Pinion preload explained again and with destruction to prove CC's don't crush themselves by use.

this was made for Joe. Joe I think is a avid offroader who lost a bearing off road because he thinks he crushed his (CC) crush collar more. Yeah um, no that doesn't happen.

[@harvestblades]

Let's hit it like it's Joe's fingers on a keyboard had me laughing! Always good to see there still are knowledgeable & honest guys back East still.

[@Supershafts]

Well. Truth be told , I abandoned NY last year because of its bad politics and policies , I was tired of fighting the good fight and not really getting ahead. I moved to Florida in Sarasota. Hey, Joe is actually a good guy. We had a disagreement, and I went overboard making a point. It is good to not have to worry about being a felon because elected idiots can't read the 2nd ammd and understand it..

[@ranjah007]

What can I say. When a man with experience speaks, it’s time for the boys to take a seat and listen. Thank you sir for sharing this knowledge with us (and Joe)!

[@mercedesmaintenance.6339]

Nice clear no nonsense explanation. I have literally no experience in doing this job, but you explain the crush sleeve very well. I am currently working on a Mercedes diff which is a little different. i believe its called a clam shell design. I like the idea of slowly bringing up the pressure on the crush sleeve, makes sense to me. Cheers John.

[@joesears773]

Thanks for the chat! After talking with you I think I have a better understanding of what may have actually happened.

[@BillySBC]

Can you see why I never let anyone work on my car now?

[@german2669]

Good experiment

[@andymcdowell7917]

😂 this best video ever keep kicking ass bud 😂

[@mikemetrusias4324]

Crush collars can't crush under use because the outer pinion bearing is seated to it's race, which is in its seat in the case. It can only go so far. I'm glad you didn't really talk politics on your auto-mechanics channel.

[@nealecole8768]

Subscribed after hearing your warning to Democrats 😂

[@georgetsetsakos6088]

Nice vid. How often does that dial type torque wrench need to be calibrated?

[@Supershafts]

If it's used as much as mine , 6 months . If you drop it , immediately. There are tools in this shop where the rule is If falls get some part of your body between it and the floor, that's one of those tools. If you use it once here and there or 4 times a year and didn't drop it , I'd say every other year.

[@Schnippen_Schnappen1]

So i can just install the pinion nut back in with an impact gun without measuring preload and torque after? Yes I forgot to take measurements and now I’m wondering if i will ruin the rear end if i put it back together LOL

[@Supershafts]

Make sure and use new red locktite, if you have a weak impact that won't get over 300ft lbs, you can't measure the preload with the carrier in place either, but best way is tighten it until you have the right preload for the application you're working on.

[@BlondeWick]

Whats the part number of that snap on torq meter if you don't mind me asking

[@Supershafts]

TE12FUA 40158 8" torq meter

[@andyking9673]

the crush sleeve is a really stiff spring, that's why the OE have all gone to them---the pinion bearings will maintain a little preload as the bearings wear

[@evancloninger3906]

Not true. The pinion spacer pushes the bearings apart, not together... so you don't crush them while torqueing the pinion nut. If you were to magically remove the pinion spacer after torque, the pre-load would sky-rocket and the pinion would seize.

[@andyking9673]

@@evancloninger3906 you are saying the same thing as me

[@jimsperlakis5634]

Can I back off the pinion nut just a fraction if it's a Little to tight ? Impacts are just Not Forgiving. Why don't they give a Torque setting for the Nut. That could relate to the yield point and then add Preload.

[@Supershafts]

It takes nearly 300ft to crush the collar , around the same would be the torque spec for them. Better off counting how many times to take the nut off and return it the same way , the torque required to crush or to be utilized for that size nut and thread will burn the bearings up in minutes. This is very much like a hub bearing , if you remember or know how they were like before unit hubs , you needed to have the correct drag , too much they burnt up, to little they got hammered to shit. Same applies for pinion bearings, except they see much greater force . And that's why you need to know what the preload is and that it is set correclty.

[@joefrasson8997]

Thanks for the info. I have a 12 bolt Chevy rear. It had all new internals installed about 4000-5000 miles ago at a local shop. recently it started to make noise on the coast side. When I pulled the cover off the oil came out grey. After cleaning out the housing and refilling it the noise got a bit quieter but has not gone away. This is a worn pinion bearing I am assuming?....

[@Supershafts]

Sounds as there is a preload issue , you'll need to see whats causing it. You could have a failed pinion nut that's loosening or a bad bearing.

[@joefrasson8997]

@@Supershafts So new crush collar and nut then torque to spec?...I am guessing if the bearing is bad there will be play in the pinion?...

[@Supershafts]

Grab the end yoke , you shouldn't have any, ANY movement in and out or up and down, the only movement you should have is rotational , even the slightest feel of movement any other way will make a noise , remember the difference between a quiet diff and a noisy diff is thousandths, sometimes you can't see it, but you should feel it.

[@Supershafts]

@Joe Frasson ... also , since it was reset by another shop , what i would recommend and do is to reset the preload with a new CC , you need to remove the carrier also , make sure you keep the shims EXACTLY as you found them and the caps EXACTLY as they were.

[@Supershafts]

@Joe Frasson torque to preload of 20 to 22 inch pounds, you'll need a torque meter like what you see in the video , after you remove all the play from the pinion then you start checking your preload , go with small quarter turn increments getting less as you get closer to the pre load , once you get to preload turn the pinion several full rotations to seat the bearings and check that preload again, add another inch pound for the seal , so you want to be between 21 and 23 inch pounds.

[@onemore4thetube]

Great video! Love your commentary! The 12 bolt posi gear set in my '68 el Camino seems to be louder than normal to me. I wasn't the one who set it up, but I am a mechanic. If I were to take it apart to check the current pinion bearing preload and found it to be I don't know, let's say around 7 to 10 in lbs or so, can I just snug it up to 15 to 20 in lbs to see if it quiets it down? The gear set has around 2,200 miles on it. Or should I remove the pinion and start over? I have the axels out already and am ready to remove the carrier. I do have a complete understanding of the entire process, so no worries there. Just wasn't sure if I could just snug the nut up some, maybe that would destroy the effectiveness of the loctite though. The installation instruction sheet calls for 15 to 25 in lbs rotating torque on the pinion nut when setting up new.

[@Supershafts]

7 to 10 isn't bad, where is the noise , louder on decel or accel or light cruise ?

[@onemore4thetube]

@@Supershafts Light cruise from what I remember. I can feather the throttle on and off and make the noise go away and re-appear. It's real annoying cruising at freeway speeds. I will be pulling the carrier out today to check the bearing preload. My original plan is to buy a new ring and pinion set and do the job right myself. I can do it, it's just that I never have before. I have photos that I took of the paint pattern when I got it back from the shop, but there's no way to post them here in the comments. I was hoping I could make some adjustments without having to buy a new gear set, but that may not be a good idea with the miles that are on it after not being set up correctly.

[@Supershafts]

Sounds like you may have a backlash issue , before you rip it all apart, clean it all out , use a brake clean or similar , get the pin and ring clear and dry and mark it with some paint after checking the BL and the see how the pattern looks on both sides, possibly send me pics and I'll see where you need to go , you won't be able to check pin preload with the carrier in place, but let's what we see from that first

[@onemore4thetube]

@@Supershafts I had already check the backlash, I got readings between .008" and .009" at four places around the ring. Can I send you the original paint patterns from when the shop set it up? If so, where can I send them? Really appreciate your help.

[@Supershafts]

[e-mail]

[@colliswilliams8992]

If I over tightened my crush collar by just a few inch pounds, how big of a deal is that? I found two specs. One says 9.75 ford axles should be 15-19 inch pounds and another spec says between 16 and 29. Im somewhere in the mid 20s. It's nice and quiet, so i guess it's together right.

[@Supershafts]

Well I like to stay between 16 and 24, when the bearings finally get run in it'll loosen up and have less drag. Now nice and quiet means your gears are together right Doesn't mean you don't have too much preload and you're burning up your bearings , so when you do the oil change if the oil is ANY where near black, you're too tight, or you got way to dopey doing your breakin, It should be light to med gold color. Now if it's in the brown range, you may get away with preload. But breakin also plays a role in oil temps. Remember don't try and pull anything the first day , don't be showing everyone how much faster it is with the new gears either. What I do is Two 15 minutes runs. Basically, normal runs. No foot to the floor dead stop starts, but roll in up to 60, 70 depending on ratio. Let it cost down a bit. Drive for 15. Let it sit completely cool off and do it again for another 15, after that i instruct my customers. No world record sled pulling and no land world speed record setting for the next 100 miles. Mistakes many people make are this... ""I did 100 mph when I drove my car off the lot""... yeah and your brand new car had its trans, engine, and diff run in at their specific companies of origin , so technically, you didn't do any breakin procedures. But also , remember don't look at breakaway drag , we don't care about breakaway. We want to see consistent motion load. I'll do a video of what and how that is done. I don't think any of my current vids really touched that.

[@colliswilliams8992]

@Supershafts I really appreciate your reply! The thing is, I did this job in a parking lot of a campground. I build playgrounds, so I travel with lots of tools, and tow a camper. I did a job in touristy area of Northern Michigan and the rear end started making noise. I tried to find a shop that could get me in, but everybody around here is booked up for at least the next two weeks. So I decided to give it a shot. But I have to leave Saturday and I'm pulling my camper. I guess I'll take it slow, accelerate like grandpa, and check the oil a lot. If it's looking burnt, I guess I'll stop again...hopefully somewhere a little less expensive. Edit: FYI I only changed the outer pinion bearing, cc and seal. There's no way I'd have tried to do more than that in a parking lot.

[@Supershafts]

@@colliswilliams8992 , you did the gears also or just the bearings ?

[@colliswilliams8992]

@Supershafts only the outer pinion bearing, crush sleeve and seal

[@Supershafts]

@@colliswilliams8992 .. how was the race ?

[@SteveBurns80]

Wow that's interesting! Many "so called experts" have told me that I need to install a solid pinion spacer to make my diff stronger for extreme 4x4ing ect ect. Also, does this mean I could reuse my crush sleeve if replacing only a pinion seal? Cheers.

[@Supershafts]

You can replace a seal if you're very careful and leave the current CC in place. 1. You need to mark the socket to the end yoke and count every turn and where it finally came off as if it was a clock and the time, , when replacing it you go back the same EXACT turns you removed it, but you use a new nut and red locktite. When (just using this number as an example) you get back to the 29 full turns and 3 o'clock position, so if we were looking at this as a degree,, 3 o'clock would be 90 degrees , now you go another 10 degrees and that's it , done, nothing more. Put the tools away and top it off . I've done this on my own shop truck and many other vehicles, with no negative effects at all....however other shops have done this and got me a few bearing jobs from over tightening it or just not having any clue what was going on.

[@SteveBurns80]

@@Supershafts Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Makes sense. 👍 I'm about to install a diff lock centre to the front of my 100 series Landcruiser, apparently these diffs are fairly small and weak for such a heavy vehicle and most people are trying to convince me to use a solid spacer instead of a CC. I really didn't want to touch the pinion as there's nothing wrong with the bearings or preload setup from factory. Will save me a lot work not having to doing it. Cheers.

[@Supershafts]

@@SteveBurns80 there is absolutely no, Nothing to be gained by using a shim over a CC, those people have shown you their knowledge , or lack of knowledge... I'm aware that certain year landcruisers had a weaker 2 pin style carrier, the later have a 4 pin design. Using a selectable at the front is the only locking type diff I'd recommend.

[@SteveBurns80]

@@Supershafts Yep, you're correct, the earlier front diffs were only 2 pin carriers and later they went to 4. So yeah good reason to go the selectable air locker as it upgrades it to 4pin if you still have the earlier 2pin version. These people telling me that the pinion shaft will flex under high loading if I don't use a solid pinion spacer. I'm not even an expert and I can understand your explanation. Would you say it's more likely the whole carrier would flex and cause damage?

[@Supershafts]

@@SteveBurns80 . Is this the live axle version or the IFS version they are making this wild, insane claim about ?

[@gnarlock3927]

I wish you were all my teachers! Died laughing when you the hammer hit and the camera dropped. My pickup just developed this dragging sound on decel after hydroplaning around in torrential downpours. I think the preload has loosened is it possible to snug it down at all to remove the play or is it rebuild time??

[@Supershafts]

If you have play in it , you can try to give it a slight turn, but if the nut loosened up it's gonna again. Now if when you go to tighten it , 1. Tiny tiny increments of a turn , like 5 degrees and then drive it , see if the nosie went away , if it did, that nut lost its ability to hold... if it feels like you need 300ft lbs of force to make that 5 degrees of a turn, then something else is wrong. A bad carrier bearing can sound similar on coast and usually the left side that'll make that noise. If you have movement at the pinion up and down or in and out , either the nut gave up or a bearing is done. To check that get the rear off the floor . .

[@Supershafts]

Also what year and make is your p/u ?

[@gnarlock3927]

@@Supershafts 2004 F250 6.0 Power stroke (5R110 / 3.73 LS) it's lifted 6" with a straight driveshaft from xfer case It has gotten a little better after driving it a few times but still seems to have a bit of sound on decel from above 35 slowing to stop. Fluid is @20k on the rear I wonder if it got water in through the breather or something. Going to try your suggestions, thanks for your help man! Keep it real 🤙

[@Supershafts]

It's possible if the diff was totally submerged that it sucked water in, when the diff is hot and tossed into cool water it'll create a vacuum from the quick change in temp on the housing and can draw water thru the seals, this is why I put closeable breather valves on strict use off road vehicles so they have positive case pressure when going thru water. Yeah I really swung that sledge extra hard , I didn't want to hear any bs about not hitting it hard.

[@gnarlock3927]

@@Supershafts You da man it must've been water intrusion, the first few times driving it was louder but quieted down. Drained my diffys and the rear was kinda milky brown. New fluid and all is well again. Be careful driving through deep water y'all! $$$

[@antoniochaves-osas9455]

😂 loved it. I don't really see the purpose of a crush sleeve or the solid column. It only prevents the bearings from rotating on the pinion.

[@Supershafts]

The purpose is to retain the preload and hold the inner races in place and since there is constant noise from the ring and pinion , that torque is needed to prevent it from loosening over time. I once lost preload at Englishtown raceway from playing with set ups and very light preloads looking to see if we could find free speed and time. I also found out that day loctite has a shelf life, and no longer buy the big huge bottles anymore. So we lost the preload and the nut nearly came off between leaving E-town and getting back to home shop, which was a 100 mile trip using 2 feet to keep the pinion underload and not get sucked into the ring gear , so we know , I know first hand that in drag racing and other forms where it isn't seeing hours , you can run the lightest non existent preload , and also know that if you keep load on the pinion the front bearing can literally fall out, when we got back to the shop the nut was caught between the end yoke and the u-joint in the shaft , the end yoke was backed off and we were lucky we didn't lose the shaft as it could have dropped off the pinion gear. The front bearing wasn't stabilizing anything, when I had to slow , I had to keep the engine putting pressure on the diff to keep the pinion planted against the main bearing so it didn't get eaten by the ring. Was a part of a experiment I wasn't looking to learn that day. This was back in 1988 or near that time. A new nut and reset the proper preload and new loctite fixed that issue. On a drag car only that nonexistent preload will work , but not on a car seeing street use, or atleast not one with expired loctite. So check your dates on your loctite guys and girls, if it's past the date, lose it , don't use it.

[@antoniochaves-osas9455]

@@Supershafts that definitely makes a lot of sense 👍🏽. I didn't think about the nut coming loose 🙆‍♂️

[@bamaballistics]

I've got a crown Vic that's making some noise. It sounds like I've got a hole in the exhaust when I'm going 35-40 mph, but the noise goes away when it's in neutral or park, even if i rev to the same RPMs. I'm planning on putting it on jack stands and crawling under it tomorrow morning if it isn't raining. Im hoping it's just a loose pinion nut, or something rubbing like a heat shield. If not, I can already smell the axle grease and lube. Blech! That stuff stinks! Lol

[@Supershafts]

A loose pinion will make noise when you coast , not quiet up, so you have a load issue. More detail might help , but really it's easier to see it and hear it.

[@bamaballistics]

@@Supershafts as I was coming home from work the other morning, I decided to stop at the top of the hill and coast into the driveway in neutral with the door open just to make sure the noise wasn't anything to do with the engine. It still made a sort of banging and scrubbing sound from the rear. Ugh. Imma have to get up under it when I get time. It's definitely not a wheel bearing either. I've had many of those suddenly fail, and this is nothing like that. It actually struggled to coast. Something somewhere is binding, because I could feel it lurching when it made the noise.

[@Supershafts]

Ok so when you get off the gas and it's popping then that's the pinion gear being sucked in, and it's so loose it's beyond a bad bearing , and it's going to break. So you have 2 choices here... either 1. learn to drive with 2 feet and keep the rear loaded when slowing or 2. Fix it before you're spending 900 or more. . I'd get that to shop that specializes in this and get it fixed before it's more than bearings and races, if it's not past that already.

[@Mohamedseddek]

👍👌

[@classics289]

Interesting stuff. I agree completely. Especially on the political stuff. But on 60's Fords all 8" and 9" rears got crush sleeves EXCEPT the hi performance vehicles. Every Boss 302/429, 427 and 428 cobra jet car from 67 on got a nodular iron case, Daytona pinion support & a solid spacer. Why do you think Ford would have used them?? Their engineers definitely knew more than just about anyone out there at the time and it would have cost more to do so. What's your thoughts on that?

[@Supershafts]

There is no way for a CC to cause a issue. The only thing they might have wanted was a reuse issue. Definitely it serves no purpose in strength or longevity. . The only way to make it tighter is to push the end yoke and have something push the pinion gear at the same time, that can't happen when it's in use. The only thing taking place is the loss of preload by wear from use or lack of oil and abuse. If Ford was smart they would have trashed that horrendous design ... But!! They didn't , so makes me think they weren't really paying attention, when you compromise something for another idea , it's a bad idea. Losing the space in the carrier for the much needed 3rd bearing to support all that pressure and drag to compensate for more tooth contact was a great mistake.

[@evancloninger3906]

It's easier to install a set of pinion bearings with a crush sleeve on an assembly line, in fact, automated machinery can accomplish the task. In order to reach the correct pre-load (drag) and, concurrently, the correct nut pinion torque with a solid spacer, you'll have to take it apart several times and add shims.

[@moejr14]

Dana 30s are strong as shit

[@teezbeez]

👍🏽

[@davidmillan6086]

Who’s joe

[@Supershafts]

Joe was like many people out here. He was misinformed by others that just spout things off, it was because of that this exists so you all aren't misinformed by bs, and have a better understanding of how things work.

[@greggraham2653]

Crush skeeve is only to help tell when preload is close. It is not needed and serves no function other than ease of setting preload. It does not maintain bearing preload as bearings wear. It is only for assembly ease.

[@Supershafts]

That's what I said

[@bamaballistics]

😂 I'd hate to be joe lol 😂

[@jonduppong1527]

Hate em or love ‘em, that’s the truth. Well done. We need less stupid comments and more real deal no bs videos like this.

[@vanillagerrilla7356]

Shit man i could of used that yolk!!

[@Supershafts]

I have more

[@vanillagerrilla7356]

@@Supershafts Need a set for my 2001 wj 242 transfer case and dana 30 front axle. Whatcha gotta have for a set. Shoot also need a front drive shaft if ya got one of those too. Im removing the rzeppa front shaft and want to put a double cardone because i lifted it a bit and the shit started growlin when i was driving. Thanks for the reply!

[@Supershafts]

I'm in the middle of moving the business from NY to FL. I have to machine the end yoke for the 242 case so it can accept the dbl cardan jointed head assembly , or I can build you a flange style that will bolt into the current 242 case companion flange you have now.

[@bolwell]

lol...classic

[@chrisknight8416]

Tough guy breaking parts to make a point while he plays Nickleback...Other than poor taste in music, this proves nothing. High torque high HP launches are known to loosen crush spacers...one of the reasons they make crush collar eliminator kits there chief.

[@Supershafts]

You didn't listen , nor understand how it works . CC and even Shims will lose preload , they'll never gain preload. Bearings wear, inner and outer races wear. This is why we set a preload at a determined amount of drag , its not going to stay there. But very shortly it will be where we want it to be. From there I'll ever so slowly continue to lose drag. I never said it won't lose preload. This is for all who think it can tighten up. Thanks for listening to music in the background that I wasn't listening to and you not listening to what was being shown. . You missed it all.

[@Supershafts]

That was Metallica playing their chief doofus, then Nickleback, but you're one of the scholars I spoke about in the video, aside for the background music , you didn't listen or pay attention, thanks for showing the stupidity after being educated on a subject. To everyone , this is what I have to deal with chiefs like chris that don't understand even after being explained how it works.

[@genzisgod4930]

FJB!