What is good fantasy prose?: a look at Ursula Le Guin’s “From Elfland to Poughkeepsie”

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

To me, fantasy writers who deliver immersive realms by successfully walking the tightrope between a prose style that is too archaic and stylized on the one hand and a prose style that is too colloquial and mundane on the other hand include, in addition to Le Guin’s example of Tolkien, Robin Hobb, Steven Erikson, Ian Esslemont, George R.R. Martin, and Le Guin herself. What are your favorite examples?

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I think for me Hobb and Tad Williams are among the best. At his top Bakker can be in the conversation, but he struggles some with consistency. I also absolutely love GRRMs prose and am not sure why it gets so heavily critiqued. Probably due to the popularity.

[@derrisreaditbefore]

Obviously for me, I agree on Hobb. Hands down, class act, so too GRRM. Sir Terry Pratchett scoffed at your authorial tightrope however, and built himself wings to go where ever he wanted.

[@Chaintis]

@@thefantasynuttwork I agree with you that Hobb and Tad Williams are among the best. Another great writer in terms of prose, though highly stylized, is Mervyn Peake with his Gormenghast trilogy. I also feel that as a prose stylist, Steven Erikson is sometimes underrated. Everyone discusses the complexity and world-building of the Malazan series, however, I just feel sometimes that Erikson's prose is overlooked. Erikson's prose style really improves in the later books of the Malazan series.

[@TheEternalElir]

I think Guy Gavriel Kay is in a class of his own, ahead of everyone in the game.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@thefantasynuttwork There are aspects of Martin’s writing that I would critique, such as a tendency toward voyeurism at times, but I think his prose is excellent. He manages a distinct prose style that is slightly and subtly archaic enough to immerse me in his incredibly rich world. I can’t wait to read Bakker’s books!

[@ACriticalDragon]

Excellent discussion of LeGuin's essay. I am glad that I am not the only one interested in prose and style when it comes to Fantasy. I am looking forward to the comments and discussion about this.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, my friend! I’m sure we could have an interesting chat on Le Guin’s essay the next time we get together for a video. I would love to hear your thoughts!

[@VicRibeiro777]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yes please!!! I love the vids where you guys collaborate!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@VicRibeiro777 And so it shall be!

[@TheGeekyHippie]

Between the two of you, your videos (and the comments sections stemming from them) make me feel like I'm taking a uni course on writing and literature. Forget "Great Courses Plus," I got you nerds!

[@gabechouinard]

I've enjoyed your joint videos quite a lot, especially when you delve into narrative. Not to mention Steve is my personal nemesis.... I'll never forget talking to him at WFC after he'd bought the Wandering Star Conan!

[@IskarJarak]

Le Guin is a master and her prose are one of the major reasons. I just started a reread of wizard of earthsea with my kids and they are loving it!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

That’s fantastic, Iskar! You are giving your kids the right nourishment for their imaginations. Iskar = awesome dad!

[@Johanna_reads]

Philip, I was just last night wondering how I can fit this essay into my end of year reading plans! You are one of the people I have to thank for shifting my whole mindset on prose. Several of your videos have made me rethink the way prose can impact how we experience a story. You’ve also recommended this essay several times, and I loved your additional thoughts on the tightrope shifting through time and within various fantasy sub-genres, like urban fantasy. I also loved what Le Guin said about style and story being unified. This point is particularly fascinating because the experience of reading isn’t just about what happened. It is also about the immersive ways in which we experience those events. Otherwise, what would be the difference between someone telling you what happened (there can be an art to that as well) and reading the book? Thank you for this video!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Johanna! I’m glad you enjoyed the video, and I still recommend checking out Le Guin’s essay since I left out some things. It’s actually not a very long essay, and I think you’d need about half an hour or less to read it. She was truly an icon of speculative fiction with important ideas.

[@francoisbouchart4050]

So, what I really got out of this video is that Philip doesn’t like talking to his neighbour. 😂🤣😂. Another great video Philip! IMHO, the prose an author uses is critical to my enjoyment of a book. AP has also taught me that prose is a deliberate choice of the author based on intent; so maybe I need to be less judgmental 😏.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Ha ha! My poor neighbors! 🤣 I agree that prose should be a deliberate choice on the author’s part, but I think that the choice broadens with experience and honing of the craft. In other words, a beginner author doesn’t have an array of stylistic choices to consciously pursue. Such an author might not even think about style. It’s something that comes with practice and experimentation as the author finds their voice. Cheers, Francois!

[@sethulakovic3722]

Hi Philip. These are some me of my favorite authors where their prose really blows me away. China Mieville, Clive Barker, Guy Gaverial Kay, and Neil Gaiman. I also really enjoy NK Jemisin, but I may be just too impressed with her bold pov choices.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Gaiman and Kay are among my favorites in terms of prose too. I’m excited to read Mieville someday. Jemisin is brilliant and a top author for me overall, but her prose style is just a bit too colloquial for my taste. It’s not my favorite aspect of her writing. However, her incorporation of theme is among the very best, and she is without parallel in terms of showing how relevant fantasy can be.

[@vaughnroycroft999]

Kudos, Philip--it's an important topic. Whether the community thinks it's interesting or not, it's discussed in a sort of veiled way all of the time, even here on BookTube. I often hear people speak of the work's accessibility or when it's too formal or feels like a slog, and I'm certain the prose style is often at the center of these issues. Your point about Edison's prose style not ever actually existing reminds me of the old Mid-Atlantic accent that radio announcers affected in the 1920s and 30s. No one actually spoke like that. It represented no real region of the US or even of the UK. It just sounded vaguely upper-class, which I suppose they thought lent it a level of authority or legitimacy. Which, in a way, is I think what many fantasists are seeking with a high level of archaism in their prose. I know I once did. This very topic has so much to do with finding my own voice as a writer. When I began, I went whole-hog on a sort of vaguely Elizabethan archaism. My earliest beta-readers (bless them for slogging through) found the formality kept them at arm's length, especially when it came to emotional relatability. In subsequent drafts I allowed my style prose pendulum to swing to the other extreme. I wasn't satisfied with that and have since sought my own version of that tightrope you so aptly describe. I think a big part of it is slang (as someone else in the comments has identified), and the appropriate use of metaphor, particularly in dialog. I've sought to diligently invent metaphor that not only applies in a historically accurate way (i.e. no gun metaphors or or sports or card game metaphors--side-note: damn, is modern American English full of those!), but also appropriate to the various cultures of my characters (lots of horse metaphors for one tribe, archery for another, and so on). I've been at it for fifteen years, and I'm astounded by how much tinkering and fine-tooth editing this has required. I still tinker with my use of contractions, for example (even as I do the final preparation for publication). I think being jarred out of the story (as you mention and as I too experience) sometimes has to do with a lack of attention to detail. But more often it's just younger writers seeking accessibility in a way that just doesn't jibe with me as a matter of taste. I often marvel at writers like Abercrombie and Hobb for finding their own tightrope, and the consistency that keeps me immersed, large book after large book. It's something to aspire to! Thought-provoking stuff! Thanks for broaching an important topic, and for pointing me to the LeGuin essay. I'd read the Tolkien Faery essay, and I so admire LeGuin. I'm looking forward to experiencing where your voice as a writer lands regarding this issue.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Vaughn! It’s wonderful to hear a little about your journey as a writer, and I strongly identify with your efforts to find both the stylistic balance a fantasy writer must negotiate and an authorial voice. Like you, I’ve been at it for a long time - about eighteen years of chipping away in terms of creative writing. With the exception of parenting, I can think of nothing else in my life as challenging and rewarding. My very best wishes to you, and I hope to read your books someday!

[@Altruismisreal27]

Very useful and interesting tips for the writers of epic fantasy!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks so much! I’m happy you found the video helpful!

[@SheWasOnlyEvie]

For me, the prose is more than just writing style: it's writing style matched with tone of a novel. Though, admittedly, my interpretation of "prose" is probably more than the definition of the word itself. Tangentially, I am curious about your thoughts on narrative structure and its execution, since it's apparently my favorite thing when it's experimented with.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I love looking at narrative structure, and many of my favorite authors, like Steven Erikson, N.K. Jemisin, and Mark Lawrence, are experimenters when it comes to narrative structure. When done well, such experimentation adds a lot to the experience of a book. Along with prose, it can be a huge part of how we process the story. Lovely to hear from you, Evie!

[@giannimanzano9266]

As always, informative and entertaining. I will be reading this essay now, especially since I will be reading her Chronicles of Earthsea in 2022. Thank you.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Awesome, Gianni! Le Guin’s essay is, in my humble opinion, a must read for lovers of the fantasy genre. I hope you’ll enjoy your time in Earthsea!

[@zuberas]

I have to read LeGuin's essay ASAP, it seems fantastic. I have always considered the style of the prose crucial to my enjoyment of a novel, but at the same time, I'm not comfortable with the idea that there is a specific type of prose that is better suited for a specific genre: for me, the prose serves the story, so tying it to the genre limits the range in tone of the stories of that genre, making it less rich. But excellent video, provided great food for thought!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Rodrigo! I found a pdf of Le Guin’s essay by Googling it. It’s a short but important read, I think.

[@ACriticalDragon]

If you think of detective noir as an example, or a Victorian detective story, you would expect that a gumshoe noir would have a very different prose style to the Victorian detective in general. There would be a different grammatical construction, different lexical selections, different emphasis on what is observed and what is assumed. All that plays into a prose style. Authors can play not only with our expectation of prose style, but of what the genre/subgenre seems to desire versus what the modern reader may enjoy. So I think that this is part of that tightrope that Philip was talking about.

[@alexbento7047]

What great discussion of this paper. I appreciate the academic and analytical perspectives you bring to fantasy literature. I feel like for a long time many people looked at fantasy as an escapist genre devoid of literary value. Seeing people like yourself, AP, and many others on booktube discuss the beauty and value of fantasy really refutes that notion. Hope to see more videos like this in the future

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Alex! That is indeed one of the "missions" of my channel -- to explore fantasy critically and thus show that much of it is worthy of such exploration. BookTube is a great place to do this, I'm finding!

[@esmayrosalyne]

I love this video, you never fail to deliver super interesting and thought-provoking content! My preferences have actually changed quite a lot over time, because I used to prefer more 'colloquial' and straight-forward prose, but now I actually crave more beautiful/lyrical styles of writing in my fantasy. I think that my gradual shift from reading mostly YA fantasy to now reading almost exclusively adult fantasy also contributed to that change in preference. Something that I think is also a factor to take into account is my mood, because when I am tired or busy, I often find myself gravitating towards works that require less concentration to read. I mean, LOTR is wonderful, but I just can't easily breeze through it haha. All that said, I think both types of writing are fine and there is an audience for both. The more modern fantasy works can feel less daunting because of their relatively 'simple' and approachable writing, which could potentially bring more new readers to the genre and that is always wonderful! Thank you for this video Philip, I really enjoyed it! :)

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Excellent points, Esmay! Just as a fantasy writer matures in terms of writing craft with practice, so too do fantasy readers mature and come to appreciate more sophisticated prose. YA fantasy plays a crucial role in gently inviting readers into the genre, among other things, and so its prose is naturally more accessible. And sometimes we older readers do want to relax with a simple read. Cheers!

[@TheGeekyHippie]

(TheGeekyHippie here): Another excellent video Dr Chase, thank you! This is a topic I've thought about a lot over the years, from the way you address it (although I have yet to read LeGuin's essay that she wrote the year I was born), as well as from a purely lexicon level: certain words and phrases just don't belong in a Fantasy setting, being incredibly anachronistic in the vast majority of Fatnasy settings. Off hand I can't think of specific examples that I've actually seen that bugged me, but for an obvious example, you wouldn't expect to hear a character say something was "electrifying" unless the level of tech had begun harnessing or at least researching into electricity, and it had become somewhat common knowledge. Speaking of prose, I've learned that I have what one friend referred to as a "Baroque writing style" which I haven't really decided if that is good or bad (leaning towards the latter). I kinda get what she was saying, since I do think I have a style of writing (both in my fiction and non-fiction) that is something like a blend of a little bit of Tolkien and a whole lot of Neal Stephenson (though Stephenson didn't *_actually_* influence my writing style, I was already writing like this before I discovered him). Yes, my fiction often has sentences just as long as the sentences in my comments do; I seriously will need an editor when I finish something LOL. I just really love punctuation; semicolons, commas (and parenthesis). They are my friends 🥰.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

A “Baroque writing style” sounds awesome to me, Glenn, but I’m a fan of Baroque music as well as a medievalist, so I might not be the best person to ask. 😁 As for punctuation, if more people understood that commas and semicolons are their friends, the world would be a better and happier place. But, then again, I’m an English professor, so I might not be the best person to ask. 🤣

[@TheGeekyHippie]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy We're very much of similar minds. You went down a path I considered at one point, so I get ya on that.

[@BookBlather]

This was a fascinating video, Phillip, thank you. This is something to which I never really gave much thought. I know it’s not always the goal to replicate an actual dialect from an actual time period, but to the extent an author is trying to emulate one, it seems that inaccessibility is always going to change proportionally to authenticity as you go back in time. So I think you must be right-the tightrope would necessarily move over time. Although it seems like this movement would be slow, more like on the scale of centuries than decades, no? I am definitely going to have to go read this essay.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I would agree with you there. Definitely do check out Le Guin’s essay - it’s brilliant, accessible, and relatively short. A half hour or less to read. Thanks so much for watching and commenting!

[@maddy0119]

Such a thoughtful video! I always appreciate it when the prose makes me feel like I'm in another world, no matter what style of prose or those worlds might be. Le Guin is so thoughtful as always but it's fun to reflect on all the different possibilities for the genre..

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Maddy! I feel the same way about prose. An author who spends the time to hone their craft can deliver prose that transports a reader to a created world. That’s the magic of fantasy.

[@yorkshirelasstracey5383]

Hello Philip, excellent video and I absolutely agree with Ursula k Leguin that epic fantasy prose should be removed from our world. When I read epic fantasy I want to be taken away to a strange new place where I need to learn how everything works in relation to the people and places that inhabit it. I want lyrical, beautiful prose that could be as you say poetic and evocative, something out of the ordinary. Thank you for drawing attention to Leguins essay Philip I will see if I can find the full version somewhere. 🤓

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Tracey! Beautifully said, and I want what you want from a fantasy journey. I found a pdf of the essay online just by searching through Google. It’s very much worth reading in full, and it’s actually not very long. It took me under half an hour to (re)read it. Happy reading!

[@yorkshirelasstracey5383]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thank you I will go and have a look now.

[@gerdforster883]

When the first of the (new) LotR films came out, Tolkien's german publisher had a new translation into more contemporary german done. The old translation by Margaret Carroux (with a lot of input from Tolkien himself; he meddled in all translations into languages he himself spoke) is said to be very poetic, but took the occasional artistic license to better catch the tone of the original. The fandom still pretends that the new version never existed. And I can see why. In it, Sam calls Frodo his Boss, instead of Meister (master). Funnily enough, the first fantasy novel I remember reading was written by one of the chief protagonists of New Objectivity. Admittedly, it's a book for children and in no way epic, but the prose is still great for the purpose.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’m pretty sure Tolkien would have agreed with his German-speaking fans in regard to the “new and improved” translation. “Boss”? Like Tattoo would say on Fantasy Island, one of the cringiest American television shows of the 80s.

[@gerdforster883]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I still want to find out what half-wit thought it be an absolutely marvelous idea to get said "new and improved" translation done, when the old translation was done with loads of input from Tolkien himself. How many semesters of business administration and marketing do you have to take at uni before you think THAT is a good idea?

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@gerdforster883 The people in suits (the bosses) always think they know more than everyone else. Any true fan of Tolkien in Germany, Austria, or Switzerland could have told them it would be a colossally horrible idea.

[@gerdforster883]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Hobbits are supposed to be salt of the earth, but not that quite that salty or earthy. The term "Boss" has been around for ages in Germany, but it is very colloquial, if not a little bit disparaging. It's something the orcs might use when talking about their masters.

[@TeamSnitchSeeker]

Excellent video, Philip. Very timely for me (at least when I viewed it!) as we just had a whole unit on style in my rhetoric class. The style definitely matters and can change the entire experience of a piece while still conveying the same information. Thanks for the video.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Danie! I’m glad the video was useful for you. Le Guin’s thoughts on prose have been very influential for me, so it’s good to hear that her ideas still resonate with many fantasy readers today.

[@theresavk483]

Loved this! Ursula Le Guin will always be one of my favorite authors. I am partial to her prose. I often reread her prose for inspiration, particularly the first three paragraphs of The Lathe of Heaven, which to me is pure poetry (and in a sci fi novel nonetheless--what a pioneer!). However, I do agree that the times have changed with regards to fantasy prose since the 1970s, and I'd like to think her thoughts on the subject may have evolved later on in her life.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I suspect you’re right, Theresa. Le Guin showed a willingness to evolve in her views and her writing - the most famous example her decision to take the Earthsea books in a more feminist direction, which was such an important decision for modern fantasy.

[@travelthroughstories]

Great video - I've been rather tepid about modern fantasy as of late primarily due to the "prose style" (or lack thereof?) of many modern fantasy writers. I do wish more writers in the genre were like Le Guin and Tolkien (and plenty of others, of course) and took prose seriously, as a fundamental aspect of their novel/world. That is, in my opinion, as it seems to be Le Guin's and Tolkien's, the prose style and the story need to be fundamentally linked. I wonder if you've done any thinking on the prose style/narratology of the fornaldarsögur or the riddarasögur and modern fantasy. They both seem quite interested in this "elfland" or land of the "fairy," in that they're are essentially narratives which travel into the "Other-world." Obviously they're quite different in some ways from the middle English/Old French stories from which a lot of modern fantasy is derived at least in terms of the conceptualization of the fae, but these stories seem to break down the barrier between "our world" and this "otherworld." I'm currently writing a dissertation which looks at the use of the "Fantastic" in Old Norse-Icelandic and was wondering if you had any thoughts on the matter! Interesting to hear your take on ER Eddison as well - one of my MA advisors from a few years ago does a lot of work on him and his translations/adaptations of the sagas.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks! I just saw your channel and subscribed. My own dissertation, finished some twenty years ago, was on William Morris’s saga translations and his Beowulf translation. I have a chapter on the influence these translations had on his “prose romances,” or what we now call fantasy. So, I’ve thought about what you’re doing in reverse more than the way you’re approaching the topic, which sounds fascinating to me. In truth, my dissertation was more linguistic and social/political in its focus, but I’m naturally very interested in the relationship between medieval texts and modern fantasy. I look forward to checking out your videos when I get some time!

[@travelthroughstories]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks for your thought response, Philip. Your work on William Morris sounds fascinating - Morris's translation of Völsunga saga was one of my earliest introductions to the genre. I'd be interested in hearing more, another time, of your thoughts on Morris's medievalism as it seems to be have rather influential in how we conceptualize "the medieval world" even beyond the Victorians...

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@travelthroughstories Morris’s work in the arts and crafts and his various books are responsible for many modern conceptions and misconceptions of “the medieval world” - definitely a topic I’d love to chat about!

[@imokin86]

That's super interesting. What are the differences, in your view, between how the "otherland" is shown in the sagas of Icelanders and in the fornaldarsogur? In stories like Grettir's saga, the supernatural can invade our world but the world of "mound-dwellers" can also be invaded from our side.

[@travelthroughstories]

@@imokin86 It is interesting - the difference seems to be in the portrayal of "genre." The supernatural (or is "paranormal" a better term as Ármann Jakobsson suggests?) doesn't make too many appearances in the Islendingasögur, with a few notable exceptions, whereas the "far-off" worlds in which the fornaldarsögur take place seem more ripe for these sorts of interactions. That is, they take place "long ago and far away," whereas most of the Íslendingasögur take place "not too long ago and in Iceland, mostly." Because of this, they seem to adhere to difference kinds of realities. Grettis saga seems to span these genres though, as you note. It is a really late saga, perhaps THE latest Íslendingasögur and thus I think it's actually playing with generic expectations and differences in ways that earlier Íslendingasögur don't. Grettir is this Beowulf-ian figure in a lot of ways that can move between these very "realistic" worlds and the "fantastical" worlds of these monsters, though these two worlds aren't as clear cut as that, probably. But there's a way to read Grettis saga, I think, as a convergence of these different genres and these different traditions in Old Norse-Icelandic literature - the last 5 chapters even act like a riddarasögur, or a Romance as it depicts the love affair between Spes and Thorstein in Constantinople. I haven't fully thought this through though... this is the subject of my last chapter, which I should be getting to in the spring! Hah. Grettis saga is incredible though. I taught it last spring in an "Outlaw literature" course - definitely one of my favorite sagas!

[@sy.kepler]

Great video, Philip! And equally great comments, too. Just as you were about to start quoting from Le Guin' essay, I pulled it up with google's help and browsed through it alongside you. I think I postponed long enough reading Le Guin, and will start the Earthsea Cycle (and probably The Dispossessed, The Word for World Is Forest et al. from the Hainish Cycle) sometime next year.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Sy! I agree that the comments from everyone are great - much of the experience for me lies in reading people’s thoughts. I hope you’ll enjoy Le Guin’s books when you read them!

[@darmokandjalad7786]

I haven’t done any of my assigned readings for school this week, but I’m definitely going to read this essay.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Excellent! It’s a foundation of the genre, in my opinion.

[@trill_nathan]

I'd be curious to know. How do you feel Abercrombie would fare on LeGuin's "test"?. I know you're a big fan of him (as am I) but his dialogue is very modern sounding. Also, I wish I had the exact quote, but I do remember that somewhere on his blog he expressed a lack of interest in archaic sounding dialogue, so that definitely explains why he does what he does.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Abercrombie’s Northmen have a very distinct voice to my American ears, though it’s possible that he’s imitating some rural accent in England, I suppose. He gives other characters distinct accents, such as Ferro, as well. So, overall, while it’s not necessarily archaic, Abercrombie’s prose is distinct and succeeds in giving a sense of a world not our own. Cheers, Nathan!

[@trill_nathan]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks for the indepth answer. I find that very reassuring because his style is probably the one that has been most influential on my own

[@michaelvcelentano]

What a great reminder that style matters! We were talking about this a bit in my musical modernism lecture as musical and literary styles shifted post-WWI. Are those essays (Le Guin and Tolkien) collected somewhere? I’ll have to take a look when my coursework slows down.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Michael! I found a pdf of Le Guin’s essay online. I’m pretty sure you’d be able to find Tolkien’s the same way. Since you likely have access to an academic library, I’m reasonably sure you’d be able to use a database like Literature Resource Center or MLA International Bibliography to find the essays too. They are foundational for the modern fantasy genre, in my opinion. Happy reading!

[@hhoi8225]

Great video! I wonder how much of the unduly modern prose problem (specifically in English) stems from many people not knowing even a bit of Latin, Greek, etc? And not being able to differentiate between relatively new words versus ones that are so old that their roots are no longer obvious to a layperson?

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Emily! You raise an important point. Linguistic awareness is undoubtedly a factor in the level of prose people can read and appreciate. It would be wonderful if our education system emphasized languages more strongly and at an earlier age.

[@hhoi8225]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Especially in the U.S. where we are so behind in languages!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@hhoi8225 Exactly!

[@RedFuryBooks]

What do you think of Robert E. Howard’s prose? That aspect of his Conan stories surprised me in how much I enjoy it.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

It’s been a very long time since I read a Conan story, but going from memory, I’d say Howard’s prose has aged a lot better than the prose of many fantasy writers of the same era, like Eddison, for example.

[@RedFuryBooks]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Based on the passage you read in the video, I'd say that Howard's prose has DEFINITELY aged better than that of Eddison! But I haven't read him so can't say for sure. But I've been reading the Conan stories as a change of pace from epic fantasy, and it's a fun diversion.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@RedFuryBooks I hope to go back to Conan someday too!

[@EricMcLuen]

Excellent observations. Fully agree on the tightrope metaphor. Colloquilisms change to the point of almost becoming a new vernacular. You don't have to go back very far to see how language has changed. Just read some autobiographies or other text from 100 or even 50 years ago. For example it was commonplace for people to use what today would be considered 'big words' and speak in a more formal manner.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

So true, Eric. I’m reminded of how ideas about formality change every time I get an email message from a student: “Hey, doc!”

[@EricMcLuen]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I can think of a few professors I had that would have ignored those as there is no 'doc' here.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@EricMcLuen Ha ha! I answer them. While sighing or rolling my eyes or chuckling.

[@MacScarfield]

Sorry for being a bit “GGK-centric” lately, but I greatly enjoyed his Tolkien Lecture (available here on YT), where he mentioned fantasy as a better and more empathetic way to understand the worldview and actions of our ancestors, than what the 20/20 hindsight of the cold rationalism of modern times. As for his prose it self, I was initially a bit underwhelmed, expecting his prose to be somewhere along Tolkien or Clark Ashton Smith. While he sometimes does use some archaic historical and fantasy terms and concepts to distance his setting from our world, but for the most part he could have been writing stories set IRL, at least in the not too distant past. His magic lies more in the small drips of character and world building throughout the story, that over time build an enormous empathy for his characters and/or interest in his setting, rather than dragons. Also read Clark Ashton Smith recently, a true wordsmith and recognized poet with an enormous and truely archaic vocabulary in his prose. While his writing is better when dealing with his settings and moods than his characters (who rarely last out the short story they are in, anyway), I found that his “Poseidonis”-short story “The Last Incantation" gave the character Malygris a tragic depth in impressive short writing. Especially when reading it before “The Death of Malygris".

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Having read only Tigana, I am an admirer of Kay’s prose there but perhaps unqualified to speak on it generally. In Tigana, he walks the prose tightrope with grace - among the best exemplars of what Le Guin was advocating for, in my opinion. Thanks for the other suggestions, MacScarfield!

[@MetalGildarts]

Awesome video Phil. I’m learning to employ some flowery language in my prose for my epic fantasy, cause that helps me be more immersed in the story and I love literary devices. I don’t like the idea that I have to “dumb it down” like everyone else, cause how am I supposed to stand out if I write like everyone else? This is why I always attempt to read 2-3 classic fantasy series every year.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Marco! I do think that writers of epic fantasy can make their world more immersive through the right prose. I wish you the very best with walking the tightrope!

[@TheLittleX]

I Love the idea that for example in TLotR and malazan the books you read literally exist in the world the author created and so the remote prose wonderfully reflects that. The books are not just novels in our sense but although tellings in that very world and written by the people of that fantasyworld.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

That’s exactly right - in both of those examples, there’s a meta narrative that someone else is the “author,” someone from that world, and so the narrative voice should reflect that. Great point!

[@goldvondensternen]

Great discussion. I was previously unfamiliar with this essay, but Le Guin (at least in Earthsea) is actually one of my common points of reference for fantasy prose I enjoy! Her writing is straightforward yet elegant, incorporating the right touch of poetry. While having a very different output, Martin is another go-to example who’s a bit more modern - overall, I think he successfully modulates between the more “grounded” and “heightened” aspects of his setting. Both excel at that tightrope-walking in their own ways, as you say. I also like Tolkien, though I understand why he’s not everyone’s cup of tea. On the other hand, I quite dislike Jordan. Though I think he technically walks the figurative tightrope? I don’t know what it is, but his prose just doesn’t captivate me. It’s descriptive but also rote, and the pacing doesn’t help. It’s one of the reasons I prefer listening to WoT on audiobook. It’s science fiction, but This Is How You Lose the Time War fell too far into the “elaborate” extreme for me, to the point it felt like the authors put the poetical exercise first, story and emotion second. I appreciate it but I wanted to love it more than I did. I’m looking forward to reading GGK next year because I’ve heard he takes a more leveled poetic approach. On the other end… I haven’t done a lot of YA and don’t want to rag on it but much of the YA I’ve read fails to immerse and convey the emotionality it aims for. It just feels stilted and shallow. (Conversely, Frank Herbert is a very clinical writer but I think he makes it work for his story).

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Excellent examples, Margot! I completely agree with you about Le Guin, Tolkien, and Martin. Jordan’s prose I find beautiful at times but also sometimes just a bit overwrought. As for YA, it can be hard for me to read for similar reasons, but it serves a great purpose of bringing new readers to the genre with accessible prose. Wonderful to hear your thoughts!

[@goldvondensternen]

Thanks - I’ve learned I have more opinions on prose in fantasy than I thought I did!

[@marsrock316]

I didn't finish Time War even though it's short and I like Gladstone. Something about the construction of the language or the conceit of the setup (which I guess was supposed to be akin to letter writing?) didn't strike the right tone with me. Even the generic use of Red and Blue as designations for the two characters felt too mundane for the setting. (Also, too close to simple gaming conventions of Red and Blue teams and, more specifically, to a popular series of HALO videos.)

[@Abby-le5jk]

I really enjoyed this video! Reminded me of a writing workshop class 🙂

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’m happy you enjoyed it, Abby!

[@billyalarie929]

This is extremely reassuring, as a writer, that my preferred style of prose is not automatically doomed to be me with only derision, only ridicule, only complaints of being impenetrable.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

If I’m going to err, I’d prefer to do so on the side of writing in a stylized manner rather than land my readers in Poughkeepsie.

[@CatastrophicDisease]

Great video as always. As a side note, in terms for pure skillfulness of prose, Ursula Le Guin and John Steinbeck stand alone as the greatest English-language writers, in my opinion.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I won’t argue against that assessment - they are both brilliant writers, and both are among the very best in their use of rich symbols and incorporation of theme.

[@marsrock316]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy think of the rabbits?

[@demidrek-heyward]

Thanks Phillip!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’m glad you enjoyed this one, Mathias!

[@zan8152]

Great discussion dr. chase, I always love these prose ones, since I think similar to you that's always one of the highlights to me, of what fantasy can do - the transportive sense of being in another reality through words alone. I did have a thought just now, and it's only semi formed, so bear with me if this question is silly, but is the advice here somewhat tautological? That is - fantasy should be grounded, yet different. But what is fantasy other than that? Go one way, and it's 'realism' - can you have a fantasy novel with 100% modern words/prose/terminology, and zero made up words or concepts? Go the other and it's... i dunno. nonsense, I suppose. Are we defining good prose for fantasy, when we could also say 'works with prose on this particular tightrope are what fantasy *is*?" I don't know that that's a helpful argument, since I think her core point, I agree, makes sense to me, but... maybe it could be an interesting reverse angle to take, and could reveal other works shelved not under fantasy ("Literary Fiction" or something) that *also* bolster the core of what fantasy is.

[@zan8152]

I guess the difference is whether we're arguing what fantasy "is" vs. what's *good* for fantasy. Which the 2nd is what she's going for, and mine is more the first. Going in different directions a bit. Just thoughts.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@zan8152 You pose some valid questions, Zan. I suspect that a fantasy book is more than its prose, but that the prose is an essential part of it. Of course, no prose means no book. Beyond that, though, is “fantasy prose” different from other kinds of prose? Le Guin’s answer is a definitive yes because fantasy prose has the extra task of creating an imagined world. She would say that you can’t separate that task from the prose, I think.

[@afantasybabble6222]

Fantastic video. The idea that how we perceive prose changes based on time is one that is sometimes missed by readers. This can lead to an underapprreciation of styles written in the past. I always like to switch my mindset and expectations when reading books with an older style. Personally, I appreciate both older and modern prose. It all depends on the story and what is appropriate or what the author is aiming to do. What I really enjoy are books that use a certain style of prose or voice. Something like Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell. Clarke takes meticulous care to replicate a style and I found it extremely delightful as well as challenging. Another example would the Marie Brendan's series called The Memoirs of Lady Trent. Characters have a distinct voice that matches the story that Brennan is trying to tell. I am currently reading Gideon the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir and this is a great example of an author purposely using a modern prose style to tell her story. I really enjoy how it is written. Prose can enhance a story. This is something that I have come to appreciate as I read more. Good prose can evoke emotion in a reader more effectively and make the reading experience more impactful and memorable. Guy Gavriel Kay is a writer that does this does for me Lastly, I would like to recommend some newer authors with fantastic prose. First, I recommend Sofia Samatar. She is an academic and award winning poet who has published two fantastic books. Her 2013 debut, A Stranger In Olandria, is absolutely stunning. The prose is distinct, evocative, and effective. The story is also rich with meaning. I think this is a book that you would very much enjoy. The next two authors I would recommend are a lot newer. These are Alix E Harrow and Nghi Vo. I recommend The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E Harrow. Aside from the gorgeous prose, this story is about home and the journey to find a sense of belonging. By Nghi Vo I recommend the novella, The Empress of Salt and Fortune. A great example of how brilliant shorter fiction can be. Inspired by Asian mythology and comments on the way history is told and made known.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Excellent point about changing one’s mindset! I couldn’t have said it better. Also, I enthusiastically agree with you about Susanna Clarke and Guy Gavriel Kay. Both are authors with consummate skill at creating worlds with stylized prose. Finally, thank you for the recommendations, which I hope to read in the future!

[@darrylgordon6360]

One underrated series might be Robert Silverberg lord valentines castle trilogy. Stephen r Donaldson way too archaic couldn't find the definition of many words even in an unabridged dictionary.

[@darrylgordon6360]

I invented a way people from the South could speak and in another story how robots respond to humans. Both of which got put down heavily in my creative writing course. I think I didn't set it up right or was too jarring for a mainstream audience.

[@darrylgordon6360]

I just wrote A song which could be transformed into a poem but the tone of the composition would be too dark and crude for a poem.

[@TheyTalkPolitics]

I shall return from whence I came, until I am complete again. I am always impressed with those who can pull off “Elfland” speech.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

It can be perilous indeed to use Elfland speech, but it can pay off richly if done well! Cheers, Joseph!

[@marsrock316]

Just finishing book 1 of House of Chains. One slightly jarring example is seeing the words "belly button" in a Karsa context. Since he's a lathum fingrum (I may be misusing that; I know it's applied to Grendel's mother and can be translated as "badass warrior," but don't know if it's gendered), it seems out of place to read about his hissing bloodsword slicing and hacking at buttons. Perhaps navel or just belly would've sounded better. :) (There was another slight language jar in the same chapter, but can't recall it at the moment.)

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

“Belly button”? Huh. I must’ve forgotten that somewhere in the other 2,999,999 words in the series! 😁 I probably would have avoided references to that particular part of the body since there’s no word for it that won’t give pause. I hope you’ll enjoy the rest of House of Chains!

[@hhoi8225]

That's hilarious. Now I need to go find out what other terms exist for that. My children's 2nd language is Khmer, which uses the both alarming and delightful term "stomach mushroom."

[@marsrock316]

@@hhoi8225 had not heard that term before: stomach mushrooms must be outies... :)

[@mintleafbluesey]

hello !! great video . do you have goodreads?

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Hello, Asma, and thank you! I’m not active on Goodreads yet. I’d like to be, but I just don’t have time at this point.

[@merleharris7485]

Realism in prose is tied to the journalistic style of 19th century Realism writers like Twain and their 20th century Modernism heirs like Hemingway. So, your equating of a journalistic style being out of place in fantasy is spot on. The naturalism of Realism and Modernism is bound "below the line," and doesn't address any objective above line truths, like Tolkien (who took great care to root his fantasy in reality). Interestingly, Le Guin didn't care for Leiber's Fafnir and the Gray Mouser prose. Such "low fantasy" also comes out of the same Modernist period that gave us urban detective stories and is connected with overall cultural oeuvre of the time. There's room for all of it, and while I like high standards, there's no need to be elitist as Le Guin comes off in what you've cited. Great topic for a video! Would you consider doing one on her essay "Why Are Americans Afraid of Dragons?" as well?

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks for the excellent comment and for the suggestion, Merle! I agree that there’s room for more journalistic prose in fantasy (I just finished a Dresden Files book, where archaic prose would fit about as well as platemail armor on James Bond). I will think about doing a video on “Why are Americans Afraid of Dragons?”.

[@merleharris7485]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy You bet! Thank you for your thoughtful and affable ongoing series of videos on fantasy. I'm a retired junior college level literature and film teacher. I also write, my most notable effort being a graphic novel published by Image comics a while back called "Heaven's War." You might find it interesting b/c it features Tolkien and Lewis as Charles Williams' "wing men" in a confrontation w/ Aleister Crowley for the fate of the world, natch. :) I'm currently revising a prose fantasy trilogy I self-published for republication. By the way, I'm using my mom Merle's gmail account; my name is Micah. LOL! Looking forward to more of your content!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@merleharris7485 Thanks, Micah! When you have that trilogy, or at least the first book, ready for republication, I’d love to take a look at it for a review. Please keep me informed, and best wishes for your writing!

[@merleharris7485]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy That's very, very kind of you! Thank you very much. I'll follow up when it's ready and will happily send you review copies of the complete trilogy! Again, thanks so much for your interest. :)

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@merleharris7485 My pleasure!

[@LiamsLyceum]

I think the most interesting authors she talks about are Leiber, Zelazny, and Vance. I love each one of their writing, and I think it’s interesting that she thinks maybe they lack confidence in their abilities.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

When it comes to fantasy prose, the needle has definitely moved since the time when Le Guin wrote the essay, but I think her fundamental points are still sound. Cheers, Liam!

[@moesypittounikos]

Eddisons prose varied. His Ouroboros is amazing and i find it easy to read. The archaic writing is readable archaic. The two prequels to Ouroboros Eddison seems to write even more achaic on purpose!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I did not enjoy Eddison’s prose so much in The Worm Ouroboros. A bit too stylized and monotonous for me, though, being a medievalist, I tend to like archaic prose usually. Perhaps I’ll give his writing another chance. Cheers!

[@derrisreaditbefore]

That final quote is a doozy, and I agree that the point is still valid, even if the examples have become outdated. In fantasy, and sci-fi, for that matter - what stands out to me is slang. It doesn't matter if it's vocabulary in standard use when the book was written, or if it's completely pulled from thin air, slang rarely works. What I've found for my own taste is that when a writer uses proper language, real but unusual or rare words, that it's an easier mental transition to make. This has given me words I find delight in knowing, and words I'm astonished so few people recognize. Quaffing. Ambling. Defenestration. Coracle. Languid. Thanks Prof. Fantasy!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Excellent point about slang, Derri. Slang really dates a book. Some “classics” get away with it, like The Great Gatsby, which has become an expression of its era. But slang in epic fantasy would be the kiss of death. Unless it’s a parody.

[@imokin86]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Or unless it's how specific characters speak. A thief or a seedy barkeeper using slang isn't so much out of place - especially in books with a mixed setting, not purely medieval-elf-dwarf high fantasy. Depending on the author's craft, of course: a writer with a good ear would pick slang words that aren't so ephemeral and restricted to, say, one decade.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@imokin86 As long as its "era appropriate" (not anachronistic) slang, I definitely agree, Igor. I would be jarred out of Middle-Earth, for example, if Galadriel said, "Groovy!" 😁

[@marsrock316]

"Defenestration" is an excellent descriptive word. It's a good thing it's no longer widely practiced in the world. Except for one or two places...

[@derrisreaditbefore]

@@marsrock316 it's one of the words I delight in knowing - that there exists such a word in the first place is marvelous.

[@VicRibeiro777]

If I may note something... I've started with E.R. Eddison's work "The Worm Ouroboros" 3 times. I've never made it past a couple of chapters. It is still on my TBR, and I hope to get to it one day. But if I compare that with Tolkien, I know Tolkien is not the easiest to get into, but I've read his stories more than once, and LOVED it.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

The Worm of Ouroboros is the only thing I’ve read by Eddison. I doubt I’ll ever read anything else by him. As a medievalist, I have a fondness for slightly archaic prose, but I found Eddison’s just too tedious.

[@VicRibeiro777]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I hope this ages poorly as I intend to read his tetralogy and that it shoots up to one of my favourite Classic Fantasy series... Well, that is the hope, not many people I follow on booktube or goodreads have read the complete works by Eddison, so, there's that... hehe.

[@Scarla2U]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Try the other Zimiamvia books, I think they're more accessible.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@Scarla2U Thanks for the recommendation!

[@maxxam4665]

Although I am not a native English speaker if I read a fantasy piece in prose or even a comic panel and read something like "NO WAY!!" I hate it xD Jokes aside, great videos, it gave me a new insight on an essay I always cheered!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I'm always happy to hear from fans of Le Guin and her essays!

[@brush2canvas849]

How dare you do this to me?! Putting up a video that invites discussion of an essay, an essay of one of my favourite fantasy writers at that. Philip Chase have you any idea what this is doing to me? 😳Before I was halfway through the video I had that essay collection off the shelf. My fingers are shaking with the effort of fighting the urge to immediately reread LeGuin so that I can craft an adequate reply. You know that this is not good for an ex-academic like me. One day I will lose that fight and relapse and write an essay myself. 😱😱 Now, back to surealism, poetry, mystcism, insanity --- back to Elfland, back to work.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Ha ha! One of my unstated missions on the channel is to torture ex-academics. “See how nice it is to write an essay? You WANT to write an essay with citations and footnotes and a bibliography longer than the essay itself, don’t you?” Le Guin is one of my favorites too - definitely a formative influence for me!

[@brush2canvas849]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh, how cruel!! 🥺But it's not going to work. Citations, footnotes, bibliography -- pah!! Venitian Red, Burnt Umber, Ochre, OCHRE!!! 😝😝😝

[@brush2canvas849]

Oh, and I absolutely adore LeGuin ever since I encountered her in 1987. She would definitely be worth a reread. Which btw I wouldn't even think about if your videos were not so damn excellent.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@brush2canvas849 Drowning in ochre - there are undoubtedly worse fates! 😁

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@brush2canvas849 I plan to do an Earthsea series reread myself, perhaps in 2022, though later in the year!

[@safinan8008]

Interesting video!! 😊 will u be watching wheel of time series?? Happy reading to you!! 😊🍁

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Safina! Yes, I’m going to check out the Wheel of Time series. I hope it will be fantastic!

[@titojdavis8374]

Have you ever read Gene Wolfe? Book of the New Sun shows some of the best prose the genre has to offer

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’ll be reading it later this year, most likely, and I’m looking forward to it.

[@titojdavis8374]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Just finished first half and... you'll have to come to terms with "wow I won't get everything out of first (or second) reading, I'll have to come back to it at some point". It's like poetry with a half dozen solid layers, but a whole tetrology of ~400k words. first read through just try and figure out what things look like, what they could be in a future earth sense, maybe watch Moid of media death cult's convos with alzabo soup after each book

[@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD]

I really enjoyed this.... while I can enjoy a story told with more simple prose, I consider it "brain candy".... and too much "brain candy" will rot your brain just as real candy does for your teeth. I've been purposely trying to stretch my brain a bit more with literary classics as well as fantasy with "high end" prose and saving the brain candy for a treat now and then.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

That’s an excellent analogy! I do think we can train ourselves for various “levels” of prose. I’ve heard many times from younger readers of modern fantasy how they struggled at first with Lord of the Rings - but when they finished and returned to their usual reads, they realized how simple they were.

[@billswan4419]

Don't forget the prose of Patricia mckillopl winter rose and forgotten beasts of els

[@christopherfly9374]

Language is fluid. Even in the scant 50 years since Ms. Le Guin's essay, language has evolved considerably. The writer must operate under a delicate balance between archaic prose which firmly defines place and time but is inaccessible to modern readers and a mundane prose which disassociates readers from the world the writer is trying to create. As language evolves, so must the writer.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Beautifully said, Christopher! What you describe is the best path for an aspiring fantasy writer, I think. Of course, it takes much practice and deliberate honing of the craft.

[@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD]

So where do you think the education system plays a role in language fluidity. I think the education system has been "dumbed down" over time esp in regards to vocabulary usage and sentence structure. I'm sure these are "fighting words" to some but I much prefer a more "archaic" prose or ones that find the balance like Hobb. I taught my children in a more classical way when we homeschooled and I think that prepared them well for public high school (vocabulary, Latin, spelling, sentence diagramming to learn structure). I think those things are very much a lost art.

[@christopherfly9374]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy The writer also must identify their target audience and the desires of that audience.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD It sounds to me that you prepared your children very well! I wish more people would learn Latin, which started me on my love for languages.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@christopherfly9374 That too is crucial.

[@sethhale235]

In my estimation -- and I don't intend any of this negatively toward anyone or their preferences -- prose has been degraded over the past century by a few causes and especially, perhaps, in SFF. Part of it might go back to Faulkner's criticism of Hemingway, that his simplistic/near-journalistic style planted the seeds. I like Hemingway but I do think that he and his ilk were the impetus. Then I would imagine movies have had a major impact on prose. Though I quite enjoy Brandon Sanderson, he and others have talked about the rule of cool (especially in regards to magic systems but I think it reaches beyond that). The origin of the rule of cool seems like action movies which became sleeker and sleeker and made the protagonist cooler and cooler (also maybe from RPG's... not sure). Cool is a poor replacement for the true, good and beautiful but it's a lot easier to digest. Cool seems to get bogged down in prose. Cool begs for cool language. Witty action movie and noir dialogue. Needs to be punchy. Needs the writing to feel, in some way, cinematic. The next two reasons I'll lump together. People don't believe in any sort of objective standards (across the board but especially for beauty) and no one reads the classics or foundational texts as they once did. I feel as if those sort of go hand in hand. Tolkien and Lewis and Dunsany and Chambers and Lovecraft and Charles Williams and so on had read texts that predated them by centuries. In some instances, millennia. They could see the threads of what was considered good across time. People today mostly read each other. So reflected in the works is not what was found beautiful and good historically but instead only this current moment and only the subjective. Sure, some older styles may not hold up to modern readers, but to me that seems far more an issue with modern readers than those older styles. I don't think of the modern reader as a good metric. Now what should be the aim of fantasy prose? I think you made a fair point about it though I'm not sure I'd say there is the failing of being too archaic, necessarily. Fantasy distinguishes itself in combination. Tolkien purposefully created what would have been anachronisms in his world that was in a lot of ways analogous to parts of the real world in the medieval era otherwise. Hobbits having umbrellas being something he pointed to. Tolkien's poem Mythopoeia and the act of Mythopoeia make this point. The idea of sub-creation. And man cannot create from nothing but instead through combination. Fantasy excels in that aspect more than any genre because of the depth of creation and combination to which it can aspire. So, to me, it would seem the language would require that as well. Setting itself apart from its origins in fairytale and legends and myth, and yet not falling into the completely modern, which seems to be to your point. Anyway, I liked this video. I've been subscribed to your channel for a while but haven't gotten around to watching much yet. I hope this wasn't a rambling mess.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful comments, Seth! You make several great points, and I’m inclined to agree with you in general about the evolution of prose and some of the probable causes. There’s no doubt in my mind that writers, especially genre fiction writers, feel pressure to be more cinematic. Screens rule the day, and writers no doubt feel the need to cater to readers who have been trained by storytelling on screens. In general, this means a lot less exposition and description in favor of a lot more action and dialogue (preferably snappy and full of quotable one liners). Are attention spans shrinking along with willingness to engage in “hard” writing? Maybe. As a medievalist and a fantasy fan, I have my biases - I love fantasy that features at least some level of archaism. Aside from my admitted bias, however, I do think there’s an issue of quality in regard to prose - at least I think it’s worth debating. Thanks again for weighing in - I enjoyed your thoughts very much!

[@hhoi8225]

Sanderson really makes a virtue of "invisible" prose, which means we can infer a lot about him and his perception of his audience from his prose. It would be interesting to fast-forward several centuries and hear how his prose is described by people using language as it exists then as opposed to now.

[@AnEruditeAdventure]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I think it largely ties in to why I so strongly dislike the use of common Earth curses in fantasy. There is definitely more to my dislike than this, but it may indeed contribute to it. Wonderful discussion. -T

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Swearing is a tricky business in fantasy. On the one hand, people swear (not everyone, of course). So, it stands to reason that people in fantasy worlds would swear, especially when under stress (stress happens in fantasy - being chased by dragons is scary). On the other hand, what would their swears be? Should an author create new swears for that world? Some do that, but there’s a risk there of sounding cheesy. It’s an interesting problem, I think!

[@AnEruditeAdventure]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy exactly. For me it’s less of an issue for them to be swearing (though I don’t like it, and don’t do it myself), and more that it often feels out of place. But the issue of made up swears being a bit cheesy is definitely a thing. I think Stormlight does it a bit better than many, but even those seem cheesy sometimes. I don’t know what the right answer is, but I definitely lean more towards making them up.

[@gabechouinard]

Style, to me, is something that is seriously lacking in modern fantasy. I don't want to blame Brandon Sanderson or Christopher Paolini, but the whole shift toward transparent prose has really robbed the genre of it's "flair", in my opinion. If you look at, for instance: Tad Williams, M John Harrison (Viriconium tales), Gene Wolfe (The Wizard Knight), Matt Stover (Acts of Caine), David Anthony Durham (Acacia), and dozens more, they exhibit very different and individualized styles, yet those styles reflect the needs of the story. This generic prose style currently popular in fantasy, on the other hand, seems to represent a dumbing down/YA-ification of the fantastic that is directly at odds with the aims of the genre.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

My instincts are to agree heartily with what you wrote in your comment in regard to modern fantasy prose, and in this case I’m going to listen to my instincts. Thanks for the excellent thoughts, Gabriel!

[@gabechouinard]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I don't want to be one of those people that bag on modern fantasy, but I read that Le Guin article long ago, along with "Science Fiction and Mrs. Brown", and Samuel Delany on paraliterature (especially in Silent Interviews) and I can't imagine what they'd make of John Gwynne vs. Jonathan Carroll. I truly believe that prose is the foundation of the genre, whether it's "The door dilated" by Heinlein or "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit." Nor can I imagine fantasy without the prose of Dunsany, Clark Ashton Smith, the vigor of Robert Howard, the wit of Fritz Leiber, or the ornate styling of Jack Vance, Leigh Brackett, CL Moore, Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champions...

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@gabechouinard Well said once again, Gabriel. I do wonder sometimes if our perception might be distorted a little by the fact that we tend to compare the best of the past - those authors whose works endure - to a broader array of authors in the present. Will readers of the future look back on our era with envy? Hmmmm.

[@marklawrence8418]

That Edison was painful...

[@marklawrence8418]

The Tolkien was much better and when he pushes the boat out he's sublime.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@marklawrence8418 Yes, the E.R. Eddison quote is cringeworthy, for sure -- at least these days. I'm actually not sure if his prose was ever as good as Le Guin seems to have thought, but she was less enthusiastic about Lord Dunsany, who is the most famous example of overdoing the archaic stuff. Perhaps Eddison plunged off the tightrope, but I guess he had a good run! As for Tolkien, for the longest time I'm afraid that I believed fantasy prose should be just like his. I've read a bit more now, fortunately. The funny thing is that his books would be unpublishable today, and largely due to the style. I still love his books, though.

[@RalphNC09]

That first example you read, see, I didn't even understand what was being said. I do agree sometimes dialogue and descriptions feel out of place when it reflects how we on earth talk as opposed to reflecting speech in a whole other high-fantasy world. But I think being able to clearly and effectively communicate to the reader is more important than having nice prose. You can certainly have beautiful writing! But I think its more of a priority thing. Edit: And yes I love the Tolkien example more. Its simple, but its not too simple you know?

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Well said, and I agree. Priority one: be understood. Priority two: cultivate some style. Priority three: develop your own voice. That’s probably the best order for an aspiring writer. Thanks for your thoughts!

[@cabrademora1]

:D

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Diego!

[@robpaul7544]

Reading the article I'm immediately reminded of Scorsese drawing a hard distinction between 'cinema' and 'Marvel'. In both cases there are parts I agree with, but also a strong sense of elitism I disagree with. Language is fluid, as is art - and the interpretations and expectations of both are as varied as there are creators and audiences. Fantasy in Le Guin's essay is put forward as exaggerated realities separate from normality through language for the purpose of psychoanalysis. Modern fantasy seems more concerned with analyzing reality through exaggerated examples given in normal language to connect with the reader. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I saw no flaw in the example of the Elflords on Capitol hill - I'd be down for a political fantasy novel like that. Le Guin says she finds fault in the character of a man who can say 'I told you so' - much like she can find fault in Boromir's character from his words. To her such a man can never be heroic - but what if he was never meant to be her type of hero? What if perceptions on who can or cannot (ever) be heroic have changed?

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Those are fair concerns/criticisms of Le Guin’s essay, Rob. I can see why you’d be concerned about elitism. I feel a bit conflicted myself. On the one hand, I feel jarred out of an epic fantasy when the characters speak like my students or my neighbors. The fantasy world doesn’t convince me, and I never feel immersed in the story. On the other hand, I recognize that my experience is not everyone’s experience. Some people aren’t at all bothered by colloquial prose and contemporary slang appearing in epic fantasy. I usually consider myself against gatekeeping, but I also feel that some writers are more talented when it comes to prose than others, almost always through hard work and honing their craft. Thanks for your thoughts!

[@robpaul7544]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy It's not gatekeeping to have preferences and express those Philip, don't worry 😉 Writing is both art and craft, so it's fair to say it depends on both natural talent and hard work. Both talent and experience can be nourished and grown. But neither can guarantee success - and vice versa success also seems attainable for those with neither. Now success isn't the same as being 'good', but at the same time if something is successful it has most likely succeeded in connecting with an audience which makes it good. If that makes sense.. There are many types of prose, and many types of stories. Some fit better than others. For classic epic fantasy, I'd probably agree that slang and colloquialisms are a tough fit. But I also think well used slang is probably preferable to badly used archaisms. Especially as more people, both writers and readers, become less versed in archaic language. Writers after all seek to connect with those readers. Though, what is considered archaic also constantly changes. Victorian English sounded normal to those speaking it back in the day, and writing in full length sentences can be considered archaic by those communicating in abbreviations and tweets nowadays - and colloquialisms and slang become part of everyday language.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@robpaul7544 All very true! Language changes with time. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be a medievalist. I mean, if everyone could read Beowulf in Old English without effort, I’d be out of a job! 😁 So true too about the differences between success and a high level of achievement - the two don’t always overlap.

[@marsrock316]

A worse example of elitism is Spielberg in 2018 complaining about Roma being nominated for Best Picture Oscar because it was a Netflix film. I think he was on the Academy board at the time and wanted to change the rules so it wouldn't happen again. The problem is that Roma is a work of art. This in the same year as Spielberg delivered mercenary crap like Ready Player One. As far as Scorcese's concerned, complaining about the "sameness" of superhero films after delivering his umpteenth gangster movie retreading the same tired tropes (The Irishman in 2019; which I disliked)... Let's just say neither director seemed aware of the irony.

[@jscast39]

I had a pretty negative reaction against the essay when I read it as a teenager. I thought it was a bit elitist, snobbish. Now that I'm older and have read a lot I see the essay as a challenge to both readers and writers. Indeed there is a place for romp and bubblegum in fantasy fiction, but the genre should not just coddle its readers -- whether by making the prose 'accessible' for the sake of accessibility (or 'marketability'), or tackling superficial or rehashed/tired tropes/themes. A good example, I think, of an author and work who exemplifies Le Guin's ideals is Philip Pullman and his work on His Dark Materials.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’m a fan of His Dark Materials, so it’s easy for me to agree with that as an example. I also agree that there’s space within fantasy “romp and bubblegum” (nice way to put that!) as well as more challenging reads. Thanks, Justine!