PilotEdge Workshop (IFR): 1. Departures Demystified

INDEX:
0:00 intro
4:50 Diverse departures
15:30 Departure procedures
24:20 Obstacle departure procedures
56:00 SIDs
1:10:17 -- vectored pilot nav: VNY9 (BUR)
2:04:00 -- pilot nav: PORTE (SFO)
2:12:00 -- RNAV: BOACH4 (LAS)
2:23:40 -- vector SFO9
2:26:15 ATC departure instructions
2:31:20 VFR (covered briefly)
Description:
"Cessna 123AB, is there a truly spectacular reason why you're still flying runway heading?"
"Umm....."
It's a sinking feeling when you realize your plan of action bears no resemblance to what ATC was expecting you to do, isn't it? After a brief introduction to the big picture of IFR flying, we're going to dive into each phase of flight (departure, enroute and arrival) through a series of workshops, leaving no stone unturned.
This first workshop focuses exclusively on the methods that exist to hurl an airplane into the air in the world of IFR, getting it into the enroute structure and on its way.
PilotEdge is a network which provides professional ATC for flight simulators. These workshops are hosted and presented by the network every two weeks at no cost to the general public. More information and videos of the past workshops can be found here: pilotedge.net/workshops

[@ashtendiver7118]

These videos are absolute gold, wish I found this sooner

[@CaptainReverendo]

Very helpful for new IFR student, the gentleman that does these workshops is very thorough and pleasant to listen to. Suggest watching these IFR workshops before even starting ground.

[@user-lr8ly9jb9y]

why does this only have 89k views? every pilot needs to watch this.

[@pilotedgeATC]

Help us share it!

[@sakumisan]

I went through 2 IFR ground schools and this is 200% better than anything else I've watched. Thanks for making these.

[@coma13794]

It's interesting how many people have pointed this out over the years. Commercial IFR ground schools somehow manage to miss the mark over and over again. Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[@frysimulation]

It's been many years since this workshop was posted, but just trying to get more pilot knowledge, and this is one of the best I have seen. Thanks.

[@hpeterson10579]

Coming full circle! I was using this as a student pilot for ppl (which I didnt get back then got it about a year ago) and now Im using it as I prepare for my IFR check Ride on Apr. 5

[@pilotedgeATC]

Welcome back!

[@msstaceystento]

This was the most helpful tool for me and learning IFR procedures! Well done, thank you!

[@B737_89]

Hi. I'm a CFI working on getting my CFI-I. These videos are the best I have watched so far. I'm 40 minutes in and I learned a lot. Thanks for sharing.

[@chaimgoldberger4591]

Bravo! What an amazing contribution to the sim flying community pilot edge has brought to the table, it's a waste that since 2005 until recently I didn't even know or heard of pilotedge, I'm enjoying every minute if it, keep up the good work Keith.

[@ShawnDavis954]

Wow! Awesome workshop vid! Thank you for sharing free of charge!

[@iliketheoutside]

I'm a real-world commercial pilot from South Africa, but I'm in the U.S. at the moment converting my licenses to the FAA equivalent(s). Your videos have all been a tremendous help in understanding the differences on charts, different layout and terminology etc. Many thanks sir!

[@danr5375]

I'm impressed by this presentation. I though for sure it was going to be "death by powerpoint", but you have done a great job of filling in the space. I've learned a lot and plan on watching more. thanks for spreading your knowledge!

[@bartowsanta6313]

Wow, what a lot of information packed into 2 1/2 hours. Thank you very much Keith. Now I can start working on those I ratings on Pilot Edge without wondering what those mystical departure plates meant.

[@ignaciobadiola2850]

Thank you! These videos have been AWESOME!

[@Mimsk]

Wow this was the best introduction/explanations I've seen yet. I'll be joining PilotEdge!

[@freeethnker]

Keith is a gentleman and a scholar

[@luardelchico5769]

Outstanding job at explaining these things.

[@RichardStratman]

Lots of good information, each time I watch these I pick up new information. Keep it up and I don't mind the time as the information is worth it :) The stories does help with the relating of the information being provided.

[@hpeterson10579]

This is what I've been looking for! I'm a student pilot with just my x-country and towered solo left before I get my ppl... Thank you so much! so glad I found this video because I joined pilot edge immediately crossing over from Vatsim! Money well spent for serious pilots... instrument flying has always been interesting and intimidating but this really explained a lot... moving on to part 2

[@edwinramos5070]

I'm a Sport Pilot...Love your presentations!!!

[@johnny5039]

Great video. Multiply your groundspeed x 5 for descent rate on approach or so I heard. Another tip for descent is to figure out how much altitude you need to lose X 3 for a rough estimate.

[@pfunkhelo]

Thank you so much! Very informative! Being a helicopter pilot its hard to find someone who knows this info as wells as the airplane pilots.

[@henningporsby7173]

Learning when it is best..........Thanks

[@Blackhawkpilot14]

For Diverse Departure I teach my Army Aviators 400ft Or Circling Minima of the lowest available approach whichever is higher before turning. At several airports the HAA can be up to several hundred feet higher than 400ft. This is to ensure obstacle clearance in the vicinity of the runway and an easy MSL altitude to reference in a published document.

[@bugnut82]

Your ground speed divided by 60 multiplied by ft/nm = feet per minute. 120 divided by 60 x 200 = 400

[@kimghanson]

Re: The Montgomery/Mission Bay ODP. It's possible they just want you above the Montgomery CZ after you depart MZB hence the hold there until 1800. In other words, the obstacle is Montgomery Field and other aircraft departing on the ODP.

[@officergregorystevens5765]

One of the trickiest things for me to learn for SIDs too wasn't the complexity of those with a lot of waypoints, and altitudes, but that the SIDs which just give a runway heading or one close to it, then say "thence..." and not much else. I was flying them and assuming I was meant to make my next turn without instruction, but turns out those essentially are saying wait for ATC to issue your vectored turn to the first or next waypoint..

[@coma13794]

"thence" is used on ANY SID which has instructions for different runways, or multiple transitions. It's not really indicative of whether a SID requires vectors or not. In cases where vectors are expected, they are fairly clearly laid out in the text. Example the ORCKA SID out of LAX.

[@Kawo1983]

Officer Gregory Stevens I am no instrument pilot, but thence... just mean skip the things coming next not related to your runway and continue reading what’s next at the section starting with ... again. At least that’s how I understand Keith’s explaination

[@Khahngenwater]

don't see the link to your I5 video...help!

[@Abe_Hiroshi]

I watch this entire playlist probably once a year like other people binge watch "The Office". Is there something wrong with me?

[@thedlalwani]

For the VNY9 departure, when do you start you turn to 210? After crossing the runway threshold on the opposite side or as soon as you cross 400ft

[@coma13794]

You must have crossed the Departure End of Runway (at or above 35ft), and then after that, after crossing 400ft AGL. Both conditions must be met.

[@thedlalwani]

Didn't expect a reply on a 4 year old video! Thanks Keith! Btw, these workshops are pure gold

[@davejones542]

You mentioned flightaware to see what sid pilots get - where do you see that on flightaware.com - cant find it

[@officergregorystevens5765]

its under each airports IFR plates or procedures page

[@JustPlaneSilly]

Are these slides available for download?

[@pilotedgeATC]

Keith should be getting in touch with you about this. Let us know if he hasn’t yet.

[@ericc7936]

basic question. how do i get to skyvector charts for an airport and waypoints for departures?

[@coma13794]

Right click on the airport, select it from the popup list.

[@ericc7936]

@@coma13794 add to plan?? or click on the airport eg ksan?

[@coma13794]

@@ericc7936 nothing is going to catch on fire if you try both and see what happens :) My text said, "right click on the airport, select it from the popup list." So, yes, click on the airport name from the popup list. It's in blue...it's a hyperlink....it takes you to the airport detail page with every chart you could dream of. Alternatively, you can hover over the airport name and another popup shows up with a shortcut to most (but not all) of the charts. Play with it, don't be afraid.

[@sdstolworthy]

Do you all publish the slides for these presentations anywhere, by chance?

[@coma13794]

still have them in my Google drive, email [e-mail] with some background info about what your plans are.

[@Jeff-ec7ow]

Hi Keith, I've definitely subscribed to this channel. Super useful! I'm not sure if you still check or respond to comments, but could you clarify the part about SID altitude restrictions when ATC gives you an altitude? Is it the phraseology "climb and maintain..." that makes the CASTA minimum crossing altitude go away? Or is it if the departure controller gives you a different altitude after you've departed the runway? If our clearance from the clearance controller was "climb and maintain 5,000, expect 13,000 five minutes after departure" and then we get "maintain 13,000" afterwards from the departure controller, do we still have to respect the CASTA minimum crossing altitude? Thanks, Jeff

[@coma13794]

Hi Jeff, glad to hear you found the workshops useful. This particular workshop is slightly out of date, I should probably do an updated one on SIDs because the 'climb via SID' phraseology now exists. The flow now (which is all that matters) for SIDS with altitude restrictions is as follows: The initial clearance will contain "climb via SID..." or "climb via SID exception maintain xxxxx." In the first case, you'll climb to the published 'top altitude' for the SID, adhering to restrictions along the way up to that altitude. In the second case, you'll climb to the assigned altitude, adhering to restrictions along the way. If you receive and amended altitude from ATC (such as the departure controller once you're in the air) in the form of 'climb and maintain xxxxx' then the published altitude restrictions go away, unless the controller includes "climb via SID" as part of the instruction, or simply restates the relevant restrictions.

[@Jeff-ec7ow]

Thanks Keith, makes sense. A few more questions since I am an engineer by trade and very thorough: 1. We can fly ODPs in lieu of any course guidance to the first fix by ATC. Does "course guidance" only refer to the heading, or to the altitude as well? 2. We can fly a diverse departure if there are IAPs and no DPs. What about in the case of "no ODPs for specific runways", like runway 26L for Brown Field? 26L does not have an ODP, so can we fly a diverse departure if we are cleared for takeoff from runway 26L?

[@coma13794]

1. course guidance would be a radar vector or the assignment of a SID. Assignment of an altitude doesn't preclude flying an ODP since EVERY IFR clearance is going to contain an altitude assignment. 2. If an ODP is published for an airport, it's going to address each runway at the airport. At SDM, it's inaccurate to say that there isn't an ODP for 26L. A more accurate statement is that the SDM ODP specifically states that 26L is "not authorized" for IFR departures.

[@coma13794]

Jeff, a follow up to your question. You ask if you could fly a diverse departure for 26L. Assuming there is terrain effecting departures from 26R, causing the need for an ODP, it's highly unlikely that a parallel runway, just a few hundred feet away, wouldn't be affected by that same terrain.

[@Jeff-ec7ow]

Are there any other common reasons why 26L wouldn't be authorized for IFR departures if it's probably going to be subject to the same geographic hazards as 26R? I'm wondering why they couldn't have just used the same ODP for 26L as for 26R if terrain-wise they're basically the same. Also, in the workshop when we take off VFR from a non-towered airport and then switch to IFR once we're on the air, which controller do we talk to on the ground when we want to depart since it's a non-towered airport?

[@Khahngenwater]

are you still around?

[@davejones542]

if an airport has sid procedures why would you ever (need to /be required to fly) an odp ?

[@gonavy2255]

because not all aircraft can fly come SIDS

[@officergregorystevens5765]

Yeah if an a/c doesn't have rnav capabilities for example it can't fly certain ones. I know most of this stuff but need to start making checklists so I Don't forget things like to check the procedure for the runway Im using on the SID... happened to me today on PilotEdge and felt like an idiot, started flying to the first waypoint which was the very end of the runway I departed on, the starting end of it lol..I feel training can't help things like that though, but checklists should be made by mself or out there somewhere to not miss things like that. Just a small rant, sorry

[@mikejw58]

If one of the requirements for receiving a ppl was to be able to read the FAR-AIM and understand it without someone helping me, I would never have gotten a ppl. I read a few sentences and my eyes glaze over.

[@CaptainReverendo]

No more PORTE FOUR departure from KSFO it seems :2)

[@davejones542]

Concerning the MYF ODP. MYF is north east of Mission Bay VOR. (so you will fly south west direction from the airport to the vor). The ODP says if you are then leaving Mission bay VOR in north east direction you have to leave the VOR at or above 1800 feet. this is back in the direction you came from back towards the airport. Presumably in this case the obstacle you are clearing is the airport traffic itself ? otherwise this makes no sense because inherently you will be approaching mission bay vor in the first place from the airport while climbing out and therefore inherently be below 1800 feet!! - please confirm..

[@gonavy2255]

there is a lot of traffic near KMYF so that is the reason

[@coma13794]

Dave, sorry I missed your question 4 months ago. The ODP says, "...all aircraft climb direct to MZB VORTAC. Aircraft departing MZB R-090 CW R-360 climb on course. All others climb in MZB holding pattern...to cross MZB VORTAC at or above 1800." That means that if you are going to be heading NE of MZB after leaving MZB, then you must be at 1800ft prior to departing the MZB VOR. ODP's are generally for TERRAIN, not for traffic. Sure enough, if you look 17nm NE of MYF, you'll see the El Capitan Reservoir and a 3600ft mountain peak. If you climb at 200ft/nm from MYF and head directly to it, you'll only be at ~3400ft. Hence, the ODP gives you a 'head start' on the climb by having you at 1800ft before you even leave MZB.

[@coma13794]

very unlikely. ODP's are built to avoid terrain. If you look NE of MZB by 20-30nm, you'll see quickly rising terrain. Don't be fooled by the 1800ft number in the ODP...it's NOT necessarily because there are obstacles below that altitude. It's more likely that they're just making sure you're high enough prior to starting a minimum gradient climb to the northeast where the mountain will kill you.

[@gonavy2255]

I work a mile away from KMYF

[@davejones542]

Congratulations you are famous by association

[@mikejw58]

I'm confused. If we use the formula miles per hr divided by 60 then multiplied by ft/nm how do we come up with 770 ft/min? at 1:14:35. Wouldn't it be 670 ft/min?

[@pilotedgeATC]

Yes, it was a simple math error during the live presentation.

[@mikejw58]

@@pilotedgeATC I should have figure that out without. Tells you how I'm doing studying for my instrument rating. lol. Great job on this video. Thanks for all the work you do. Clearly you have a sincere desire to promote interest in aviation.

[@damiangodinez4797]

Or GS x FPNM divided by 60

[@JohnVanderbeck]

The leg to fillmore doesn't have an altitude. Do you just use the previous leg's altitude? Wait.. I just looked at the chart myself and it DOES have an altitude of 5000 listed but the chart you had in the screencast did NOT have an altitude listed. This is the leg between Suana and Fillmore. Yeah original RNAV came before GPS that's why :)

[@hesynergy]

Hey Keith, I LOVE YOUR WORKSHOPS ! BUT... ...I was trying to follow this workshop ...went searching SkyVector for the KBUR VNY9.VNY SID, and noticed there was none... only VNY1.VNY... I found VNY9.VNY SID on another site and downloaded BOTH. They appeared to be identical. That is a little concerning since we are talking about an FAA document with different nomenclature . NOMENCLATURE SL-67 (FAA)-from vny1.vny SL-67 (FAA)-from vny9.vny VNY9.VNY DATE SW-3, 07 MAR 2013 to 04 APR 2013 VNY1.VNY DATE SW-3, 06 MAR 2014 to 03 APR 2014(from sky vector) So can I assume that the FAA has done away with the VNY 9.VNY and replaced it with the VNY1.VNY? … Please advise this tyro ATC flyer Chaz

[@coma13794]

Yes, they revise the SID's from time to time. When they do, the number changes.

[@Taylor314T5]

Great presentation! I have been slowly working my way through the workshops and learning a lot. Not currently a pilotedge member, since I don't feel I am prepared for it yet (don't want to be the one screwing everything up). I do have a question that you may be able to assist with though. I just flew into Gillespie Field (KSEE) earlier today. Due to the decent into the airport, you're never in the Bravo since the shelf starts at 4800 around that area. My question however is this. The only departure procedure I can find is the ODP, which if i'm reading it right, instructs me to fly further into the Bravo and terminates at Mission Bay. 1) Why would the ODP fly you further into the Bravo instead of out of it, and in doing so have you enter into the Bravo due to the shelves? 2) What if i wanted to depart east, for example if I wanted to fly to Phoenix, what is the correct way to plan that flight? Sorry if that made no sense, i'm still learning......obviously Thanks

[@millskatherinekm]

It’s a little ridiculous to respond to a question from five years ago but I’m going to anyway. The reason the ODP out of KSEE exists is to give you terrain clearance. ATC will clear you for the Mission Bay Departure so they know where you will be headed and can keep you clear from traffic in the Bravo shelves. As long as you are following ATC instructions, airspace is not an issue when you’re flying IFR. For the second part of your question, if you were trying to go west, you would still get the mission bay departure, but ATC would not have you fly all the way to mission bay. They will either vector you off of the departure or give you “direct to” a fix or waypoint on your flight plan which will get you going the correct direction.

[@daniellamb7828]

Is this current as of 2021?

[@pilotedgeATC]

The video is fairly old, but most (if not all) of it holds up. Is there a specific question you have regarding a procedure?

[@daniellamb7828]

@@pilotedgeATC nothing specific, I’m just starting watching it and noticed how old it was and became curious.

[@pilotedgeATC]

@@daniellamb7828 hardly anything has changed over the years. If you come across something, certainly comment and we’ll let you know.

[@daniellamb7828]

@@pilotedgeATC appreciate it, thank you. I’m using these videos to supplement my flight training, so most will be directed at my CFI-I. But if we do find any, I’ll be sure to leave a comment so everyone can see!

[@Franklin-pc3xd]

Looks like he needs an AP for late-comers into the workshop lobby.