Pickleball! Which Style Of Play Wins Out In This 4.0 Gold Medal Match? Learn By Watching Others!

In this video a gold medal game played at the 4.0 level. The teams take opposite approaches to try and take home the gold. Which approach wins out?
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[@linsu2854]

Great topic. I get the "playing tennis on the pickleball court" a lot in my rec play. Surprised that Jessica made it into a 4.0 gold medal match. She is less skilled at pickleball than some of our 3.5 players here

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

I don't know where you live. This game was played in Medford, Massachusetts. Maybe the level of play there is not as good as in Florida, Texas, California, Arizona.

[@linsu2854]

@@pickleballpick-apart9787 I live in California. The level of play varies depending on city but of the places near me has a good number of strong players

[@mooremathewj]

I’ve had the opportunity to see plenty of “tennis style” play at my local rec courts too. I personally think it’s fine because the players are having a great time. I’ve never actually seen those same players soliciting a game outside their group of friends. The tennis players that do become interested in playing pickleball typically transition to pickleball very well. They quickly understand much of pickleball is the opposite to tennis. Eventually they become very enjoyable to play with after they check their tennis racket and ego at the gate and not the paddle rack.

[@Vanessa-pe2xs]

I think there is a misconception that "banging" is bad, "dropping" is good. However, that's not the case. Neither strategy will win if utilized incorrectly. The team that lost did so because of a multitude of critical errors. Such as backing off the kitchen, inability to reset, unforced errors etc, etc. Most top pros are power players' "bangers", the difference is they understand strategy, correct court positioning, and how to expose/exploit opponent's weaknesses as well as understand when to change strategy and adjust as the game progresses.

[@ou5603]

"banging" is definitely not bad. A player definitely needs to learn both drive and drop. A couple of times, I met high 4.5 player who can drive with precision and power, I don't think that I could handle very well. The player in the video did not have much power at all and I don't see much topspin either.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Maybe top players in singles are bangers. I don't think most top players are bangers. I think they have more of a diverse game where they can bang when needed but mostly play a soft game. All you have to watch is any doubles match at the professional level.

[@Vanessa-pe2xs]

@pickleballpick-apart9787 I'm going to have to disagree...most pros don't play "soft"... The Johns bros are a rare exception. Especially on the women's side, it's fire fight after fire fight. The pro game is fast and aggressive.

[@ericoakland]

I think “banger” is reserved for someone who has 1-dimensional play style where they only drive. Driving is not bad, but if you only drive, it’s less effective. If you were to only drop, you’d have more success than only drive. But the answer is to have a mix.

[@deltalimajuliet5680]

@@ericoakland agree. If a players only tool is a ‘hammer’ they will treat everything like a nail.

[@929mmr]

I would expect to see longer volleys and fewer unforced errors from 4.0 championship but you can see they all have some skills. A lot of opportunities by the losing team to hit resets but they just kept trying to bang. 4.0s I play with have more patience. A lot of ways to skin a cat but if you are banging from baseline and transition zone you are going to lose to the banging team at the net.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

I agree. Thanks for watching.

[@user-mk3ks7sh1q]

You are spot on in your analysis!!! Dropping and resetting the ball will always be an important skill to master if you want to play at the higher levels of Pickleball. But driving the ball at certain times is also a fundamentally important skill to master.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for agreeing. I appreciate you watching.

[@blackbeardgoatjr2434]

I have adopted the 3rd shot drive and 5th shot drop. You have more ways to win with the drive and you test your op early to see if they can handle speed and power

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

That's definitely an option. Thanks for watching.

[@mooremathewj]

Rory, another great one I truly enjoy your work. It shouldn't matter the area one typically plays in but I wouldn't consider this 4.0 level. Where I live/play in North Carolina the level of play in this video would be a typical Thursday evening Rec/Club level. Play doesn't look enjoyable just trying to end the point as soon as possible. Demonstration of strategic and tactical mastery at the appropriate level should be on full display in a great gold medal tournament game...completely in my option. See you at the kitchen!

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Very good points. I think the team that lost was playing at the 4.0 level because the female player had some tennis skills and the guy could hit the ball hard. Other than that, I'm not sure they had the required skills to be considered 4.0. Thanks for watching.

[@Cacheola]

Good analysis

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching.

[@okayest_amateur]

Spot on analysis. Too many unforced errors though on both sides and shot selection was often less than ideal. You can't expect to win a point by driving upwards. You have to wait for the opportunity to drive the ball downwards and if you can't , then hit a drop. 3rd shot drive only works with a 5th shot drop. After the 3rd shot both opponents will be at the net making the 5th shot drive ineffective in most cases. After the 5th shot drop keep dinking until you reach the kitchen or your opponent gives you something attackable which you can hit downwards. If you watch Johnson/Frazier doubles you will see they do this very will. They are very patient in the kitchen while also not giving their opponents anything to attack. However I think the team with the tennis experience will have a higher ceiling once they learn to dink. 4.5 and above the drive becomes very important. In high level pickleball you cannot survive without offensive weapons (drive, counter, fast hands, aggressive dinks, overhead slam) I am teaching my friend to hit a topspin drive who does not have a tennis background and am realizing that this concept is difficult to teach to those without a raquet sports background.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for your lengthy comment explanation. I hope others read it.

[@attybong]

nope .. it's not because she's a tennis player, she can't pull off a 3rd shot drop efficiently simply because she is not a legit 4.0 😢😮

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

I have to agree with that. But, she is playing at that level.

[@scotttolliver5847]

Adding to my other comment... it's also hilarious to see everyone in the comments saying how this isn't really this level of play. This would be lower level rec play in my area etc... I get the distinct feeling that lots of people in the comments have not seen themselves on video extensively, or at all. I guarantee 99% of you don't look anywhere near as good as you think you do in your head. This has been going on with tennis ratings for ages, and it's part of why things like UTR have started to supplant NTRP for ratings. Your eyes can deceive you.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

You are on point. Until you see yourself play. You don't know how many mistakes you make or how much better you could possibly play. Thanks for watching.

[@christineross8139]

Great video and analysis. Love the work you do! I also struggle with the 3rd shot drop. I tend to stay back after, see if it’s good…what do you do or recommend as a reminder to move up and not hesitate in the transition zone? I absolutely know I need to move up but in the heat of the game my mind and body are not in sync! Appreciate any advice you can offer! Thx Rory!

[@blackbeardgoatjr2434]

practice more.than you play

[@christineross8139]

Agree! I’ve been drilling more and that has helped!

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for asking. Sometimes when I hit a perfect third shot drop, I admire it instead of moving up quickly. Sounds crazy, but I do. I know I shouldn't do it. You just have to know when the ball comes off your paddle if it's going to be good enough to allow you to move forward. Thanks for watching.

[@blackbeardgoatjr2434]

@@christineross8139 My fav are kitchen games. Both teams start at the kitchen. Drop serve dink, in the kitchen, cross court must bounce, return dink (either side) in the kitchen must bounce. From there the point is live on the 3rd shot and can be scored in any manner (avoid lobs for the sake of the drill). Redo, for any reason, if either the serve or return are too hot or out of the kitchen (if it's close, just play on for the sake of the drill). Rally scoring to 15, server switches sides on point scored. The goal is to get better at the soft game and to work on aggressive dinks, and speed ups. Play at least 3 games 2nd, 7/11 game. Same principles as the first game but one team starts at the kitchen other teams stars half court in the transition zone. Transition zone team drop serves to either player, kitchen team tries to return to feet of transition zone team, point is live on the 3rd hit. The goal is to get to the kitchen line while starting back. This helps with resets and drop shots, again, avoid lobbing intentionally. Team starting at the kitchen is trying to keep the other team back, as you would in a real game. Regular side out scoring, server switches sides after every point. The team in the transition zone wins if they get to 7, because of the disadvantage of starting off in the transition zone, team starting in the kitchen needs to get to 11. Play at least 2 games. These games will help you improve fast

[@frankgonzales8340]

​@@blackbeardgoatjr2434 7/11 Is better than actual gamed. My favorite drill

[@user-oo9hr6xx9q]

Spinny third shot drop that you follow hot on the heels of. Causes a pop up. Smash home the putaway. Nice pattern.

[@ralphparker]

That was a pretty good game.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

I think it was to a point. However, I think it was quite clear why the team that won, won. Thanks for watching

[@ralphparker]

@@pickleballpick-apart9787 The team that won was able to play both games, soft and hard. The other team, not so good with the soft.

[@reldelser]

I am surprised Jessica and Patrick didnt stack, since Patrick is a lefty.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Good point. Thanks for watching.

[@scotttolliver5847]

I'm a little late to comment on this, but the amount of negativity surrounding tennis in the video and comments really struck me. I was a tennis pro for 20+ years, and started playing pickleball a few years ago as well. There was pretty instant skill transition for a lot of shots, but there are also plenty of standard tennis plays that just don't work because of the court dimensions and the kitchen. Regardless, anyone that plays tennis doubles with good tactical understanding will be able to adjust to pickleball given a little time if they pay attention. Good doubles players know when to play touch shots, dip the ball low, use slice, play angles, and wait for balls above net level to pounce on. There were things called out as "tennis plays" in the video that are not fundamentally sound tennis plays either. They might be things that rec level tennis players do sometimes. They might be things some tennis players try on the pickleball court... but they are not good tennis plays. Also, addressing the comments section... if you guys want pickleball to endure at the level it has grown to and possibly even continue to grow... you need tennis players. You should be welcoming them with open arms... along with ping pong, racquetball, squash, and any other racquet sport players.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Tennis players that are 4.0 and above adjust very well to pickleball in a very short period of time. So, your point about this tennis player having a ways to go to become a good pickleball player, because she's probably also a lower level tennis player, is spot on.

[@Hawkin.H]

Would Jackie and Luisa be younger and faster to facilitate getting to the NVZ more effectively vs their opponents? Did Luisa stayed back or not getting to the NVZ because Jackie can cover more than half of the court and Luisa backing up bangers’ returns.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Good question.

[@eriktheadventurer5621]

Rory. How would I get you a video of my playing so you could rate it?

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for asking. The only way I can do it is if you post it on a KZbin channel. If you have a channel send me a link. I'll be happy to do it.

[@jeffdarcy6786]

You commented a few times on Luisa hanging back. This seems to be a very common issue among the 4.0 players in this area (I live not far from where this was played). I've even been yelled at for coming up too aggressively, when I was doing *exactly* what any coach would say I should, on good opportunities. I think what happens is that a lot of the players who reached that level a year or two ago didn't face much competition at their own level, and got a bit too used to beating up weaker up-and-comers. In that scenario, hanging back a bit can work pretty well - a bit more time to react, get one's feet set, see where the (inevitable) gaps are, with little risk of being caught out by a dink or reset. Against players who have decent defensive/soft skills it tends to fall apart, and its practitioners will generally blame anyone but themselves because they're used to thinking of their own play as the One True Style.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Wow! I know this is play in Massachusetts, but, I'm surprised a lot of players in that area. Stay back. If you move up and they stay back, you should be able to beat all of them.

[@okayest_amateur]

I think you are referring to the 3.5 cardinal sin. Move up when you are not supposed to. If your partner makes a good shot then move up, otherwise stay back until you get a good shot to move in. 3.5s in my area tend to move in too fast either on serve, or after hitting a 3rd shot and then get surprised that their opponent hit the ball deep. Don't underestimate your opponents ability to hit deep at your baseline or you will get caught out and lose lots of points. Its easy to rush in, hard to backpedal.

[@jeffdarcy6786]

@@okayest_amateur We're not talking about a 3.5 problem. This is a problem with 4.0 players who are overcompensating for that error by hanging back *too much*. As in the video, remember? They've discovered this "neat trick" of staying back a little more, and against 3.5s it works pretty well, but they start doing it even more than they should and then can't break the habit when they play against people who have a short game. I've used this to win points off many such players, even when they're stronger than me in other ways. There seems to be a kind of brain rot that sets in among most people at 4.0, thinking that they've found The Answer for all time, and also that they're infinitely entitled to give other people unsolicited advice. In reality, you have to keep adapting at every new level, even against specific opponents, and sometimes it's better not to patronize partners.

[@okayest_amateur]

@@jeffdarcy6786 Not sure what your issue is. this is a forum to discuss and exchange ideas. you are welcome to challenge the validity of my statements but i am just trying to grow the common knowledge base which is the purpose of this channel. Perhaps i comment on this because I play with many players who do not have this sensitivity to when they should and shouldn’t move up. It is very frustrating to watch players make the same mistake over and over again. All im suggesting is understand where the 4th shot will land before moving up. If you move before knowing you will most likely miss the ball or put your partner in a very difficult position. I see some 4.0s. make this mistake as well. Moving forward is easy. moving backwards is hard.

[@jeffdarcy6786]

@@okayest_amateur *My* issue? You were the one who responded to my comment, talking about the very opposite of the problem both Rory and I had been trying to address, in a cadre of players that hadn't even been mentioned up to that point. That seemed like the "blame anyone but themselves" behavior I had mentioned. Apologies if I misunderstood, but please don't try to imply that anyone else is doing anything but try to share information too. We're all trying to learn, and maybe teach each others a little. Cheers.

[@juansoria4086]

Is that guy’s serve legal? Seems like he hits the ball from a pretty high stand point and the paddle is above his wrist, no?

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for pointing that out. It's so hard to tell. I think it is. However, there is a judge and he never called it.

[@jeffdarcy6786]

I was thinking the same thing. That side-arm motion was flirting with illegality, and personally I think it went over that line more than once. It's another aspect of going for power instead of accuracy.

[@JohnKeeling]

at 5:45 i stopped it and noticed the serve, then i saw this comment, i think it was illegal, but very close, hard to call in real time.

[@fernandozfrancisco6190]

Please, you will have more success in pb being an experienced tennis player than someone with no racquet sports experience!

[@929mmr]

100% but I don't think anyone said differently. Skills translate wonderfully from tennis to PB but the strategy is not identical. I find that tennis players start out PB banging a bit too much and try to spin a bit too much and maybe lob it a bit too much. Tennis players entry level is much higher quality that non tennis players but they still have to adapt and work on patience and touch to progress to higher levels.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

I know it's a small sample size, but, not in this game.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

This post is exactly correct. Just what you saw in this game. Thanks for your comment.

[@holbrookpickleball]

Hey there! Is there an email we can reach you at?

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Sure. But, what is it that you need?

[@user-ug5wn3cy4m]

Guy in white socks served incorrectly 80% of the time, hitting well above the waist giving the lady on other team some issues.

[@juansoria4086]

First thing I noticed right away. Surprised the referee corrected the guy on the first point for allegedly stepping in the kitchen but missed the other guy serving illegally the entire game… weird how that works.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

I was so focused on other stuff. I didn't notice that. I'll go back and take a look. Thanks for pointing that out.

[@JohnKeeling]

the serve at 10:14 , looks like the paddle head is slightly above the wrist . he drops from pretty high level, almost his neck or at least his upper chest. it is hard to see exactly since he swings fast and that is a lot of movement

[@GunnerstahlY]

Being a banger is bad, it means you’re never going to be as good as the player who s good at both soft and hard. It means you need to learn the other half of the game and effectively not be a banger any more.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

I agree with that. Thanks for watching.