443: False Prophets, Judgment, & Gen Z with Joshua Packard

[@Kelga80]

The idea that Jesus won’t return until we get our act together reminds me of some cults. They predicted Jesus would return and when He didn’t the story was that the people weren’t holy enough yet. It was used to control and abuse the people.

[@frithar]

Exactly

[@danielcherng2226]

It seems so prideful that they think God will raise America to bring about the kingdom of Jesus. God can use any nation or anyone.

[@alexandrorocca7142]

It's peculiar that God didn't seem to be aware of America's existence until it was discovered almost 1500 years after Jesus' death. God and Jesus were only focused on that little region of the Middle East for some reason. People living in other places didn't deserve to know how to save themselves?

[@veronica944]

@@alexandrorocca7142 Well, the Bible focuses on the history of Gods people and so mainly focuses on the countries where his people are. But also Acts talks about the gospel going to nations outside the Middle East. But actually America is mentioned in bible prophecy, but not in the way most people think

[@pressia07]

its such arrogance which God despises

[@Inhumantics]

A hymn we sing in my UCC church, titled, "This is My Song" This is my song, O God of all the nations, a song of peace for lands afar and mine; this is my home, the country where my heart is; here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine: but other hearts in other lands are beating with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine. My country’s skies are bluer than the ocean, and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine; but other lands have sunlight too, and clover, and skies are everywhere as blue as mine: O hear my song, thou God of all the nations, a song of peace for their land and for mine. May truth and freedom come to every nation; may peace abound where strife has raged so long; that each may seek to love and build together, a world united, righting every wrong; a world united in its love for freedom, proclaiming peace together in one song.*

[@DJ5780]

@@veronica944 where??

[@marvinschlaak9188]

"When you teach, who's wounds are you trying to heal?" That right there was worth the price of admission. I am reminded of the reality that it often matters less "what" I am doing and far more "why" I am doing it. In the immortal words of Bender on Futurama when it was trying to learn about humor and sarcasm, "I get it. It's funny because it hurts someone." Made me check my appetites a great deal, that did. This was my first time here. I will listen more. Thanks for this.

[@scottylamm9673]

I’d like Phil to do a video on the history of the Christian Dominion movement. I know he gave a quick overview but it seems like there is more to cover. The Great Disappointment has always fascinated me so more info and perspective on it would be appreciated. Especially if it is fundamental to the new ICN movement.

[@ScottRoche]

"Your name is not Phil Vicious" Now he needs to start a ukulele punk band call the Veg Pistols.

[@judyclark1449]

Phil i am sorry you are being attacked in social media, I recommend you watch Brene Brown Ted talk on vulnerability. You are brave to take on difficult issues, but as a result you will inadvertently be a target. I appreciate the podcast as many pastors will not discuss the heated topics you take on. It’s not worth airing your grievances about people you can’t control. You are overthinking the issue and its not worth your peace. We are human and seek approval, but not everyone agreed with Jesus. Do not allow the negative feedback to consume your thoughts. I agree with your guest Counseling will help process your thoughts process, keep up the great work!

[@1993greeksoldier]

I think you raise an excellent point of not focusing on the actions of others you can't control. I would encourage others to avoid doing this as well. I would point out his public grappling with his motives and acknowledging he might be wrong is very moving to me. I can't speak for others but I'm incredibly grateful to see someone I respect display that internal conflict.

[@scottylamm9673]

I agree that Jesus had a sense of humor. The Chosen tv series does a great job showing this. Highly recommend it!

[@2serve4Christ]

Thank you for the encouraging and challenging discussions. The focus on HP tends to be on leadership. I would appreciate more discussion around how MEMBERS consider, approach, and glorify God around these topics. I guess I would qualify as a average impact Christ follower who resigned membership from a good church who focused on personal holiness and the first half of God's greatest commandment. I am blessed to have found a Church home that teaches biblically on God's greatest commandment to love God AND one another. Bless you!!!

[@homeschoolingmadeeasy7798]

That letter to McCarthy is hilarious!

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

The dominant experience of kids is of being dismissed.....it has long been the idea kids should be seen and not heard. That isn't new.

[@Hogwa5hGaming]

"Phil Vicious" is a pretty good rapper name though. Hold onto that one.

[@Creddiam]

9:00 Isn't this Jonah all over again? Our sheets are amazing, thanks. Greetings from Enschede, The Netherlands

[@kristopherhayes1957]

It's interesting to learn about Generation Z since I am apart of that group. I'm 20 (going into 21 in 2021) and it's interesting to learn about my group. Also what is springtime?

[@BSNFabricating]

They didn't mention the other group of disappointed Millerites who switched and became Budweiserites.

[@karenallen7064]

When we lived downstate (pretty much the center) back in the late 70's we'd have lots of snow buildup during the winter. The roads had inches of ice buildup that we drove on to work in Bloomington every day. If we spun, I'd pray we ended up headed home. The road from the village we lived in to the nearest town (Clinton) would often only have one lane ploughed and the drifts were about 6 feet high on each side. (You didn't want to meet another car!) Illinois used to get crazy snow every winter!

[@mEandthEgamE]

I grew up in the flathead valley. That was a nice opening.

[@Lucky-r7y7w]

Would you guys consider adding chapters?

[@SandyKH]

Cerainly some discussions worth having and listening to. Really appreciate it.

[@dckmusic]

The Fuller Seminary comment might have crossed the line, but the rest is just funny. If we don't have humour, what have we got? I had to go investigate the Twitter exchange. It is sad that people just label anyone they disagree with as a "leftist" in order to dismiss their argument without any rebuttal. Several people in the thread basically argued that Phil (and his ilk) are "woke" so they are leftist. "Collectivism" is leftist and somehow anti-Biblical??? People confusing politics with the Bible. And these are Christian leaders?

[@onegirlarmy4401]

What about dolphins that find and disarm land mines?

[@Arearealty]

I think it’s important to understand We are called to judge within the body. If someone is wrong how else will they learn and grow. I do however, think it’s for those close in community with that person. Someone that does not know me personally calling me out on something (even if they are right and trying to do so lovingly) hits differently than a person I know. Also publicly is almost never the best place, but we seem to have become good at this. The danger in this is, are we making a public statement to actually correct, or build our own selves up. Something I am currently working through, is understanding Christian leaders are also still developing. It’s entirely possible for them to be wrong about something, but that doesn’t mean they are wrong about everything. If we are actively seeking and growing we should be able to examine things for ourselves. Ask how this holds up with scripture and what we know of God. If we blindly follow someone because they seem to be at a higher level than us, we can end up “riding on coat tails” and not have a personal relationship with Jesus. In the end it’s our posture not our performance that counts. ❤️ Love you guys and your openness to correction!

[@frithar]

I would very much like to see PV tackle a modern Screwtape Letters

[@frithar]

CS Lewis had little...pissing matches, for lack of a better term...with other Christians of the period. They were clever and worked with the ideas and no one had any doubt who the disagreement was with--very public back then.

[@birchtreefarm1]

So, do these "prophets" believe what they are saying, or are they deliberately lying and misleading their followers?

[@DJ5780]

I think it's a toxic mixture of belief and self deception

[@stargate2395]

Dude, you got wit......AND I LIKE IT!!!!!!!

[@kellyann3292]

Skye and the “big sky” comment 🤣

[@dkecskes2199]

"If you've experienced a crisis in the family, please press 9" I am applying an aloe-filled balm of applause to that well-deserved burn. It really does feel sometimes like as if eight separate options would come before that one, even in an automated receptionist system developed for a church. We can do better.

[@inquisitorlev8456]

Rightly ordered, the fallen material bends towards the spiritual ideal. It is the job of the church to teach and promote this. The opposites are untrue-that being secular option of the ideal bending toward the material and their being no spiritual ideal; or the gnostic, seeing the material is unimportant or profane. The Church is to live and teach the spiritual ideal. We cannot expect society to do the same and should have mercy and compassion towards them, even in the face of misunderstanding, discrimination, and even persecution. With all of these things, we are given an example, who is Jesus Christ. The problem comes from attempting to impose the ideal upon others in a partnership with evil. Making deals with corruption to delay abuse only leads to an aberration of Christ’s teachings and a quickening towards a more severe chastisement, which we in part deserve (due to our participation). You can have no will to power; no thought of control. You cannot serve two masters.

[@charlenewoods1408]

You had me at the jingle haaaaa

[@auadisian]

I see this INC's influence here in Jordan. Many young Christians here, mostly Pentecostal or influenced by Pentecostals and Charismatics, were very enthusiastic about Trump and repeated prophecies about him being inaugurated in January despite the defeat in November!! When I challenge them, they tell me that Biden and Harris are all for abortion and gay marriage...

[@ConnorMarc]

I'm in my mid 40s and "macho" has never been a word I thought about when thinking about or watching Trump. Neither back in the day, nor now. Whiner is more like it, particularly over the last few years.

[@1993greeksoldier]

I think many can think of macho as strong and powerful. It seems like people associate strength with being right and confidence in the knowledge of what is right. I agree Trump isn't strong but he is unfortunately confident. How do you think of macho as a term? I've always associated it with arrogance and a deep level of care about your image as "strong".

[@ConnorMarc]

@@1993greeksoldier there's a biblical principle of real and counterfeit. That comes to mind regarding this issue.

[@1993greeksoldier]

@@ConnorMarc that's fair but I think it would be somewhat difficult to get people to agree on what real macho is or should be. I prefer to think of it as either healthy or unhealthy in it's execution. I don't think this is too far from what your saying, that real macho would be macho in a godly way which would be heathy for the man who practiced it. When you get into questions of real vs counterfeit macho-ism the debate becomes a question about what does the word mean which I don't find very helpful. Do you feel what I have said is fair or am I missing something. Thank you for engaging in conversation with me :)

[@ConnorMarc]

@@1993greeksoldier yeah, missing the aspect of people's perceptions and ways vs God's ways. Remember the standard is the Bible, not man, the times, country nor culture. When any of those aren't in alignment, it's not God or His standards that should change. Right? 🙂 Edit: I don't believe that "machoness" is a character of God.

[@1993greeksoldier]

@@ConnorMarc certainly we should follow God's ways. I think of being macho as being masculine. Maybe that is a poor understanding of the term on my part. I wouldn't say it's a character of God either but God does have expectations of how people should act. Maybe being macho falls in line with God's expectations to some degree.

[@jordanmyers7593]

A few things! I love your podcast and your material of exposing Christian nationalism, white supremacy and racism within the church. It has been helpful to me and I consider myself more of a continuationost, or charismatic with a seat belt on.. 😂 Phil: I don’t believe all prophesy that is wrong makes someone a “false prophet”. There are OT examples of false/missed prophesy from true prophets. With the Trump prophecies there is a mixed bag of false prophets, false prophesies, and those who are wrongly thinking that they are a “prophet”.... To the guest on your show: I disagree with his “judgement” hypothesis. There are plenty of clear passages that speak of judgment. Especially within the church body. We can judge actions and still want the person to go to heaven someday.. I also disagree with his statement about “tweets” not mattering to God so much. Jesus said we will be judged by every idle word we speak. Look at the damage caused by soo many Trump tweets... Skye: You’re statement about God not telling the future... are you stating you don’t believe in the gifts today? Btw, love your With God Daily devos! Love you guys and your show. I care and so I’m asking for clarification. I’m not trying to be judgmental nor demeaning in anyway. I’m about halfway through this episode. I may comment more later

[@veronica944]

Hi! Phil! I’m actually a Seventh-day Adventist who appreciates a lot of the content you put out. But I’ve heard you mention Adventists a few times in your podcasts and I’m kind of curious as to why this church seems to fit into some of the narratives that you are talking about?

[@phillipjoseph1535]

I'm an Adventist, too, and a new listener. I have noticed that his framing of our denomination doesn't seem to be very representative of what it actually is

[@veronica944]

@@phillipjoseph1535 Yeah, that's true. If he would be willing to have a dialogue with us that would be great!

[@anthonycarter1528]

Coming from the much-maligned charismatic background, the biggest challenge I would pose to those not of our persuasion is to consider the works of Christ. The bible says that they (the apostles) would "do greater works than these because I go to my Father." My question is have you seen these greater works for yourselves? Many denominations believe that the spiritual gifts have passed on, but it's not so. They're still happening. The greater works were MEANT for all of God's children to experience, covet, develop in the fullness of time, and wield on God's behalf. There are tens of thousands of accounts of radical healings and deliverances (and yes, EVEN credible Prophecies) happening in all of those regions mentioned earlier in the show. In the Southern Americas, Africa, etc. And you know what happens when people see miracles, they believe! The love of God, expressed through signs and wonders cause men to repent! They grow hungry for the touch of God and the ones who are bringing that deliverance, healing, saving message leading to repentance are apostles and workers in their own right. This can (and certainly has) led to error, as men have at times begun chasing heavenly works instead of the face of their Creator, but I don't think that this misplaced hunger discredits God's works themselves. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance". I too have my concerns about the "Seven Mountains Mandate" and other claims from the INC, but I'd be remiss not to fully embrace the gifts of God that have come through earthen vessels like your Bethels and IHOPS. (These in particular, I respect as missional houses who have committed much of their lives to prayer, fasting and the stewarding of God's gifts and teaching).

[@robertw5749]

I hear what Skye is saying about fear driving prophecy in this specific network, but it is more than that. I actually have interacted with some of them in the past and it actually doesn't feel like it's fear based as much as it's rooted in ambition. Their prophecy really seems to follow their ambition as a means of justifying what their ambition is requiring.

[@dkecskes2199]

Some ideas for churches on reaching Gen Z: Echoing your "go where they are" idea, I fully agree. Make social media accounts on the platforms they use. Don't just use it for announcements and meme takes, actually engage with your students through it *daily*, even if it means having a team of trusted people taking turns managing the same account. And when it becomes safe again, literally go where they are. Show up to the school events many of them will be at, organize and help out with and sponsor community events they may be participating in. Youth ministry happens wherever Christian ministers and youth are, not just at the church campus. Quit playing "musical ministers" with them. When your church hires a youth pastor, the minimum for their time there should be seeing the current freshmen to their senior year. Yet a lot of churches can't even get one to stay a whole year, because youth ministers keep playing "bigger or better" with their careers. Relationships take time to build, and that is difficult when the contractors keep leaving the work sites half built. And consider hiring more women in youth leadership roles. Their perspective on life events is worthwhile and they can understand and reach out to all students in ways that male-only leadership will not be able to fulfill. Also, the amount of times in my youth I had to put myself in positions of potential danger because my youth minister (all were men) didn't want to look improper was more than none, and that is unacceptable but happens all the time in churches. Having a woman in leadership present would have changed that for the better.

[@sarawoods1450]

Just looked up your ‘nemesis’ woah my advice is ... if a dog barks at you do you get down on your hands and knees and bark back?” 😆🤔

[@sylviar3580]

Once again I do not fall into the norm of Pentecostal stereotypes, although I go to a Pentecostal church. I guess I am a liberal and I think Jesus could also be classified that way in some cases if indeed he could be classified at all! Paranoid Christians drive me nuts! You go, Phil!!!

[@rhondaleeaping9463]

Move the Caribbean bunny, you be fine here

[@dixieporter2960]

So, doesn't the Bible say when a prophet gets it wrong you know they are false.

[@willmorgan3088]

17:21 - I agree that the INC/NAR's audience is populist and that it therefore overlaps with Trump's, but I'm curious as to the reasons why. Why is there an overlap in the people who are SO attracted to Trump and SO attracted to the hyper-charismatic movement?

[@politereminder6284]

Good question.

[@lizardperson7265]

Indeed

[@scottylamm9673]

That’s a good question. I also wonder about the intersection of Christian nationalism and dominionism (of that’s the right way to say that) It seems the goals are similar but the motivations are different. There seems to be overlap though and I’m trying to wrap my head around the implications.

[@jeni688]

"That was clever of God."

[@lovemychacha]

AMEN SKY!

[@KaylaElizabeth_h]

I switched over to KZbin from Spotify to leave this comment. I go to churches who are deeply connected in this circle of Prophets. My pastor is mentored by Cindy Jacobs. I AM HERE TO SAY....IT'S 100% NOT ALL OF US. a lot of us who actually go to these churches don't think like this...BUT the ones that do are 100% THE LOUDEST. Personally the difference is so stark, I am seeing a divide in the church (evangelical) because of the insistance. It's quite frustrating when you see your friends go full tilt into this mindset that Trump in a figurehead for God and Covid-19 is a ruse to begin the new world order. I been called a sheep (lol aren't we supposed to be sheep lol) for not being anti-covid vaccine. Honestly when all this has been done, I am deeply reconsidering what Church circle i associate myself with. It feels like a divorce in my heart. I dunno if I should stay and try to reconcile with the division, or leave.

[@markdouglas8073]

Aside from false prophets rampant in extreme charismatic circles, it is difficult to find many churches in America that are not in some way compromised by Trumpism, white “Christian” nationalism, and the alternate reality concocted by FOX News (and their corporate sponsors, who preach fear and spew hysterical lies claiming Democrats, minorities, and people who love them are a Communist threat). If you know the cliché about boiling frogs, under Trump the temperature was turned up and the water is boiling now. If you don’t jump out, you will be boiled alive. Set your mind above, by holding to Scripture and the teachings of our Lord Jesus, not the Catholic nationalists on FOX, the demon-possessed ex-president, or any false prophets. Embrace your identity as a citizen of the Kingdom, which is multi-ethnic, and one in Christ, not American, and not based on lies. Faith, not fear, guides believers. Love, not hate, is our fruit. You will know them by their fruits.

[@jenniferplantenberg9606]

I went vegan in 2005. I had been in ministry for years and was at a conference and the speaker read from Isaiah 11:6-9 about what life will eventually look like when the branch from the stump of David appears. Animals will not eat each other or be dangerous to humans. When I look back in Genesis before the fall, there was no death, no eating of animals; humans and animals ate plants. That is what God intended. When I heard the Isaiah passage, I decided I did not want to wait for Christ's return or until heaven to participate in this; I turned to my husband and said I was going to be vegetarian. Then as I studied more about the treatment of animals for dairy and eggs as well as the bad health brought on by eating animal products, I decided to do my best to not use animals or that which came from animals for food or other products. God's creatures are often treated very poorly, and even when they are treated well for their life, they are often killed well before their time. And the need for animal sacrifice for our sins was removed by Jesus, the lamb of God. Instead of eating lambs like they did for Passover, Jesus gave a new command - to eat bread and drink wine instead of animal flesh and blood. For me as a follower of Jesus, how I, and how we, treat and take care of animals is immensely important, I believe. In regards to the monkeys, I don't know whether or not it has been proven, but the allegations are pretty sad. I believe that we should also care deeply about the treatment and well being of humans who work in industries that have a propensity to abuse their labor.

[@ScottRoche]

Is it me or did the guest say being woke and leftist like those were bad things?

[@rebeccathomas6858]

Chaokoh Chay-o-ko? 😂

[@kmillerdevx3]

To me it sounds most natural as CHOW-KO

[@glynnsurdivall2184]

i would like you to discuss theological implications of 1tim4-10 on one of your podcasts

[@charlietuba]

Sky(e) has his own cycling team.

[@onpartybusiness8]

31:44 Thank you for not using his name.

[@willmorgan3088]

I believe the more common (though unofficial) name for Independent Network Charismatics (INC) is actually the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). All of the people you named are luminaries in that group (and there are many others). It is indeed aberrant and sadly spreading across the globe, which makes its obsession with Christian nationalism in the US somewhat odd, though I suppose if you wanted to take over the world, you start with the most powerful nation. In addition to the Seven Mountain Mandate (7MM) and false prophecy, they are also associated with a ton of unverified stories of healings and miracles, including resurrections, heavenly visits, and the ability to control the weather, all, of course, completely without proof. I believe it qualifies as a cult. There is a ton of information out there about it, but if you want a quick rundown, try the documentary "American Gospel: Christ Alone". It may still be on Netflix, or you can find clips on KZbin.

[@tinekedijk7385]

The very much previous president ‘ s second initial is J. Doe the rel .right think it stands for Jesus?!

[@beatallmighty58]

Interesting conversation but unfortunately those of us who are on the left, we're doing the same thing, Trump is out of office and now everything is well with the world now OR at least the world now make sense. I hate that I'm guilty of this type of thought myself instead of putting my focus on Christ (who wasn't shock that Trump/Pence got into office or that Bidden/Kamala got into office) and how despite my own fears Christ is still in control!

[@1993greeksoldier]

I'm not wanting to say your wrong in any way just that my experience on the left hasn't lined up with what you described. I generally see progressives around me frustrated by the moderates who won't make large enough changes to really improve things and moderates who think the progressives are inviting public backlash if they do too much and make people uncomfortable with the amount of change occurring. I don't know if you have experienced that much? I might just be in some outlier group.

[@1993greeksoldier]

@Killin Sparker with all due respect you have not met me and don't currently have enough data to say what I am right or wrong about. good luck on your own journey sir

[@kimcowling3296]

“Our society has gone a little crazy with the let’s try everyone with respect and dignity.” I love your podcast but this is not the first time your evangelical bubble is showing on the issue of animal welfare.

[@Cyrribrae]

Haha, everyone has blind spots. Yea. I think bagging on these cultural issues has been an easy way to sort of draw an ingroup. But, there are plenty of people who might take the issue more seriously. The ridicule felt a bit much. I just fast forwarded past it after a minute of two lol

[@onpartybusiness8]

There was a puppy! 8:14

[@charlietuba]

And Roger Stone will be a stone

[@phillipjoseph1535]

Miller was not a prophet or even a faux prophet. He never claimed divine inspiration for his prediction, instead he based it on some incorrect calculations using numbers from passages in the Bible. In the late 18th century and morso in the 19th trying to pin a date on God's return was a very common theological undertaking, especially among eschatologists. The Advent Movement (of which the millerites were a part) were/are just people focused on the immanent coming of Christ. The Millerite publications and movement urged people to study their Bibles, be particular about the scripture, and think of God's return as something fast approaching. Its off-shoot denominations learned a lot from it and have made many positive contributions to Christianity. SDAs don't hide from The Great Disappointment at all. Here's what William Miller had to say about the Great Disappointment "Were I to live my life over again, with the same evidence that I then had, to be honest with God and man I should have to do as I have done. … I confess my error, and acknowledge my disappointment; yet I still believe that the day of the Lord is near, even at the door; and I exhort you, my brethren, to be watchful, and not let the day come upon you unawares.”

[@dpvisionary]

Glad you enjoyed Montana!

[@tinekedijk7385]

Hi redmouse in Enschede.....greetings from Oz .

[@lisa4berlin]

I can tell that you all are not used to talking about charismatic things. False prophecy doesn't make you a false prophet. The bible makes provision for 'weighing' prophecy in the new testament (1 Thes. 5:20-21 as well as in 1 Cor 14:29). Also, you say that these guys have no accountability. They might actually have some accountability in their structure and through relationship. From what I've heard from some of the prophets--they are addressing one another about the false prophecies. But it's interesting to hear a non-charismatic point of view. As a charismatic, I don't actually follow these prophetic voices though I do like their teaching--apart from the Trump prophecies. It's interesting though--I hadn't heard about the POTUS shield.

[@sharonfitch9015]

Not for male incontinence...LOL

[@anthonyhall7764]

How long did Adam and Even live on earth before they signed dieting 1 year are 1000,0000,0000 years When you can tell me that we can count how old the earth is ? Go with the Peace Love and Grace of Our Heavenly Father Elohim be with you Anthony Hall

[@breakingboardrooms1778]

This livestream has aged.

[@BuenasNoticiasdeIL]

Why is this so boring??? Please try to come up with a shorter podcast w less talking of random people that attacks everyone but yourself

[@bennunn9009]

Where is Christian in the Bible, it's not there the Bible speaks of Israelites, the Bible only talks about Israelites God chosen peoples, Israelites it shows all through the Bible. God has one people they are Israelites.