Pinball is Hard: What happened to Haggis Pinball?

What is taking Haggis so long to get games out the door? Why are they not being more open? Where are they getting their money? Speculation, advice, and facts throughout this video.
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[@Retrosys]

The odds a pinball company can survive in Australia are not favorable in this market. The import costs on parts alone have to be a nightmare. They have the ability, they have the talent, but the costs are way too high. I’ve played Fathom Revisited, it’s fantastic. I hope they can figure it out because I’d like them to succeed.

[@Maleko333]

I paid my deposit for a Fathom Mermaid Edition in April of 2021, and paid in full towards the end of October 2023 when I received an email saying "I am letting you know that we are planning to have a container shipment to Planetary Pinball Supplies leaving late January 2024". I'm still hopeful they'll make it happen but I'm definitely starting to get concerned about the possibility of them going under.

[@ej4439]

I'm rooting for them. I live in New Zealand and am blown away with the quality of what I have seen!

[@WateringDeadFlowers]

Haggis will pull through if people cheer them on sympathetically rather than torch and pitchfork. I would bet my last dollar that they in no way intend to rip people off. It's a hurdle they're facing and if everyone says they're irredeemable, then that is only going to increase the odds of them giving up. It's a Mount Everest they're climbing. Haggis, if you're reading this don't give up! When you're back on yourt feet I'll be ordering a pin from you guys as you've been an inspiration!

[@kineticist]

good job staying reasoned and not taking the easy rage-bait route

[@cigarsandpins4781]

Thank you for making this. I do not have social media and I'm rarely on Pinside. I had no idea this was going on. I feel bad for haggis but I feel really bad for the buyers that paid in full. Just a sad situation all around. I hope everybody gets their games. I've been collecting a long time but I'm always very hesitant with upstart manufacturers just because of shit like this

[@afattori316]

Robbing Peter to pay Paul comes to mind. You can’t take Centaur money to build Fathoms. It’s a hole that is near impossible to get out of. I heard of a body shop doing that. Would take new customers money to have their classic card restored, and would use that money to restore an earlier customers car. Eventually the shop closed down and people lost tens of thousands of dollars. I hope they can come through.

[@CaryHardy]

Yea, that's why I specified that IF they are doing what everyone 'thinks' they are doing (I say THINK, because we don't have proof) then their collapse will eventually happen. Is it likely they are performing the 'rob peter to pay paul'? Yes. But it isn't confirmed.

[@zak8953]

@@CaryHardy I hope they aren't. Surely Damien would have a little more common sense than that considering what's happened to companies in the past. If they are, then they were fools. Look at how many recent defunct pinball companies failed for that EXACT reason.

[@stevespringfield]

The build quality on these games is just sensational. I desperately wish they were profitable and we could have a successful pinball business here in oz. We have buliding companies (ie house builders) going bankrupt here left, right and centre, because they contract a price with the customer but then by the time they get close to finishing the build, their material and shipping costs have gone up staggering amounts and Haggis is in the same boat. What is totally unacceptable though, has been the almost total lack of communication. Having someone from Haggis send out - at the very least - a monthly update and updated timeline for the customers order - isnt hard and customers appreciate transparency and honesty... and tend to reward that with loyalty.

[@-COZ]

Meet the team from Haggis at expo 2019. They were really nice. I hope they can become profitable and get customers their games

[@ScottParisi]

Great video and insights. Took more than a year for my Cactus Canyon remake LE my Pulp Fiction LE deposit turns one in a week. Absolutely love my CCr LE and expect to feel the same about PF LE since I've played it at four shows already. As an industry, would love to see Stern slow down with the releases and everyone else just honor their commitments. 2024 will be interesting for the hobby.

[@carltremblay9451]

why would you want to see Stern slow down releases ?

[@ScottParisi]

The market feels over saturated and they’re creating strain in the dealer channels with high minimums and buy this to get that strategies.

[@desz71]

Wow, I just watched this Cary and being an Aussie, I have to say that this scenario totally smacks of a play for play repeat of what happened to RetroPlay (a Victorian based vpin cab builder in Australia), who went belly up in mid January 2023. They were doing similar things to what Haggis is currently doing, like taking deposits on new machines and requesting [local and overseas based] customers to pay the balance on pre-ordered machines, in the hope of being able to actually fulfil those orders. But in the end, the whole thing became a Ponzi scheme and eventually, fell like the house of cards that it was by that time. Many people lost a LOT of money and unfortunately, the perpetrator (Dave Gilmore) walked away with all of the money and didn't even so much as get a slap on the wrist by our p!$$ weak legal authorities in Australia. While I wish all the best for Haggis and I sincerely hope that they can dig themselves out of this terribly deep hole that they've dug, my gut intuition tells me that everything will come crashing down at some point. Best of luck Haggis and god speed!!!

[@UnixGoldBoy]

I played the Fathom pin about a month ago at The Pinball Palace and it was one of the highest-quality machines I've ever played. The owner, Kelly, came over and told me that they are sending him another playfield because it was convexed or popped up in the center. I knew it played a little strange, but, since I don't play pinball that often, it was hard for me to notice. Once he pointed it out, I could see it. He definitely has attention to detail which I don't have. Also, why isn't this channel bigger? You're a very attractive KZbinr with good content!

[@s000mable]

I hope they make it good luck!

[@RBPhantomTilt]

No way for me to not sound biased but hurts to see an Aussie company that makes a very high quality product struggling. I do think that everyone picking out the word "recapitilise" and attaching "broke" to it when what they're talking about is regrouping and moving away from Just-In-Time is almost wilfully misleading to get the reacts. But regardless. What's worse is hard working people paying for a product and having to worry if they are ever going to get it. This would be absolutely unacceptable in any other industry and I do think accountability can be lacking in the pinball world. I love what Haggis are trying to do and I do believe they are going to get this shift done. Hopefully there are still customers waiting for them when they do.

[@Jesselovespinball]

To be perfectly honest , I would not trust ANY company enough to pay in full for something I had to wait for . We are talking about at minimum 10 grand . Thats a lot of scratch to throw down . When it comes to money , there is not really anyone I trust , other than myself . Nothing against Haggis . But Cary made a good point , buy one on the second hand market . Then it’s a “ here’s the cash , here’s the game transaction “

[@theroguecybersoldier2629]

Haggis not only expanded too quick, with Fathom that's when they showed they're better at using words or going radio silent, than with action. Now they want people to hand over money when their game is not on the line? Yeah things aren't working out

[@Bobby11]

Yea, although some people are just not good at handling customer service. I actually dont believe Haggis is deliberately trying to cause issues but its not a good look.

[@Kingbuzz0]

Not that the saga of The Big Lebowski game should really be seen as a success, but if Dutch Pinball could figure a way out their mess, there is certainly hope that Haggas can as well.

[@JK-fv9xk]

Fingers crossed for Haggis. The nice guy underdog company ❤

[@tyarnold4088]

I wouldn't call what they are doing to their customers being a nice guy. Anybody can act nice for a few minutes here and there for the videos they send out. But you don't really know these people at all. Lol. Do you have any idea how many times I have been F#cked over by someone I thought was a nice person? Too many to count. I found out how people really are.

[@skippychurch2965]

Carry, Haggis is using centaur money to make fathoms. Surely that scares people.

[@philipdixon]

cough, Heighway...

[@user-gb4vh1rm7o]

Cary, if you think COVID is the reason why Haggis is the way it is then you are just being naïve, its such an easy scapegoat.

[@CaryHardy]

Educate me then, please.

[@lachlandowd]

@@CaryHardy Exactly. The 50 a month timeline was going to never be hit. Fathom was meant to go in production in July and it wasnt out of design till the next year. Issues in Celts were still being sorted for almost 6 months once Haggis had moved into that new factory. Also the factory never shut down during covid. All employees were given essential worker forms.

[@desz71]

@@lachlandowd , I'm from Victoria and we had some of the toughest state-wide lockdowns in the country during 2020/2021. How would pinball machine manufacturing be classed as essential work? I was working two casual jobs at the time (one in food manufacturing and one in circuit board assembly). The food manufacturing job was classed as essential, while the circuit board assembly job wasn't. Luckily, I had enough work from the food manufacturing role to keep me going during the lockdowns.

[@lachlandowd]

@@desz71 oh absolutely it didn't seem like it should be essential. But I think Damian found a loophole or took the wording in a weird way. I didn't stop working at all during covid though.

[@foolishheartband3096]

The damage is apprehensive. Got my fathom mermaid after significant wait , payment , promises, broken promises, more wait, and finally had to bring up the L word … Litigation. I got my game a couple weeks later. It’s a shame as the game is a work of art. Beautiful. I would have put money on a centaur if I didn’t have the bad taste in my mouth. Which makes me wonder if I should ditch the game and take a loss as it appears many are doing already. Or keep the game knowing it’s relatively rare. Regardless, I felt it was a poor decision on my end to even take the risk. I should have cut my loss on the first deposit before paying in full and then waiting the looong time. People that play it don’t know it. Hopefully Haggis gets there shit together. Get bought out and saved.

[@CaryHardy]

Would suck to lose a company that can 'revisit' these games and make them as pretty as they do. Even if they were to finish pumping out the Fathoms now - new buyers are still going to be hesitant on ordering.

[@desz71]

Question from an Aussie here, is there an ombudsman here for this type of industry? I know that we have very good consumer protection laws in Australia, but I'm not sure which ombudsman would represent customers of the pinball manufacturing industry.

[@pferkler9426]

I owned a Fathom Mermaid and it was beautiful and played well. But I was super concerned if the company would be around in the future so I didn’t want to be hung out with a game that needed parts or service in the future. I lost a lot but trading it for Maiden premium. I sleep better with a company like Stern in the background.

[@pferkler9426]

I also needed to pay air shipping of $1700 to get it delivered so it wasn’t in limbo waiting for a container

[@Sayntin]

Shark Tank wouldn't even touch Haggis at this point, but they need investors or it's bye bye.

[@aj1875]

I assume haggis pinball is not a thing anymore ? Since nothing has come out for a while

[@bullhidebelts5274]

I have a centaur on deposit. Kind of wish I didn’t now after email I got from them but hoping for best.

[@CaryHardy]

I would love a Centaur - especially one from Haggis because Fathom looked showroom perfect, but I'm not one for waiting and non-refundable deposits make me nervous. lol

[@davidcohn7531]

This is sad. It astounds me that when people get in hole, they don't stop digging. Haggis needs to stay in contact regularly with people that gave them money.

[@CaryHardy]

That would be great, but from what I hear - that's not happening.

[@youngloudandsnottytv]

Life is Hard

[@CaryHardy]

PREACH!

[@peparcell]

I hope they can ship people their games. With the economy right the pinball market is not doing well.

[@BARON.SAMEDI.]

The deposit in my case was 4K € and payed to the European distributor for the Orblivion Centaur...🙄

[@fourtraxer]

Define scammer please. Material lies for the purpose of gaining deposits and advance full payments when there is no possibility of said claim (lie) of actually happening is indeed a SCAM. Just like theft is the "TEMPORARY or permanent deprival of money, assets, or property from another party".

[@CaryHardy]

I personally would consider a scam being me giving money to someone expecting a fair transaction that both parties agree on, but instead I receive nothing and the other party had no intent of honoring the transaction in the first place.

[@fourtraxer]

@@CaryHardy This works if the agreement just fell apart and Haggis remained honest about what was going on- the problem here is the (public) material misrepresentations by Haggis in order to gain/maintain confidence so people would continue to send money. That's a no-no legally speaking. To be clear, I am hoping for Haggis' success. I am not a fan of how they have conducted business, however.

[@mcnillerandsons7906]

I haven’t been able to sell Rick and Morty for 6 months and I’ve had it priced on the low end of the range on Pinside… market is rough.

[@CaryHardy]

I see a lot of used games around me 'sitting' for a while too...

[@Bobby11]

I just hope they can sort it all out. I really dont believe they are deliberately doing this and maybe are just not good at handling "people" when its bad news. The cost of EVERYTHING in Australia went up during covid and mostly stayed up. So I really hope they find a solution.

[@darkwing7780]

Outrage culture bro, it's what some people live on anymore. Solid video and constructive feedback!

[@CaryHardy]

I appreciate it!

[@willierants5880]

Another answer to why it's hard. Finding quality help.

[@kirkhobbs1473]

where did you get the 35% of businesses closed in Australia over covid. the government here payed out plenty to keep businesses going. 35% is a way over stretch on the actual number

[@banzaipinball]

just google it, the number is over the last 4 years

[@kirkhobbs1473]

@@banzaipinball if you have googled it put the link 35% is just not accurate

[@rcfreeman]

Nice new 🎤. But we can't see you.

[@adamstar7516]

Cary, this is a bit misleading. Maybe your memory differs from mine but you never came out and said Deeproot was a scam. That was the problem. No one did. Everyone just skirted around the matter and stood on the fence. Yeah you said there were things wrong but you and all the other content creators never came out and said DO NOT BUY FROM THIS GUY. That’s why 100 deposits went in. Don’t do a Chris on us and after the deed and change the facts. If you ever said don’t buy or that’s a scam pull it up. I’m happy to be proved wrong. All I remember you saying was you can’t say anything due to nda and then when it all hit the fan it was too late. If the SIX had come out with it no one would have bought.

[@tntamusements]

I disagree with what you said about Cary and Deeproot. Cary was the FIRST person who said in his video that he thought it WAS a scam! He said it FIRST! It was right after he got the "tour" of the place. Cary said it almost a full year before they closed.

[@manojmohan9667]

Man I sent them 4k for the season pass and also deposit for the next machine .I hope those funds arent gone!

[@manojmohan9667]

@@donh1511 Man this sucks, what are my options? Dispute with credit card?

[@bradwilliams1691]

Hang in there, friend. I own Celts (#37) and know Damien Hartin personally & I'm absolutely positive that he'll come through. To use the word 'scam' in this video is completely irresponsible. Cheers from Melbourne, Australia 🇦🇺

[@goodgameslover]

When i see these stories, i get acid burn myself. I paid in full for a Predator myself... We all know how that ended...

[@tyarnold4088]

Oh. No. Having them pay in full then not delivering. No bueno. Good to know.

[@leefernandes3228]

No one said they weren't delivering, they are delivering, very slowly but they are and have been. I'm thankful they're not dishonest crooks like those over at deep root pinball were. They are very hard working good honest people who I have spoken to and who have so far overcome more than most people would be able to overcome. Unbeknownst and unfortunate for them, they started a pinball company during the worst possible time right before covid was to hit and cripple the world. I give them a huge amount of credit to have been able to over come everything they did. Lockdowns, supply chain nightmares, shipping costs probably around 4 to 5 times higher than before they started the Fathom build, mad inflation on parts and everything else that comes along with a start up company especially all the way in Australia those costs hit them harder with all that distance, but even today I got notice that my Fathom order is being delivered by DHL tomorrow. Don't know what the future will bring but tomorrow, I'm looking forward to playing a high quality game of Fathom built by Haggis and im gratefulfor that victory for them and for myself. Hope and pray they'll be around to get my Centaur and that they flourish as a pinball company but I was and am aware as all should be of risks of taking a chance on a new start up company. Let's route for them because competition is good for everyone and they are doing everything they can in an extremely difficult time to persevere and keep on bringing us high quality games.

[@Railoffroader2]

Pin🎳Ball Life🤘🏼

[@richardabkstorm9009]

Cary...You should be bronzed. 🏆🙏

[@CaryHardy]

that sounds painful.

[@hectorcastrejon]

Only a fool would give them money at this point...

[@robertfrost8264]

5:28 This is the content I appreciate Cary's channel for. The truth, not some clickbait/silly half baked SNL, improv sketches,

[@evh347]

Where is your Haggis hat now? Told you this was going on 7 months ago.

[@CaryHardy]

It's next to all of my other hats.

[@agreener]

This was a tough listen. Seems incredibly biased towards Haggis as if you have skin in the game. "At least the money they're taking is from buyers and not stolen from the elderly". C'mon man, even you have to know how that sounds.

[@pinballprofile]

I have put down a deposit. I have no problem waiting. Never did. I look forward to my Centaur when it comes.

[@skippychurch2965]

If it comes*

[@bradwilliams1691]

You'll get it. I know Damien personally & trust him implicitly.

[@noahmorris7940]

Only update I need is on the Williams remakes

[@CaryHardy]

you and me, both!

[@TheFiftyQuid]

Wait, wait, wait... Soooo you're saying I'm not going to get my RAZA?

[@CaryHardy]

damn....didn't you get the memo?

[@TheFiftyQuid]

@@CaryHardy I've been out of the country! Glad I held onto my receipt.

[@hammyhamster1202]

Love your channel but disagree on haggis. Asking for full centaur payment in January was sleazy and egregious. Taking fathom payments 8 months in advance is the same terrible practice. He’s spent the money and will be out of business before long. Cheers.

[@CaryHardy]

I guess I'm curious on what we disagree on. I did say that taking full payments and not delivering is way different than taking deposits. I also state that IF they are using new money to pay for old orders that they will close up shop eventually. So, again. Which part of the video do you disagree with?

[@CasperInkyMagoo]

If they fail, who supports it?

[@robbymovick465]

Very informative I don't see anything wrong with this video. (All those nasty comments) looks like you're just getting seriously Trolled

[@CaryHardy]

I take the good with the bad. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but repetitive/spamming comments only shows me that some people have nothing else better to do.

[@pintastic5876]

You are too soft on them (for some reason). They took money and strung people along for far too long. Your response is “I won’t say it because what’s the point?”. Weak.

[@CaryHardy]

I believe Haggis' intentions are to build games and fulfill orders, but they MIGHT be going about it the wrong way. The point was meant to be: I want them to succeed. By me just piling on to the fire that is their current reputation - does nothing but hinder that possibility. Dutch Pinball has been in a worse situation with a bad reputation. Now they are fulfilling their TBL orders, and making my dream theme. Things can change. Maybe they will turn things around - I have no idea how, but it's not impossible. Me throwing a fit will not help people get their game faster. But my advice given will help rebuild their reputation, and hopefully keep others from possibly losing money. If they fail - it will be their own doing. My goal isn't to bring companies down, but merely help them improve. While also keeping people's wallet in mind.

[@pintastic5876]

@@CaryHardy I get it, you're a nice guy and don't want to be seen as harsh towards industry personalities lest they break off relations. However, you do a disservice to consumers by not conveying the severity of risk associated with sending these guys non-refundable deposit money. Haggis should not use their customer deposits on a future product to "re-capitalize". Huge red flag. How many times do we need to see it?

[@CaryHardy]

@pintastic5876 I do tell people to NOT send them money if they see "paid in full" list growing faster than fulfilled. I can only do so much on my end. People can do what they want with their money. If I was encouraging people to give them money and to "buy now" then I would see your point.