Pick your encounters

[@JakeofallTrades3]

Murphy 's Law - If something can go wrong, it will Jim Murphy's Law - If something does go wrong, it's Jim's fault

[@jimmurphy1591]

JakeofallTrades3 and now your stress is less

[@anthonynorman7545]

+

[@ncorva]

"Everything is my fault. My wife has taught me this" had me laughing hysterically.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Ignacio .Corva everyone knows it

[@Istari68]

"Everything is my fault." - internet gold

[@jimmurphy1591]

Jeff MacLeod and sadly true

[@paulhoover1768]

Great video Jim. Appreciate your time, wisdom, and perspective. I shared this with my three groups that I am DMing for.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Paul Hoover 3? Lats a lot of work! Hope they are fun groups

[@paulhoover1768]

Yes - all are great. 1x on Monday night @ 3 hours, 1x Thursday night @2 hours, 1 Friday nights @ 4 hours. (After kids (6) are in bed). One is pure home brew, one is straight module (Dungeon of Mad Mage), one is a hybrid (Started with Waterdeep - expanses out - you know the old theme: some old, something new, something borrowed, something blue). About 3-5 hours of prep (not including thinking about it). I love that you tie ya back to that “Book of Three” world mindset that is outside the box and that fantasy is more than rails. Keep up the great work!

[@paulhoover1768]

Monday night were a bunch of people I didn’t know (I am DMing for a DM and his friends - cause everyone knows that DMs don’t get much play time), Thursday is one group of friends, Friday - another group of friends.

[@rworrick8037]

So glad I found this channel, even if it is several years later.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Welcome. I’m just about to unleash the play test of our new set of rpg rules and Camoaign

[@j0nasbs]

Gibbering Mouthers are no joke. RIP Juliette Grabatul, Half-Orc Barbarian. :D

[@AsaBlackLightning]

Like OMG she totally died... ...Kurthak never recovered.

[@EricVulgaris]

There's nothing better then when the party encounters something like a gibbering mouther or some terrible entity and cry "ALL HOPE IS LOST" and begin to plan a fighting retreat... only to think through the fight, get creative, adapt, and overcome it. Honestly, this is where D&D shines the brightest as a game for me, you know? That creative problem solving aspect to this game is just nothing short of beautiful. Thanks for the video, jim! Looking forward to more!

[@igotsmeakabob]

Jim this is crazy, I think there was one 'umm' in that whole video. I am blown away by the improvement! Great video as always, and that Bulette pic at the end was heartwearming :D

[@jimmurphy1591]

Austin Hoffman OMG there Were tons of umm’s . But thank you and I’m working on it.

[@igotsmeakabob]

You're doing great. Love the CR discussion, it's always a tightrope to walk when a monster turns out to be a little rougher n' tougher than intended!

[@fitzmac8504]

Another class video Thanks , Jim Murphy ! Keep it up !! I will certainly blame you for everything ( even non-D&D related :) you are now my new wingman .

[@jimmurphy1591]

Fitz Mac wouldn’t have it any other way

[@puffinforest]

I'm going to be at Kingdom Con in San Diego as well. Maybe we'll bump into each other.

[@Mt_Xiji]

Puffin Forest, I love seeing your comments on other DnD channels; here and on Dingo Doodles. Those are the ones I've seen so far...

[@jek_si2251]

Hi Puffin!

[@lawrencekenworthy8918]

Curse of Strahd is a 5e module that, when run by the book, is extremely brutal. You're running into CR5 monsters regularly at level 2 or 3, and everything we did in that short lived campaign was deadly.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Lawrence Kenworthy vampires are fun. Was the game challenging or broken?

[@lawrencekenworthy8918]

@@jimmurphy1591 I agree vampires are fun, but we never got that far. It might just be the dynamic of our group, but it felt like we were helpless to do anything because every combat was extremely difficult (we did only have 3 players) and there was a general feeling of crushing hopelessness most of the time 😂. It just wasn't the campaign for us.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Lawrence Kenworthy that was likely problem since the module is written for five

[@SirLucien]

I think they should hire you!

[@Nick-dc6ix]

SirLucien you know who's fault it is they didn't hire him? Game Methuselah's fault.

[@VerumAdPotentia]

Right?!?

[@jimmurphy1591]

Nick Takaki see, now don’t you feel better knowing it was my fault

[@VerumAdPotentia]

XD

[@falfires]

#JustBlameJimMurphy

[@PBruno-cm3qh]

This is great discussion about the CR system. You should totally make a subset of videos highlighting specific monsters and how to run them and their abilities as tactically realistic as possible.

[@jimmurphy1591]

P. Bruno oh, you really do want to make it all my fault 👊🏻👿😈👊🏻👁🤬✌️

[@Daragausthedragon]

I love these videos!!!

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

Great video and discussion, Jim! AND for what it's worth, "I blame Jim Murphy" would make a GREAT hat... or T-shirt... or button(s)... or all of the above. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that when constructing or planning an adventure, one shouldn't bother much with the CR or any "short-cut" creature rating... Start with the basic "Hit Dice to PC level" and read through the general "nastiness" mechanics to figure out how porportionately you should throw creatures at the party. Maybe I'm missing something, but other than an "elder GM" teaching the technique to me back in the day, I haven't actually seen it in print or diagram... At least, I can't recall seeing the principle explained in a publication as I'm aware of. Maybe you're familiar with it... or maybe it's yet another tid-bit of D&D (or agnostic GM) doo-dah that I should write up and script out or diagram myself... (lolz) In any case, I do agree that at least some of the encounters in the game should be a Deadly or Damned Dangerous affair... It is kind of soft, for WotC to construct such ardent mechanics for death and then give all those saves and healing to basically defeat the whole "throw back of simplicity"... I mean, we (my Table) had the "cinematic setting" way back with original AD&D... When your HP hit 0, you rolled Con vs KO... IF /WHEN you were in negatives, you rolled twice, first for death, then for KO... AND at -10 it was Con-1, at -20HP Con -2, and so on, first for death, second for KO... The cinematic theme was "die hard" basically, so once you were in negatives, as long as you kept making those checks, you could keep swinging... Fatigue ate at you, technically, but you could keep going... BUT it was a gamble, because the very next check and you could DIE right there... no second chances, no take-backs, no roll vs. KO... dead... It was simple, eloquent, and still made for a HELL of a game even at first level... BUT it was a homebrew convention WHEN and ONLY WHEN the whole Table was on board. (same as anything else)... ;o)

[@jimmurphy1591]

gnarth d'arkanen sounds interesting. There are a few interesting systems but heard to get heard in the market

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

Well, Jim, this was more of a "rule of thumb" for GM'ing than exactly a "systemic machination" in so many words... As I said, I've yet (that I can recall) to actually see the method in print, but I haven't kept up on periodicals exactly, and don't have space enough for the plethora of books I do have (let alone so many more as would adequately represent RPG's)... laughably. It can work a little easier with an "HD to XP adjustment guide" like the section included in 2e's Ravenloft modules and supplements... among others. Basically, (the cheap-o version) was to calculate a monster by "HD rating" starting with it's "canon" Hit Dice and adding a HD for every "fantastic ability" or "magical feature rating"... SO a feature directly calculable as a first level spell equivalent (for instance) added one (1) Hit Die to the creature's rating... Relatively calculable to a forth level spell equivalent added four (4) and so on... The various forms (because I know more than Ravenloft had them) of the Hit Dice to XP Rating Guides added some details and complexity for a little bit of ease, as well as defining better what was intended as higher difficulties when there's no real equivalent to calculate (like "Undying" for example)... SO going to the rule of thumb, you generally don't want to pit PC's against monsters of equivalent or higher HD-rating at a one-on-one proportion, let alone out-number the PC's with such creatures without purpose... This helps a GM kind of avoid an outright TPK "out of the gate" or "on some random encounter" that was otherwise just intended as filler for XP... Let those kinds of battles come "with purpose" to the Players, the Party, the Narrative, just for something... Over time, as one gets comfortable with his Table of "regulars" he can tease the proportions out a bit, but with a little tabulation in prep, PC's can be proportioned fairly easily against considerably larger and more dangerous enemies with math related directly or fashioned from the Hit Die rating... Maybe I should put this in the list of "Videos I NEED to do"... I can always revisit the thing later (when I get better at presentation and drop a bunch of obvious "first season cringe factor"... lolz. In any case, I was (up to now, anyway) under the impression that "everybody knew and did it this way"... AND I have a general rule not to share stuff over the web that I wouldn't happily give away... SO if you do "get it" by all means tease it out and share. It's a decent (if not great) method... in my experience (as dubious as that sounds)... AND finally, I do love these videos... The more I've seen, the more I've enjoyed... hearkening back to the older school and some awfully dark and deadly themes! ;o)

[@alexp.4270]

I remember in Out of the Abyss I rolled a random encounter from the book that had a few skeletons and a Minotaur skeleton against a 2nd level party. They did manage to survive, but just barely.That entire book was filled with relatively tough fights. It was one of the best and most remembered games we played. :)

[@jimmurphy1591]

Trickier Hades hard won battles are the best

[@elgatochurro]

funnily enough, i ran a party for a single dungeon experience, lvl 2, 3 of them and they were killing skeletons no problem, i described in one encounter how they hear something rampaging down the hall of the seemingly endless skeletons... something running down the hall crunching and smashing things... the party tank/cleric went up and dodged, blocking the way well... uh... when the skeleton Minotaur showed up, killing the useless skeletons in his wake... all the build up apparently motived the Skeleton Minotaur to crit on his normal roll 3 times in a row... not only that but every player saw he was well able to one shot them with the crit's average damage output... the cleric continued to dodge in front of him and wasted every crit the minotuar had... that was not only the end of the session but the players didnt ever go back to finish it :P

[@cowpercoles1194]

Hey, Tales of Yawning Portal features a 5th edition conversion of C2 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. It has *both* a will-o-wisp AND a Gibbering Mouther. The PCs have a 1 in 3 change of bypassing the wisp, but need to get past the mouther to escape the dungeon. It's in a dangerous trap room, which the mouther makes much more dangerous, if the PCs are foolish enough to poke it with a stick. It is for a 5th level party of 4 PCs though.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Cowper Coles yes, but not for first to third

[@nonwashable9540]

Some excellent points and context for how combat difficulty has sort of evolved over the years. To build on those I feel like the wider consideration also falls on the entire encounter design by the DM outside of just choosing which monsters to include. If you decide that it's time for your party to face a very difficult fight or simply include to option to, how have you designed the terrain? Are they just locked in a room with this thing until either the monster or the party is dead? Do they have a chance to escape? Are there environmental things they can use to their advantage? What creative victory conditions might be available to them? In my current campaign the second or third creature they encountered was a Gelatinous Cube set into a very long set of stairs leading down to their first dungeon. When I decided to put it in I knew ahead of time that they had several good options of how to deal with it and they were only a party of four. The biggest thing in their favor was that the cube couldn't move from it's place in the stairs. To start the fight the warrior who was leading didn't see it and stepped into it so they had to fight their way through its pseudopods to drag him out. From there they had the option of going back and finding a different way, charging ahead and away from the trap/creature or figuring out how to kill it. They managed with some cunning and desperation to kill it. It's now dead form drained through a grate beneath. Not satisfied with nearly dying one of the group looked into the pit and saw something in the grate. They set a rope and lowered him down so he could grab it, in the nasty muck of other dissolved adventurers and god knows what else he drew out an ornate box that inside contained a Ring of Regeneration. A moment later he heard a click and acid began to pour into the open pit, filling it to the brim. He escaped, a little singed but better for it. They took a moment to recoup and examine what they had found and then pressed on. I was incredibly proud with how they handled the situation. I guess what I'm saying is that Challenge Rating is only the beginning of a DM's work. There are many, many other things to consider that affect the overall difficulty of a battle. If you lock a group in a tight room with a Gibbering Mouther then you probably intend for them to die barring an incredible run of luck. It certainly comes with experience but it bears mentioning that combat in D&D is more than a boxing ring, embrace the environment and encourage your players to look elsewhere than their character sheets. A whole new world will open up for both of you!

[@jimmurphy1591]

Non Washable really well said and your adventure sounded nasty.

[@nonwashable9540]

Thank you! Thanks a hell of a compliment! I don't personally like killing characters but I do try to embrace the danger of the lives that adventurers choose. If they aren't battered, bloodied and exhausted at the end of a dungeon, was it really worth it?

[@jimmurphy1591]

Non Washable 👊🏻👿😈👊🏻👁🤬✌️

[@Singeslayer1]

HMGS! Hot damn, I did not think anyone outside of my small community knew about it. Historical games certainly are some of the best miniature gaming.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Robert Effinger I agree

[@Flintwyrm]

Look up "Ooze there? " adventure league module. It's a tier 1 (lv 1-4) game with an encounter that has 2 gibbering mothers in 2 separate occasions.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Flintwyrm what’s the mortality rate?

[@Flintwyrm]

@@jimmurphy1591 very high they also throw in multiple grey oozes, 2 mimics, a black pudding, 2 gelatinous cube. An ochre jelly. And a high level wizard with tons of temp hit point. It's really intense.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Flintwyrm wow, sounds nasty

[@Flintwyrm]

@@jimmurphy1591 nasty but we made it with the help of our DM that lets us think and play out of the box like D&D zero. I really enjoy your content and also DM myself thanks to yours and Matt Colville's amazing advise. I really love that Medusa Mambo. any other interesting dungeon mechanics like that I could steal? XD

[@jimmurphy1591]

Flintwyrm I’ll do more

[@ThePoisonSword]

I'd be interested in those critical charts from the Mines of Moria. It could be a way to make criticals a bit more fun. Maybe start off by using it when the players crit a monster to make them aware of it, and then start using on the players after they start seeing just what a crit can do.

[@jimmurphy1591]

ThePoisonSword Roll Master is full of charts for damage vs AC. The critical damage is in the charts

[@ddesouz6]

This video came at the perfect time! I’m in the process of putting together a side track encounter out of dungeon magazine issue 65, page 50, called reflections. It’s an encounter where a will o’ wisp leads the party to a gibbering mouther. The party I’m running this for is a 3 member 4th level group so I was going to “monkey with the monsters” as matt cloville says, due to the fact that the CR rating is so low. But when I started working out the encounter all I kept thinking was...”how in the heck are they going to survive this!” Im really excited about running this encounter even though I’m scared it could easily be a tpk. I don’t roll behind a dm screen either...(insert evil laugh here)....

[@jimmurphy1591]

ddesouz6 well they are leveled up, good luck 👍

[@animusnocturnus7131]

Well, at level 4 the party has a couple of resources that they can throw around, so they'll probabbly have no real difficulty here. Also, the Gibbering Mouther really isn't that tough of a fight, if done right. And I think that this is the thing that this monster really is in there for. Teaching the players that not every fight should be them charging as a group against a monster. The Gibbering only affects creatures within 20 ft. Within 10 ft the ground is difficult terrain and might reduce the speed to 0. It has a ranged attack that affects creatures up to 20 ft away from it. And it has a speed of 10 ft, 20 if it does nothing else than charging at the party. As long as the party uses ranged weapons and stays at least 45 feet away from the creature, they're perfectly fine. The thing can't even hurt them.

[@VerumAdPotentia]

"As long as the party uses ranged weapons and stays at least 45 feet away from the creature, they're perfectly fine." You clearly haven't met my group. XD

[@animusnocturnus7131]

@ VerumAdPotentia care to elaborate?

[@ddesouz6]

VerumAdPotentia the encounter is going to take place in a small underground cave with a 30’ radius, so in order to evade the gibbering effect they will have to stay glued to the outside of the cave walls. Moving along the circumference of the cave will be much more difficult than cutting across its diameter (which the mouther will be doing). I’ll also have treasure hoards scattered around the room to bait the pc inwards. If I kill any players I’ll make sure to blame it on Jim. As a matter of fact, I think we should start a new movement #blameitonjimmurphy hahahaha

[@pzokz]

Argh balanced encounters... are my idea of something that should only be found in a hell universe.

[@jimmurphy1591]

pzokz I agree

[@hangarflying]

I think the other factor that goes into this discussion is the complexity of the rules for character generation. 3e and later games have complex rules with a lot of moving parts. So part of it is it becomes cumbersome to run multiple characters. Also, because it takes more time to make these characters, players have moved to the mindset that character death is an unwelcome element of the game because it is disruptive. The rules have evolved to reflect this: keep low level characters alive by making healing more accessible. Potions, spells, natural healing, etc. So the paradigm has shifted from lots of weak characters to few strong characters. And the encounter design concept has shifted from an aesthetic of verisimilitude to balanced encounters appropriate to a character level.

[@jimmurphy1591]

hangarflying that was fine in 4th, where you started as a hero. But 5th is a throwback, so games should become more deadly or what is the challenge? It becomes TV series where everyone knows the hero’s will make it.

[@hangarflying]

Jim Murphy I agree. I want the lethality aspect/survivor horror aspect of gaming, and that’s why I’m leaning towards using an older game. Why try to make a newer game fit into a style of play it isn’t designed for, when an older game designed around that paradigm works just fine.

[@wanderinghistorian]

@@jimmurphy1591 I've played D&D at all lethality levels. I've had fun with all of them. All have merits and demerits. I've had fun with all levels of play. As DM I can run the gambit from lethal all the way to care bears. I usually DM whatever the players want most. I think hangarflying has a good point with the complexity of characters. If 5e characters took 5 minutes to make like OD&D, then losing one would be no big deal. When you spend a long time carefully crafting a character, it can be very demoralizing to lose them. In lethal D&D, or what I call "blood n guts" D&D, I rarely ever craft a backstory other than a single, simple motivation. (i.e. I need to earn lots of treasure to buy my brother out of prison.) I make the quickest name I can think of (Alfiron was what just came into my head) and I usually pick a simple class with high survivability (i.e. no spellcasters). In non-lethal D&D, I'll usually make squishy characters, be more daring with design, and have detailed stories and motivations. I'm in this for the long haul after all. As for the challenge of less-than-lethal D&D, it's success. For example, I find my job very challenging despite the fact that my life is not in danger every time I go into work. My reputation is at risk, my money is at risk, and those are very important to me. It is the same in non-lethal D&D. Cheers!

[@jimmurphy1591]

Jason what ever floats your boat! I think people should play as they wish, I just give my opinion for what it is worth

[@patchfile]

Pros from Dover. I got that reference.

[@jimmurphy1591]

patchfile good job Hawkeye

[@nosdarb]

I will 100% blame you for all future TPKs, or other inconveniences at the game table. Thanks for that.

[@jimmurphy1591]

nosdarb all part of the service

[@elgatochurro]

You shouldn't apologize for this, the game was originally meant to include player death, something I've seen lacking in my games

[@jimmurphy1591]

elgatochurro thanks

[@mikegould6590]

CR for 5E is wonky. A DM should really examine every creature and ask themselves: How does this creatures damage output compare to my player characters? Does that creature have a "remove from play" ability (petrify, paralysis, something that reduces a character to 0hp, something the kills the character on a failed save)? If so, their CR is likely too low. Is that creature immune to a common attack? Resistant? Better consider their hit points to be doubled for the CR, and the CR probably has to go up. Does the creature have a special movement that affects combat? Do they fly, walk through walls, burrow beneath their feet, or have some sort of planar shift? I promise you, this is IMPORTANT. It means a creature doesn't have to concern itself as much with the terrain, and removing the terrain as a challenge in a battle is game-changing. Ask any soldier. Is it an outdoor wandering monster? if so, it's up to the players to use their judgement. You are, after all, in IT'S home territory. Does this creature have a special ability that procs (activates) special abilities in allies? For example, Sahaughin can command sharks and gain Advantage when someone is wounded - and so do Sharks. This is a death spiral that will eat through hit points literally and figuratively. Can the monster use it's innate abilities to the fullest? Will that giant not just bash with a club, but will topple trees and building ON TOP of the PCs. Will the giant grab a player character and throw them straight up as if they were a boulder? Consider the falling damage on that one. You're looking at potentially 20d6 for a CR 5 monster Will a Dragon fight fair? You bet not. A Red Dragon will fill corridors and windows with it's breath weapon, or strafe the tops of buildings, setting roofs flags, curtains, furniture, floorboards aflame. You'll cook alive inside. A Green will fill an entire tower with poisonous gas, slaughtering all how try to escape. It will drop boulders from massive heights. A burrowing dragon should sap a castle's walls and bring the structure down. A swimming dragon should attack ships from below, sinking navies before a fight starts. They're int he title of the game for a reason. They are NOT boring sacks of hit points. If they are - that's on the DM, not the monster. Shapeshifting monsters can be anyone, anywhere. Their CR does not reflect all of the collateral damage created by the chaos of pretending to be someone, and then starting clan wars because of assassination, theft or intrigue. An entire nation could go to war when a Hag poses as a princess being captured by a rival, or a Doppleganger general commands "his" troops to attack an innocent village. CR takes little of this into consideration. A DM should, though.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Mike Gould really well said. This should be a forward to the monster manuals.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Oops, I should have said preface

[@oldcontemptible]

I remember going through a TSR module (AD&D) with 5-7 lvl characters and having our butts kicked by a 1e gibbering mouther. I haven’t met the 5e variety, but it, if it’s anything like its predecessor, it’s a good recipe for TPK if you put it against 1st level characters.

[@jimmurphy1591]

oldcontemptible a Sub Reddit conversation has started. That you just need to stay away and range weapon the creature. I love this community.

[@JonEnge]

I always make my encounters deadly in 5e. It's the only way the players seem to have fun... or at least I'm having fun!

[@needmorecowbell6895]

The Mouther's move at the speed of a traffic cone. Either kill it from distance or bypass it.

[@jimmurphy1591]

NeedMore Cowbell works good if you can, dungeon small space or in water. Ambush, etc. or any number of other set ups. It’s not a world beater, but tough for CR

[@needmorecowbell6895]

@@jimmurphy1591 They're a tough out because so few spells affect INT. But they don't have the mobility to get out of AOE's and they're as dumb as a pet rock. Have it go after a minor illusion (world's slowest high-speed chase). Mother's never going to pass that investigation check. #FishingForMouthers #Got Steak?

[@Allatar666]

Some monsters have disturbingly low CR for what they do, indeed. But i would argue that the game is pretty easy and forgiving compared to older editions. Death is hard to happen in this edition and if characters have rolled stats, mosters start to be a joke rly. Look at the ACs! They are so low. Most CR 2-5 monsters have AC 11-14 ... a character of that lvl range has more than 60% chance to his on an attack.

[@jimmurphy1591]

I would agree that the games are much more forgiving

[@veng3r663]

A Gibbering Mouther wouldn't be quite so bad. For in my homebrew game Bards of Level 4 and higher becomes more & more resistant to various sound-related attacks. Also in a worst-case scenario I could always just have one of my Dream Weavers cast either a Level 2 Sound Shield spell, a Level 4 Hush spell, or both...

[@jimmurphy1591]

Veng3r yes, at fourth level. Now try it with a 1st or 2nd level party in a confined underground

[@veng3r663]

I wouldn't do that. For the way I work the Encounter Level formula in my homebrew is taking the monster in question's overall power compared to that of lower Level grouping of a team of 4 Player characters. For example a Cave Imp would be considered an EL 1 difficulty challenge for them whereas a Skelter is a vastly more deadly Undead spell-casting foe of EL 4... www.sacredwiki.org/images/Sacred_2/Bestiary/Undead/UN-SkeletonMage.jpg

[@The1wsx10]

i started a 1 session adventure (ofc they never got through it all - maybe next game) and honestly it was very lacklustre. very tame battles, 0 loot (yes, actually 0 loot). no npcs except for the mission giver. i decided i wanted more drama. so im using the same enemies, but doubling the number. i also gave them an npc adventurer and added items - the adventure actually says the animated armour/sword disappears into nothing! looking at the adventure there was really no reason to enter any of the rooms apart from listening to their description and getting attacked. even with this higher risk/reward, the party was rarely at risk at all. this isn't an official adventure, and its only lvl 1. but in all my experience, it seems like they have tried to prevent player death as much as possible. im a murder hobo at heart - i want a challenge and i want cool items. maybe in the next adventure i DM ill get the players to run 2 characters. or maybe give each of them an npc to run as a 2nd character (since PCs are pretty complex). i think that would really bulk up the party and bring some drama into the adventures.

[@GameNubQuin]

I have heard the Volo's Guide monsters have less to complain about CR-wise. I agree with Jim's preference for deadlier games but I definitely have encountered many players who simply do not want to play that way.

[@aspenryder5091]

I think it's probably a good idea, if you don't have a vast amount of experience with what is or isn't hard for a party to deal with, to just pick whatever looks cool and makes sense for the location, and then when your party is coming extremely close to TPK, to roll some dice and say "You guys should retreat right now. It's about to kill you all, and if you're okay to roll a new character, you can stay, but otherwise, you should run- right now." It's an idea, anyway.

[@rickeymariu1]

More vids like this!

[@jimmurphy1591]

rickeymariu1 ya trying to find the sweet spot

[@Sleepyby]

Great video as always, Jim! I'm curious to know your thoughts regarding the roll of things like character backstories and personal story arcs have had on the evolution of Dungeons and Dragons. OD&D is, compared to other editions of the game, fairly simple mechanically speaking. It's not long before AD&D shows up and increases the complexity of the game exponentially. That shift seems to mirror a shift in the mentality of the player base at that time that wanted to feel special or heroic at the start instead of the end of their character's life. I'm not sure if I am communicating my question clearly enough, but essentially I'd like to know what factors you think led to the trend of increasing rules complexity and trend of character importance in the evolution of D&D. Characters lives used to be very cheap, which is clearly not the case anymore. What are your thoughts on this as both a player and a DM?

[@jimmurphy1591]

Sleepy Hendrickson this could be a long discussion. Character backstories are food building the campaign. With luck and skill they both develop into a memorable epic. Rules are a much larger and longer story. The market is much larger with players always looking for the next great game. Even the best games have a limited shelf life. I do not know if more flash and complexity or simple elegance makes games better. I have been a victim of both. I fell in love with EPT, Runequest, MERP but struggled to get anyone to play. So I played games I liked less because it is what my friends would play. It is a constant balancing act. There is so much more to you question but we keep discussing this over time. There is a lot to think about.

[@Sleepyby]

I couldn't agree more that there is a lot to mine from this topic! I think all of these aspects are woven together, encounter balance and how it has changed is part of that, too. I look forward to this discussion continuing!

[@willwestiv4805]

Jim Murphy! Have you been panhandling? I see your cardboard sign in the back there... lol

[@jimmurphy1591]

Will West IV Ya! No will hire an old worn out Game Methuselah. So I have to work the streets to survive.

[@willwestiv4805]

Jim Murphy nooooooo.... You have the admiration of so many in our community. Keep looking and an opportunity will present itself. I just found your channel a couple of days ago and I'm so happy you are making videos. You don't need a "handout," just a "hand up." You've got a lot to offer the world, even as old and crusty as you are. 😂

[@jimmurphy1591]

Will West IV I just need a dolla fo a jug. Glad you found me, hope my info is of some help! Game On

[@seanhillman1016]

It is interesting, the first DMGuild adventure I put up, for 1st and 2nd level characters has a CR 2 creature in it (no spoilers! lol). It fit the story for the module best and it will be a great boss fight. We definitely played with two characters though as a DM I did not like that as much, but it worked out alright. Whenever we played Spelljammer, everyone had an A and B character to switch out and have fun with. I definitely think bosses and mini bosses should be more CR than the party can handle, because if experienced players sit down they will have a much easier time with it. And players like being scared, they like the adrenaline rush of fight vs. flight.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Sean Hillman CR 2 is fine. Just need to know your group

[@willmason3575]

I think the CRs are right on and they dont mean jack. I have seen a kobold (straight from the book) take out half the party. I have also seen PCs take on CRs way beyond the party level and come out victorious and relatively unharmed. Advice, do good leg work before you enter a dungeon and be prepared to have your @ss handed to you.... it is bound to happen

[@jimmurphy1591]

Will Mason it’s just a best guess

[@TaberIV]

Put the video on while working, at about 5:27 I checked the date and laughed out lout

[@jimmurphy1591]

My humor is often missed

[@VerumAdPotentia]

Howdy Jim. Happy Easter. Great video. How much does blaming you for a TPK cost me? That's it. I'm hand writing a 56 page (single-spaced on both sides) manifesto on why Steve Jackson should absolutely hire you as game-designer/scape-goat for the re-release of TFT! Seriously Jim, I think you should look into ways you could monetize your videos. I think people of our generation have a hard time seeing making videos as being worth getting paid for, and for myself, I have a hard time asking people to pay me for something like that, I guess because it feels like begging, but consider: You make educational, entertaining, and informative videos, and are already nearly at the 2,000 subscriber mark (myself included of course). Thus, you are producing "entertainment", and if people don't find it merit worthy, they will not pay you. If they do, they will. Allow the market to determine the worth of your videos instead of under/devaluing them yourself. There is nothing shameful in that, and indeed, you may find that if you allow others to determine the worth of your efforts, you may just find that others value them at a higher rate than you might have thought. Not me of course. Not because your videos don't merit pay, but simply because I'm a cheep old bastard. Thanks for another enjoyable 13 and a half minutes.

[@jimmurphy1591]

VerumAdPotentia all part of the service 👊🏻👿😈👊🏻👁🤬✌️

[@VerumAdPotentia]

XD

[@Blindeyes1431]

I play a lot of 4E and that is a very encounter oriented game and PC are basically super heroes. When I DM and purposely make a super hard encounter, I basically spell it out to my players that it'll be tough and they know that they need to frontload the encounter with dailies and action points. I really love that extra power players can throw out because it makes them feel great after a tough fight but simultaneously adds drama to the following journey because they feel vulnerable without that cushion. If you get past the immersion breaking of having things called powers, I find that games of 4E run far more fluidly where players aren't constantly seeking long rests because they ran out of cool things to do. When I've run 5E I totally understood why players wanted to long rest after every fight because they only get to do their awesome class abilities once or twice and if they whiff it, it feels horrible and a total waste because now all they do is make the same weapon attack or cantrip round after round. Even worse when you introduce enemy spellcasters because you can just funnel them in with fresh spells and just instagib someone with a upcast Inflict Wounds on a poor level 2 or 3 character. God forbid you crit with that. So with all that being said, I don't get into situations where there is some slaughter of a fight unless I meant it to be. Even with bad rolls, 4E is pretty forgiving what with all the reserves players can conjure up in times of need. To me it's like the 'instant talent' of encounter building, where you can wildly stack the deck and come off as a great DM, though I will admit it is rather easy to make trivial encounters if you aren't fluid with how the numbers should work. But I'd rather have my players feel like the 300 Spartans than some World of Warcraft trash mobs thinking, "How are we the heroes when this one guy just stacked us up and broke us over his knee?" I just realized I gushed over 4E this whole time... oh well, I already wrote it. Also, did Matt patent the "Blame Jim" argument? It sounds like an inside joke, even though it's April Fools.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Blindeyes1431 nah that’s my wife’s patent. I thought 4E was the best D&D, I am sad they dropped all their computer support for it.

[@Blindeyes1431]

I whole-heartedly agree. I ended up using Maptools with a ton of clever macros and a robust framework that my group has honed for the last few years. It works fantastic once a token is made but it takes some time manually typing each power. Like I just made a Water Weird solo for the Rahasia module I'm going to run and it took me about 15 minutes - kinda a pain, though some time was given to inventing its powers. I'd love to make some sort of online tabletop for it, however I'm only familiar with the Unreal Engine which would be a moderately taxing application for computers to use in whatever form I make it. I also know nothing about the legal issues I might come across in making it 4E integrated.

[@DrunkenWizardBattle]

I need to look at having my guys bring more cannon fodder or hirelings... I've capped my game at 4 players just so we don't spend all evening in a single encounter, but it's definitely true that few pcs makes combat a lot more high stakes and swingy... anything you do as the DM to alter the action economy can be devastating and really snowball in a single turn if you're not careful. There's also too much tension when it comes to death... like that investment is good but its unworkable, I find myself wanting to pull punches because that's a big loss when a player has their sole characters storyline gets cut short and they have to rebuild all that with a new PC

[@jimmurphy1591]

DrunkenWizardBattle well said, I wish there was a simple solution. But it’s sometimes a life mirror and choices are difficult.

[@MathewNadzam]

In my games the cr rating seems to be low. A group of 4 players at level 10 killed the kraken.

[@matthewedon]

Not sure if you've played it, but I think Dungeon Crawl Classics had an interesting take on playing multiple characters. Each player makes four Level 0 characters, and the ones (if any) that survive move on to 1st Level.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Matthew Edwards seen it but never played it. Few others have told me about it, thanks

[@evidicus]

I personally almost never throw a party at a single CR equivalent monster. It’s generally pretty boring, but it’s also hard to balance. If it’s too easy, it ends up being a giant bag of hit points that takes multiple rounds to chew through with no dramatic tension. Too hard, and those single creatures can do enough damage to take a PC out in a single hit. This can quickly spiral downward into a TPK. So for a CR 2 gibbering mouther, I may not even pull one out till the PCs are 5th level. I’d likely treat it as hostile terrain for a larger fight taking place near it.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Jason Shamblin lots of goblin heh?🐸🐸🐸

[@evidicus]

Jim Murphy - lots of 1/8, 1/4 and 1 CR creatures and humanoids our there! Something as simple as a Tribal Warrior can be re-skinned multiple ways. I also really like using minions from 4e in my 5e encounters.

[@UnionJackstones]

YES!!! D&D WAS supposed to be deadly!! Not anymore :-(

[@jimmurphy1591]

Mike Zimmerman tastes change

[@UnionJackstones]

True. I'm finding it difficult with regard to how the contemporary game is played to be challenged these days. At my age I may have to re-evaluate how I spend my discretionary time. I miss the fun of fearing death in a rpg. I dig your channel Jim. I remember when Colville interviewed you as you two sat on some picnic table discussing D&D. I found it riveting, but then again I'm a D&D freak. I'd like to be DMed by you , or someone that DMs in your style.

[@ReinoudvanReekumナウト]

I find it hard to judge if this was an April Fool's joke...

[@jimmurphy1591]

Reinoud van Reekum ?

[@ReinoudvanReekumナウト]

It's a Dutch name, don't think too much behind it. You see, you posted this on April 1st, so I'm wary when it comes to videos with advice on such things as it might be a prank. Plus, you mentioned that CR is but a suggestion and that dungeons used to add high-level monsters in low-level dungeons just for the heck of it, but I can't verify if that's true as I don't know how the difficulty of AD&D worked. I do know that AD&D was hard-core but to put an obviously deadly monster in a dungeon somewhat baffles me. Combined with the statement of "I can be a scapegoat and blame it all on me." tends to make think this video is meant to be somewhat controversial just to see who will be 'fooled' by it. I'm not sure, so that's why I'm thinking that it might be an April Fools joke... or perhaps not...

[@jimmurphy1591]

Reinoud van Reekum O.K. I understand. Your safe, just a Game conversation

[@jimmurphy1591]

Reinoud van Reekum by the way, that is a very cool 😎 name.

[@ReinoudvanReekumナウト]

Thank you. You seem to be fond of it as you keep repeating it. :3

[@nickp4173]

I think the level of "lethality" greatly depends on the kind of game you're running. If you are running a hex crawling, dungeon-delving, hack n slash game; crack it to 11! But these days, many players are interested in running (or have only really been exposed to, thanks to Critical Role) a narrative, story-based, character-driven kind of game. If that's the case (and it's fine if everyone wants to play that way) then lethality SHOULD be low. It's hard to invest in characters deeply with a high body count.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Nick P I have had and think you can have both. But I believe you hold the popular opinion on RPG campaigns. I think it has always been the popular opinion and I am in the minority.

[@nickp4173]

Not disagreeing that you can't have both. I guess it's pretty normal these days for people to not have exposure to old school stuff. Though I can't really claim "old school". I'm only 24 and started gaming in 2006 with a SW:RPG and then D&D 3.5. But still, I firmly believe that it's all down to taste for things like this. Hard to do it "wrong". I appreciate the reply, btw! Enjoying the channel. I LOVE hearing about the history of the game and philosophy of gamers who have been at it much longer than myself.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Nick P you are absolutely right, it is up to your taste. What you group loves is the best. I just like to add the counter point. It’s not like my bloated ego and fat head makes me think I’m right or anything.

[@nickp4173]

Points and counterpoints are all we have in discourse. Keep it up!

[@Gregorz]

I never really understood the hate CR gets. It's not perfect but I don't think any kind of CR system ever good be. The debate comes from where to put things, CR 5 or 6 etc, and I don't think they should ever simplify monsters to easily fit into either category because that would make things more bland and beige. It's fun to have monsters for example that are low HP but deadly - which could be super easy or super hard depending on how the dice roll and your individual party. You might kill/disable it with a single spell before it gets a chance to attack, or it attacks first and kills/disables your wizard. Some groups hate that, but it's the job of the DM to understand the monster. The CR rating is just there to be like "oh, maybe this will be good?" and it's the DM's job to read and actually say "yes, okay, that's good", or "No, it's too strong for my party". Without CR you'd be looking through hundreds of monsters instead of dozens. I think the thing to keep in mind for level 1 adventurers is that CR2 is literally double their level. It would be like putting a CR20 monster up against a level 10 party. Personal opinion, I think part of the problem is how crazy HP scaling from levels is. It never made much sense to me that a level 2 adventurer is almost double as durable as a level 1. I mean, you're supposed to already be a seasoned professional at level 1. I would prefer it if HP started higher and scaled less, or be entirely based on Constitution and not level, the way some other RPGs do it. But I also haven't run any numbers. Mostly it's just a "feel" thing. It doesn't "feel" right that your HP starts so low and multiplies so dramatically. But that's just me being an opinionated DM, I don't know what others think.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Greg the Grey it's more of an art than science. You know your party, book doesn't

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

It's all fine and good to say DnD was always meant to be deadly but no one wants to spend two hours creating a character just to die two sessions in. Especially if what they're playing is 5e where they were almost outright told by the rules that they should care about this avatar they've made for themselves. With so much buy in on the player's part, it's totally reasonable for them to expect encounters within their weight class. Honestly this is why I'm not super in love with 5e. Every in game mechanic pushes you towards mitigating risks which makes for really anti-climatic and unheroic adventures.I can never in my mind wrap my head around the local lord ever needing the PCs when it'd be cheaper to just throw his own knights at the problem.

[@jimmurphy1591]

Julian Francisco this has been a sore spot for me my whole gaming career. Many if not most “players “ feel as you do. But you two hours pails in comparison to the tens if not hundreds of hours put in by the DM. Not to mention the story line and campaign that often gets ignored. I never plan nor hunt to kill characters. But if your characters death pushes the story forward and adds to the drama then you are part of the drama. I have had many notability characters due that made our campaigns greater. Think about your part in the story and not just your character and your two hours

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

I think you're totally right. The GM gets a really raw deal whatever the character creation rules are

[@VerumAdPotentia]

I don't see 5e mechanics pushing me as the DM towards mitigating risks for the players, but then, perhaps that is simply because my style leans more towards the risk-to-reward ratio style. If the party knows the DM is going to save them from themselves, they tend to stop thinking tactically, whereas, since most of my older players know I don't like to kill their characters, but will if they do something particularly stupid, they tend to try to keep me from being in a position to save them, because they know the odds of it happening are slim. ...and besides, I'm partial to the Matt Colville practice of capturing PCs and selling them into slavery, or holding them alive to keep the meat "fresh" until it is time to invite one of them to dinner.

[@bhatfield1417]

Comment

[@andrewdixon9740]

When next i TPK my 5E group, you are so getting the blame :)

[@VerumAdPotentia]

XD

[@jimmurphy1591]

Andrew Dixon don’t you feel better now 😸

[@rhyspuddephatt]

imgur.com/a/075V1 if you want to ensure player survival, take 2 from the cr your going to throw at your players, also get them some hot coco and a backrub... when i started my campaign i took matt colville sage advice and informed my players that: This world is real and dangerous, I will be surprised if you all make it to level 5.

[@jimmurphy1591]

rhyspuddephatt 👊🏻😈👿👊🏻👁🤬✌️