily resolved. Using the word caliph for them may also be anachronistic, amir/emir might be more correct. One failing in the presentation was that there were literary sources for Umar, which I found after making the video, which would have upgraded his historicity.

[@Josdamale]

It's clear that the period of the conquests by the Arabs was followed by chaos as there were different factions and generals vying for power. The word caliph means a successor rather than a king, which implies that Muhammed was a warlord of a horde rather than a king of a kingdom with a civilization, and that it took 30 years for the conquests and the civil wars for a clear successor to Muhammed to be established. It seems also that the details of Muhammed's life were sketchy and that it was embellished. Islam as a religion is developing out of the chaos of the horde.

[@ianmcdonald8648]

eatch the video on 'Muhammad' - did he really exist?

[@AustinOKeeffe]

What about Uthman? There was no mention of any historical records of him. If the self proclaimed prophet mentioned dying in Palestine was not the man eventually based on a charatacter, then the 4 men mentioned still might have been leaders if not Caliphs for there alleged timelines.

[@devasinkh7251]

Nice discussion.

[@gladysodiawa9307]

Interesting. Dr jay Thank you sir, for dissection of Islamic religion piece by piece.

[@sanghakado]

Keep up with the good work and the truth needs to be told.

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@sanghakado]

@@dfwtransport2420 Stop lying we now know the truth my friend. The first Mohamadsns to arrive in Jerusalem was given hospitality because they came in as travelers not Muslims. Check your facts before lying.

[@CORONA-lk4ct]

Hi jay, you're an authority on the history, I've learned a lot n still am learning from you, thank you for sharing your hard work n research with the seeker, love you bro from Pakistan ♥️👍♥️

[@huckstirred7112]

there is a inscribed rock in the creek in St. Paul Mo. saying " I wrote this when Jim Morrison died , he was certainly a god . Just think 2000 years from now someone like jay will study that rock .🤔😎🤣 No offence Jay , love your work

[@Chandransingham]

Thanks. This looks like cutting edge research. Keep it up. God bless.

[@husseinmorobeid]

Interesting Fact: Shia Muslims - Those who follow Ali - say that Ali was also called Abu Turab; which confirms some of what Mel was saying in this video

[@mikejohnson5059]

Where are "there" palaces? Ruling archives? Decrees? Locations on Google maps?

[@ryanspencer2844]

Wonderful stuff from the Sneaker's Corner crew. I loved the ice breaker exercise with Abdul Malik's fathers lineage and the problematization of Arab scholars who were so bent on confirming what they already new, that they can't accept that diacriticals have not always been part of the Arab language. The idea that the 'rightly guided caliphs' were also amalgamated characters as opposed to actual historical persons also throws a tremendous amount of shade at the Shia, who, it would seem, have based their sect off of yet another person who may not have existed. Great stuff all around! I am so glad Mel, Murad, and Jay got a chance to sit down. Now if only we could get Islam Critiques on with all of you guys, that would be amazing!

[@Stardust475]

Are there any texts that refer to the Jewish tribes named in Sira living in Medina? Has anyone enquired into this area? If we could find any references to these Jewish tribes we could identify Medina or maybe fictitious too.

[@kaneinkansas]

Why would the traditional accounts create the problem with the Jewish tribes in Medina, including the genocide that occurred with the last Jewish tribe, if it did not happen? As I’ve said else where, this thesis seems to create more holes than it fills.

[@Sp0tthed0gt]

One word of caution. De Vallette led the defence of Malta, including engagement in hand to hand fighting, at the age of seventy. Blucher at Waterloo was no spring chicken. It is quite possible for a man of sixty to lead an army.

[@Bill-lg8ke]

I want to ask about the Birmingham Qur'an manuscript , is that made from paper ? How about Sana'a and Tubingen manuscript ?

[@Speakers154]

Paper wasn't introduced back then, it was parchment so animal skin.

[@ALPHAGALACTICOMEGA]

Very fascinating material! Is there any evidence for Khalid ibn al Walid? Some sources claim him to be one of the most successful field marshals in all of history. What are the contemporary non islamic sources regarding this fellow?

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome....

[@Zeuwamakanuwadiegwu]

What you have does cast serious doubt on the traditional narrative. However this does not necessarily mean that those 4 “Caliphs” didn’t exist. It might just be the case that they were rivals with competing claims/ambitions to rule over or unite the “arab” people. And some or all of them might have claimed the title “Mohammed” as well. What you have not yet explained though is the evolution of their theology during this period. Might there also have been a teacher/priest/guru type figure that existed in this period upon whom the mystical/theological aspects were based?

[@ravindramorey5433]

what they are actually saying is that there is no corrabarative third party evidence of mohammed and first four caliphs as per islamic narrative which itself is written 200yrs after fact.but still the religion of islam is a reality.infact it should be now the duty of muslims to investigate the emergence of islam.same has been done for christianity and jesus.even today they are trying to figure the archeological findings and doing it academically without any jew or christian making any issue about it.muslims should do the same,shut the critics with evidence.

[@Thor-Orion]

I had a Jewish friend growing up whose last name was Abdulmalik

[@ImranFazalIIlahiphoenix]

Praise God for this insight

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@tarnos4153]

One reason our cousins would not believe this narrative is it makes them liars.

[@josephololade]

Please and please can I get that intro music? It's just too beautiful ❤️❤️

[@fobbyjose7161]

4:40 Isn't Khadijah the first and only wife until she died?

[@mannyfabin1850]

Brilliant presentation by Mel and Murad...... devastatingly good... wow.

[@michielhoek1996]

Might it be that since the docrtina Jacobi and Thomas the Presbyter talk of a prophet in 634 that the early forms of islam never thought that there would be a final prophet and thus were thinking that Abu Bakr was also a prophet? Might the early forms of islam thought that every leader was a prophet?

[@Speakers154]

That is an excellent idea! Yes, I would say the early evidence is that "Muhammad" didn't even see himself as the last prophet.

[@saulien3675]

Mohammed in Syriac means(as a common name) "the praised one" would direct to Jesus

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@saulien3675]

@@dfwtransport2420 Hello sir or Madam. The only truth in your comment is, the second to last sentence. There is nowhere in history that the rightful caliphs are historic figures. Give us proof outside the Islam narrators from any century, and for Mohamed esame, please. You are welcome!

[@Lilia.....]

I think it's possible to find two and even more men of 7th century having a mother's name of Aminah and wifes of Zeynab and Aisha, they are very common names among Arab women. Even now every second Muslim woman's name is Aisha all over the world, as well as Aminah and Zeynab

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@Lilia.....]

@@dfwtransport2420 it was Umar who first ordered to Jews and Christians to wear special signs on their clothes to be identified as Jews and Christians which were a yellow star and special belt. Not Hitler first. Umar was first. He also made some orders of humiliation and discrimination Jews and Christians

[@edlepkowicz4478]

I wish I had this info when I debated Muslims 20 years ago

[@first9_yt]

What are you going to do about the "Doctrina Jacobi" 634 "Thoams Presbyter" 640 "Fragment on the Arab Conquests" 636 "Sebeos" 660 Etc Who all mentioned Prophet Muhammad PBUH? You are being duped mate😑🤦🏻‍♂️

[@mikkelhansen9419]

What historic records do you find for other important people in Mecca from that time ? Hamza, Khadija, Sufyan, Hind, Sufyan's sister Umm Jamil etc.

[@commentfreely5443]

there was no mecca in any trade routes

[@MarkProffitt]

@@commentfreely5443 Chosing a place with little or no outside involvement would be ideal for fabricating a story. No witnesses to contradict the lie especially a potential claim to a throne.

[@alkhan6704]

I’m on this level of thinking ,I’m a believer as stated in the true Quran not the Abbasid Quran,did anyone existed prior to the 7th and 8th century in Islam ,did Ibn Abbass exist did Bukhari exist or did any of the Hadith writers exist?

[@kaneinkansas]

What about the reference of St. John of Damascus? John was a scholar who was son of a scholar who worked for Mauwiyah, the founder of the Umayyad dynasty AND a contemporary of Mohammed, whose father was Mohammed’’s opponent for 18 years, and fought 3 battles against Mohammed. Also, something had to cause Arab cohesion.

[@LordEsel88]

There were many wars between Arab warlords. It was simply the strongest warlord with the best propaganda that united the Arabs. Their history was then sanitized and religious texts were processed to justify obedience to the ruler. The so-called caliphs were effectively priest-kings at that point.

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@kaneinkansas]

@@dfwtransport2420 Yeah but it cost us the World Trade Center, to say nothing about Anatolia, Syria, the City of Constantinople and the Hagia Sofia cathedral, not to mention millions of Europeans and Black Africans who were enslaved by Muslim raiders through the centuries to be taken from their homes and sold in their save markets. Thanks for that too. Most of the Muslims I know are far, far, far better people than the prophet they follow or the system he laid down. Hundreds of Americans were enslaved and held hostage by Barbary Pirates, when John Quincy Adam asked the ambassadors from the Barbary states how they could justify their acts of piracy they said they were commanded by their prophet to do this. The slaves in the Western Hemisphere were initially provided for by Muslim slave trade in West Africa. You, know, I think one sect dominating the Holy Sepulchre would be a small price to pay to reverse all of the above. Islam is the problem child or the worlds religions. I look forward to the day that Muslims realize this and just turn their backs and walk away - kind of like the East Europeans did from Soviet Communism.

[@greenzone7371]

What of utman?

[@mulberry8930]

Put it all together & present it as 1

[@arunraja3084]

plz edit ali time range in the later part of the video

[@m.w.wollacott8179]

This is good stuff, but Mel did forget Uthman. Could you do a quick video on him?

[@Speakers154]

Uthman was not forgotten. It just reflects that I could neither confirm nor deny his existence. However, as I mentioned the sequence or flow of development would suggest that a caliphate handn't yet been established by his time. If I find evidence one way or other, I will return to the question.

[@m.w.wollacott8179]

@@Speakers154 Thank you for taking the time to reply. I'd be interested to know where these names came from if they were just made up - were they relatives of Marwan like Zaynab etc.. or maybe we'll never know. Anyway, thank you again for getting back to me on that one.

[@Speakers154]

@@m.w.wollacott8179 There are any number of possibilities. As I said to Jay, I am not taking an absolute position at this moment in time. All I am saying is there are contradictions in their chronologies and Ali was not a caliph. For all we know, these might have been very localised rulers who were later elevated to caliph status in the 8th or 9th century. They might even have ruled simultaneously, for example, Abu Bakr and Umar. So I have tried to restrict myself to the extent of the record that it is there. Perhaps new information may come to light that might clarify things more. But considering how Muhammad's bio was generated, it is also a possibility that they could have likewise been generated from more immediate people, such as they did with Marwan.

[@m.w.wollacott8179]

@@Speakers154 I'd definitely agree with you. We can only base our understanding on what evidence there is and anything else is speculation. We'll see what the future brings - if anything. Keep up the good work.

[@franciscodanconia3551]

Is Uthman getting his own video?

[@dane2200]

The guy with the arab accent sounds like dr. Rohi from al Azhar University in Cairo

[@metehandemirkan3577]

Jay ı would like you to talk little closer to microphone in your videos,please.

[@soosainathan1753]

The article never state the name of the father! Why why why

[@hughuglover6410]

How did Uthman disappear from the line of the 4 "rightly guided caliphs"? - I somehow get the idea that Utham maybe was the "nick name" of this Muawaia that was the real "caliph - in the comming" during theese years?

[@aamersuhail123]

Jay is requested to go deep as Muslims Story abt Califs may be all Fabrication of later Rulers ( persians ) , as all the Stories are written or Edited in Their Reign.

[@mattdeany1]

To be sceptical of the scepticism - Firstly, if I were a Muslim, I would want to affirm the names mentioned in the early non-Muslim texts, and look for reasons to explain the dates being adrift by three or four years. How confident are we in the reliability of non-Muslim chronicles, and are there known mechanisms for the dates being adrift? I am thinking of Jesus Christ being born in 4BC, due to errors in the initial calendar calculation, as a possible similar example. Secondly, I am still not sure of the significance of Koranic fragments from the 7th Century. Is it possible to build from those fragments to shore up the Koran, as can be done in similar way for the New Testament? Secondly, is it possible to then build up from a 'reinforced' 7th Century Koran to other traditional Muslim documents, and so reinforce the traditional chronology that way? The renewed confidence in the New Testament as containing real history, amongst all but the most extreme sceptical and un-believing scholars, has over turned much previous liberal scholarship. Could a similar process be possible here?

[@Andersljungberg]

was not Umar involved in the conquest of Persia? and did he not write a letter to the Persian king?

[@JohnDelVentomusic]

I am here in the comments looking for ONE muslim response.....

[@Speakers154]

It will be like looking for the holy grail, John! haha :)

[@TKG578]

There is a gramatical error in the number 20, it should be (عشرون), but it is writen (عشرين).

[@user-yz1dl3eu8l]

About Ali : "When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of al Hira, at Siffin and defeated him." R.G. Hoyland, Seeing Islam ...p.141.

[@Peter-xf9jy]

the question for me is what is/was the purpose of that (or such an) inscription? and why didnt he at least add which Umar he ment?

[@Peter-xf9jy]

I (that) Umar was a Calif, wouldnt he have added that at least?

[@Peter-xf9jy]

O did Islam make up Calif Umar based on this inscription and dating? (whenever is was act. written)

[@Peter-xf9jy]

Resh'aina is syriac for the city called Ra2s al-3ain today.

[@markeden767]

Interesting

[@mhorram]

Jay, I have to say, in jest of course, that you should change the Pfander Films logo, from its current stylized Pf to a non-stylized matryoshka doll. If you are unfamiliar with that term; it is the Russian doll that when you open it presents you with another doll inside and that doll can be opened to reveal another doll etc. That is the amazing thing that has happened over the last two years beginning I would say with your original series with Hatun Tash that was a jaw dropper (for kufar and muslims alike). Inside that 'doll' we find you and Al Fadi giving us further revelations on the authenticity of of the Qur'an. Then we open that 'doll' and there's a Jay Smith Robert Spencer hiding inside it who discuss the non-existence of Muhammad (Buddhists would agree with that but it probably doesn't count because for them nothing exits). We no sooner open that 'doll' than we find Sneaker's Corner and Murad showing us the Caliphs didn't exit (well, not the 'Rightly Invented' ones anyway). Just how far can you go with this matroyoskity? Please don't let this go so far as to prove that I don't exist. I enjoy watching your videos and commenting on them too much.

[@StephenCowley001]

This may be a silly question, but doesn't the Kaaba with the black stone in it date from the 7th century? Isn't that physical evidence of Mecca existing and being as described in the Muslim sources? Or when and how else do you think the tradition of visiting and circling it started? Isn't the circling a pre-Islamic tradition, suggesting that it goes back to pre-Muslim times when people worshipped the stars?

[@truthislam6481]

Stephen, you will have to view Mels' earlier videos along with Jays' to see that the original Kaaba was in Petra. The short answer is that the present-day Kaaba is a much later construction. Dan Gibson's new website has vast quantities of fascinating work also. kzbin.info/www/bejne/opWrqX6bp9qheck

[@Josdamale]

The religion of the first Arab leaders especially those in Syria appears to be very close to those of the Paulicians, so-called by the Orthodox Christians. They of course called themselves true Christians, and the Orthodox they called Romanists. The Paulicians were essentially gnostics and dualists sharing similar ideas as other gnostics such as the first century Docetists. They rejected all sacramental and ecclesiastical aspects of the Church, and believed that the man Jesus was not also God. One must see the development of Islam as happening more in Syria than in Arabia.

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@Josdamale]

@@dfwtransport2420 Coins minted by Arab rulers in the 7th century show crosses and images, hardly sharia law. Christianity has been persecuted out of existence throughout the Middle East. Have you no shame?

[@frensjose315]

What about the early mosques in different parts of the world?

[@momentx282]

I truly believe the prophet died during 632 and the caliphs conquered in his name thats why the scriptures described them to be prophets

[@Stardust475]

Why did Mel disregard the Byzantine reference to Umar's rule?

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@prebens.e.nielsen7545]

Give Mel a decent computer or let him use other than microsoft. powerpoint its so slow that we near fell asleep before it reach the screen.

[@baddbeliever]

from a classical narrative accepted by most, muawiya ends up in Syria because his father Abu sufyan is assigned to be stationed there by Omar. as it goes, he had a Christian advisor and historian and apparently looking at the coins...he was starting up a Christianized post messianic faith up there in Damascus. he also likely tried to make either Petra or the temple mount the qibla as an opposition to Alis mecca. they fought battles about it and came to a head with yazid and Hussain. then begins an Abbasid cover up...an embarrassing defeat for the umayyad heresy...but that's a secret between me and the 10000 of you.

[@aamersuhail123]

Guessing, supposition ,hit n trail May be , possibility , looks true, Hoon hoon haan haan........

[@nowdevoted1649]

Green man is back

[@mulajina1091]

Sir , there is a good Arab apologetics I hope to ask mr. murad to contact them one of them called brother Rashid from Moroco he speaks English and French and Arabic , the other one name is Wahid he’s academically qualified and I’m not sure if he speakes other than Arabic الاخ رشيد برنامج بكل وضوح / الاخ وحيد برنامج الدليل

[@dfwtransport2420]

In 638, Umar (the 2nd Caliph) traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive control of the city. The Muslim Caliphs and other leaders ruled Jerusalem by SHARIA for nearly 1,000 years. The Christians were so impressed with the Peace and Justice that was established that they enstrusted the keys of the Holy Sepulchre to a Muslim family. This was to bring Peace and Justice between all the different Christian factions of the Holy Land. To this day, the Muslims open and close the doors of Christianity's holiest Church, the Holy Sepulchre. You are welcome.

[@tiagorodrigues3730]

@@dfwtransport2420 If you mean the Joudeh al-Goudiah, they were unilaterally granted the keys in the 1180s by Saladin, so even if the Christians were impressed by their justice, it wouldn't have mattered. In any case, it is much much too late to prove anything about how things were arrayed in the 7th or 8th Century.

[@1oomkje]

I have a question. Can someone clarify Mohammed’s last sermon? Khutbatul Wada right? Where does it come from? I’ve seen it posted online and some Hadiths have been referenced as sources, but when I look them up, I’m just confused. Maybe I’m looking at the wrong Hadiths? These are the references given: Reference: See Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361) Sahih of Imam Muslim also refers to this sermon in Hadith number 98. Imam al-Tirmidhi has mentioned this sermon in Hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085. Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has given us the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Masnud, Hadith no. 19774 Bukhari 1623 Narrated `Amr: We asked Ibn `Umar: "May a man have sexual relations with his wife during the Umra before performing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) arrived (in Mecca) and circumambulated the Ka`ba seven times, then offered two rak`at behind Maqam Ibrahim (the station of Abraham), then performed Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." Ibn `Umar added, "Verily! In Allah's Apostle you have a good example." And I asked Jabir bin `Abdullah (the same question), and he replied, "You should not go near your wives (have sexual relations) till you have finished Tawaf between Safa and Marwa. " Bukhari 1626 Narrated Um Salama: (the wife of the Prophet) I informed Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (about my illness). (Through other sub-narrators, Um Salama narrated that when Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was at Mecca and had just decided to leave (Mecca) while she had not yet done Tawaf of the Ka`ba (and after listening to her). The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "When the morning prayer is established, perform the Tawaf on your camel while the people are in prayer." So she did the same and did not offer the two rak`at of Tawaf until she came out of the Mosque. Bukhari 6361 Narrated Abu Huraira: that he heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "O Allah! If I should ever abuse a believer, please let that be a means of bringing him near to You on the Day of Resurrection." Muslim 98 It is narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. Umar who narrates from the Prophet of Allah (ﷺ) who said: He who took up arms against us is not of us. Tirmidhi 1628: Narrated Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani: That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "Whoever prepares a fighter in Allah's cause, he has participated in a military expedition, and whoever looks after the family of a fighter, he has participated in a military expedition." [Abu 'Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih, and it has been reported through more than one route. Tirmidhi 2046: Simak narrated that he heard 'Alqamah bin Wa'il narrate from his father, that he witnessed the Prophet (s.a.w) being asked by Suwaid bin Tariq -or Tariq bin Suwaid- about Khamr, and he forbade it. So he said: "We use it as a treatment." So the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W) said: "It is certainly not a treatment, rather, it is a disease." Tirmidhi 2085: Abu Hazim said: "While I was listening, Sahl bin Sa'd was asked: 'What were the wounds of the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W) treated with?' He said: 'None is alive who is more knowledgeable of it than I. 'Ali would come with water in his shield, and Fatimah would use it to wash his blood off,and a mat was burnt for him and his wounds were filled with it(its ashes)." I don’t know where to find Masnud, Hadith no. 19774. Is there a early writing where the last sermon is written down that I’m missing? Where does it come from?

[@Muhammad-pz1bp]

Farewell speech: Al-Bukhari narrated on the authority of Jabir bin Abdullah, may God be pleased with them, that the Messenger of God, peace and blessings of God be upon him, on the farewell pilgrimage came to Arafat and found the dome had been struck , and he came down with it even if the sun came to pass, he commanded the severity, and he left for him. And your money is forbidden for you, as the sanctity of your day, in this month of yours, in your country, is that everything from the matter of ignorance is subject to my feet, and the blood of ignorance is placed... Ps : i hope google translation is correct , because i find it in arabic source , im muslim .

[@leedza]

@4:50 it gets worse, guess who else has a sister called Fatima. Umar and Mo. Unless these are just common names its seem a bit coincidental

[@asifbrettishmaelmakki9]

Jay Smith.The is an interesting writeup in a book called 'the travels of Sir John Mandeville' about a historical mohammed. There are some inaccuracies eg the assurtion that Jesus Christ was not crucified! But do not let that put you off from looking into it!. Thanks.