The 8 Bit War - Part 2 - Graphics and Sound

[@chadman3494]

You have such amazingly good production and interesting videos for a channel with so few subscribers and views. You should really have so much more in my opinion. I love when I see a new video from you on my feed so keep it up.

[@miketate3445]

8:50 Famicom Castlevania 3 is a VRC 6 chip, and it uses regular old oscillators, not two operator FM synth. The VRC 7 was used in Lagrange Point.

[@elimalinsky7069]

The lack of detail in the Atari 7800 might be due to how the Maria chip works, as it is does not seem to have the same hardware-based visual features (or hardware acceleration if you like) as the PPU or VDP. It looks like Atari was trying to do what some home computers did, where static images could be full of detail, but once something was moving or animating or the screen scrolling, it was limited by the CPU speed, so Atari had to find a compromise between the speed of the graphics being drawn and the overall fidelity of the image. It's something that harkens back to the days of the Atari 2600, when all graphics had to be interpreted, processed and rendered by the CPU itself, with the TIA just acting as a DAC, timing controller and analog signal interpreter. The 5200 and 7800 did have a dedicated graphics chip, but these were not as fully featured and did not take full control of the graphics rendering, as the chips in the NES and Master System. The CPU in the 7800 was actually very powerful, despite the 1.79MHz clock speed. It was a new generation 6502, which was much faster than the previous generation at the same clock speed.

[@KrunchyTheClown78]

From what homebrew devs say, and have even shown, the 7800 could rival the SMS when really pushed with masterful programming code. One programmer even said with enough time, the 7800 could even do a decent version of Castlevania: Rondo of Blood.

[@katherineberger6329]

As a Sega owner from back in the day, the size and detail of the sprites was such an important part of the experience of owning that console for me, to the point that they kept my attention on, and masked some of the flaws of, some of the lesser games on that console (such as After Burner, which pushed it into Chug City at times due to the ambition of the game exceeding the capabilities of the hardware by a substantial margin). Games like Zillion, Space Harrier, and Ashura/Rambo First Blood Part II were amazing experiences in part due to the size and detail of the graphics available on the hardware.

[@ryanulrich2147]

I am hooked on your videos. There isn't any of the flashy bullshit that other channels hurl at their subscribers, instead just straight, honest talk about video games. Keep it up!!!

[@esibs]

Great overview! Very impressed with the explanation on the sound chips.

[@cronocyde]

Very in-depth and awesome video, as always my dude! :-) Really enjoying your content lately, even if I don't comment all the time. You're on the best channels out there dude, keep it up! :-)

[@pheugo3664]

Absolutely brilliant rundown of the technical specifications and differences from each system presented in a top shelf way. I can see this 8 bit war series becoming a major part of video gaming history. Thanks for making this.

[@aqualung2000]

Really well-done analysis. Most people don't understand the significance of what having multiple waveforms provides. ADSR only gets you so far if all your sound chip can produce is square waves....but OTOH you also showed a game that did pretty well with it! You've done your research here and so produced a great video! Thanks!

[@MSMCanada]

Excellent quality video, once again!

[@iespostavid]

Another example of great music using just the TIA would be 7800 Food Fight “Let’s see that again!” instant replay song. Great sound on the harsh TIA comes from musicians who understand the limitations of this noise generator - I say noise generator as it was not designed to make music. There are lots of horrible TIA sound in games probably due to the lack of ROM given for sound and music use, and by programmers who had no musical ability or knowledge of what the TIA has and/or lacks.

[@Lightblue2222]

And what about Jinks. It uses a sound sample loop for music in the menu and actual voices in the intro, all with just the Tia. Although no one seems to know how it was done. It's a mystery!

[@Lightblue2222]

My fav TIA is Galaga 7800. It sounds so nostalgic to the actual arcade. The sound effects and the music. The end of bonus stage music even has the reverb from the arcade "hit 39 enemies or less on the bonus stage to hear it." Or search KZbin "the great sound of the atari 7800 galaga" and skip 40 seconds in.

[@Lightblue2222]

Motor Psycho 7800 has some nice rock title screen music. Has drum, bass, n' synth that sounds very guitar like. It's got heart. Cooler than Dark Chambers imo. Also Fatal Run! Wish they made some NTSC copies, and think it's just PAL.

[@MikeStavola]

I put an FM sound chip in my US master system, and found that the majority of the games I own are compatible with it. It's a major improvement.

[@DopamineSink]

If Nintendo didn't have developers on lockdown, and Sega had the FM sound generation from the start, the Master System may have overtaken the NES. People seem to forget that the Genesis was beating the SNES in America until late 1994.

[@joeb2588]

Other than myself, finally someone mentions Nintendo's monopoly in the 80's. I found the NES not much better than Colecovision. I thought the SMS was better all around. Glad I went with the Master System.

[@BIGGIEDEVIL]

Fuckin crazy nintendo IP's are far superior to everything sega has, nothing sega has or had can touch Mario brothers, zelda, metroid, to name a few

[@BlueDastPrint]

Devs probably would've stayed with NES, the SMS sales were not great in most places, and making a game for console with 61.9 million units sold vs a console with 10-13 million units sold is a better business decision.

[@BlueDastPrint]

@@joeb2588 Saying "NES not much better than Colecovision" is just VERY wrong. The SMS was has pros and cons to the NES, it isn't 100% more powerful, and a console power isn't everything, the games matter way more.

[@joeb2588]

@@BlueDastPrint i was looking and hoping a new game system would come out after the videogame crash and one did. It was the NES. I looked at it and wasn't impressed. A few months go by and I see on display at a local department store The Sega Master System. I really thought it was built better, looked cooler, and had better graphics. The light phaser had a microswitch trigger, not a capgun "click", the controllers were 8 way, not 4. The graphics and colors were better. The one thing the NES had was the monopoly of 3rd party developers.

[@dtester]

I agree with your winner. Funny thing is that as a kid I always thought the SMS had better music than the NES. I think this was because the Sega really good composers on average and I remember encountering a lot of NES games with subpar BGM. Too bad the SMS in NA didn't have the FM built in ^_^

[@patsfan4life]

How could execs at Atari think that the Pokey chip should be an ‘add-on’ in the cart as opposed to built into to console? That’s one of the craziest hardware decisions in the history of consoles.

[@Dingoplexor]

Atari was long done by that time n real gamers were either playing nes or sms by then

[@Lightblue2222]

@@Dingoplexor well.. 7800 actually sold more than Master System, at least where I'm at in the states. Believe it or not people here thought dpads were strange and expected systems to have joysticks. I was a Nintendo kid but adults like my parents made fun of its controller and said "where's the joystick?" I read an early review that praised Nintendo over the 7800 but hoped they'd make a controller like Atari soon since the dpad took some getting use to.. lol we all know today that dpads are alot better.. everyone got use to em quick. Atari had name recognition and a solid line up of arcade games "which finally actually looked and played like the arcade." Nintendo wiped the floor with large side scrolling action adventure platformers and more. Sega became popular during Genesis, where it even beat Atari's 64 bit Jag.

[@Dingoplexor]

@@Lightblue2222 yes I know all that u r saying! Atari only was convenient bcuz the games were dirt cheap. U r rite that sms didn’t have more than a cult following in the u.s. which was the mistake of their advertising bcuz the system was really good! I was fortunate to have owned both n.e.s. And sms. But sms came w a screw in mini joystick and nes had a clip on cover w three different joystick add one by a company called Bandai

[@Lightblue2222]

@@Dingoplexor that's cool. 7800 had those unscrewable joystick dpads too but only in Europe. I hear Sega pads are better anyway and its really nice they work on 2600/7800. One unique thing Atari offered was paddle controllers. Super Breakout on progressive mode is addictive. I know those are old 2600 games but my cartridge says 1988 as it was re-released for the 2600 jr / 7800. I never had Master System but I plan on getting a Power Base Converter for my Genesis someday. I tried lots of SMS with emulation and can tell it's an excellent system.

[@Dingoplexor]

@@Lightblue2222 yeah u r rite breakout/super breakout from my recollection were already out in the very early 80’s on the 2600. A buddy of mine had the sms when I had my nes which I had the nes deluxe at the time it had even R.O.B.the robot w it. He would bring the sms on weekends when he would stay over n I fell in love w the black belt game it was so addictive, n after I also likes the one Rambo game. Later I got into Shinobi. After burner. Hang on. Out run. Rocky. But truthfully I never had more than a handful of games for that system! It broke, n one day inside a flea market I bought the whole system w box for 15$ it was a steal! It’s harder to find their games than Nintendo bcuz sega refused to go to third party game manufacturers which was their original downfall. As u know nes had many outside development companies making their games as well as nes making a collection of their own classics I.e. mike Tyson’s punch out/super Mario bros! Sega made their huge splash w the release of the genesis. Also I found it crazy as well like u said how u can use sega controllers w Atari n vice versa! Happy gaming to u my friend 👍

[@patsfan4life]

Would have loved to have seen this amazing analysis with a c64 added to the mix (I know it’s not a console, but no other 80’s home PC could even come close to it , so it has to be compared to 80’s consoles...... maybe not a fair comparison due to the size of some ROM chips in NES carts though).... maybe an 8-bit PC comparison video is needed?

[@PlayerOneStart]

That is an idea I have considered. Maybe in the future 🤔

[@bmkretrogaming7634]

Nice video Tyler!

[@GODCONVOYPRIME]

Well, I'm glad I'm subscribed. Hell yeah.

[@maryetdave]

Very thorough review👍🏼

[@mrnuage]

You forgot to mention that NES "square waves" were actually "rectangle waves" meaning that while you couldn't ajust the duty cycles as finely as on the SID, you still had 3 presets to choose from (4 actually but 2 of them sound exactly the same to human ear): 12.5%, 25% or 50% (and 75% sounding the same as 25%). This is what allowed the variety not present on the master system's titles. In fact, a NES rectangle wave at 50% sounds just like a master system square wave, meaning you can easily emulate the SMS sound on NES (the only obstacle being you have to trade the SMS' third square wave for the NES' triangle wave) while the contrary is harder, especially on soundtrack that made heavy use of fast duty cycle modifications, in order to create new "instruments". The triangle wave can also go down to very low frequencies not attainable by the SMS chip. I'm not even talking about the luxury of being able to play samples along with the instruments.

[@OuTSMOKE]

1 video, 50 shirts. xD

[@BURRITO44]

Great Channel!!!

[@PlayerOneStart]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@RichardCraig]

We found Nintendrew's dad! 😅

[@matthewlane518]

Lol like father, like son😁 much respect to both

[@pheugo3664]

Going to be great

[@johneygd]

Well i wish you mentioned that you can also get 4bit pcm sound out of the stock 7800 by mixing those 2 channels together and then quickly alternate the volume of each,but that means that you can only use 1 channel,BUT in theory you might could use a costum mixing chip wich could mix 4 channels and then stream it digitally as 1 channel to the 7800 all withou using an external soundchip.

[@Sakruei]

subscribed

[@JetScreamer_YT]

Not sure how I missed this series?

[@jimivie]

Amazing the blunder of Atari not upgrading their sound chip for the 7800, you could argue that it put them out of business

[@KrunchyTheClown78]

GCC was making the gumbi chip for the 7800, but ran out of time.

[@KrunchyTheClown78]

The 7800 had a max resolution of 320 x 240. You could argue that it wasn't very useful for games, but homebrewers have been finding ways to make it more useful for games.

[@jpndpersonalchannel]

TIA CHIP USED WITH MUSIC: DONKEY KONG DONKEY KONG JR

[@Sinn0100]

I haven't watched the video yet; However, I would like to make my predictions on which machine is better. I started with both the Nes and Master System when they first hit the US market. As I suffer from medical disabilities my parents wanted me to have a hobby I liked and gaming was it. Having said this my pick for best built system easily goes to Sega. The Master System was at the time, the strongest 8-bit console to ever grace our shores. Depending on how you feel about the TG-16 the Master System remains the best 8-bit offering from any company of that era. Had Nintendo not been running an illegal monopoly Sega may have taken the market much earlier than they did. The games that sold for both machines showed very clearly who lead the market in graphics and sound. Unfortunately, those two things alone do not win console wars. The only thing the Nes did better than the Master System was the ability to pause games on the controllers. I can remember many a night where I'd be in a pitched battle and needing to pause my Master System only to hit the damn reset button instead...many 4 letter expletives were spewed out of my then 6-7 year old mouth. ;)

[@shaolin95]

Graphics Sega for sure Sounds..The NES. I hated the lack of bass on the sms Best overall... The Sega

[@southsidescroller3174]

Nice

[@TheSocialGamer]

It's too bad the the SMS in the USA didn't have available stereo FM sound like the Japanese SMS.

[@camulodunon]

I hate to break it to you, but the ym2413 is a mono chip.

[@jaredt2590]

Sega really didn't think through the psg when they designed the mark III/sms. It should have been a big leap over Nintendo's console like the graphical capabilities were.

[@Dingoplexor]

The other problem was them manufacturing all their own games

[@robnelms1418]

Who else feels that SEGA should have won the console war? Nintendo won solely due to advertising, I think. Actually, I remember when I was a kid, not wanting the Sega Master system solely due to the controller.

[@ribenasquash]

Atari were so cheap not to include the Pokey chip. They just didn't spec their consoles high enough after the 2600. If they did they would have done quite well I feel.

[@PlayerOneStart]

Yeah, it really hurt them in the long run. Thanks for watching!

[@TheBrettAbides]

I'm surprised that you thought so highly of the graphics on the 7800, considering that the NES version of Galaga is arcade perfect compared to the 7800. But I do feel like the SMS had the best graphics overall.

[@KrunchyTheClown78]

There weren't really any games that actually pushed the 7800's graphics hardware. Only a tiny handful did anything to show what the 7800 could do. From what I've seen from homebrew programmers, the 7800 could absolutely rival (and perhaps surpass) the Master System in graphics when truly pushed.

[@vinisasso]

Well...I think you underestimated Sega sound on this one. You know japanese version had an FM chip, and it sounded amazing. The samples could be handled by the PSG but still it interrupted the FM playback, anyway it kicked asses. Alex Kid and the Lost Stars made use of the FM chip, still played back samples (using it's PSG channels): kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5vGc2WkeMiFha8

[@TheFred128]

Game boy color is more powerfull than NES and sms, right? Shantae graphics is amazing. Sorry for my english...

[@MagoMakes]

Lost me when I realised you were only considering 3 of a wide range. And no C64? Dude...

[@jcaseyjones2829]

Mind-blowing that people even put the 7800 in the same generation. Just look at those graphics! I'm sorry, my dudes, big bad Nintendo and their unfair monopolistic practices probably HELPED 7800 in the long run, because True Believers are still convinced it could have competed.

[@KrunchyTheClown78]

Just for those of you who doubts the 7800 could have competed.

[@intel386DX]

just look NES titles and compate the graphics and sound to other trash - night and day SUNSSOFT CAPCOM KONAMI TECMO best music and graphics!

[@brasilbolsonarista]

#222 👍

[@CEEPMDEE]

Nintendo wins across the board no matter what.