Plato, Meno | The Doctrine of Recollection | Philosophy Core Concepts

[@GregoryBSadler]

Plato does advance an account that does include reincarnation, but the doctrine of recollection isn't about past lives in the body -- instead it has to do with what the soul encounters, gets to know, and learns while it's not associated with a body. And even more important, the doctrine has to do with how we get "reminded" in this current existence of what we would have learned previously, and then forgotten -- that's presumably what Platonic philosophy aims to do. . .

[@MrMarktrumble]

thank you.

[@AjaxNixon]

wow, I get this feeling all the time when I play sports and feel 'in the zone.' Also, I cant help but think a toddler who starts walking is remembering how to walk and waiting for his/her body to catch up for that last few weeks. I wonder how what we call 'instinct' fits into recollection theory.

[@Paljk299]

This perspective on knowledge is interesting, especially in the way it's explored and written about in Plato. I particularly like it when he examines ideas about knowledge in the Ion. Even if you don't agree with Plato's ideas about where the knowledge comes from or resides, a lot can be gained by considering the perspectives offered in these dialogues. Thanks again for these, it's always nice to have brief reviews of the ideas.

[@GregoryBSadler]

You're welcome. Yes, one can learn a lot from a classic text by suspending the worry about whether one agrees or not and focusing on understanding, at least for a while

[@Retrogamer71]

Well as someone who has just had a bump on the head, whilst ensouled in the moment of bodily healing I've experienced the trouble of self remembering. Which is a spooky thing. Glad to see Dr. Sadler on the screen. I feel that life is normal and I'm feeling better. I'm remembering that my knowledge and sense of wellness is attributable to philosophers and great teachers being present. So I agree from my recent trauma that Plato has something in the locus of truth on the matter.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Glad the bump wasn't worse!

[@WenZ1221]

Thanks so very much for this video. I hope you continue to post more on PHILO! I'm taking the course now, and find Socrates and Plato's Apology, Allegory of the Cave and the Crito to be very challenging.

[@isaiahlawrence9870]

Wendy Zurita Howd the course go?

[@miniwheatz100]

You helped me with my midterm. Thanks.

[@GregoryBSadler]

You're very welcome!

[@charbelabounader7009]

Yoo I remember u. U were extremely helpful while I was writing exam papers thank u

[@nikczemna_symulakra]

Sincere thank you for this lecture - it did helped me with some intricacies as i was writing an essay for my ancient philosophy class. Once quoted but of course honorably referenced:] Btw. greetings from Nicolaus Copernicus University in Thorn, PL

[@GregoryBSadler]

You're very welcome!

[@davidholt1250]

Yes, learning to tie our shoelaces doesn't seem to have much to do with eternal forms....although maybe the principle involved, say the ability to recognise a pattern, would.

[@lincolncurtis1725]

I totally am wondering the same things (at end of video). However, I think what Socrates actually believes regarding all knowledge and all learning ect is irrelevant simply because of the purpose of the dialogue. It's to motivate man to "learn"- whatever that may be- in order to progress. I believe that's the bigger message of this so the examples he uses will cater to his ultimate goal. To motivate man to be brave and persevere for the sake of knowledge. Then again, I don't know much about this topic. I am just starting my first philosophy class. But in regards to your questions this is what I initially thought. Please tell me if I'm missing something!

[@GregoryBSadler]

Well, I tend to think that Platonic dialogues have multiple purposes to them.

[@kellykizer7014]

In the Talmud (Masechet Niddah,30b), when a baby is conceived, God sends forth an angel- perhaps the Archangel Michael- to teach the baby the entire Bible and all the wonders and secrets of the universe and of God’s love,as he or she rests in their mother. When he finishes the lesson,the angel presses his finger to the child’s lips, forming the philtrum as a sign that he or she has indeed come to understand God in all His glory. The angel then admonishes the child to never reveal anything of what it has been told to any living creature. Upon birth, the infant will then forget all that it had been taught.

[@GregoryBSadler]

That's not what Plato's discussing here. Let's keep comments relevant

[@bestboxingbreakdowns]

Dear Dr. Sadler, I have heard some people (it may have been you in one your videos) suggest that perhaps Socrates only leads the slave through a process of logical deduction based on the slave's original knowledge that a square is a shape with four equal sides. Therefore, the slave learned geometry not through recollection but through reasoning/deduction. Do you think this adequately refutes Socrates theory of recollection? Or does this simply change the question to 'how did the slave know what counted as good reasoning'? Thank you for your videos, you are very engaging and are able to maintain clarity on complex issues.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Glad you enjoy the videos. Why couldn't it be both recollection and reasoning/deduction? How do you think Socrates/Plato thinks recollection takes place, after all - both here and in other texts? Or put in another way, do you really think that Plato, writing this dialogue, doesn't know that Socrates is leading the slave through a process of deductive reasoning, and just confuses what takes place with "recollection"? That seems pretty unlikely for an author like Plato.

[@bestboxingbreakdowns]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, I think I understand better now, and I have another question. If Socrates/Plato is leading a deduction/recollection, does this demonstration still satisfy Meno's original paradox? My conception of Meno's paradox is: 'you cannot inquire into what you do not know because you will not know if you have found the answer or solution you are looking for'. So, if we allow that Socrates is leading the slave through recollection/deduction, then Socrates has shown that if you know a little bit about something (that a square has 4 equal sides), you can discover or 'recollect' further knowledge on that subject. Does this adequately disprove Meno's claim? My understanding is that this is supposed to be a demonstration in support of the search for virtue. Isn't the slave case a little different if it is just a deduction/recollection from prior knowledge? How will Socrates deduce virtue?

[@GregoryBSadler]

Sure - that was the point of introducing the doctrine in that dialogue. You do already know what you're looking for, but you just don't yet realize or recollect it. If you read the dialogue, you see that Socrates doesn't deduce virtue. They never arrive at a definition of virtue in this one.

[@Justtyty]

These are very very helpful videos thank you

[@GregoryBSadler]

Glad to read it

[@davidholt1250]

Did Plato get his doctrine of recollection from an earlier source? The mystery religions perhaps?

[@williampotter1004]

If you were given a Chinese dictionary, would you be able to use it to look up words if you did not previously know some amount of Chinese? So is it this way in life, that without some prior knowledge, interpretation, learning, would be impossible.

[@GregoryBSadler]

I would be, since I have a rudimentary knowledge of Mandarin, and how a Chinese dictionary is structured. Most people, I suspect, would not

[@DarkFire515]

Would it be true to say that in this context, when Plato refers to "knowledge" that he means his definition or concept of actual "knowledge" as opposed to orthodoxy or "right-thinking?"

[@GregoryBSadler]

as opposed. . . ? No. "Orthos doxa" in Plato does not mean "orthodoxy" as we understand it. It means a broader category of doxa (belief or opinion) that happens to get things right for the moment. "Right-thinking" can fit in there as a sub-category, provided it's actually getting things right at the time.

[@DarkFire515]

Ah I see, thanks for the clarification.

[@kaleidoscopicvoid]

+Cen Blackwell to explain more, in a way u possibly were really wondering, knowledge is not the same as conscious awareness. the forms are always known at all times to make experiencing them possible, but recollection is the recognition of the form in nature (such as the feeling for the sublime).

[@DarkFire515]

Set Theory Ah, thanks, that's quite helpful.

[@johhnytreason69]

Socrates' point about general definitions not being pinned down by an account of particular examples (which he says "applies to everything"), seems to suggest that all knowledge must come from the soul and not particulars, no? But then if I say "Lucy went shopping", my knowledge has little to do with ideal forms and everything to do with my experience of seeing Lucy get in her car to go shopping. The knowledge seems to take part in forms (car, person, etc) but the empirical part does not seem to.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Or there's different modes of knowledge

[@johhnytreason69]

@@GregoryBSadler Right, I was thinking the same thing. Plato's view I can't tell, since he seems somewhat set on saying through Socrates that all knowledge is from the forms, but then what is experiential knowledge? Maybe he sees it as 'experience', rather than 'knowledge'? Strange to think this, but I'm guessing there is probably some relevant distinction in his definitions at this point.

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@johhnytreason69 Reading the dialogues, there are plenty of places where it's clear that we also learn things experientially. Whether that qualifies as "knowledge" is more the issue for Plato

[@johhnytreason69]

@@GregoryBSadler I appreciate the comments, Professor! I wonder if psychology or neurology have some way to distinguish these kinds of learning and knowledge.

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@johhnytreason69 Sounds like a research project for you. You'll also find plenty of ways to distinguish modes of knowledge in philosophy

[@athembelemnxasana6827]

how does the doctrine of recollection respond to Meno's paradox though?

[@GregoryBSadler]

I think you can work that through quite easily. What does the paradox say? Start with that

[@katherineernst3603]

What is doctrine?

[@GregoryBSadler]

Here you go - kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYTRqamkp6h7gtk

[@LLMresearch]

I saw Socrates giving the servant the tools to reason with different outcomes and recognise the solution.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Some very modern-jargony way to reinterpret it, losing a good bit of what is taking place in the text.

[@LLMresearch]

@@GregoryBSadler I do recognise the meaning in the text and initially got me wondering if genes have memory.

[@LLMresearch]

I do understand that I need to strip back modern thinking and put myself back in Greek society of the time.

[@LLMresearch]

@@GregoryBSadler rational thinking, I guess that’s where Aristotle comes in. Ok I’m irritated you but I’m genuinely learning and just read the text again between Socrates and the boy.

[@GregoryBSadler]

You didn’t irritate me - and you’d do best not to make assumptions like that - but you really ought to focus more on the text

[@fathermari]

much appreciated :)

[@davidholt1250]

So what about stupid people? Are they souls who missed something from the last reincarnation?

[@GregoryBSadler]

You'll want to read more of Plato's dialogues