Kia Crank No-Start...Then Runs Rough?

Well this one took an unexpected turn.
The initial customer complaint wasn't the only problem with this Kia...
Double the diagnostics!
Enjoy!
Ivan

[@rhkips]

That feeling when "Inspect Customer's Shoes" doesn't appear on the factory flowchart... LOL I am LOVING Kia-Hyundai right now for having known-good waveforms. That is awesome!

[@JohnRodriguesPhotographer]

I bought a brand new Hyundai Elantra this year. My last new car was a 1999 Ford E150 oh, I never had a reason to regret the purchase. I've become extremely comfortable with my Elantra and have noticed that the car is being worked on tend to be high mileage cars. Some of that could be because of the warranty none the less the car is so for all appear to be in good shape and repairable.

[@JohnRodriguesPhotographer]

Excellent diag. Start at the beginning and in this case the beginning was also the end.

[@jusb1066]

Needs a cable tie round it, bad design location

[@danielc.3725]

Yeah, CABLE TIE, is a good idea 💡, put a Big strong BLACK type, put - - 2 - - for safe measures....

[@Charles_Mulberry_7977]

Everything is possible!

[@davemcgaffney9401]

These are great cars and they can easily do 300k if the timing belt and (auto)transmission fluid are changed per the OM... We have had 5 of these cars and they were/are the most trouble free of ANY other cars we have owned... BTW the very first timing belt replacement I did had the same codes and I found the number of teeth between the intake and exhaust cams was off by one tooth... You need to make sure there is no slack between the cams even though they may look "right"... The CEL will go off and the engine will run much better... I have an 08 Spectra SX (4 door version of what you worked on) with a manual tranny and it has much more pep than the automatic version... Dave

[@RadialPen6262]

My 06 rio has 257k and runs like a champ. Oil change, trans fluid, timing belt, shocks... thats it

[@zachricketts95]

Agreed. My stepmom had a 2005 spectra5 sx and I learned how to drive in it. Cheap and reliable

[@MaicSalazarDiagnostics]

I agree! All manufactures should give the cam-crank correlation waveforms! Even known good of all sensors!! They have all that info! It would make our life some much easier! Great diagnosis my friend! Stay warm!!!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Thanks Maic! Got some firewood stocked up, time to make a fire :)

[@tonysova4687]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics hope that heatpump is ok

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

So far no issues this season...don't jinx it!

[@tonysova4687]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics now do a clean and check and ur good till spring

[@stigonutube]

wow good pickup there with the timing belt being out..ivan and pico scope to the rescue :)..helped to have a bit of service history also. Kia coomoon is that a nice place for a pcm!! LOL..

[@marccurtis3464]

Xln't knowledge Ivan, thank you! Between SMA & now your videos, I've become much better at diagnosis. Even on the simple, no starts/basic tech work. Positive thinking goes a long way!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Thanks for the comment Marc! Knowledge + Positivity = Power!

[@bhinak714]

There's your problem lady

[@danielcarter5579]

Yes!!

[@husseinolivia2548]

South Main Auto " "

[@thewt]

I recently encountered a vehicle that had a failing battery ground cable. The terminal had come apart but was good enough to start the vehicle intermittently. The oddest thing was that the missing ground would light up the front right turn signal and side marker light as the ground became disconnected. My only assumption was that the vehicle's computer was trying to find engine ground through whichever circuit was easiest. That just so happened to be the power wire for the front turn signal lights that connected very close to a main body ground.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Cool! Yeah bad grounds can have some crazy symptoms!

[@barryo9065]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics What's the model number of your Picoscope? I'd like to invest in one. Thanks Ivan

[@Cheepchipsable]

That's just electronics. Find the best available earth/ground.

[@fieldsofomagh]

Nice addition with the known good waveforms. Pico shines out bigtime. Funny location for a pcm.

[@eddiesheeran5791]

Excellent work man, this is how you diag a modern vehicle.

[@tinkerwest]

I would look for signs of spilled coffee, tea or hot chocolate as probable cause for connector dislodging from foot/leg jerk reaction just to satisfy my curiosity. Nice diag, the scope does it again...😎👍

[@tinkerwest]

@Robert Slackware That's another possibility...😎🚬

[@gonzgarr1592]

you did it again caught somebody doing a bad job nice job Ivan

[@SmittySmithsonite]

Interesting turn of events there! Nice work tracking that one down .... and you get paid twice. 😎

[@mikefoehr235]

Ivan, did you have to align the marks on the cam sprocket with crankshaft sprocket to get the timing correct? That ECM lock is kind of sketchy. Not very secure.

[@kevinedward1234]

Ivan, great video!!!! Thats how all Kia's run when they fell off the assembly line!

[@fil1329]

They r better these days then the big 3 American ones

[@Paul1958R]

Ivan, Excellent video and diagnosis on a very interesting case study. I learn so much by watching your channel - thank you! God bless Paul (in MA)

[@jeremystone6613]

Thanks for the analysis footage. I have a 2001 Nissan Q18DE that has P0335 with new cam crank sensor so this is the next test in my train of thought.

[@somerandomguy3868]

Excellent diagnosis as always, forward thinking of Kia to provide known good scope captures, and you're right all manufactures should do the this

[@High_Tech_Mountain]

Great video Ivan! The proof is in the captures!💪 Manufactures take note from Kia! KG’s for the win!

[@Garth2011]

That PCM latch needs a lock on it because of its location to the clutch and foot rest. Anyone could easily kick that clasp open with their feet unintentionally. The timing belt got put on wrong, amazing.

[@robc5955]

Began to think you had been setup, clever stuff it's amazing how easy it is for me (a rank amateur) to forget the basics.

[@Chris-Fennimore]

Good info! I got a Subaru crank/NS and fuel pump not being powered on. I'll check the ECM connectors.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Start with a test light at the fuel pump relay!

[@dunckeroo1987]

Ah, looks like someone goofed installing a new timing belt. Looks like he's saved some lady a lot of trouble down the road.

[@billziegmond4943]

I can't be that lucky. I am working on a Saturn Astra 1.8l It has a P0016. Found the timing was way off on the back of the cams and the phasers on the front. Somebody was in there before me. The customer had me replace everything all OEM parts. Used the proper tools and got everything back mechanically where they are supposed to be. Still have the code. Without a scope and good wave form. Kind of at a loss. Am I getting a good signal from the cam sensor and the crank sensor. Are the phasers able to correct the timing or are they disabled because of the code. Unfortunately Mitchel doesn't give me enough information. (BTW I am doing all labor and diag for free.. This ia Vietnam Vet on disability income) Parts are being provided by donations. That said another Great video Ivan gives me some ideas on how to proceed.

[@mjmcomputers]

I think your theory on their foot pulling the release is correct. That’s a bad design.

[@garybrown5500]

Maybe someone thought it was the hood release ;)

[@vincescalise4821]

Great commonsense diagnosis good job Ivan

[@brianmason1414]

Ivan, this is Brian. For what it's worth, on the Lexus I asked about...it was a bad CKP sensor. Absolutely nothing I was seeing would have lead me to that. Was throwing ignitor codes. Finally found one line in an entry in Identifix under "tech-tip" that said a faulty crank sensor can cause ignitor codes. Thought I'd let you know, just in you ever see anything. Great videos as always!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Thanks for the tip, Brian! A scope would have picked that up I'm sure. Would be cool to see a known-bad vs. a known-good :)

[@brianmason1414]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I'm sure a good scope (like a Pico), would have probably picked it up, but unfortunately all I had was a much less expensive OTC. Not very many settings. But, it's fixed, that's what matters! On to the next headache...lolol....

[@mikechiodetti6737]

That's great with the waveforms! The Pico verified the problem. If the timing belt was changed recently, hopefully it will be an easy correction. Really bad place to put the PCM connector. At the very least, Kia should have put a cover over the PCM harness and connector! Nice Diag!

[@calholli]

'Easy correction" means doing the entire timing belt job all over again. Not so easy-- that's why it's important to do it right the first time. The sad part is, they probably started and checked to see if it was right--- and it "sounds" ok, because the variable valve timing is making a corrective adjustment, accounting for the incorrection. So they start the engine thinking it's running fine, and put everything back together. smh..

[@kenk3102]

...interesting video Ivan....where's the follow up repair?....or did the "shop" do it?....

[@lloydtucker]

That pcm lock will make for a great cost effective immobiliser (until breaks off)

[@faustogonzalez8397]

Thanks Ivan, Awesome. Love that Pico too, real sweet !!

[@franciscocampos2566]

Man you are bad ass! I wish I could be a beast with vehicle diag! 😭 God job man!

[@michaelferik8060]

Whenever Ivan starts scratching his head, look out!

[@seanseann963]

what up pine hollow.....very good Diagnostic , what model pico

[@throttlebottle5906]

spark tester, no wonder I heard HV arcing when it started and you was talking :))

[@williegillie5712]

I don’t think the engine would have run as good as it did at idle with the timing belt being off even one tooth. I’m a little curious about if they were paying attention to where they initially set chain on the VVT. Nice job Ivan as usual

[@W.Khairi]

Great point

[@fil1329]

Has a timing belt and chain combo

[@CubasAutomotive]

Excellent case study Ivan! I love geeking out! I wonder if the SI Express followed you? ? Stay warm my friend!! 🤗🤗

[@danmauney8394]

Ivan great job and still the czar of cars and diagnostics!

[@thebaldmechanichardatheari1124]

Someone with big feet must of driving it. 😂

[@johnthompson941]

winter boot season?

[@pauldavis5075]

A guy might like hearing that but if a lady drives that car what an insult.

[@shaunadams3170]

Yeah first thing that came to mind. Someone caught it with their foot

[@thebaldmechanichardatheari1124]

Don't make more out of it if you don't have all the information.

[@Viper81766]

@@pauldavis5075 seen plenty of women with huge feet

[@DylanRabier]

😆😆 Nice one. Way too easy for you. But hey after the Staten Island express you can use a break. You're right on the service info. Would be awesome to have known good waveforms given to us. 👍👍

[@DangerousSportsForSeniors]

Nice one . Love the factory wave forms. I was in State College this weekend. Breakfast at the Naked Egg!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Cool! I had breakfast there on Sunday haha

[@leedress2187]

I've seen on some cars you need to advance the cvvt when you put the belt on. Its possible that Kia has a procedure like that which was missed.

[@leedress2187]

@Sam S true. Just mentioned it for reference.

[@kevinshasteen5682]

I hear Staten Island pays a premium for good used ECM's. I think someone was trying to steal the ECM and as you arrived you scared them away ;) Seriously, I'ld ask your customer what the previous tech that checked her car out before you was trying to sell them, was it a "bad ECM"; and was that tech from the same shop that was responsible for the shoddy timing belt job?

[@ganeshnarayan5505]

Hey Ivan great video and great work.i think you are getting better then Eric o.

[@8power0]

THAT IS VERY INTERESTING , I LIKE THE CASE STUDIES !

[@richardsawtell256]

Im a hyundai tech in new zealand and well the same as kia same power train , i had a 2012 ix35 with that issue and the exhaust cvvt hub was sticking after 90kms of driving but these are timing chain , 9 times out of ten its lack of oil changes or wrong oil grade the PCM are in the engine bay now which is such a better location

[@weshawkins7165]

Good diagnosis. The lab scope is a valuable tool. Wonder if the shop that had you do the diagnosis did the timing belt?

[@edwinbrewer1789]

On that engine the chain & or tensioner between the cams could be the cause or could have vvt issues as well. I just did a Kia Rio with the same design. Mine was not as far off as yours. It is a goofy set up. I think that the CMP tone wheel bolts to the back of the intake cam. Happy diag'n!

[@tonygriffiths2485]

A nice quick one. Makes up for the previous Mercedes ignition key that hadn't been programmed properly and caused a parasitic current draw, flattening the battery quickly. Swings and roundabouts. change the Trans fluid to fix ? Yup there's another wun ! Good luck :)

[@dallaslcherry6653]

I have a 2005 Kia Sorento I bought it drove it home turned it went back to start it and it wouldn't start up I the Water restaurant the starter and a fuel pump I'm going to try changing the fuel filter Dallas L cherry North Vernon Indiana

[@wyattoneable]

Very cool diag. Easy fix in the beginning. Now the customer needs to spend some money to make it right.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Actually might be a comeback...the shop did the timing belt not too long ago lol

[@JD-iu3vi]

Maybe original shop would not own up to installing the timing belt wrong. So the owner pulled the BCM connector to get someones attention.

[@baxrok2.]

You've definitely been affected by your SIE experiences. When things are easy and go right, you can hardly believe it! lol Thanks Ivan!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

No kidding!

[@jamesbruno5896]

Awesome double diag!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Two-for-Tuesday!

[@rbo350]

so what did you do to fix it and how much did it cost the customer or did the other shop cover the expense

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

Note to self. If I ever purchase a KIA, zip tie ECM plug! I wonder how long they drove it with the mis-installed timing belt?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

At least a month lol

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics WoW!

[@neilmurphy845]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics god wonder how someone would think there car is ok whit that terrible noise and dead sause power

[@W.Khairi]

On kia/Huyndai I think the pcm lock has a locking mechanism itself in that - if I remember correctly - u have to press it down from the front to get it to open. So I kinda dismiss that it was accidentally unlocked.

[@usama6028]

one of my friends has crank no start. avalon 2007, the code is camshaft. when i removed the connection of of it tried to start the car started, however if i put the connection back it wont start,is that normal??

[@JoelAutomotiveInaction]

when you add the cursor to the 360 degrees the was half rotation of the cam ?? nice video training as always

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Yup one rotation of the crank is one half rotation of the camshaft 👍

[@DJ-tn7vj]

Ivan. Your face expression was priceless.lol

[@xtremebikemaroc]

Man you’re the best. Thank you so much you save my life

[@franksprecisionguesswork501]

I pop the hood latch on my escape at least once a week getting out of the vehicle with my size 13 shoes. I'm sure if I owned this Car! I would have discovered this same no start scenario.

[@djb4069]

Such a clever lad, from the UK

[@abbeyrham4220]

Easy money...... Great video, keep them coming

[@cygnus58]

OK you made me laugh. I'm old. kudos.

[@MrCheeto01]

I’m a bit surprised when folks rev an engine just after starting as if they don’t feel it’s running yet and revving insures that it is, isn’t revving the worst thing for an engine when sitting and cold?

[@W.Khairi]

What is more puzzling it is done by promenint mechanics who know best about oil starvation at start up.

[@calholli]

It was puttering and spitting and missing--- sometimes revving will "blow the cobb webs out" or help get air bubbles out of the fuel lines, ect. Or just giving a little gas to an engine that is about to die. It was a perfectly normal reaction to hearing the engine missing like he did. (which turned out to be a spark plug test set up)

[@calholli]

@@W.Khairi The oil starvation only happens for a second or two at most. Revving the engine shortens that time even more, by speeding up the oil pump. There is that initial moment, but it's almost irrelevant. Now for example, changing your oil filter. It can take a little longer because the pump is having to fill up that entire filter before it can pressure up the engine- So it's good to pre-fill your filter when you install them, if it's possible; and don't rev needlessly at start up on a fresh filter/ oil change.

[@W.Khairi]

@@calholli Many thanks for the clarification, but there is another factor involved when revving a cold engine which is that piston-rings don't seal +seat properly against cylinder walls when cold and therefore the high risk of cylinder scoring, piston-rings damage and excessive blow-by.

[@jivandwarka5475]

Question, when you're drive testing, how do you explain all your open screens in the front seat if you're ever stopped by the cops

[@unclechaz8426]

Nice diagnostics Ivan. 👏👏👏👏.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Thanks Thomas!

[@roxanneabbott8424]

Ivan I think you were being pranked, at first lol!!!

[@SGDeGalvez]

Cant wait for the first PHAD Tesla repair!!

[@trevorvanbremen4718]

Especially if it's a 'crank-no-start'!!!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Probably coming sooner than you think!

[@gaad7938]

Would totally change the "check powers & grounds" methodology!

[@tomsmith29]

it was probably that shop that did the timing belt ! so many bad garages out there this is why i fix shit myself with the power of the internet your sure to succeed

[@richardcranium5839]

am suprised there is no lock on that lever. i could totally see doing that with my work boots

[@ricanderson5717]

Respect Layer 1; connectors and wires are ALL out to get you :-)

[@Matbug1812]

I had a Sentra no start years ago and traced it to a stolen PCM. They were under the driver's seat then.

[@themechanic6117]

Great work! Thats not the best place for a pcm.... Although easy to get to. Finding someone's shotty work on that timing belt 👍

[@chestonanderson]

You seem like a smart guy I got a 08 DTS I got no spark but have battery voltage ground signal and low ref going to the coils and both refs show 5.3 wtf 🤷🤬🤬

[@AllSpeciesOhioFishing]

Worked perfect you saved me man!!!

[@tomctutor]

Shouldnt you also check oil level and pressure. Maybe cvvt thingy locked up, might need releasing. Just high rev it a few times might release the lock. Worth a try!✋

[@W.Khairi]

I think the code description said thats the code is set only if present timing is outside of max vvt advance or retard, so even if the vvt solenid was stuck it shouldnt cause a corelation code but rather timing overadvance or overretard codes...or such.. My 2 cents, But really cool point none the less.

[@Cheepchipsable]

Some customers are unhappy about paying for such a simple fix, (PCM fix)....better make it sound more complicated.

[@samrugtiv3839]

Looks like that job has been butcher. Lucky then didn't bend any valves .good job ivan Time for some soup.when ar e you going to show us some more soup recipes. Sam

[@Drives31forhalo]

I am a bit of a Hyundai fan, love my 04 Tiburon, but that is a TERRIBLE location for an ECU with that style connector! I like that it's easy to access and all, but having that connector in that location is just asking for trouble.

[@brad8665]

Stupid spot for the pcm. But if the shop couldn’t figure that one out I have no hope for them.

[@Jpilgrim30]

Seen this multiple times. People bump them with their feet and knock them loose.

[@ChadGrays]

Another reason to get and use a scope. This weekend i am going to record the known good timing between crank and cam on my cars.

[@ChadGrays]

Of course i go to alldatadiy.com and try to look up my cars and i cannot find the wires to test. I miss my paper OEM factory repair manuals. This digital stuff is hard to search. Or somone needs to teach me how to find these wires on alldatadiy.com.

[@tj4034]

Can't imagine putting ecm where it can stepped on. Be like putting ejection seat button next to radio button.

[@burtpilon1735]

Super cool on the known good waveforms from alldata 👍🏻

[@Cheepchipsable]

That was provided by Hyundai.

[@nct9466]

I was in China in a VW driving, some dude passed me on a mountain road in a stupid place n I cut him off jumped out n cussed him out.... later on the car wouldn’t start...ESP code... Quick look online n I couldn’t learnt the issue but but... the plug to a module and must’ve happened when I rapidly jumped out of the car and hit it with my foot!

[@kevlinville]

Is this a poor location for the pcm?

[@repairitdontreplaceit]

are the carpets freshly vacuumed ?

[@neilmurphy845]

I would buy a kia just for that that's so cool how they show you want they should look like

[@Cheepchipsable]

Maybe they went to pull the hood and grabbed the PCM connector by mistake?

[@phprofYT]

Oh, that's not a good location. That metal plate is where I'd be resting my left foot during long stretches without clutching. I'd be kicking that connector all the time.

[@ismarmeskovic]

Great job Ivan !

[@markferraro5250]

Nice Ivan. Thanks

[@notyou6950]

I got that sick feeling when I heard that timing belt was just changed. Not a fan of interference motors. I just don't trust anyone messing with it.

[@SuperM1687]

Time to bust out a big zip tie! Did the customer do the timing belt?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Nope shop did it...was driving around like that for a month haha

[@shaunadams3170]

Nice find

[@gregcromer8406]

The Korean engineers didn't account for larger, American feet. It took the Japanese years before they relented, and put American-sized cup holders into their vehicles.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Good point!

[@montefiveforty1]

Same shop probably did the timing belt...